[Discussion] My overall frustrations with chapter 671 and the series as a whole

[AfroJutsu]

SkyGodHorus:

"The only people sasuke has killed was the samurai and it is their own fault for charging at him when he warned them not to. And no one has said sasuke is pardoned now. "

^ Smh makes no sense, walk into an army base with a weapon thats clearly visible, like his sword and see what happens. Are you going to tell the MP's not to attack you? And if you kill them it's their fault?

 

[SkyGodHorus]

before i specifically reply to skygod let me reply to the op, you are right in almost everything you said. sasuke was a rouge ninja who plotted to destroy an entire village and everyone in it. all that to get back at several people who do not make up the sum of konoha i might add. he killed samurai, and aided a known fugitive by joining his ranks. he may have killed said fugitive, only to gain his power i might add, but he then revives him. luckily for him orochimaru decides not to continue his evil ways, for now.

Sasuke didn't aid Orochimaru in any way. He just trained with him.

but as for the hard working thing, i agree and disagree. the prophecy wasn't truly set in stone. because there was two prophecies which depending on certain choices could go either way. but to even further elaborate, even for those things to happen naruto had to be a hard worker. he had to start from the bottom, and believe me he was at the bottom alone. then to go to the top and achieve everything he has. so neji was right and wrong, as even though there was a prophecy, he still had to work hard to achieve it. just because someone can see the future does not take away from hard work. if i was the sage i wouldn't have given sasuke a power-up as i know he is easily swayed, and rewarding indras bloodline with more power because they keep starting wars is not smart. you don't give a child what they want because they threw a fit, you smack them across the head and tell them stop being babies.

This is not the topic of the thread.

now on to skygod,sasuke killed samurai after invading their lands and entering restricted areas to assassinate one of their guess.

And after they charged at him when he warned them not to and when they knew that he defeated Orochimaru, Itachi and Deidara.

He invaded their lands because he believed the man they were hosting was a corrupt bastard who killed many, which he was. Danzou tried no peaceful solution to the Uchiha coup, he stole all their eyes for himself, he conspired with Orochimaru and created a rebellion against Hiruzen, who died as a result along with dozens of innocent shinobi, stole Hashirama's cells and stayed under ground while Pein destroyed Konoha. His bad deeds FARRRR outweigh Sasuke's, and he was clear-headed when he did all of it, unlike Sasuke, who was influenced by his sharingan's power and newly discovered revelations that drove him half mad. Still even with all that, he warned the samurai to back off rather than just killing them in cold blood.

they were well within their right to defend their homeland/base from intruders which sasuke was.

And they also knew what he was capable of. Instead of charging at him like morons, they should have fallen back like any intelligent and objective soldier and contacted the kages.

the didn't know his intentions, just he was an enemy who infiltrated their base and had attacked people.

Wrong. Sasuke's reputation spread across the lands and all the kages knew of him.

And even if they did not know anything about him, they would have realized he was powerful and skilled enough to easily defeat them and infiltrate their base without them knowing it.

And did he kill any of these people he attacked? No, he knocked them out. Did the samurai try to restrain him? No, they ran in for the kill like the idiot samurai foot soldiers of the sengoku era, which Kishimoto was probably referencing.

sasuke was def in the wrong, no if and or butts about it.

You should remain objective in a debate, thus your replies and standpoints come off as shaken like they do here.

also all of a sudden if you were going to brutally kill somebody but didn't get to because somebody can and stopped you, it's ok as long as you say sorry.

Sasuke wasn't in his right mind when he did it due to his eyes and the revelations, and yes, I believe in forgiveness.

that makes no sense buddy, karin should have been done with him. but again kishi makes stupid women characters.

Incorrect. It subjectively makes no sense to you because you possess different beliefs and ideals.

And you are contradicting yourself here by speaking sexist and stating all the women in the manga are stupid.

so sasuke gets the ok for his actions because people told him the truth and he decided to murder people? ok buddy lol.

He didn't murder anyone. When you warn someone to leave you alone, it is self-defense. And yes, because it warped his mind in addition to evolving his sharingan, which Tobirama stated unnaturally effects the Uchihas' emotions.

he was going to kill everyone in the village, almost all of which knew nothing of what happened with his clan or had anything to do with it.

He didn't and now he has made up for it by defeating Kauto and saving thousands from Edo Tensei, along woth summoning the kages who saved the alliance several times with their jutsus and helped to defeat Obito before he and Naruto joined and defeated Obito together. Dwelling on something that didn't transpire is counter productive and contradictory to this world peace and alliance theme. If they had severely punished Sasuke or if Hagoromo had ignored him, he may have escaped and started his whole vengeance spree again for being as rejected as his clan had been and thus conflict would have continued. This time, Hagoromo is giving him a chance to prove himself. And I'm not saying Sasuke will remain of this virtuous route since he and Naruto may still fight, but he has more than made up for what little bad deeds he's done.

It's really sad how no one takes into account that he watched his own brother murder his family and entire clan when he was only seven and managed to remain sane this long. No, instead they blow his bad deeds out of proportion, completely ignore their circumstance as well as the good ones he's done throughout the series and call him a douchebag. It really does confound me, but I digress.

he didn't care, he saw their happiness and decided he didn't want them happy because itachi died. sasuke is crazy.

Yes, he was unhinged at the time. As in lost his senses and himself because of the influence of his sharingan and the revelations, not to mention all the emotions he bottled up for years to remain focused. Are you saying someone who has gone crazy a bit has no redeeming qualities regardless of the situation? So does that mean you would allow a final solution for all schizophrenics and the traumatized?

Itachi wasn't the only one who died. Sasuke's entire family, clan and childhood died.

it doesn't matter, he aided a known fugitive to konoha to gain power. all of orochimaru's "pupils" help in things he wants done. they do different things, we just don't know what they were, but they cant be good.

You are sounding subjectively shaken and contradictory again by using phrases such as, "It doesn't matter." If it doesn't matter, why did you agree to and state it in the first place?

No, sasuke showed time and again he would not kill anyone for Orochimaru and in the end, sealed Orochimaru for his deeds. And manga does not show Sasuke going on missions for Orochimaru, but disobeying and talking back to him over and over qhile simply living with and training with him.

it was not self defense against the samurai, he was an invader!

An invader who harmed no one prior to them attacking him before he warned them not to. Your exclamation point again shows that you are shaken. Again, you should remain objective.

just because sasuke got another speech from somebody and changed his mind again shouldn't get him off any hook.

So you are ignoring that he helped defeat Kabuto, releasing edo tensei and saving thousands? Along with killing the white zetsu army, bringing back the hokages and helping them and naruto defeat Obito? You realize if he hadn't, there probably wouldn't have been anyone left to judge him.

those crimes he committed are still crimes. a murderer doesn't get away because he helped somebody fight this one guy, he still gets punished for his crimes.

People are tried before they are punished in this system.

He didn't just fight some guy, he saved thousands from him.

And he wasn't a murderer because he warned them not to attack him.

 

[SkyGodHorus]

SkyGodHorus:

"The only people sasuke has killed was the samurai and it is their own fault for charging at him when he warned them not to. And no one has said sasuke is pardoned now. "

^ Smh makes no sense, walk into an army base with a weapon thats clearly visible, like his sword and see what happens. Are you going to tell the MP's not to attack you? And if you kill them it's their fault?

Why would a squad of MPs armed with guns fire on a single person with a melee weapon rather than restraining him/her?

I'm not understanding your metaphor here.

The samurai used swords, not guns.

In Sasuke's case, if you are someone with a reputation of defeating several strong and wanted foes and easily infiltrated a base by simply knocking the guards out rather than killing them when you could have before warning the others not to attack you, I'd say it would be safer for the guards, who are not skilled in such ability as the intruder, to fall back and call on the big fishes instead, aka the kages before charging in half cocked for the kill rather and asking questions later when there could possibly be no one left to ask them. By doing this, you not only secure your forces, keep casualties to a minimum and live to fight again, but obtain the knowledge to fight your enemy. It's how a militia works.

 

[AfroJutsu]

Okay with that reasoning so many entities should perish. Random civilians had nothing to with covert military affairs.

 

[SkyGodHorus]

Okay with that reasoning so many entities should perish. Random civilians had nothing to with covert military affairs.

Neither did the women and children of the Uchiha.

In the end, Sasuke did not kill thousands. Instead he saved hundreds of thousands.

Sasuke attacked no civilians in the base because there were no civilians in the base.

You believe Sasuke should be punished alone correct?

Then what about the hidden mist village who forced their children to fight and kill each other, as well as kidnapped Rin, put the three tails inside her, used her as bait and a weapon and forced Kakashi to kill her?

The cloud village who went into Konoha under treacherous means, tried to kidnap Hinata and threatened a war if Neji's father did not kill himself when they began the conflict, along with countless others, being the greedy warmongers that they were.

The Hidden rock who willingly worked with Akatsuki?

The Hidden sand who willingly worked with Orochimaru and began an unprovoked rebellion under the same treacherous circumstances as the cloud? Gaara who killed his people as well as others?

 

[AfroJutsu]

Of course they used swords, I'm saying put it in modern times, if a random guy who was armed walked into a restricted area they would attempt to restrain him if not they will attack. Soldiers are ordered to guard their post in this case it was most likely a restrictive militarized zone, if it was an order to attack suspicious persons on site they had every right. Sasuke knew he wasn't supposed to be there. If they went to restrain him he would've attacked them, either way it's not the soldier's fault it's Sasuke's for killing them

 

[AfroJutsu]

"And after they charged at him when he warned them not to and when they knew that he defeated Orochimaru, Itachi and Deidara.

He invaded their lands because he believed the man they were hosting was a corrupt bastard who killed many, which he was. Danzou tried no peaceful solution to the Uchiha coup, he stole all their eyes for himself, he conspired with Orochimaru and created a rebellion against Hiruzen, who died as a result along with dozens of innocent shinobi, stole Hashirama's cells and stayed under ground while Pein destroyed Konoha. His bad deeds FARRRR outweigh Sasuke's, and he was clear-headed when he did all of it, unlike Sasuke, who was influenced by his sharingan's power and newly discovered revelations that drove him half mad. Still even with all that, he warned the samurai to back off rather than just killing them in cold blood. "

Sasuke still killed soldier's who's duty was to guard a post, regardless of his reasons he shouldn't have been there. I fail to see how it's the soldier's fault, look at it if it were a platoon of Russian soldiers or American soldiers against a well known afghan insurgent, but since sasuke's so special let's say this insurgent is some bad ass on par with spetsnaz and green berets, so he tells them not to attack yet he still blatantly trespasses. The soldiers are in the right to guard their post.

 

[SkyGodHorus]

Of course they used swords, I'm saying put it in modern times, if a random guy who was armed walked into a restricted area they would attempt to restrain him if not they will attack.

Yes, but you specifically said a sword against a brigade soldiers armed with guns. My country is a democratic republic and it's militia follow rules. They wouldn't shoot someone in cold blood who is armed with a melee weapon and has of yet harmed no one. The police force is the same as they must give out warning before firing on someone.

Soldiers are ordered to guard their post in this case it was most likely a restrictive militarized zone, if it was an order to attack suspicious persons on site they had every right.

Key word, "if."

They threw their lives away when they knew what they were getting into and when they were warned not to charge by someone who already defeated many of them.

Sasuke knew he wasn't supposed to be there.

Sasuke was working steathily to get to no one other than Danzou. Zetsu sounded the alarm, not him.

If they went to restrain him he would've attacked them, either way it's not the soldier's fault it's Sasuke's for killing them

I didn't say they should have restrained him. I said the soldiers of my country who are armed with guns and live in a democratic republic world. With these guys, I stated they have fallen back, gained knowledge and regrouped before heading off half-cocked against someone they knew defeated many powerful foes, who warned them not to attack him and who had already easily defeated several of them steathily.

Sasuke still killed soldier's who's duty was to guard a post,

Yes, along with thousands of other shinobi throughout the ages and the present who believed their ideals were just.

And I gave reasoning why they should have revised that post.

regardless of his reasons he shouldn't have been there.

His only target was Danzou as he made clear by stealthing his way in and not killing anyone prior to them attacking him. Danzou was vulnerable and out in the open, out of the ground and woods and away from his faction. Sasuke took advantage of this like any other shinobi.

I fail to see how it's the soldier's fault,

It's their fault for being a bad example and putting their men in harm's way when they knew they were in harm's way rather than examining the situation first and gathering information.

look at it if it were a platoon of Russian soldiers or American soldiers against a well known afghan insurgent, but since sasuke's so special let's say this insurgent is some bad ass on par with spetsnaz and green berets, so he tells them not to attack yet he still blatantly trespasses.

Except that these soldiers did not possess the skills or firepower and were limited in number. Furthermore, Sasuke did not initially kill them as spetsnaz and green berets would have. Even further, Sasuke isn't a suicide bomber or a terrorist. At the time, he just wanted Danzou dead, who asurped the hokage position, abandoned Konoha's people during Pein's attack and was about to corrupt the village.

Your metaphors are out of context.

The soldiers are in the right to guard their post.

You shouldn't repeat the same subjective lines. I already know full well what your standpoint is and repeating it over and over makes you come off as shaken rather than objective.

And you did not respond to my position on the crimes of the other villages.

 

[Anbu Shinobi]

Well murders make deals with the law all the time like a mafia hitman turned rat and do no jail time these things happen all the time in real life so i dont think you have an idea about what you are saying i think its yin and yang or positive and negative you have both coexisting forces playing a role here

 

[XxLotusxX]

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Imma need a tl;dr

 

[Mr Hiru]

I'll put it simple:

One good deed doesn't erase a bad one. This said, Sasuke doesn't deserve anything. And also even Naruto didn't deserve anything.

 

[valandil988]

This will be a long rant I've been wanting to do for a while. I've been wanting to join this site for a while, but registrations had been closed, so I haven't really been able to voice my opinions. I'll be honest, I've been really disliking this series for a while now. I was going to do a long rant a couple chapters ago, but they were very good chapters, so I thought if the ending were good enough, I'd re-evaluate and do the rant at the end. Even if the series had the most amazing ending in the world, the absolute best I could give it is a 7/10. After this most recent chapter, I really doubt I'll be getting that best ending in the world. So I'll be talking about a lot and I wanna hear what you guys think.

In regards to the most recent chapter, I thought it was pretty good. It was a 4/5 in regards to chapter quality. But the ending really pissed me the hell off. How could you give Sasuke any power? After all the shit he did to the village, all the people he killed directly and indirectly, after joining up with a person who Sasuke knew was trying to destroy the Leaf Village and actually followed through with his plans (aka not just bark with no bite), how could you give Sasuke any sort of power? And this was BEFORE he knew what the village did to his clan. He just joined him just because. And to those who said Sasuke didn't kill anyone, you might be right in a direct sense. But he joined up with Orochimaru and went on missions to support his killing. It's no different than saying a war general committed crimes against humanity even though he didn't directly hurt anyone.

To me, this is giving the idea that if a bratty little kid whines enough and starts breaking enough shit, he'll eventually get his way, and that would be totally okay. To me, that's totally not okay. It would be one thing if Sasuke were still in his emo phase before joining up with Orochimaru, but after that point, he shouldn't' be treated as anything other than a rogue ninja and killed when given the chance. How could you ever give Sasuke this kind of power let alone even forgive him? This is a MAJOR issue I have with the series that's not just exclusive to this situation.

Kishi gives this idea that being too nice, while can be problematic, is perfectly ok, but the opposite is evil in itself. That applies to Hiruzen vs. Danzo. You have Danzo who is incredibly conservative to the point of being an obstructionist and will kill anyone and do anything to get his way. At the other side, you have Hiruzen who basically let Orochimaru go even though he knew what would happen. Why is it that Hirzuen gets a TOTAL slide for his actions towards the Orochimaru situation? This series just seems to have this skewed concept of reality where love and forgiveness will conquer all. That's true to an extent. There comes a point where you love and forgiveness becomes a problem and you have to take a hard line stance towards some things, but Naruto doesn't seem to be capable of doing that. Yes, Danzo was a douche, but Hiruzen did more than his fair share of things that hurt the village. As I said, I'd have no problme giving Sasuke that power if this was before he joined up with Orochimaru. But after he crossed that line, the very least I'd do to him is exile him from the Leaf.

That goes into another problem I have with the whole "Cycle of Hatred" BS. This whole series goes into how revenge continues the cycle of hatred. But you know what else continues the cycle of hatred? Not serving justice when it's deserved. How would a person feel if his best friend in the entire world was killed on a mission against Sasuke, later to find out Sasuke had been totally pardoned? What would Naruto say to the dead man's friend? What would Naruto say to the dead man's parents? That killing the man who murdered your son in cold blood would continue the cycle of hatred? If my child were brutally murdered by someone and the government just pardoned him, I'd be absolutely FURIOUS. Not killing the murderer would create a new cycle of hatred. When you have a chance to serve justice, it's your duty to do so. Not only is it wrong not to, but it basically takes a giant shit on all the people who suffered because of the criminal.

Now we get into the whole "destiny" thing. Remember when Neji was telling Naruto how fate controls you and Naruto was all like "I make my own fate", how do you think that looks now? When Neji was made to look like the bad guy, he was right all along. It's incredibly frustrating to see someone made to look so bad and then be proven right in the very end. And what makes it even more frustrating was he changed becuase of that whole conversatino with Naruto, but he was right all along. So even as far back as the Chunin exams have we been seeing this BS.

I've just been really frustrated with the series for a while now. I think it has one of the most interesting premises, but it's really become obnoxious with the whole "striving for world peace, end the cycle of hatred" bullshit. It seems like for every thing it gets right, it gets 2 things wrong. I just don't even know what to feel about the series anymore. I mean it is a shonen so it's going to give a 12 year old's outlook on the world of "if you're kind enough, all of the problems in the world will go away, but it seems like Nartuo's been by far the worst offender. Do you guys agree with me? Disagree with me? Think I'm talking out of my ass. I'm curious what you guys think of the series as a whole. It's been pretty epic lately, but all this love and peace crap keeps popping up and ends up being a total buzzkill. I know I've missed a whole bunch of my thoughts so my arguments might not make as much sense as they could. Let me know what you think.

Your absolutely right, kishi's themes are all over the place. You have to remember Kishi is a okayish writer but great world builder. So of course his story kinda defeats itself and is completely hypocritical.

Your primary angst seems to stem at Sasuke joining Orochimaru. To be honest, I found Sasuke's rational for joining to be pretty stupid given that he easily could have grown in power in Konoha. However, the key point here is that he joins Orochimaru to fulfill his dream: To kill Itachi the man who murdered his clan.

During this time period. He makes actions that likely aid Orochimaru. I'd agree in saying technically, he should be counted as a rogue; however, he ultimately kills Orochimaru which IMO is somewhat redeeming. It shows Sasuke only wanted power. I'd still give him a punishment... but I wouldn't exile him. Like say a few years in prison for aiding in Orochimaru's operations. Something I feel he'd accept provided he was allowed to silence Itachi first.

In the end, we honestly don't know what Sasuke did.... so for all we know he just stayed in that facility and got drugged/trained.


Sasuke's worst sequence is when he starts getting easily swayed, exaggerates his reactions, and ultimately does a double flip flop of actions. Meaning.... 6 people and his clan are responsible for his clan's death..... at most, they should be punished... yet Sasuke thinks he can legitimize killing an entire village. Then after just a few speeches (one of which said increased his hatred)... he wants to be Hokage. Great development character wise in a sense.... it sadly loses that appeal with how extreme the thoughts end up.

And I completely agree about the Destiny argument. Neji was literally on the dot right. By Destiny, Naruto was ironically a destined child of prophecy. He was also to unite the Biju. Hell Neji technically died for the main branch... though he at least looked at it as saving someone he cared about.

You didn't even include the concept of Hard Work. Naruto, Lee, and Hinata probably stand as the three of the rookies who were "hard workers." In the end... Naruto became a "gifted god clan Hokage Destiny child." Lee and Hinata HARDLY improved.... Lee opened one gate (though fair enough given he just went and healed a broken arm and leg in 2 years). Hinata couldn't even use 64 palms until the Juubi arc. Kishi solidly killed that theme... and honestly his last chapter attempts to say, Naruto had to work hard and realize his talents falls short when he's a destined child and still has powerful clan genetics.

Exactly true about Hinata and lee, with all that hard work they still suck. Yet super god Naruto could become a sage because of Kuramas influence on his already uzumaki body. Doesn't that stink of predestination and gifted bloodlines?

 

[Ultimateone]

Sasuke didn't aid Orochimaru in any way. He just trained with him.



This is not the topic of the thread.



And after they charged at him when he warned them not to and when they knew that he defeated Orochimaru, Itachi and Deidara.

He invaded their lands because he believed the man they were hosting was a corrupt bastard who killed many, which he was. Danzou tried no peaceful solution to the Uchiha coup, he stole all their eyes for himself, he conspired with Orochimaru and created a rebellion against Hiruzen, who died as a result along with dozens of innocent shinobi, stole Hashirama's cells and stayed under ground while Pein destroyed Konoha. His bad deeds FARRRR outweigh Sasuke's, and he was clear-headed when he did all of it, unlike Sasuke, who was influenced by his sharingan's power and newly discovered revelations that drove him half mad. Still even with all that, he warned the samurai to back off rather than just killing them in cold blood.



And they also knew what he was capable of. Instead of charging at him like morons, they should have fallen back like any intelligent and objective soldier and contacted the kages.



Wrong. Sasuke's reputation spread across the lands and all the kages knew of him.

And even if they did not know anything about him, they would have realized he was powerful and skilled enough to easily defeat them and infiltrate their base without them knowing it.

And did he kill any of these people he attacked? No, he knocked them out. Did the samurai try to restrain him? No, they ran in for the kill like the idiot samurai foot soldiers of the sengoku era, which Kishimoto was probably referencing.



You should remain objective in a debate, thus your replies and standpoints come off as shaken like they do here.



Sasuke wasn't in his right mind when he did it due to his eyes and the revelations, and yes, I believe in forgiveness.



Incorrect. It subjectively makes no sense to you because you possess different beliefs and ideals.

And you are contradicting yourself here by speaking sexist and stating all the women in the manga are stupid.



He didn't murder anyone. When you warn someone to leave you alone, it is self-defense. And yes, because it warped his mind in addition to evolving his sharingan, which Tobirama stated unnaturally effects the Uchihas' emotions.



He didn't and now he has made up for it by defeating Kauto and saving thousands from Edo Tensei, along woth summoning the kages who saved the alliance several times with their jutsus and helped to defeat Obito before he and Naruto joined and defeated Obito together. Dwelling on something that didn't transpire is counter productive and contradictory to this world peace and alliance theme. If they had severely punished Sasuke or if Hagoromo had ignored him, he may have escaped and started his whole vengeance spree again for being as rejected as his clan had been and thus conflict would have continued. This time, Hagoromo is giving him a chance to prove himself. And I'm not saying Sasuke will remain of this virtuous route since he and Naruto may still fight, but he has more than made up for what little bad deeds he's done.

It's really sad how no one takes into account that he watched his own brother murder his family and entire clan when he was only seven and managed to remain sane this long. No, instead they blow his bad deeds out of proportion, completely ignore their circumstance as well as the good ones he's done throughout the series and call him a douchebag. It really does confound me, but I digress.



Yes, he was unhinged at the time. As in lost his senses and himself because of the influence of his sharingan and the revelations, not to mention all the emotions he bottled up for years to remain focused. Are you saying someone who has gone crazy a bit has no redeeming qualities regardless of the situation? So does that mean you would allow a final solution for all schizophrenics and the traumatized?

Itachi wasn't the only one who died. Sasuke's entire family, clan and childhood died.



You are sounding subjectively shaken and contradictory again by using phrases such as, "It doesn't matter." If it doesn't matter, why did you agree to and state it in the first place?

No, sasuke showed time and again he would not kill anyone for Orochimaru and in the end, sealed Orochimaru for his deeds. And manga does not show Sasuke going on missions for Orochimaru, but disobeying and talking back to him over and over qhile simply living with and training with him.



An invader who harmed no one prior to them attacking him before he warned them not to. Your exclamation point again shows that you are shaken. Again, you should remain objective.



So you are ignoring that he helped defeat Kabuto, releasing edo tensei and saving thousands? Along with killing the white zetsu army, bringing back the hokages and helping them and naruto defeat Obito? You realize if he hadn't, there probably wouldn't have been anyone left to judge him.



People are tried before they are punished in this system.

He didn't just fight some guy, he saved thousands from him.

And he wasn't a murderer because he warned them not to attack him.

lol ok here i go

i don't know why you don't understand that just like ninja, samurai are part of a military. these people have a post to protect, that is their job. sasuke invaded their base/stronghold, and it is there job to eliminate threats to their security. if you went on a base today carrying a weapon, what do you think is gonna happen? they are gonna attack you because this is a restricted area. no matter is they had kim jong un at the base, you can't just infiltrate the base to go kill him. they will kill you instead for breaking the law. now please understand that as it applies to this situation. got it? moving on.

regardless of who said person is, it is their duty to protect their lands. sasuke was the bad guy here, buddy.

you do not get off the hook for trying to kill somebody just because you claim mental instability. that doesn't even fly in court anymore. he made a choice to do what he did. he wasn't under a genjutsu or anything, it was his choice.

also it's not my fault kishi made the women in this manga useless, make stupid choices or fawn over people who try to kill them. thats not sexist, thats an observation of an authors portrayal of women.

he has no right to tell the samurai to leave him alone. as i have explained before, he is commiting a crim and therefore subject to the consequences of said actions. you can't go rob a bank and tell the cops to stop chasing you, thats not the way it works. come on buddy, i know you are getting this.

a lot of bad things happen to many people in this manga, guess what the difference between them and sasuke. go ahead i'll wait.

stop blaming his actions on his sharingan. the sharingan does not control your actions. itachi even after all the things he had to do, kept his sanity and didn't decide to destroy konoha. sure he committed other crimes to cement his cover, but he never went crazy. he still had choices and he choose wrong, plain and simple.

whether he killed or not, that doesn't matter as he still participated in orochimaru's nefarious activities. thats what he did, you really think all he had sasuke do was train that entire time. no, he trained him and used him as one of his subordinates.

the whole him killing orochimaru thing was not because of the things orochimaru did but because sasuke wanted to kill itachi and orochimaru needed his body. that is the only reason he killed him.

doing something good, does not take away the bad, you know that. at least i would think you do.

i was using the one guy thing as an example which still applies. he still murdered people, attacked a shinobi from another village and aided criminals. in this world and NV thats prison time.

 

[holtaa]

You complain about justice? Then destroy Konoha. THAT is justice.

There where innocent civilians in konoha that had nothing to do with the slaughter. Like ramen guy for instance. And killing him/destroying his lively hood is justice? When he played no part?

That is far from justice.

 

[SkyGodHorus]

i don't know why you don't understand that just like ninja, samurai are part of a military. these people have a post to protect, that is their job. sasuke invaded their base/stronghold, and it is there job to eliminate threats to their security.

And Gaara murdered unarmed people left and right because he was pissed off at his father before his brother, sister and sensei deceived the leaf and killed several of its shinobi with Orochimaru. Your point?

Yeah, by charging at someone who harmed none of them, whom they knew was strong and whom they pissed off. That's not how a military works, at least not a democratic one, which most of the villages follow. The Samurai nation being a neutral country only further supports that because they did not support war or conflict. It is nothing more than paralleling the idiot samurai foot soldiers of the sengoku era who did the same exact thing out of stupidity and arrogance. And a strong, organized and rational militia would examine the enemy first or fallback and acquire more intel before engaging.

if you went on a base today carrying a weapon, what do you think is gonna happen?

In my country, I'd be given a warning and restrained to their prison.

they are gonna attack you because this is a restricted area. no matter is they had kim jong un at the base, you can't just infiltrate the base to go kill him.

My pardons, but I do not live in North Korea, I live in the United States of American whose government reflects that of most of the shinobi nations. And in all honestly, considering how many people Kim Jong is starving, killing and torturing right now, I wouldn't be surprised if a rebel did show up at his door and the guard just watched as he walked in.

they will kill you instead for breaking the law. now please understand that as it applies to this situation. got it? moving on.

Your government and militia kill people simply for carrying in a place they shouldn't? I'd hate to live where you live. All the same, we are talking about a sword here, not a gun.

Why are we moving on? Do you feel threatened or shaken by my statements? No, we are not moving on because I have validated myself and you have not debunked that, unless of course you are conceding.

regardless of who said person is, it is their duty to protect their lands. sasuke was the bad guy here, buddy.

I am not your buddy and do not generalize any and every militia when you possess no concept of them and have no idea what you're talking about.

you do not get off the hook for trying to kill somebody just because you claim mental instability.

Gaara and the five villages did apparently. He may have brutally and sadistically killed those guys and at the end of the day I still wouldn't have cared much because he warned them not to and they did not take secure measures.

that doesn't even fly in court anymore. he made a choice to do what he did. he wasn't under a genjutsu or anything, it was his choice.

I'd expect there would be no need for a court in your country if police and militia kill on sight for any crime.

It was their choice as well when he warned them not to.

also it's not my fault kishi made the women in this manga useless, make stupid choices or fawn over people who try to kill them. thats not sexist, thats an observation of an authors portrayal of women.

No, it's your personal and hypocritical opinion brought on by your poor upbringing that all women should be physically and emotionally strong.

It's also not his fault that you are hypocritically sexist and believe all women should be as strong as men rather than just themselves.

Useless is subjective. The most powerful character in this manga, Kaguya is a woman who ended a war by herself. The fifth Hokage and fifth Mizukage are women and have both saved countless lives including the main protagonist as well as reformed their villages. Chiyo defeated Sasori and saved Gaara's life and Sakura helped defeat Sasori and saved Chiyo and Naruto's life as well as Kankuro's. Temari defeated Tayuya. Would you like me to go on? Okay. Konan was a member of Akatsuki and almost killed Obito. Hinata and Sakura motivated Naruto. Sakura helped Naruto and Sasuke learn chakra control. Tsunade revolutionized the shinobi by introducing healing members and healing jutsus to squads. Karin saved Sasuke's life, found danzou for him and destroyed the mokuton buddha statue.

he has no right to tell the samurai to leave him alone. as i have explained before, he is commiting a crim and therefore subject to the consequences of said actions. you can't go rob a bank and tell the cops to stop chasing you, thats not the way it works. come on buddy, i know you are getting this.

Perhaps, perhaps not, but at the end of the day, he warned them not to attack and killed them to defend himself like any human being, which is rational compared to savagely slaughtering them like the Akatsuki would have. In my opinion, a militia shooting to kill one person with a sword with no warning or secure measures for themselves deserves death anyway. A good example lesson in humility for the ones who formed it.

I don't see Gaara being tried for his actions or the sand, mist, cloud or rock. Gaara became the general of the alliance, while his brother and sister became platoon captains and A became commander of the whole alliance. Why? Because they committed deeds and reached a compromise. Sasuke has done the same by helping to defeat Kabuto, releasing edo tensei, bringing back the hokages, saving Naruto's life and helping he and the alliance defeat Obito and Madara, not to mention sealing Orochimaru, releasing his prisoners and killing Deidara.

a lot of bad things happen to many people in this manga, guess what the difference between them and sasuke. go ahead i'll wait.

They all become pardoned by their actions and overlooked by you while for some reason you obsesses over no one else but Sasuke defending himself against an army that attacked him without warning? You sound a bit biased if you ask me and bias and objectivity do not mix.

stop blaming his actions on his sharingan. the sharingan does not control your actions.

According to Tobirama, the sharingan influences emotions, thus I will mention it as many times as I wish, thank you.

itachi even after all the things he had to do, kept his sanity and didn't decide to destroy konoha.

Itachi is one person, not his whole clan. I never stated it effects all the Uchiha, though you could probably argue that even Itachi was influenced by his considering several of his actions in my opinion were not justified and quite radical.

sure he committed other crimes to cement his cover, but he never went crazy. he still had choices and he choose wrong, plain and simple.

You are contradicting yourself again on account that you stated Sasuke was rational when the samurai attacked him, not crazy.

But course you will just overlook Itachi's choices as well as other characters' and villages' and continue to obsess over Sasuke, right?

whether he killed or not, that doesn't matter as he still participated in orochimaru's nefarious activities.

All he did was train. There is no proof that he participated in any of Orochimaru's activities. He didn't even like him, sealed him and released his prisoners in the end.

thats what he did,

No, it is not.

you really think all he had sasuke do was train that entire time. no, he trained him and used him as one of his subordinates.

It's not a matter of thinking, but knowing.

Links or it didn't happen. And do not use the second movie. That is not canon.

the whole him killing orochimaru thing was not because of the things orochimaru did but because sasuke wanted to kill itachi and orochimaru needed his body. that is the only reason he killed him.

Incorrect. Sasuke stated he abhorred Orochimauru's actions.

doing something good, does not take away the bad, you know that. at least i would think you do.

I never stated it takes it away, I said it makes up for it. Do not put words into my mouth when you cannot understand mine.

And this is subjective. I believe doing good deeds can make up for bad deeds as has been shown in this manga with Gaara and the sand siblings, the other villages and even several antagonists including Sasori, Nagato, Konan, Obito, Zabuza, Haku, etc.

i was using the one guy thing as an example which still applies. he still murdered people, attacked a shinobi from another village and aided criminals.

Warning offenders and defending yourself is not murder.

in this world and NV thats prison time.

With all the positive actions they've done in this war, I doubt anyone in this manga will be receiving prison time.

 

[Ultimateone]

And Gaara murdered unarmed people left and right because he was pissed off at his father before his brother, sister and sensei deceived the leaf and killed several of its shinobi with Orochimaru. Your point?

Yeah, by charging at someone who harmed none of them, whom they knew was strong and whom they pissed off. That's not how a military works, at least not a democratic one, which most of the villages follow. The Samurai nation being a neutral country only further supports that because they did not support war or conflict. It is nothing more than paralleling the idiot samurai foot soldiers of the sengoku era who did the same exact thing out of stupidity and arrogance. And a strong, organized and rational militia would examine the enemy first or fallback and acquire more intel before engaging.



In my country, I'd be given a warning and restrained to their prison.



My pardons, but I do not live in North Korea, I live in the United States of American whose government reflects that of most of the shinobi nations. And in all honestly, considering how many people Kim Jong is starving, killing and torturing right now, I wouldn't be surprised if a rebel did show up at his door and the guard just watched as he walked in.



Your government and militia kill people simply for carrying in a place they shouldn't? I'd hate to live where you live. All the same, we are talking about a sword here, not a gun.

Why are we moving on? Do you feel threatened or shaken by my statements? No, we are not moving on because I have validated myself and you have not debunked that, unless of course you are conceding.



I am not your buddy and do not generalize any and every militia when you possess no concept of them and have no idea what you're talking about.



Gaara and the five villages did apparently. He may have brutally and sadistically killed those guys and at the end of the day I still wouldn't have cared much because he warned them not to and they did not take secure measures.



I'd expect there would be no need for a court in your country if police and militia kill on sight for any crime.

It was their choice as well when he warned them not to.



No, it's your personal and hypocritical opinion brought on by your poor upbringing that all women should be physically and emotionally strong.

It's also not his fault that you are hypocritically sexist and believe all women should be as strong as men rather than just themselves.

Useless is subjective. The most powerful character in this manga, Kaguya is a woman who ended a war by herself. The fifth Hokage and fifth Mizukage are women and have both saved countless lives including the main protagonist as well as reformed their villages. Chiyo defeated Sasori and saved Gaara's life and Sakura helped defeat Sasori and saved Chiyo and Naruto's life as well as Kankuro's. Temari defeated Tayuya. Would you like me to go on? Okay. Konan was a member of Akatsuki and almost killed Obito. Hinata and Sakura motivated Naruto. Sakura helped Naruto and Sasuke learn chakra control. Tsunade revolutionized the shinobi by introducing healing members and healing jutsus to squads. Karin saved Sasuke's life, found danzou for him and destroyed the mokuton buddha statue.



Perhaps, perhaps not, but at the end of the day, he warned them not to attack and killed them to defend himself like any human being, which is rational compared to savagely slaughtering them like the Akatsuki would have. In my opinion, a militia shooting to kill one person with a sword with no warning or secure measures for themselves deserves death anyway. A good example lesson in humility for the ones who formed it.

I don't see Gaara being tried for his actions or the sand, mist, cloud or rock. Gaara became the general of the alliance, while his brother and sister became platoon captains and A became commander of the whole alliance. Why? Because they committed deeds and reached a compromise. Sasuke has done the same by helping to defeat Kabuto, releasing edo tensei, bringing back the hokages, saving Naruto's life and helping he and the alliance defeat Obito and Madara, not to mention sealing Orochimaru, releasing his prisoners and killing Deidara.



They all become pardoned by their actions and overlooked by you while for some reason you obsesses over no one else but Sasuke defending himself against an army that attacked him without warning? You sound a bit biased if you ask me and bias and objectivity do not mix.



According to Tobirama, the sharingan influences emotions, thus I will mention it as many times as I wish, thank you.



Itachi is one person, not his whole clan. I never stated it effects all the Uchiha, though you could probably argue that even Itachi was influenced by his considering several of his actions in my opinion were not justified and quite radical.



You are contradicting yourself again on account that you stated Sasuke was rational when the samurai attacked him, not crazy.

But course you will just overlook Itachi's choices as well as other characters' and villages' and continue to obsess over Sasuke, right?



All he did was train. There is no proof that he participated in any of Orochimaru's activities. He didn't even like him, sealed him and released his prisoners in the end.



No, it is not.



It's not a matter of thinking, but knowing.

Links or it didn't happen. And do not use the second movie. That is not canon.



Incorrect. Sasuke stated he abhorred Orochimauru's actions.



I never stated it takes it away, I said it makes up for it. Do not put words into my mouth when you cannot understand mine.

And this is subjective. I believe doing good deeds can make up for bad deeds as has been shown in this manga with Gaara and the sand siblings, the other villages and even several antagonists including Sasori, Nagato, Konan, Obito, Zabuza, Haku, etc.



Warning offenders and defending yourself is not murder.



With all the positive actions they've done in this war, I doubt anyone in this manga will be receiving prison time.

-_- i live in America first of all. i don't know what version of america you think you are living in, or whether you watch a lot of movies or tv shows and think that's the way things are done. Today if you walk on a base with a weapon, in NV there are no guns so a sword is the most they could have, the military personnel will warn you first and if you don't comply they will move to deadly force. good luck with that trying to just get jailed thing for coming there with a weapon and not complying, not gonna happen.

also i didn't expect you did live in north korea, as we probably wouldn't be having this convo. i was using him as an example saying even if America had him at a base, you couldn't just go in there and take out your own form of justice.

apparently i know more about the military than you do. thinking you gonna go to a military base with weapons and think it's gonna be ok. lol

so in this version you live in of the real world, because you yourself stated that ours is similar to the NV way, if you can walk onto a base with a weapon. not only that but if the personnel on said base tells you to stop give up your weapons or whatever else it tells you to do, but you don't so they charge. which means in your mind it's then perfectly acceptable to you to then kill those people, because you warned them, although you are in the wrong for not only being their but carrying a weapon with intent to kill. other than the obvious defending one's self, you would be in the wrong. the only reason you have to defend yourself is because you put yourself in that situation, an highly illegal one at that, which caused guards to take deadly force. i'm sorry but again someone in this world in "America" or in the NV would be in the wrong.

the difference between them and sasuke is that they didn't decide to wipe out a village of innocent people for the actions of a handful.

tobirama basically said that the uchiha are emotionally weak, but that shouldn't be used as an excuse for anybody.

no i'm not contradicting myself. in the manga itachi was viewed as a criminal not just for what he did to his clan, but the things he did for akatsuki. their was no need for me to say anything about that. what i was getting at was that for all the things he did he kept his sanity, even after having to commit horrible crimes. i wasn't pardoning him for anything.

you are under this idea that orochimaru just let him train and sleep for 2 years. you are going to tell me he didn't use him for his crimes, if nothing else but to see the fruits of is labor? but i will concede this point as there is no direct proof.

no, whether he felt orochimaru was a basard or not, he didn't kill him because of that. orochimaru was at the end of the cycle for which he needed to change bodies. sasuke knowing that it meant he was going to try and take his body decided to kill him. all sasuke cared about was going to kill itachi, and that would have stopped him from doing so.

he murdered those samurai, i'm sorry if you can't see that. killing people than doing something good does not make up for the people that have been killed. you think those samurai families care a lot that sasuke decided to join the war efforts. they may care a little as he has helped, but they don't care enough to forgive him for killing those people.

positive actions or not, i don't pretend to know what this manga is gonna do about sasuke.

 

[SkyGodHorus]

-_- i live in America first of all. i don't know what version of america you think you are living in, or whether you watch a lot of movies or tv shows and think that's the way things are done. Today if you walk on a base with a weapon, in NV there are no guns so a sword is the most they could have, the military personnel will warn you first and if you don't comply they will move to deadly force. good luck with that trying to just get jailed thing for coming there with a weapon and not complying, not gonna happen.

I am educated and possess a friend in the military. Television has nothing to do with it.

Thank you for making my point and conceding, as well as contradicting yourself again.

When did I say I wouldn't comply? Not that it matters. The samurai gave out no such warning.

also i didn't expect you did live in north korea, as we probably wouldn't be having this convo. i was using him as an example saying even if America had him at a base, you couldn't just go in there and take out your own form of justice.

You said nothing of the United States in that statement.

the difference between them and sasuke is that they didn't decide to wipe out a village of innocent people for the actions of a handful.

The difference between them is insanity and one person. Gaara killed both innocent and unjust because he was subjugated by his people and it made him hateful and sadistic. The Uchiha were a race of hundreds with their own village, not "a few." The Sand were planning to sack all of Konoha, including its women and children and killed several innocent shinobi under treacherous circumstances simply because Konoha was making more money than them and you believe you can one line all that and say it was just compared to Sasuke defending himself against armed men attacking him with no warning? Threatening a war and forcing innocent shinobi to kill themselves because you are a sore loser and your kidnap attempt of a child under treacherous means failed is also unjust, as is forcing your children to kill each other against their will and siding with a criminal and terrorist organization.

tobirama basically said that the uchiha are emotionally weak, but that shouldn't be used as an excuse for anybody.

Oh yes I'm sorry, someone's mind being supernaturally and traumatically influenced means absolutely nothing, especially when they weren't even the cause of it. Is that what you are going to continue to do? Just say all my points do not matter from now on every time they debunk you? That's very classy.

no i'm not contradicting myself.

You've done it three times now actually.

in the manga itachi was viewed as a criminal not just for what he did to his clan, but the things he did for akatsuki. their was no need for me to say anything about that.

But there was a need for me to mention Gaara and the four other villages apparently.

what i was getting at was...

What you are getting at is nothing Ultimate. Just you continuing to ***** at me to get the last word due to your pride, even though you've already conceded to the main argument and contradicted yourself over and over.

you are under this idea that orochimaru just let him train and sleep for 2 years. you are going to tell me he didn't use him for his crimes, if nothing else but to see the fruits of is labor? but i will concede this point as there is no direct proof.

Thank you for conceding again.

no, whether he felt orochimaru was a basard or not, he didn't kill him because of that. orochimaru was at the end of the cycle for which he needed to change bodies. sasuke knowing that it meant he was going to try and take his body decided to kill him. all sasuke cared about was going to kill itachi, and that would have stopped him from doing so.

Reread chapter 344 before acknowledging that statement.

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You were saying?

he murdered those samurai, i'm sorry if you can't see that.

He did not murder anyone. He was defending himself. Your subjective, superficial view on things does not change that and you have already conceded to the argument so what is the point of going in circles? To piss me off? I am already pissed twenty-four seven. Your bantering to get the last word is not my concern.

killing people than doing something good does not make up for the people that have been killed.

Then perhaps they shouldn't have attacked. Although it appears that way for you considering how easily you leap over the people I mentioned. Yet again a contradiction.

you think those samurai families care a lot that sasuke decided to join the war efforts. they may care a little as he has helped, but they don't care enough to forgive him for killing those people.

The samurai made their choices. They chose to join the militia, harbor corrupted village leaders and attack a formidable foe they knew was formidable without any warning, caution or strategy even when he warned them and harmed none of them prior.

positive actions or not, i don't pretend to know what this manga is gonna do about sasuke.

No, although you pretend he is the spawn of the devil while everyone else in the nartuoverse is an angel.