NB Team Debate League round 3: Team sussan'o vs Disciples of Toonami

[Gakido]

1. No, gathering Senjutsu chakra requires the user to stay completely still, Jiraiya was able to move around while only keeping his hands tied together, which means he wasn't gathering Senjutsu chakra, but instead summoning the two sages ( which Jiraiya even mentioned he was doing ) in order to automaticaly sustain SM for him.

2. "Would have surely" means nothing if we haven't seen it on-panel.

Furthermore, even if Naruto were to know the ritual, it would still take longer than the Kirin preparation, so it wouldn't have made a difference.

1) Yet that same stance is the one the sage use to gather Sage Chakra, that also doesn't explain how he was able to enter sage mode upon summoning sages with them having no prior knowledge of him going to summon them.

2.) Then all of the arguments for Susano'O durablitiy go out the window since we havn't seen it tank something on the level that Naruto can produce.

Even your false interpretation of the summoning takes less time than preping Kirin. Even though the basis for all this is wrong. It was never stated that it was requirment to use eye shading to summon the sages, its just what Jiriaya used instead.

 

[~Puppet Master~]

1) Yet that same stance is the one the sage use to gather Sage Chakra, that also doesn't explain how he was able to enter sage mode upon summoning sages with them having no prior knowledge of him going to summon them.

2.) Then all of the arguments for Susano'O durablitiy go out the window since we havn't seen it tank something on the level that Naruto can produce.

Even your false interpretation of the summoning takes less time than preping Kirin. Even though the basis for all this is wrong. It was never stated that it was requirment to use eye shading to summon the sages, its just what Jiriaya used instead.

1. There is no "stance", all he has to do is keep his hands together.

2. What I mean, is that you did not back up your assumption, you merely state something without any further proof, Susano'o surely did back up their statements. Now I don't know if you're a spectator or an alt of one of the participants, but you shouldn't really come with these kinds of arguments, especially after the vote has been made.

[

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] <-- Jiraiya uses a special sort of blood ritual, then proceeds to keep his hands together for a long time in order to summon the two sages, saying this was only Jiraiya's method is the dumbest thing I have ever heard, especially since he's the only one who has ever done it.

 

[Gakido]

1. There is no "stance", all he has to do is keep his hands together.

2. What I mean, is that you did not back up your assumption, you merely state something without any further proof, Susano'o surely did back up their statements. Now I don't know if you're a spectator or an alt of one of the participants, but you shouldn't really come with these kinds of arguments, especially after the vote has been made.

[

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] <-- Jiraiya uses a special sort of blood ritual, then proceeds to keep his hands together for a long time in order to summon the two sages, saying this was only Jiraiya's method is the dumbest thing I have ever heard, especially since he's the only one who has ever done it.

Why does everyone think im an alt :/

Ok, Then how come the only time that stance is ever used is when Chakra is being regulated? Ma and Pa used it to gather Sage Chakra. Naruto used it to distribute Kurama's Chakra and Kurama is using it to gather Chakra. The way he's standing doesn't match up with your assumption. The only thing the scan mentions is that shading the eyes takes place of the blood contract, which is never stated to be neccesary nor is what your trying to assert ever mention. All the evidence points to Jiriaya gathering Sage Chakra then summoning Ma and Pa with the shading so he didn't have to move. This is backed up by the fact that Ma and Pa arn't naturally charged with Sage Chakra and didn't know they were going to be summoned.

All of there Arguments for Susano'O were also assumptions. We can't determine which level of Susano'O blocked kirin because we didn't see it. For all we know it could have been Yata. Or when they used Madara's Susano'O as a comparison, which would be faulty at best since Madara's Ribcage Susano'O tanked something infinitely superior to something that broke Sasuke's Ribcage Susano'O. Other than blocking a weak Fuuton, upper levels of Susano'O are featless.

As for the scan, he mentions hes going into Senin mode while assuming the stance of of one that regulating Chakra. He mentions Ma and Pa after the fact. I've already explained above why your reasoning is faulty.

 

[Zexion~]

Naruto gathering Kurama's chakra is in a completely different stance.. lml

This guy ..your wrong my man, thats like saying Naruto could summon the great elder if he wanted too

 

[Gakido]

Naruto gathering Kurama's chakra is in a completely different stance.. lml

This guy ..your wrong my man, thats like saying Naruto could summon the great elder if he wanted too

What are you on? It looks the same

Naruto:

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Jiriaya:

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Kurama:

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They were all regulating chakra and doing the same thing.

 

[Zexion~]

Relax ..i thought you meant in part one lmao,

If he anyone who has a contract could summon the sages what exactly was jiraiya waiting for? The whole point of summoning them is so that while jiraiya is still he can gather SM,

the 5 min it took were to summon the Sages

Then in the pipe he quickly gathered SM Chakra U_U

 

[~Puppet Master~]

Why does everyone think im an alt :/

Ok, Then how come the only time that stance is ever used is when Chakra is being regulated? Ma and Pa used it to gather Sage Chakra. Naruto used it to distribute Kurama's Chakra and Kurama is using it to gather Chakra. The way he's standing doesn't match up with your assumption. The only thing the scan mentions is that shading the eyes takes place of the blood contract, which is never stated to be neccesary nor is what your trying to assert ever mention. All the evidence points to Jiriaya gathering Sage Chakra then summoning Ma and Pa with the shading so he didn't have to move. This is backed up by the fact that Ma and Pa arn't naturally charged with Sage Chakra and didn't know they were going to be summoned.

All of there Arguments for Susano'O were also assumptions. We can't determine which level of Susano'O blocked kirin because we didn't see it. For all we know it could have been Yata. Or when they used Madara's Susano'O as a comparison, which would be faulty at best since Madara's Ribcage Susano'O tanked something infinitely superior to something that broke Sasuke's Ribcage Susano'O. Other than blocking a weak Fuuton, upper levels of Susano'O are featless.

As for the scan, he mentions hes going into Senin mode while assuming the stance of of one that regulating Chakra. He mentions Ma and Pa after the fact. I've already explained above why your reasoning is faulty.

Because you're a spectator arguing in DoT's favor XD But I really don't care if you're an alt or not.

The bold part really makes me wonder if you've even read the debate...

( I'm very tired right now, so I'm using anime screenshots ) [

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] This is the stance used to gather Senjutsu chakra, not clapping your hands together, that's, like you said, used for all kinds of chakra related actions, which means Jiraiya uses them for something other than Senjutsu, which only leaves the summoning of the toad sages.

And you say Jiraiya was gathering Senjutsu chakra, but it's Ma and Pa who gather the Senjutsu chakra, not Jiraiya himself, that's the whole point of having them merge with Jiraiya, so they can gather Senjutsu chakra for him while he fights. This also explains why he was almost instantly in Sage Mode after the summon, since the two are sages, it's very likely they're as skilled in Senjutsu as Naruto, and can thus gather sufficient Senjutsu chakra in only seconds.

No offense intended, but I honestly think you're a bit underinformed of the manga, or at least this particular part of it.

 

[Zexion~]

Because you're a spectator arguing in DoT's favor XD But I really don't care if you're an alt or not.

The bold part really makes me wonder if you've even read the debate...

( I'm very tired right now, so I'm using anime screenshots ) [

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] This is the stance used to gather Senjutsu chakra, not clapping your hands together, that's, like you said, used for all kinds of chakra related actions, which means Jiraiya uses them for something other than Senjutsu, which only leaves the summoning of the toad sages.

And you say Jiraiya was gathering Senjutsu chakra, but it's Ma and Pa who gather the Senjutsu chakra, not Jiraiya himself, that's the whole point of having them merge with Jiraiya, so they can gather Senjutsu chakra for him while he fights. This also explains why he was almost instantly in Sage Mode after the summon, since the two are sages, it's very likely they're as skilled in Senjutsu as Naruto, and can thus gather sufficient Senjutsu chakra in only seconds.

No offense intended, but I honestly think you're a bit underinformed of the manga, or at least this particular part of it.

/argument..

 

[Gakido]

Because you're a spectator arguing in DoT's favor XD But I really don't care if you're an alt or not.

The bold part really makes me wonder if you've even read the debate...

( I'm very tired right now, so I'm using anime screenshots ) [

You must be registered for see links

] This is the stance used to gather Senjutsu chakra, not clapping your hands together, that's, like you said, used for all kinds of chakra related actions, which means Jiraiya uses them for something other than Senjutsu, which only leaves the summoning of the toad sages.

And you say Jiraiya was gathering Senjutsu chakra, but it's Ma and Pa who gather the Senjutsu chakra, not Jiraiya himself, that's the whole point of having them merge with Jiraiya, so they can gather Senjutsu chakra for him while he fights. This also explains why he was almost instantly in Sage Mode after the summon, since the two are sages, it's very likely they're as skilled in Senjutsu as Naruto, and can thus gather sufficient Senjutsu chakra in only seconds.

No offense intended, but I honestly think you're a bit underinformed of the manga, or at least this particular part of it.

Naw, My only problem is you thinking Naruto can't summon Ma and Pa.

Bold: Wrong Again. This should be nail in coffin of the Stance argument.

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Hashirama went through a whole conversation gather Senjutsu doing the exact same thing a Jiriaya.

I've already explained why the rest is faulty but you two continue to ignore it.

 

[Zexion~]

Naw, My only problem is you thinking Naruto can't summon Ma and Pa.

Bold: Wrong Again. This should be nail in coffin of the Stance argument.

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Hashirama went through a whole conversation gather Senjutsu.

I've already explained why the rest is faulty but you two continue to ignore it.

Is Hashi entering toad sage mode

 

[Gakido]

Is Hashi entering toad sage mode

Its the same principle. They both require standing still.

 

[Zexion~]

Its the same principle. They both require standing still.

As you said it could just be a plain stance people choose to gather chakra, so i see no reason why JIraiya could not of been doing this to gather chakra to summon the sages U_U

Not to mention as you can see Hashirama was not moving his legs, while jiraya was and this shows that sage mode could of been entered here as Hashi did it in seconds .. not 5 minutes

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[~Puppet Master~]

Naw, My only problem is you thinking Naruto can't summon Ma and Pa.

Bold: Wrong Again. This should be nail in coffin of the Stance argument.

Spoiler

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Hashirama went through a whole conversation gather Senjutsu doing the exact same thing a Jiriaya.

I've already explained why the rest is faulty but you two continue to ignore it.

I showed you that Senjutsu chakra for Toad SM gathered with its unique hand seal, and you counter it with a scan of Hashirama using a different seal for wood SM? Not a very good example, basicaly invalid.

Furthermore, Hashirama moved while gathering Senjutsu chakra, so for all we know, his SM might be far different from the other ones.

You cannot dispute that Toad SM gathers Senjutsu chakra with that unique handseal, and that clapping hands is used for many things, so you basically contradicted yourself.

 

[Gakido]

As you said it could just be a plain stance people choose to gather chakra, so i see no reason why JIraiya could not of been doing this to gather chakra to summon the sages U_U

Not to mention as you can see Hashirama was not moving his legs, while jiraya was and this shows that sage mode could of been entered here as Hashi did it in seconds .. not 5 minutes

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Sage Mode requires the user not to move their body. Movement through space doesn't matter or Naruto's Clones would have failed when they were summoned.

Hashirama also went through a whole conversation with Madara before he entered Sage Mode.

Gathering Chakra for the summons is a much weaker explanation than gathering Sage Chakra. Jiriaya wasn't tired, nor did Ma and Pa have previously stored Sage Chakra. Jiriaya is also in a chakra gathering/regulating stance.

I showed you that Senjutsu chakra for Toad SM gathered with its unique hand seal, and you counter it with a scan of Hashirama using a different seal for wood SM? Not a very good example, basicaly invalid.

Furthermore, Hashirama moved while gathering Senjutsu chakra, so for all we know, his SM might be far different from the other ones.

You cannot dispute that Toad SM gathers Senjutsu chakra with that unique handseal, and that clapping hands is used for many things, so you basically contradicted yourself.

Bold.

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Notice they're in the same stance as Jiriaya and Hashirama, gathering Sage Chakra *Gasp!*

Again, False. Thats just the stance Naruto chose to take. Its easier to sit than stand and the Clones would have been standing for a long time. Also, Naruto assumed the clapped hands seal when he was tyring to gather senjutsu while moving. Ma and Pa also used clapped hands while gather Sage Chakra during the Pain Fight.

My point was also to provethat the stance was chakra gathering/chakra regulating. Which would involve Sage Chakra.

 

[Zexion~]

No ...to summons such strong Sages, you must gather a certain amount of chakra and shade under your eyes its that simple ..U_U Why else do you suppose he shaded under his eyes

 

[Gakido]

No ...to summons such strong Sages, you must gather a certain amount of chakra and shade under your eyes its that simple ..U_U Why else do you suppose he shaded under his eyes

We've been through this. You gave up on countering anything I said.

Gathering a certain amount of chakra is fanfiction when he can use a semi mountain buster (according to the databook) with No prep.

 

[~Puppet Master~]

Bold.

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Notice they're in the same stance as Jiriaya and Hashirama, gathering Sage Chakra *Gasp!*

Again, False. Thats just the stance Naruto chose to take. Its easier to sit than stand and the Clones would have been standing for a long time. Also, Naruto assumed the clapped hands seal when he was tyring to gather senjutsu while moving. Ma and Pa also used clapped hands while gather Sage Chakra during the Pain Fight.

My point was also to provethat the stance was chakra gathering/chakra regulating. Which would involve Sage Chakra.

So, you're saying that's just the stance Naruto chose to take, which means it doesn't matter what stance you take when you gather Senjutsu chakra? This basically makes your argument invalid again.

Not to mention, Jiraiya moved while using this stance, which proves he wasn't gathering Senjutsu chakra, I don't see how you counter this ...

EDIT: Like Zexion said, Jiraiya made markings under his eyes which indicate he was using a summoning jutsu.

 

[Gakido]

So, you're saying that's just the stance Naruto chose to take, which means it doesn't matter what stance you take when you gather Senjutsu chakra? This basically makes your argument invalid again.

Not to mention, Jiraiya moved while using this stance, which proves he wasn't gathering Senjutsu chakra, I don't see how you counter this ...

The clapped hands is just the easiest way to do so. Naruto just does it a diffrent way. Gathering chakra can be done more than one way, but the stance Jiriaya took is on of gathering/regulating chakra. Which is indisputable.

Jiraya didnt move his body, he moved through space. Which is something I've already pointed out doesn't matter.

 

[~Puppet Master~]

Jiraya didnt move his body, he moved through space. Which is something I've already pointed out doesn't matter.

Please elaborate on this... The manga clearly shows that you have to keep your body completely still to gather Senjutsu chakra, Jiraiya was running all over the place, even using a barrier technique, only keeping his hands together like they were glued.

 

[Princessu Kaaantchan]

Sorry, looking at it further Naruto should by all means be able to summon Ma and Pa. Ma herself proved that the ritual isn't needed to summon at least Fukusaku, the DB says it "takes the place of" in other words is a substitute of a summoning contract, Jiraiya most likely didn't have the reserves to summon them both.