NB Team Debate League round 3: Team sussan'o vs Disciples of Toonami
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Prince Charles
Kage in the Making π
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Frikid if your still up for it, will you be able to post a counter to blazes argument?
Blaze Release
Kage in the Making π
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Appears some of my cut out images aren't 'working anymore or to my liking.
If it continues ill have to edit the images and try again
Hope he does. Lazy, but still had to do my bit. Would be a shame if he didn't counter.
If it continues ill have to edit the images and try again
Hope he does. Lazy, but still had to do my bit. Would be a shame if he didn't counter.
Prince Charles
Kage in the Making π
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If by tomorrow Frikid doesnt post a counter then this match is closed for judging.
Frikid
Sannin of the Scrolls π
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IMPORTANT NOTE :
this is the argument i typed right after i made my post so this was before Blaze posted his argument.
I haven't read his argument but looks like he did a good job from the way it looks.
I will be editting this post and countering blaze's argument + my own arguments.
One of the best techniques naruto have is kage bunshin and naruto have shown to take full advantage of it even in part 1 (against kimmimaro) so there is absolutely no reason, why he wont use it against sasuke.
Naruto is one of those ninjas who excel at close range fights due to his technique like rasengan and its variations.
If anything which can completely overwhelm sasuke's full susano, then its an all out attack of odada rasengan which was used against the kyuubi.
Also, naruto can just jump above that little wall of amaterasu which kabuto couldn't due to the location they were at.
i can't see the page with madara .
Everyone knows Attacking sasuke with just one FRS isn't going to be enough unless he has his susano off.
The best option is to go for more than one FRS which sasuke's susano cannot take on.
1. It can't take more than one FRS.
2. This is EMS Sasuke feat. This was a combination attack and both of them had to put in equal ratio of chakra, which is why it combined together, otherwise it would have exploded.
3. I like this. Too bad it would just cut the snakes in half as FRS specializes in cutting (refer to what tsunade explained about FRS) and sasuke would still have to take the hit.
4. If sasuke's susano is not activated, Naruto can just send few of his clones to engage him in taijutsu and throw FRS at that time which would sacrifice naruto's shadow clone but defeat/kill sasuke.
And you are countering all of the mentioned as if they were going to be used one by one. You should count the fact that all of these techniques whether it be rasengan barrage, odada rasengan barrage , FRS etc etc can be used simultaneously and sasuke cannot take it on when everything is thrown at him at same time.
If naruto runs out of sage chakra?
First of all, then it wont be SM naruto vs MS sasuke.
Secondly, Sasuke should be the one to worry about chakra since it takes him more chakra to use MS techs and it takes a lot of toll on his body while naruto can just spam clones and make them go in SM (by taking safety measures ofcourse) and he would be basically free loading on chakra.
Also, Sasuke wont be able to set up this kirin to one shot naruto and here is why :
1. Naruto is constantly attacking sasuke and fighting with sasuke. Sasuke might not have enough chakra to use set up kirin as it would have got used in fighting against naruto.
2. Naruto won't let sasuke hop on his hawk and let him use kirin. He have summoning like gamabunta which can do some high jumps and easily reach sasuke before he manages to get enough height from him .
We don't know how fast/slow is sasuke on his hawk so i will just abuse this and openly say naruto can hit sasuke with FRS as it can just expand and sasuke hasn't shown any speed feats on his hawk with which he can dodge it.
He would be just as vulnerable on his hawk as Sai was on his ink bird.
3. WIND > LIGHTNING
FRS > KIRIN
4. Since sasuke need to set up a rain to use kirin, it wont be really easy for him to fly on his hawk while its raining, due to obvious reasons. And the fact that naruto wont be sitting while sasuke flies on his hawk (Sasuke has to dodge FRS thrown at him while his hawk speed is decreased due to rain) , if sasuke use this or even thinks about using kirin, he is more vulnerable to attacks and is as good as dead .
By that being said, your only way of sasuke defeating/killing naruto has been countered.
You didn't cover a lot of stuff, i expected more from you ...
Rasengan barrage covers more area and have more destructive power if compared to a single FRS.
Inferior to kirin? Nope.
Sasuke takes a lot of time and chakra to produce it. It is a one time technique.
It has been used in manga only once and it failed hard. FRS has the elemental advantage.
Theoretically, it was more of an ass-pull technique just like izanami which was only suitable in that particular situation.
Also, Naruto wont be coming at him from one direction, he would surround him entirely , full 360 degree. Sasuke cant kill all the clones if they are coming at him from all the directions.
- Sasuke needs to deactivate his susano to have access to high speed movements and hence create a amaterasu wall.
This will make him more vulnerable to naruto's attacks. the Amaterasu wall doesn't produce so huge flames and one can simply hop over them and reach the target.
@bold : you automatically assumed rasengan barrage to be weaker than FRS and that FRS is weaker than kirin, this is purely assumption and you haven't provided any manga page which suggests rasengan barrage < FRS and kirin > FRS.
Naruto really doesn't have to destroy the full susano to reach to sasuke.
Even gaara's mere sand broke through madara's susano and sand don't have as much destructive power as kirin or FRS .
Gaara basically exploited madara's susano's weak point and got his sand into his susano. Naruto can do the same thing. He can go and attack his rasengan barrage at one weak point of susano and it would be enough to get to sasuke.
There is yet another way to get to sasuke without breaking the susano which i will explain later.
Sasuke has also shown to literally cough blood which suggests it takes a lot of toll on his body whenever he uses MS techniques. These little drawbacks can be match deciding factors since naruto would use this situation to his advantage.The moment sasuke stumbles, that is the time when naruto would go all out and wont give him to stand back up at all.
Also, as i mentioned earlier, sasuke is the one who you should be worried about in terms of chakra and not naruto.
You are assuming that naruto will only use one SM clone in his battle, he can make multiple shadow clones and make them go into SM. Basically he has a way to obtain free chakra unlike sasuke who is limited to his own chakra and on top of that, whenever he will use his MS, it will not just suck him dry out of his chakra , it also takes a lot of toll on his body( He was literally coughing blood).
Also, they will only be summoned when they are needed. Its not like naruto would like to put them in danger when he doesn't really need to .
i think i have covered this in my previous statements.
Why are you making up your own arguments and then countering them by yourself? This is such a waste of time and stupid as well .
"If you said , then i said so. " ... BS
Everyone have there own way of making an approach to a given situation so you cannot assume how we are going to make an approach to the situation yourself and then counter it yourself.
You are only supposed to counter what he said and/or come up with something of your own. If you want to debate with yourself then do it somewhere else.
You claim that raikage had no knowledge of amaterasu but Even fodders which were disciples of raikage had knowledge about amaterasu. I doubt raikage wont have knowledge of something when his own disciples have full knowledge of it.
He isn't called a raikage for nothing.
I don't think i have to say any more then that since the "base" of your argument was false/misconception.
The main problem in this argument is you are assuming that naruto would be alone when sasuke uses amaterasu.
As naruto said :
Now whenever sasuke even tries to aim amaterasu , we should keep these things in mind :
Naruto would be aware of sasuke using amaterasu since he have Intel on amaterasu , SM provides him speed + perceptional ability and that whenever MS sasuke uses amaterasu, he has to concentrate on a target which leaves him open to an attack from other directions.
Naruto has multiple ways of countering amaterasu.
Naruto can create multiple bunshins which would confuse sasuke in deciding which one is real. Secondly, even if he figures out which one is real(highly unlikely), those bunshins can block his direct contact with real naruto and protect him from amaterasu.
Then again, it isn't good for sasuke to use amaterasu against naruto as we have seen whenever he focus his eyes to use amaterasu on someone, he is open to attacks and this gives very good opportunity to naruto to do a sneak attack (regardless of whether susano is activated or not) while sasuke is concentrating his "amaterasu" on some other bunshins.
In short :
Speed alone isn't the only counter to amaterasu. Naruto can use multiple bunshins to avoid direct contact with sasuke's eyes.
This is a very funny argument you have made since it is more of a disadvantgae to you then advantage.
You are saying if FRS is thrown at sasuke, he will merely use amaterasu on it which will entirely consume FRS and make it a "flying amaterasu shuriken" .
Now this is where you fail. While i agree from the above statement i made, the only problem is that sasuke cannot change the direction of FRS . If naruto throws FRS at him and sasuke uses amaterasu on it, it will only be fuel to FRS and make it stronger, while the direction of FRS remains the same and it will bump on sasuke himself.
So rather than tanking a FRS coming at him, he has to tank a amaterasu infused FRS which was strong enough to harm the juubi. Obviously sasuke would take a lot of damage from it and it is basically a free win for naruto.
Even when baku was using wind suction, when sasuke combined it with katon, the katon went to the direction the wind was going.Same logic applies here. Naruto throws FRS --> sasuke uses amaterasu on it --> direction of now amaterasu infused FRS , remains the same -- > sasuke takes the hit.
This argument was a big mistake from your side.
While i agree, SM naruto don't have good enough speed feats to dodge susano arrows (at a close range) , it simply isn't necessary to dodge susano arrow.
Naruto can simply catch the arrow(he have shown good enough reaction speed to do so) as he has shown immense brute strength. (he tossed away a huge rhino which was one of nagato's summon as if it was a baseball bat)
Amaterasu infused arrow is a different story though. To counter such arrows, what naruto can do is create an odama rasengan who's size is as big as naruto himself and this can be used as a shield against those arrows which certainly doesn't have as much strength as a odama rasengan.
^ this counter can also be used against susano arrow.
Then we have multiple kage bunshins which would confuse sasuke since he cant tell which of them is real. Maybe sasuke can spam arrows but this is not shown in the manga.
Naruto can do whatever he wants to do and if he feels the need to use more than one summoning (like against pain's fight) he can do it and it will not make him go out of his character.
I like it how you use the genjutsu as an effective counter against his summoning, but we all know naruto can just simply disrupt his summoning's chakra and bring it out of genjutsu. This isn't itachi who we are talking about , its sasuke and we know sasuke's genjutsu is inferior to itachi's .Hence, it shouldn't be so hard to break sasuke's genjutsu.
I personally would not want to depend much on naruto's summoning though.
Well, "Pa" wanted to try and fuse with naruto so that naruto can gain access to unlimited SM chakra.
At that time, they were not aware of pain's invasion.
The point is, unless pa was thinking of travelling with naruto everywhere he goes, there was no way for Pa to use this fusion (besides summoning ofc)
So If we go by your assumption that naruto cannot summon ma and pa, it would be stupid of Pa to consider trying to learn fusion technique with naruto as naruto isn't skilled enough to summon "Pa" and they wont be able to execute this fusion as naruto woul never be able to summon pa since he is not skilled enough.
Obviously, this assumption of yours , that naruto isn't skilled enough to summon ma and pa is wrong since if it was true, Pa would never consider doing fusion technique with naruto.
So yeah, naruto can summon Ma and Pa.
Now, the next thing you said is the sound genjutsu thingy. Obviously Ma and Pa can perform it without the presence of naruto in the jutsu as shown in naruto vs pain fight . So this genjutsu would not fail if they manage to gather time for it.
It is not too far-fetched to think that naruto can indulge sasuke in battle by constantly spamming technques and not give him time to attack Ma & Pa . he can also assign few of his clones to protect them.
Once the sound genjutsu is successfully executed, it will completely paralyze sasuke, as sound genjutsu being one of his weakness(as seen in his fight with Kabuto) , it would not be too hard for naruto to kill a paralyzed sasuke .
Genjutsu can control ma and pa ??
You seem to contradict yourself right now. You were the one who clearly mentioned that ma and pa are superior in summons than the regular summons hence why they were distinctly mentioned in databook itself and were required to achieve a certain skill before getting summoned.
And then you claim that they can be controlled by genjutsu of sasuke who have never controlled anyone rather than random fodders and manda.
First of all, there is no where mentioned in the restrictions that sage mode can be used only once by naruto.
He can create multiple shadow clones and make them go into SM .
By that being said, losing SM due to excess of clones is not a problem for naruto since he can get SM back.
Kunai/shuriken spamming on shadow clones is also not a efficient counter since 100x shadow clones can produce more shuriken spamming than 1x sasuke and if this battle went out to a shuriken battle, 100x naruto shuriken spamming > 1x sasuke shuriken spamming and the only way to sasuke survive this, is susano.
Regarding the kyuubi argument,
This is all too far-fetched argument and non reliable either.
First of all, sasuke have never achieved something like that as you mentioned. Sasuke have only shown to suppress kyuubi chakra and lets keep it to that. Bringing out kyuubi chakra and making it take of naruto is another story.
If you use such arguments, i can also say , kyuubi will heal and protect naruto when he faces life threatening situations.
Also if we go by your argument , and if he somehow release kyuubi chakra (which is straight away too farfetched assumption and kind of impossible) , it is possible kyuubi goes berserk , say 8 tails and kills off sasuke just like that.
Clearly it wont be SM naruto vs MS sasuke anymore, and sasuke have more disadvantage at this situation as 8 tails naruto is much much much bigger threat than SM naruto.
It is stated in OP, the mindset of character is IC , so , sasuke unleashing kyuubi chakra from naruto just to counter shadow clones seems to be out of his character , as he have some better counters to kage bunshin which you failed to mention.
You also failed to show how exactly is sasuke going to determine which naruto is real among hundreds of naruto's clones , if sasuke cannot do that, he cannot unleash kyuubi's chakra and this method to defeat naruto bunshins fails.
and i have already covered your conclusion statement in above arguments.
Overall, you put up a great effort in countering my fellow partner's claims but you still didn't properly explain how MS sasuke wins this match and you made some unexpected foolish mistakes which i obviously took advantage of.
I expected more from you.
Well i was supposed to put my own arguments in this debate as well but i have to kinda go somewhere right now since its sunday, duh.
So i will finish this by putting my own arguments if i am allowed some time , if not, i ask shikamaru to put it for me since i already told him about it (if this is allowed), (he can even screenshot my PM and post it here)
Edit:
To start off my arguments, i want to clear some stuff.
1. Sasuke cannot see through shadow clones with MS.
It was stated in the manga that Byakugan > 3t Sharingan in terms of vision.
Also, we know that MS doesn't grant the user anything which makes it better than 3t sharingan (strictly talking about vision) but maybe EMS does. Unless you can show me anything which suggest MS is better then 3t in vision, this statement stands .
Now kid naruto was able to fool neji who have a superior vision (byakugan)than a MS user.
Basically byakugan have better vision then MS but maybe not EMS and even with that vision , he got fooled by a mere naruto clone, so basically a sharingan/byakugan which can only see chakra cannot differentiate between clones if done by an expert user like naruto .
This gives a good advantage to naruto since he can confuse sasuke with this ,make genjutsu useless and other things that i mentioned earlier.
Now comes my strategy on how naruto defeats sasuke .
I am planning to defeat quality(sasuke) by quantity{naruto) :
What naruto will do is basically create 1000 kage bunshins and send 100 of them underground.
Now he will let 20 of them go into SM . ( we don't how many kage bunshin can naruto make with SM so i will take it as 5 and other 15 as backup)
The remaining 80 would be going to an underground attack on sasuke .
I went for an underground assault because this is susano's weak point, susano protects the user from everywhere except underground (further proved when gaara used his sand against madara) .
And MS Sasuke's running speed decreases when his full susano is active which can be clearly observed here :
Sasuke with big susano :
Sasuke lowers down susano level to below level 1 for mobility :
So if we connect the dots and summarize it all :
Naruto sends around 100 clones underground which make attacks like amaterasu and tsukiyomi completely useless.
He gets to stay stationary at this situation and hence enter SM.
Naruto can use his SM to sense sasuke and pinpoint his location easily.
The other 900 clones surround sasuke from all the directions and are constantly attacking sasuke with various formations, (whether it be rasengan barrage,Odama rasengan barrage,FRS or whatever... ) forcing sasuke to keep his susano final form active at all times which will further deplete his chakra and also reduce his mobility hence making it easier to perform the underground assault by rougly 80 clones .
In this situation, sasuke is in a stalemate as
If he keep his susano active , he will not be able to move quickly and those 80 clones under his feet would get him.
i agree sasuke can hit his susano swords and stuff to break through underground but even then it is not possible for him to destroy 80 clones all at once especially when 900 clones are attacking him outside.
If he deactivates his susano to run from the clones which are coming at him from under the ground, those 900 clones at the top would get him .
With this tactic, there is no way for sasuke to escape his death.
This is a definite win from naruto.
And now imagine if naruto uses this tactic in conjunction with frog genjutsu which will further paralyze sasuke who has already hit a stalemate, this would become an overkill for sasuke.
I think with this strategy, naruto has also countered everything sasuke have, whether it be katon,raiton,kenjutsu,amaterasu,tsukiyomi or susano .
this is the argument i typed right after i made my post so this was before Blaze posted his argument.
I haven't read his argument but looks like he did a good job from the way it looks.
I will be editting this post and countering blaze's argument + my own arguments.
You are automatically assuming that naruto would alone go against sasuke which is a false assumption.
One of the best techniques naruto have is kage bunshin and naruto have shown to take full advantage of it even in part 1 (against kimmimaro) so there is absolutely no reason, why he wont use it against sasuke.
Naruto is one of those ninjas who excel at close range fights due to his technique like rasengan and its variations.
If anything which can completely overwhelm sasuke's full susano, then its an all out attack of odada rasengan which was used against the kyuubi.
EMS Sasuke feats can't be used for MS sasuke.
Also, naruto can just jump above that little wall of amaterasu which kabuto couldn't due to the location they were at.
i can't see the page with madara .
3 FRS for one SM clone naruto have. Naruto can create as many SM clones and spam FRS to his heart's content.
Everyone knows Attacking sasuke with just one FRS isn't going to be enough unless he has his susano off.
The best option is to go for more than one FRS which sasuke's susano cannot take on.
1. It can't take more than one FRS.
2. This is EMS Sasuke feat. This was a combination attack and both of them had to put in equal ratio of chakra, which is why it combined together, otherwise it would have exploded.
3. I like this. Too bad it would just cut the snakes in half as FRS specializes in cutting (refer to what tsunade explained about FRS) and sasuke would still have to take the hit.
4. If sasuke's susano is not activated, Naruto can just send few of his clones to engage him in taijutsu and throw FRS at that time which would sacrifice naruto's shadow clone but defeat/kill sasuke.
And you are countering all of the mentioned as if they were going to be used one by one. You should count the fact that all of these techniques whether it be rasengan barrage, odada rasengan barrage , FRS etc etc can be used simultaneously and sasuke cannot take it on when everything is thrown at him at same time.
If naruto runs out of sage chakra?
First of all, then it wont be SM naruto vs MS sasuke.
Secondly, Sasuke should be the one to worry about chakra since it takes him more chakra to use MS techs and it takes a lot of toll on his body while naruto can just spam clones and make them go in SM (by taking safety measures ofcourse) and he would be basically free loading on chakra.
Since naruto have full knowledge on sasuke, its assumed naruto have knowledge of kirin as well.
Also, Sasuke wont be able to set up this kirin to one shot naruto and here is why :
1. Naruto is constantly attacking sasuke and fighting with sasuke. Sasuke might not have enough chakra to use set up kirin as it would have got used in fighting against naruto.
2. Naruto won't let sasuke hop on his hawk and let him use kirin. He have summoning like gamabunta which can do some high jumps and easily reach sasuke before he manages to get enough height from him .
We don't know how fast/slow is sasuke on his hawk so i will just abuse this and openly say naruto can hit sasuke with FRS as it can just expand and sasuke hasn't shown any speed feats on his hawk with which he can dodge it.
He would be just as vulnerable on his hawk as Sai was on his ink bird.
3. WIND > LIGHTNING
FRS > KIRIN
4. Since sasuke need to set up a rain to use kirin, it wont be really easy for him to fly on his hawk while its raining, due to obvious reasons. And the fact that naruto wont be sitting while sasuke flies on his hawk (Sasuke has to dodge FRS thrown at him while his hawk speed is decreased due to rain) , if sasuke use this or even thinks about using kirin, he is more vulnerable to attacks and is as good as dead .
By that being said, your only way of sasuke defeating/killing naruto has been countered.
You didn't cover a lot of stuff, i expected more from you ...
Nope.
Rasengan barrage covers more area and have more destructive power if compared to a single FRS.
Inferior to kirin? Nope.
Sasuke takes a lot of time and chakra to produce it. It is a one time technique.
It has been used in manga only once and it failed hard. FRS has the elemental advantage.
Theoretically, it was more of an ass-pull technique just like izanami which was only suitable in that particular situation.
- Naruto isn't a fodder, he is not going to waste his clones just like that. If the clones are rushing at sasuke, they would be equipped with Odama rasengan, and the size of that ball is bigger to or equal to naruto himself, so if sasuke is aiming at naruto bunshins, he would have to hit the rasengan first since its active like a shield too , and once he do that , rasengan will explode on susano and the purpose of the assault will be fulfilled.
Also, Naruto wont be coming at him from one direction, he would surround him entirely , full 360 degree. Sasuke cant kill all the clones if they are coming at him from all the directions.
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- Sasuke needs to deactivate his susano to have access to high speed movements and hence create a amaterasu wall.
This will make him more vulnerable to naruto's attacks. the Amaterasu wall doesn't produce so huge flames and one can simply hop over them and reach the target.
@bold : you automatically assumed rasengan barrage to be weaker than FRS and that FRS is weaker than kirin, this is purely assumption and you haven't provided any manga page which suggests rasengan barrage < FRS and kirin > FRS.
Naruto really doesn't have to destroy the full susano to reach to sasuke.
Even gaara's mere sand broke through madara's susano and sand don't have as much destructive power as kirin or FRS .
Gaara basically exploited madara's susano's weak point and got his sand into his susano. Naruto can do the same thing. He can go and attack his rasengan barrage at one weak point of susano and it would be enough to get to sasuke.
There is yet another way to get to sasuke without breaking the susano which i will explain later.
@bold :In your manga page itself, obito stated it took a lot out of sasuke when he used amaterasu right after susano.
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Sasuke has also shown to literally cough blood which suggests it takes a lot of toll on his body whenever he uses MS techniques. These little drawbacks can be match deciding factors since naruto would use this situation to his advantage.The moment sasuke stumbles, that is the time when naruto would go all out and wont give him to stand back up at all.
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Also, as i mentioned earlier, sasuke is the one who you should be worried about in terms of chakra and not naruto.
You are assuming that naruto will only use one SM clone in his battle, he can make multiple shadow clones and make them go into SM. Basically he has a way to obtain free chakra unlike sasuke who is limited to his own chakra and on top of that, whenever he will use his MS, it will not just suck him dry out of his chakra , it also takes a lot of toll on his body( He was literally coughing blood).
There is no need for ma and pa to evade amaterasu, naruto can just protect them by bringing up his shadow clones in front of them.
Also, they will only be summoned when they are needed. Its not like naruto would like to put them in danger when he doesn't really need to .
i think i have covered this in my previous statements.
Why are you making up your own arguments and then countering them by yourself? This is such a waste of time and stupid as well .
"If you said , then i said so. " ... BS
Everyone have there own way of making an approach to a given situation so you cannot assume how we are going to make an approach to the situation yourself and then counter it yourself.
You are only supposed to counter what he said and/or come up with something of your own. If you want to debate with yourself then do it somewhere else.
You claim that raikage had no knowledge of amaterasu but Even fodders which were disciples of raikage had knowledge about amaterasu. I doubt raikage wont have knowledge of something when his own disciples have full knowledge of it.
He isn't called a raikage for nothing.
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I don't think i have to say any more then that since the "base" of your argument was false/misconception.
The main problem in this argument is you are assuming that naruto would be alone when sasuke uses amaterasu.
As naruto said :
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Now whenever sasuke even tries to aim amaterasu , we should keep these things in mind :
Naruto would be aware of sasuke using amaterasu since he have Intel on amaterasu , SM provides him speed + perceptional ability and that whenever MS sasuke uses amaterasu, he has to concentrate on a target which leaves him open to an attack from other directions.
Naruto has multiple ways of countering amaterasu.
Naruto can create multiple bunshins which would confuse sasuke in deciding which one is real. Secondly, even if he figures out which one is real(highly unlikely), those bunshins can block his direct contact with real naruto and protect him from amaterasu.
Then again, it isn't good for sasuke to use amaterasu against naruto as we have seen whenever he focus his eyes to use amaterasu on someone, he is open to attacks and this gives very good opportunity to naruto to do a sneak attack (regardless of whether susano is activated or not) while sasuke is concentrating his "amaterasu" on some other bunshins.
In short :
Speed alone isn't the only counter to amaterasu. Naruto can use multiple bunshins to avoid direct contact with sasuke's eyes.
This is a very funny argument you have made since it is more of a disadvantgae to you then advantage.
You are saying if FRS is thrown at sasuke, he will merely use amaterasu on it which will entirely consume FRS and make it a "flying amaterasu shuriken" .
Now this is where you fail. While i agree from the above statement i made, the only problem is that sasuke cannot change the direction of FRS . If naruto throws FRS at him and sasuke uses amaterasu on it, it will only be fuel to FRS and make it stronger, while the direction of FRS remains the same and it will bump on sasuke himself.
So rather than tanking a FRS coming at him, he has to tank a amaterasu infused FRS which was strong enough to harm the juubi. Obviously sasuke would take a lot of damage from it and it is basically a free win for naruto.
Even when baku was using wind suction, when sasuke combined it with katon, the katon went to the direction the wind was going.Same logic applies here. Naruto throws FRS --> sasuke uses amaterasu on it --> direction of now amaterasu infused FRS , remains the same -- > sasuke takes the hit.
This argument was a big mistake from your side.
While i agree, SM naruto don't have good enough speed feats to dodge susano arrows (at a close range) , it simply isn't necessary to dodge susano arrow.
Naruto can simply catch the arrow(he have shown good enough reaction speed to do so) as he has shown immense brute strength. (he tossed away a huge rhino which was one of nagato's summon as if it was a baseball bat)
Amaterasu infused arrow is a different story though. To counter such arrows, what naruto can do is create an odama rasengan who's size is as big as naruto himself and this can be used as a shield against those arrows which certainly doesn't have as much strength as a odama rasengan.
^ this counter can also be used against susano arrow.
Then we have multiple kage bunshins which would confuse sasuke since he cant tell which of them is real. Maybe sasuke can spam arrows but this is not shown in the manga.
It is indeed true that naruto generally does not depend on his summonings much but saying he can only use one summoning due to the restrictions is false. Naruto can use more than one summoning if he feels there is need to it.
Naruto can do whatever he wants to do and if he feels the need to use more than one summoning (like against pain's fight) he can do it and it will not make him go out of his character.
I like it how you use the genjutsu as an effective counter against his summoning, but we all know naruto can just simply disrupt his summoning's chakra and bring it out of genjutsu. This isn't itachi who we are talking about , its sasuke and we know sasuke's genjutsu is inferior to itachi's .Hence, it shouldn't be so hard to break sasuke's genjutsu.
I personally would not want to depend much on naruto's summoning though.
both the topics are covered in this.
Well, "Pa" wanted to try and fuse with naruto so that naruto can gain access to unlimited SM chakra.
At that time, they were not aware of pain's invasion.
The point is, unless pa was thinking of travelling with naruto everywhere he goes, there was no way for Pa to use this fusion (besides summoning ofc)
So If we go by your assumption that naruto cannot summon ma and pa, it would be stupid of Pa to consider trying to learn fusion technique with naruto as naruto isn't skilled enough to summon "Pa" and they wont be able to execute this fusion as naruto woul never be able to summon pa since he is not skilled enough.
Obviously, this assumption of yours , that naruto isn't skilled enough to summon ma and pa is wrong since if it was true, Pa would never consider doing fusion technique with naruto.
So yeah, naruto can summon Ma and Pa.
Now, the next thing you said is the sound genjutsu thingy. Obviously Ma and Pa can perform it without the presence of naruto in the jutsu as shown in naruto vs pain fight . So this genjutsu would not fail if they manage to gather time for it.
It is not too far-fetched to think that naruto can indulge sasuke in battle by constantly spamming technques and not give him time to attack Ma & Pa . he can also assign few of his clones to protect them.
Once the sound genjutsu is successfully executed, it will completely paralyze sasuke, as sound genjutsu being one of his weakness(as seen in his fight with Kabuto) , it would not be too hard for naruto to kill a paralyzed sasuke .
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Genjutsu can control ma and pa ??
You seem to contradict yourself right now. You were the one who clearly mentioned that ma and pa are superior in summons than the regular summons hence why they were distinctly mentioned in databook itself and were required to achieve a certain skill before getting summoned.
And then you claim that they can be controlled by genjutsu of sasuke who have never controlled anyone rather than random fodders and manda.
First of all, there is no where mentioned in the restrictions that sage mode can be used only once by naruto.
He can create multiple shadow clones and make them go into SM .
By that being said, losing SM due to excess of clones is not a problem for naruto since he can get SM back.
Kunai/shuriken spamming on shadow clones is also not a efficient counter since 100x shadow clones can produce more shuriken spamming than 1x sasuke and if this battle went out to a shuriken battle, 100x naruto shuriken spamming > 1x sasuke shuriken spamming and the only way to sasuke survive this, is susano.
Regarding the kyuubi argument,
This is all too far-fetched argument and non reliable either.
First of all, sasuke have never achieved something like that as you mentioned. Sasuke have only shown to suppress kyuubi chakra and lets keep it to that. Bringing out kyuubi chakra and making it take of naruto is another story.
If you use such arguments, i can also say , kyuubi will heal and protect naruto when he faces life threatening situations.
Also if we go by your argument , and if he somehow release kyuubi chakra (which is straight away too farfetched assumption and kind of impossible) , it is possible kyuubi goes berserk , say 8 tails and kills off sasuke just like that.
Clearly it wont be SM naruto vs MS sasuke anymore, and sasuke have more disadvantage at this situation as 8 tails naruto is much much much bigger threat than SM naruto.
It is stated in OP, the mindset of character is IC , so , sasuke unleashing kyuubi chakra from naruto just to counter shadow clones seems to be out of his character , as he have some better counters to kage bunshin which you failed to mention.
You also failed to show how exactly is sasuke going to determine which naruto is real among hundreds of naruto's clones , if sasuke cannot do that, he cannot unleash kyuubi's chakra and this method to defeat naruto bunshins fails.
and i have already covered your conclusion statement in above arguments.
Overall, you put up a great effort in countering my fellow partner's claims but you still didn't properly explain how MS sasuke wins this match and you made some unexpected foolish mistakes which i obviously took advantage of.
I expected more from you.
Well i was supposed to put my own arguments in this debate as well but i have to kinda go somewhere right now since its sunday, duh.
So i will finish this by putting my own arguments if i am allowed some time , if not, i ask shikamaru to put it for me since i already told him about it (if this is allowed), (he can even screenshot my PM and post it here)
Edit:
MY Argument
To start off my arguments, i want to clear some stuff.
1. Sasuke cannot see through shadow clones with MS.
It was stated in the manga that Byakugan > 3t Sharingan in terms of vision.
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Also, we know that MS doesn't grant the user anything which makes it better than 3t sharingan (strictly talking about vision) but maybe EMS does. Unless you can show me anything which suggest MS is better then 3t in vision, this statement stands .
Now kid naruto was able to fool neji who have a superior vision (byakugan)than a MS user.
Basically byakugan have better vision then MS but maybe not EMS and even with that vision , he got fooled by a mere naruto clone, so basically a sharingan/byakugan which can only see chakra cannot differentiate between clones if done by an expert user like naruto .
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This gives a good advantage to naruto since he can confuse sasuke with this ,make genjutsu useless and other things that i mentioned earlier.
Now comes my strategy on how naruto defeats sasuke .
I am planning to defeat quality(sasuke) by quantity{naruto) :
What naruto will do is basically create 1000 kage bunshins and send 100 of them underground.
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Now he will let 20 of them go into SM . ( we don't how many kage bunshin can naruto make with SM so i will take it as 5 and other 15 as backup)
The remaining 80 would be going to an underground attack on sasuke .
I went for an underground assault because this is susano's weak point, susano protects the user from everywhere except underground (further proved when gaara used his sand against madara) .
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And MS Sasuke's running speed decreases when his full susano is active which can be clearly observed here :
Sasuke with big susano :
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Sasuke lowers down susano level to below level 1 for mobility :
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So if we connect the dots and summarize it all :
Naruto sends around 100 clones underground which make attacks like amaterasu and tsukiyomi completely useless.
He gets to stay stationary at this situation and hence enter SM.
Naruto can use his SM to sense sasuke and pinpoint his location easily.
The other 900 clones surround sasuke from all the directions and are constantly attacking sasuke with various formations, (whether it be rasengan barrage,Odama rasengan barrage,FRS or whatever... ) forcing sasuke to keep his susano final form active at all times which will further deplete his chakra and also reduce his mobility hence making it easier to perform the underground assault by rougly 80 clones .
In this situation, sasuke is in a stalemate as
If he keep his susano active , he will not be able to move quickly and those 80 clones under his feet would get him.
i agree sasuke can hit his susano swords and stuff to break through underground but even then it is not possible for him to destroy 80 clones all at once especially when 900 clones are attacking him outside.
If he deactivates his susano to run from the clones which are coming at him from under the ground, those 900 clones at the top would get him .
With this tactic, there is no way for sasuke to escape his death.
This is a definite win from naruto.
And now imagine if naruto uses this tactic in conjunction with frog genjutsu which will further paralyze sasuke who has already hit a stalemate, this would become an overkill for sasuke.
I think with this strategy, naruto has also countered everything sasuke have, whether it be katon,raiton,kenjutsu,amaterasu,tsukiyomi or susano .
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Prince Charles
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This match is now closed for judging
Optimistic
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Sausage > Sm naruto Fact!
Frikid
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i have edited my post again, no edits were made just an add on.
Too bad you can't post it since it would be completely ignored by judges as the debate is over, unless you demand an extension, maybe then you can post it and it would be considered.
.
I could honestly do a lot better if i was at other side of the debate but it looks like i have too much bad luck at my side xD
May LORD SASUKE forgive me for this sinful act. xD
its possible that i contradict myself since these posts were made in different time and it is possible at one time i was thinking something and later i was thinking something else.
Too bad you can't post it since it would be completely ignored by judges as the debate is over, unless you demand an extension, maybe then you can post it and it would be considered.
lol its funny because even i have proved that MS sasuke > sm naruto through manga scans in the group thread but they didn't accept it so i was forced to go with i got
.I could honestly do a lot better if i was at other side of the debate but it looks like i have too much bad luck at my side xD
May LORD SASUKE forgive me for this sinful act. xD
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Zexion~
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i have edited my post again, no edits were made just an add on.
its possible that i contradict myself since these posts were made in different time and it is possible at one time i was thinking something and later i was thinking something else.
Too bad you can't post it since it would be completely ignored by judges as the debate is over, unless you demand an extension, maybe then you can post it and it would be considered.
lol its funny because even i have proved that MS sasuke > sm naruto through manga scans in the group thread but they didn't accept it so i was forced to go with i got
I could honestly do a lot better if i was at other side of the debate but it looks like i have too much bad luck at my side xD
May LORD SASUKE forgive me for this sinful act. xD
This won't be counted my man, sorry
Frikid
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what are you referring to ,when you said "this" won't be counted.
Zexion~
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Exactly what i quoted ... You most likely knew that already but i was just making it clear
Frikid
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if you mean the post No. 72 that i made, i haven't written anything on it related to the debate or anything which could make a difference and yeah i know that post will be not be counted.
Zexion~
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Just checking my man
Frikid
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maybe the judges should also get DQ for taking more than one day (technically 4 days if we count from the day the first argument was made) to judge. xD
johnnyindigo
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Just moving this to the top