[Discussion] Nonbinary makes no sense??

Onii Chan

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I'ma ask you a simple question.

Do you agree that there are behaviors that we associate with males and females, but are not determined by their biology?
Nope, males and females are completely different bud, if you dated one you'd know that. The way we act is very much determined by everything inside us, scientifically females are more emotional while men are not. Nothing is determined by culture besides on how we dress, its determined by our chromosomes, DNA, etc. This is why people make fun of you types, you're for gay rights and believe that being gay isn't a choice yet you're here spitting retarded shit like culture determines everything which is called hypocritical irony. There is only two possible outcomes, X or XY, its science, medical science, and over all common sense that you get taught in elementary school. You can't change this, you simply cannot, its not a debate, its logical. You cant argue that a turkey sandwich has turkey on it can you? Even your own said there was only 2 genders back in the day before communist liberalism.

 

kimb

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physiology refers to sexual characteristics.

Gender is exclusively social conditioned contracts reinforced throughout the years based on cultures and religion.

correlation is not causation
How did you even come to assert the positive claim that gender is exclusively socially conditioned? The field of neuroscience supports the existence of sexual dimorphism in structure and function of human brains, supporting an objective basis for gender. I'd agree that social conditioning does play a role in reinforcing gender, but that's not enough evidence to then say "gender is exclusively socially conditioned". You would have to go through and eliminate every possible substantial theory purposed to answer the question of gender, and debunk every single one or prove that social conditioning is the only thing that influences gender to claim gender is "exclusively" socially conditioned.




Btw, pointing out "correlation is not causation", is not an argument. When I point out a correlation, I'm making an empirical statement. The nature of scientific discoveries don't always come down to causation, but correlation through statistical/empirical evidence. A counter argument to someone pointing out correlation could be something like, "the margin for error is too large as there are far too many possible variables and factors between *** and gender that render the correlation unsubstantial".

Pointing out "correlation is not causation" to a correlation claim is akin to pointing out "averages aren't 100% accurate" in response to a generalizing claim, as if the fact that averages aren't 100% true debunks the truth of the average. Thank you, captain obvious.
 

Aim64C

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No one is replacing *** with gender, people are distinguishing them. Hell, in two sentences right before your strawman, YOU distinguish between *** and gender, and continue to do so within this post. That is non-binary.
You are trying to insist that there is some way that people can relate to each other aside from those of male and female. There is not.

I'll address down below, since you're just making the same point in the second next quote.
Some people require repetition in order to understand things. In your case, a baseball bat is a required supplement.

Gender is not independent on *** because *** is biological and gender is socially and psychologically derived. *** is fixed, and cannot be changed. Gender is not, and can change with time and choice.
Incorrect. Gender is underwritten by ***. The problem is that "non-binary" people believe that women can, somehow, be something other than a woman. Or that men can, somehow, be something other than men. There is no major difference between a lesbian and a normal woman. Nothing so great as to require a completely different understanding of the person.

Every lesbian who I've had as a friend ultimately developed weird-romantic-ish feelings for me... why? Because I treated them like the women they were, as a man should treat women. They aren't "one of the dudes" - and I never talked to them as though they were. The reason they were lesbians came from a multitude of factors - but ultimately come down to an insecurity around men. The role of men as it relates to women is to provide security/support at its most fundamental level. Make problems for women go away, and they generally want you to stick around.

The way women relate to other women, the way men relate to other men - there isn't such a thing as non-binary. Not every interaction between men and women has to do with sexual preference.

This is where you are getting confused. *** is not about the ACT of ***. The way I treat a woman isn't necessarily because I do or don't want to put my dick in her, to put it bluntly. Gender is not about the ACT of choosing a mate. It is about how the sexes relate to each other and will vary somewhat by culture, but have very strong trends across cultures BECAUSE it is underwritten by ***.

Hence, the "Hyper-sexualization" of society. By making gender about the ACT of ***, and trying to insist that a man's decision to take it up the butt somehow changes how his biology impacts his thoughts and relation towards others... is just absurd, which is what you are doing - that a man can somehow choose to be some other gender by his preferential act of ***, thereby changing how his physiology works and how he relates to other people.

The only people who really have much of an argument, there, are those who go through the extremes of hormone replacement therapies and the like... but even then, it's only a tiny slice of an argument. If I were to castrate myself and try to pump my body full of estrogen, it isn't likely to change the distinctions of my neurology and other aspects that make me male. I would just get more cutaneous fat and my muscle mass would change composition, to some degree.

Likewise with a woman who tries to pump testosterone in order to become more masculine. It will change some things, but in most of the ways that count, she's still going to think and act like a woman. The genuine cases where this is not the case are extremely rare, and are often the proverbial exceptions proving the rule.

Uhhh there is no pretending. In your example of "put a group of men in front of women and they'll start trying to impress her more than each other," that only works for straight men. There are people, such as gay men, asexual men, or even something as simple as men in a relationship that would betray your example.
There is no research to support this, however, what research is there suggests it is a physiological response.



(study on birds - this is animal-wide).

If you have any kind of data to suggest that homosexual men differ in this category, then it would be interesting to review.

Your example is also fucked on the fact that different genders can have the same effect depending on the man. For example, one man will see a feminine woman, and that gets him going. Another will see a masculine woman, and that will get him going, while they would have no interest if they switched places.
This is not what the research shows. Testosterone levels generally increase in men when they come into the presence of a woman. While there are likely 'grades' of response, the notion that the choice to be homosexual is going to alter men's physiological response ....

Wait... is it a choice? Now, suddenly, homosexuality is a choice. Gender is a choice. It is this fluid thing that we can swing through like monkeys in the tree.

This is why *** is associated with gender, but also independent. Not only will you find people of the same *** and different gender, but different combinations of *** and gender mean different things to people, and can be irrelevant to others.
Sorry, kiddo. If you've got boobs and a vagina, then you're a woman. If you've got boobs and a dick, you need to hit the gym. If you've got a wang between your legs, you're a man. The only "non-binary" position is someone who is neither man, nor woman, but insane and should be handled as someone who needs psychological and possibly medical care.

Even though the tom-boy may jump out there into the mud pit with the rest of the dudes - she's still a girl. She's going to bruise more easily, she's not going to have the same peak strength. Her bones are going to break easier, and her instincts will still look for someone to provide security for her. Exactly what that security means and what form it takes - that's the "spectrum."

Nope. It means that people can go "I am a man, but I want to act feminine." Or, "I am a woman, but I want to act masculine." Or, "I am a man, but I want to act masculine when I feel like acting masculine, and I want to act feminine when I feel like acting feminine." And anywhere in between. Non-binarism doesn't deny the concept of biological ***, or deny that a person is their biological ***, it just means a person's identity is not JUST their biological ***.
And here is where we are getting off in the world of insanity. Is a man choosing to be a hair-dresser a man who is choosing to act feminine? Is a man choosing to act feminine when he turns into "chatty cathy" with his friends?

Is a woman choosing to a "act masculine" when she goes to the gym? Is she choosing to "act masculine" when she tells her room mate to shut up so she can focus on her studies?

The things we choose to do are not inherently masculine or feminine, even if the things we choose to do pattern according to our ***. However, we are always doing those things as men or as women, and in a world where there are other men and women present. This idea that we need to label actions/choices as masculine feminine and then identify people as a unique gender because of what things they choose to be more masculine/feminine about .... and when.... is just absurd.

It's creating much to-do over nothing.

Which is precisely what your kind love to do.
 

Punk Hazard

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You are trying to insist that there is some way that people can relate to each other aside from those of male and female. There is not.
Right, because all other demographics have ceased to exist. I can also just copy and paste the list of situations I listed before in this thread where the *** of the individuals involved has no impact unless one person is trying to get with the other.


Incorrect. Gender is underwritten by ***. The problem is that "non-binary" people believe that women can, somehow, be something other than a woman. Or that men can, somehow, be something other than men. There is no major difference between a lesbian and a normal woman. Nothing so great as to require a completely different understanding of the person.
Multiple wrong points here:

1. The argument that non-binary solely applies to "Men who can be women" and "women can be men" is inaccurate

2. That non-binary is somehow fully encompassed as a concept by lesbians.

Every lesbian who I've had as a friend ultimately developed weird-romantic-ish feelings for me... why? Because I treated them like the women they were, as a man should treat women. They aren't "one of the dudes" - and I never talked to them as though they were. The reason they were lesbians came from a multitude of factors - but ultimately come down to an insecurity around men. The role of men as it relates to women is to provide security/support at its most fundamental level. Make problems for women go away, and they generally want you to stick around.
Wow, an extremely anecdotal argument with no possibility of verification? You're really busting out the scholarly debates now.

The way women relate to other women, the way men relate to other men - there isn't such a thing as non-binary. Not every interaction between men and women has to do with sexual preference.
Like I said in the first part of your post, your argument is rendered null by the fact that there are several demographics(including religion, economic status, race, nationality, education, occupation, political/moral alignments and even status as a species) that create relations between people that form a connection of common ground without *** involved.

which is what you are doing - that a man can somehow choose to be some other gender by his preferential act of ***, thereby changing how his physiology works and how he relates to other people.
Nope. In fact, I've said before in this thread that the issues of gender isn't tied to who you want to have *** with. I've given multiple examples of concepts related to gender that have nothing to do with sexual orientation. Nice strawman.

The only people who really have much of an argument, there, are those who go through the extremes of hormone replacement therapies and the like... but even then, it's only a tiny slice of an argument. If I were to castrate myself and try to pump my body full of estrogen, it isn't likely to change the distinctions of my neurology and other aspects that make me male. I would just get more cutaneous fat and my muscle mass would change composition, to some degree.

Likewise with a woman who tries to pump testosterone in order to become more masculine. It will change some things, but in most of the ways that count, she's still going to think and act like a woman.
Not only do you defend transsexualism here by making a distinction between physical features and the psychological state of a person, but I already said the same earlier.

There is no research to support this, however, what research is there suggests it is a physiological response.



(study on birds - this is animal-wide).

If you have any kind of data to suggest that homosexual men differ in this category, then it would be interesting to review.
You mean like this study on women that showed that their bodies responded physiologically to stimuli against their sexuality, including straight women who were shown lesbian porn? It's also funny that you mention that being as masculine as you want as a lesbian won't change your neurotypical and physiological responses, yet masculine lesbians had physiological responses more similar to men than they did to non-lesbian women.



This is not what the research shows. Testosterone levels generally increase in men when they come into the presence of a woman. While there are likely 'grades' of response, the notion that the choice to be homosexual is going to alter men's physiological response ....

Wait... is it a choice? Now, suddenly, homosexuality is a choice. Gender is a choice. It is this fluid thing that we can swing through like monkeys in the tree.
Not once did I even imply that homosexuality is a choice, so not sure where this straw man is even based from.

Sorry, kiddo. If you've got boobs and a vagina, then you're a woman. If you've got boobs and a dick, you need to hit the gym. If you've got a wang between your legs, you're a man. The only "non-binary" position is someone who is neither man, nor woman, but insane and should be handled as someone who needs psychological and possibly medical care.
This isn't even what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the fact that you can have masculine straight women, and feminine lesbians. Or straight men who wear dresses, and gay men who wear solely masculine clothing. Also the fact that some straight men will be attracted to feminine women, and straight men who are attracted to masculine women.

And here is where we are getting off in the world of insanity. Is a man choosing to be a hair-dresser a man who is choosing to act feminine? Is a man choosing to act feminine when he turns into "chatty cathy" with his friends?

Is a woman choosing to a "act masculine" when she goes to the gym? Is she choosing to "act masculine" when she tells her room mate to shut up so she can focus on her studies?
It's extremely funny you mention these things because there was once a time when it was considered the societal norm for hairdressing and gossip to be "feminine," while working out and being abrasive/non-timid were "masculine." You know why you're using them as examples of neutral behavior now? Because as time changed, so did the consideration of these things in respect to gender.

The things we choose to do are not inherently masculine or feminine, even if the things we choose to do pattern according to our ***. However, we are always doing those things as men or as women, and in a world where there are other men and women present. This idea that we need to label actions/choices as masculine feminine and then identify people as a unique gender because of what things they choose to be more masculine/feminine about .... and when.... is just absurd.
Except non-binary people didn't start this. Binary people did when they decided that men have to do "men" things and women have to do "women" things. It's binary people that decided to identify things as masculine and feminine, and then teach their societies to follow this concept. You insisting against going out of our way to label everything as masculine and feminine is exactly the kind of thinking that created non-binary as a contrast to binary.


Its clear Riker has conceded. The bullshit coming out of his fat fingers is laughable at best.
You gonna contribute intelligent discussion, or you're gonna continue with any ad hominem you can think of that you think makes you cool on the anime forum?
 

Punk Hazard

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Nope, males and females are completely different bud, if you dated one you'd know that. The way we act is very much determined by everything inside us, scientifically females are more emotional while men are not. Nothing is determined by culture besides on how we dress, its determined by our chromosomes, DNA, etc. This is why people make fun of you types, you're for gay rights and believe that being gay isn't a choice yet you're here spitting retarded shit like culture determines everything which is called hypocritical irony. There is only two possible outcomes, X or XY, its science, medical science, and over all common sense that you get taught in elementary school. You can't change this, you simply cannot, its not a debate, its logical. You cant argue that a turkey sandwich has turkey on it can you? Even your own said there was only 2 genders back in the day before communist liberalism.

So you believe that behaviors that are deemed "masculine," like playing sports, being aggressive, and wearing pants are in the DNA of men? Explains why there are no timid men with no interest in sports since our DNA forces every man to only be masculine in real life /s
 

Onii Chan

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So you believe that behaviors that are deemed "masculine," like playing sports, being aggressive, and wearing pants are in the DNA of men? Explains why there are no timid men with no interest in sports since our DNA forces every man to only be masculine in real life /s
I never said anything about hobbies ding ding, also if you're a man and you dont wear pants then you're a faggot, period, end of story.
 

Onii Chan

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Just because you decided to avoid addressing it because it defeats your argument doesn't mean it's not still a part of the argument.
What? look, this topic isn't complex at all. If you have a cock you're a man, if you have a vagina you're a girl. How hard is that to understand? Please tell me, i'm actually curious.

What's a faggot?
one transgender
 

Punk Hazard

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What? look, this topic isn't complex at all. If you have a cock you're a man, if you have a vagina you're a girl. How hard is that to understand? Please tell me, i'm actually curious.



one transgender
No, child. I'M asking YOU about the hobbies. Do you or do you not believe that people do things that are associated with their ***, but aren't FORCED to do it by their biology. Simple yes or no question.
 

Aim64C

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Right, because all other demographics have ceased to exist. I can also just copy and paste the list of situations I listed before in this thread where the *** of the individuals involved has no impact unless one person is trying to get with the other.
*** underwrites Gender. Gender underwrites every social scenario and context. Men have a certain standing as it relates to other men, and a standing as it relates to women. Same as women as they relate to other women and to men. This exists as a subtext within virtually every interaction between people. Not every situation is sexual, and not every action is an expression of ***/gender, but it is a context within the background.



Multiple wrong points here:

1. The argument that non-binary solely applies to "Men who can be women" and "women can be men" is inaccurate
I am a dragon.

2. That non-binary is somehow fully encompassed as a concept by lesbians.
See dragon.


Wow, an extremely anecdotal argument with no possibility of verification? You're really busting out the scholarly debates now.
*yawn* Now you want to insist that every debate must be a scholarly one.

Like I said in the first part of your post, your argument is rendered null by the fact that there are several demographics(including religion, economic status, race, nationality, education, occupation, political/moral alignments and even status as a species) that create relations between people that form a connection of common ground without *** involved.
*** is always involved, even if it isn't the primary driver or motivator. The internet is as close as we come to a sexless society - and even then, only on the chans. There are no girls on the internet, and if you claim to be a girl it is because you want the special attention typically reserved to women; so you are a ***** and must show your tits to complete the act... or get the **** out.

This is why the default persona of people on the internet is a masculine one.

Nope. In fact, I've said before in this thread that the issues of gender isn't tied to who you want to have *** with. I've given multiple examples of concepts related to gender that have nothing to do with sexual orientation. Nice strawman.
No, no you have not.

Not only do you defend transsexualism here by making a distinction between physical features and the psychological state of a person, but I already said the same earlier.
This is where you must learn to read.

You mean like this study on women that showed that their bodies responded physiologically to stimuli against their sexuality, including straight women who were shown lesbian porn? It's also funny that you mention that being as masculine as you want as a lesbian won't change your neurotypical and physiological responses, yet masculine lesbians had physiological responses more similar to men than they did to non-lesbian women.
And non-homosexual men can get erections when seeing other men naked. The general pattern is that people become sexually aroused when sexual themes become present - whether "aligned with their sexuality" or not. This is perfectly normal.

How short your memory is, as well. I have discussed, extensively, the discoveries with regard to neural plasticity, but once again, we are back to the problem of "Masculine lesbians are not men." Simply because they have physiological responses more typical to men when seeing lesbian porn doesn't mean they are more neurologically similar to men in their patterns of life and responses to non-sexual scenarios.

Men and women are different in their approach to solving problems. I know a couple that is in a sort of homo-asexual relationship-ish type of thing. There is a reason we have formed a sort of family with each other. I provide the masculine approach to problem solving that they have difficulty following through on. The natural course of problem solving for women is to talk about a problem, discuss it, express it... etc - and the natural course for men solving a problem is to knuckle down and do what needs to be done to fix the problem. No matter how masculine one of them tries to be - she's not. She's a woman. A woman who may have some traits she shares more closely with men, but her sexual orientation is a result of an abusive upbringing and difficulty finding men appealing because of it. Her selection of social intimates was largely toxic to her life and those males she would take as social intimates were of the caliber I would see eating with the animals - which is precisely why the orientation was reinforced and considered a part of her identity.

But as it stands, the relationship almost borderlines on polygamous, as the two treat me as something closer to a work-away-from-home husband than a mere friend. We even kind of joke that I am secretly building a harem.

Which... considering the quality of men out there, these days, I don't blame them. The schools and society have set men (and women) up to fail, miserably as barbarians pound at the walls. All by design, mind you. I know who set it up to play out this way, and even those I see fit to eat with animals are still to be taught and eventually returned to the house. The barbarians, however, must not be allowed on the estate, as their numbers are bolstered by rape.

There is a simple truth beneath the facade of 'high society.' Women have wombs and eggs. Men have sperm and the physical strength over women. If good men are not willing to use force to impose order, then the savages can and will overwhelm society.

Not once did I even imply that homosexuality is a choice, so not sure where this straw man is even based from.
Your own words in the very quote I used. Gender is a choice, in your own words. Now you are going to suggest that ***, sexual orientation, and gender are all three different things that have little or no relation to each other... because we must continually move the goal posts.

This isn't even what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the fact that you can have masculine straight women, and feminine lesbians. Or straight men who wear dresses, and gay men who wear solely masculine clothing. Also the fact that some straight men will be attracted to feminine women, and straight men who are attracted to masculine women.
So, what you are saying is that "Gender" is about sexual attraction and that it amounts to attempting to endlessly categorize the minutia of one's fetishes or lack thereof.

The goal posts just keep moving. You keep insisting you know what you are talking about and what you are saying this "non-binary" is... but the reality is rather simple. It's a pointless concept used to try and assert that you are 'more enlightened' than others. It does nothing unique or new - and is worse than what came before it. It's an attempt at re-writing history by setting in place a straw man of "old views" which must be replaced by 'better' 'new views' built around the endless categorizing of social minutia and labeling. Part of that deliberate plan to destroy things. Which fits in well with your profile symbolism.

It's extremely funny you mention these things because there was once a time when it was considered the societal norm for hairdressing and gossip to be "feminine," while working out and being abrasive/non-timid were "masculine." You know why you're using them as examples of neutral behavior now? Because as time changed, so did the consideration of these things in respect to gender.
Nope. It's only been relatively recently, since around the 60s, that women began to take over hair styling and barber shops as a profession. There's a bit more to it than that, since "hair styling" could be said to originate back in the chambers of royalty/nobility and the maids which tended to the luxuries of such individuals - but as a general profession, men dominated barber shops for a very long time before women began to truly make inroads and take over the industry as a general service.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Except non-binary people didn't start this. Binary people did when they decided that men have to do "men" things and women have to do "women" things. It's binary people that decided to identify things as masculine and feminine, and then teach their societies to follow this concept. You insisting against going out of our way to label everything as masculine and feminine is exactly the kind of thinking that created non-binary as a contrast to binary.
You're trying to create things that don't exist. You are a male or you are a female. The exceptions to this are extremely rare. Because this underwrites massive portions of your neurology and physiology, it underwrites how you relate to people. If you are a woman and there is a man present, you are a potential vessel for 'his seed.' If you get into an elevator with him, alone - or venture into the woods with him... whatever - it doesn't matter whether you're a lesbian or think you're an attack helicopter... he has the physical strength over you to put his wang in your cooter and make a baby happen.

That is always in the background of the relationship between men and women. It is why women tend to avoid being alone with men they do not trust. It is why men tend to be territorial with regard to women. It is why we are aggressive toward other men. It is why women tend to group together and why they tend to be suspicious of men who approach them. The relationship between men and women isn't just about how they should treat each other or how they tend to respond better to each other - it is also the basic implications of their biology. Men have the physical size and strength over women and can impose the conditions for reproduction when strictly speaking one man and one woman in the same vicinity. This is a sort of Sword of Damocles hanging over our society and its thin veneer of civility.

*** underwrites a great deal about our interactions with others - our gender - because it has very real and undeniable consequences that can't be wished away.

You gonna contribute intelligent discussion, or you're gonna continue with any ad hominem you can think of that you think makes you cool on the anime forum?
I am not constrained to a single vector of attack. Watching you satanic lot try and keep up with me and what I'm doing is entirely amusing. We both know this is no anime forum... however, what is really interesting is that you've yet to grasp what it is I am.

Which is entirely ironic, considering another group I know to follow the Path of Venus pegged me immediately because of my intricate understanding of the sacred relationship between men and women.
 

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It's a mental disorder. Humans are born as either male or female, so identifying as being neither (or being any form of trans anyways) is a literal retardation. Well, it's either that or they are sexual deviants.
 
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So you believe that behaviors that are deemed "masculine," like playing sports, being aggressive, and wearing pants are in the DNA of men? Explains why there are no timid men with no interest in sports since our DNA forces every man to only be masculine in real life /s
Playing sports is masculine indeed as physical activities are something men are better at and more geared towards due to being stronger, faster, more durable, and having higher stamina. FFS, a team of under-15 boys beat "professional" woman's team, and you want to argue sports isn't masculine? Men being more aggressive than women is also a fact and ties into their biology. They are meant to be more aggressive and confrontational in order to protect the weaker wife and children.


 
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