[Discussion] My overall frustrations with chapter 671 and the series as a whole

[holtaa]

lmao all these comments seriously, ****ers be hungry for some attention. Why comment when you have no intention of doing... anything. Why not leave the discussion to he people who clearly do want to actually participate seeing as the OP put SOME thought into this.

And yeah, sasuke really has bothered me this whole series for pretty much the same reasons. Think i cringed when i read he was getting more power :/

 

[rollin]

you got a misconception when it comes to destiny in naruto

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[NarutoB]

lmao all these comments seriously, ****ers be hungry for some attention. Why comment when you have no intention of doing... anything. Why not leave the discussion to he people who clearly do want to actually participate seeing as the OP put SOME thought into this.

And yeah, sasuke really has bothered me this whole series for pretty much the same reasons. Think i cringed when i read he was getting more power :/

A lot of it seems like unwarranted Sasuke hate.

 

[holtaa]

A lot of it seems like unwarranted Sasuke hate.

If you actually read what the OP said, it's completely warranted.

From me reading the manga and watching the anime ive picked it up. Sasuke has done nothing but pursue his own goals without giving a damn about the repercussions of his actions or anyone else for that matter and he's been greeted with power upon power. Shown nothing but selfishness and its like hes being rewarded for it.

I dont understand why anyone wouldnt hate him lol

 

[KGB Kakuzu]

Your primary angst seems to stem at Sasuke joining Orochimaru. To be honest, I found Sasuke's rational for joining to be pretty stupid given that he easily could have grown in power in Konoha. However, the key point here is that he joins Orochimaru to fulfill his dream: To kill Itachi the man who murdered his clan.

During this time period. He makes actions that likely aid Orochimaru. I'd agree in saying technically, he should be counted as a rogue; however, he ultimately kills Orochimaru which IMO is somewhat redeeming. It shows Sasuke only wanted power. I'd still give him a punishment... but I wouldn't exile him. Like say a few years in prison for aiding in Orochimaru's operations. Something I feel he'd accept provided he was allowed to silence Itachi first.

In the end, we honestly don't know what Sasuke did.... so for all we know he just stayed in that facility and got drugged/trained.


Sasuke's worst sequence is when he starts getting easily swayed, exaggerates his reactions, and ultimately does a double flip flop of actions. Meaning.... 6 people and his clan are responsible for his clan's death..... at most, they should be punished... yet Sasuke thinks he can legitimize killing an entire village. Then after just a few speeches (one of which said increased his hatred)... he wants to be Hokage. Great development character wise in a sense.... it sadly loses that appeal with how extreme the thoughts end up.

And I completely agree about the Destiny argument. Neji was literally on the dot right. By Destiny, Naruto was ironically a destined child of prophecy. He was also to unite the Biju. Hell Neji technically died for the main branch... though he at least looked at it as saving someone he cared about.

You didn't even include the concept of Hard Work. Naruto, Lee, and Hinata probably stand as the three of the rookies who were "hard workers." In the end... Naruto became a "gifted god clan Hokage Destiny child." Lee and Hinata HARDLY improved.... Lee opened one gate (though fair enough given he just went and healed a broken arm and leg in 2 years). Hinata couldn't even use 64 palms until the Juubi arc. Kishi solidly killed that theme... and honestly his last chapter attempts to say, Naruto had to work hard and realize his talents falls short when he's a destined child and still has powerful clan genetics.

 

[MysticLeviathan]

If you actually read the first sentence, I said it would be a long rant. Or you could just scroll down and see how long of a rant it is. It's unfortunate that it seems so many of you have the attention span of a fly.

I'm new here, I'm not whoever that guy is. Just putting that out of the way. And I don't hate Sasuke at all. He pisses me off, but he's an interesting character. I just hate what they're doing to him. It's like they're treating him as if he's still that emo kid from early on in the series who's on the verge of going nuts, but still being able to keep himself in check. He's not anymore. You can't just wreck shit up and pretend it didn't happen. I wouldn't mind nearly as much if he helped with the war with whatever way he could, took some time to reflect, and worked his way to the hearts of the people of the Hidden Leaf. I'd still wish him dead even if he spent 15 years working himself back up, but I could at least tolerate it, accept it, and appreciate the effort he put in to making himself a better person and making the world a better place. But it's as if he's given a free pass after all he's done. It's absolutely disgusting imo.

Unless you read really slow, it shouldn't take you more than a couple minutes to read. It seems most of you are either just lazy or don't want to even read my criticism. I only wrote this because I was wondering what people who enjoyed the series enough to join a forum on the series thought of my comments. ty holtaa for taking the time to read my rant lol

 

[edo tensai wilmaso]

??? what some of you guys are bugged out , sasuke the way he is now is different , before he was just a tool , being used by oro, and tobi, and being played by his older brother. so why wouldn't sasuke go all balistic remember in naruto part 1 he was trying to be an avenger nothing in part 2 changed until he met tobi which basiclly lied and manipulated sasuke... remember what the sage just finished saying he did not want to make the same mistake by giving his power to just one.. i pretty much just think sasuke wants to kill madara for doing all this faqd up stuff.

 

[MysticLeviathan]

Your primary angst seems to stem at Sasuke joining Orochimaru. To be honest, I found Sasuke's rational for joining to be pretty stupid given that he easily could have grown in power in Konoha. However, the key point here is that he joins Orochimaru to fulfill his dream: To kill Itachi the man who murdered his clan.

During this time period. He makes actions that likely aid Orochimaru. I'd agree in saying technically, he should be counted as a rogue; however, he ultimately kills Orochimaru which IMO is somewhat redeeming. It shows Sasuke only wanted power. I'd still give him a punishment... but I wouldn't exile him. Like say a few years in prison for aiding in Orochimaru's operations. Something I feel he'd accept provided he was allowed to silence Itachi first.

In the end, we honestly don't know what Sasuke did.... so for all we know he just stayed in that facility and got drugged/trained.


Sasuke's worst sequence is when he starts getting easily swayed, exaggerates his reactions, and ultimately does a double flip flop of actions. Meaning.... 6 people and his clan are responsible for his clan's death..... at most, they should be punished... yet Sasuke thinks he can legitimize killing an entire village. Then after just a few speeches (one of which said increased his hatred)... he wants to be Hokage. Great development character wise in a sense.... it sadly loses that appeal with how extreme the thoughts end up.

And I completely agree about the Destiny argument. Neji was literally on the dot right. By Destiny, Naruto was ironically a destined child of prophecy. He was also to unite the Biju. Hell Neji technically died for the main branch... though he at least looked at it as saving someone he cared about.

You didn't even include the concept of Hard Work. Naruto, Lee, and Hinata probably stand as the three of the rookies who were "hard workers." In the end... Naruto became a "gifted god clan Hokage Destiny child." Lee and Hinata HARDLY improved.... Lee opened one gate (though fair enough given he just went and healed a broken arm and leg in 2 years). Hinata couldn't even use 64 palms until the Juubi arc. Kishi solidly killed that theme... and honestly his last chapter attempts to say, Naruto had to work hard and realize his talents falls short when he's a destined child and still has powerful clan genetics.

I agree and disagree with you a bit here. I agree that we didn't know exactly what Sasuke was doing, but the fact is he, on his own accord, joined up with a person whose main goal was to destroy the Leaf. I don't get how you could forgive that person at all. And this was WAY before he found out the real story of what happened with the Uchiha clan. I just don't get that.

I disagree about Naruto and hard work. Hinata and Lee, absolutely. They worked their butt off to get where they are. Naruto was gifted with Kurama and a ridiculous amount of chakra. Hell, another thing I forgot to mention was how ridiculously bad the timeskip was. What did he even learn in those 2 and a half years? Did he learn any new moves? Naruto knows transform, shadow clone, rasengan, and what else? And after the time skip, that's still all he knows! And he still needs shadow clones to do the basic rasengan? I feel like Naruto's the rich kid who was able to create a thriving business with the millions he inherited from his parents and I feel like Lee's lower middle class kid who was able to make a very respectable business through his blood, sweat, tears, and patience. I just don't find Naruto to be impressive, and even less so after the timeskip.

I think it's difficult to compare Hinata's situation to Naruto's and Lee's. I feel like Hinata doesn't even want to be a ninja, and the only reason she's a ninja is because it's her duty as the main branch heir or whatever and the fact she wants to be close to Naruto. That's just my opinion about her. I actually like her a lot as a character though.

You do make some interesting points though.

 

[SkyGodHorus]

This will be a long rant I've been wanting to do for a while. I've been wanting to join this site for a while, but registrations had been closed, so I haven't really been able to voice my opinions. I'll be honest, I've been really disliking this series for a while now. I was going to do a long rant a couple chapters ago, but they were very good chapters, so I thought if the ending were good enough, I'd re-evaluate and do the rant at the end. Even if the series had the most amazing ending in the world, the absolute best I could give it is a 7/10. After this most recent chapter, I really doubt I'll be getting that best ending in the world. So I'll be talking about a lot and I wanna hear what you guys think.

Well, you can't please everyone.

In regards to the most recent chapter, I thought it was pretty good. It was a 4/5 in regards to chapter quality. But the ending really pissed me the hell off. How could you give Sasuke any power? After all the shit he did to the village, all the people he killed directly and indirectly, after joining up with a person who Sasuke knew was trying to destroy the Leaf Village and actually followed through with his plans (aka not just bark with no bite),

Technically, the only people Sasuke killed was some of the samurai when they went charging at him like morons after he warned them he was pissed off and would show no mercy if they attacked him. His only target was danzou. It's really not that much different from when those moronic cops shot at Alucard in his hotel room when he did nothing to pre-empt it and continued to shoot at him when he tried to leave. As a consequence, they pissed him off and he sucked them dry. Self-defense in other words lols. And in the end, he saved London from being devoured by the nazi vamps and purged by the Catholics. To parallel this, Sasuke brought back the hokages who helped to defeat Obito and saved the alliance, helped Itachi defeat Obito, sealed Orochimaru and defeated Deidara before combining his power with Naruto to defeat Obito once and for all. Just before the samurai, he refused to harm anyone. He almost killed Karin, but he was unhinged at the time due to Obito and Danzou screwing his head up with their revelations and in the end apologized in addition to saving her from killer bee and amaterasu.

how could you give Sasuke any sort of power? And this was BEFORE he knew what the village did to his clan.

Yeah uh no it wasn't lols. He didn't join Obito until after Itachi died and Obito spilled the beans about it, which messed up his head, which unlocked the mangekyou and unnaturally altered his emotional state even further.

He just joined him just because.

He joined Obito because he thought the leaf were bad and wanted revenge for Itachi and the Uchiha, not just "because."

And to those who said Sasuke didn't kill anyone, you might be right in a direct sense. But he joined up with Orochimaru and went on missions to support his killing.

Actually, Sasuke showed and stated several times that he refused to kill anyone for orochimaru. It was never stated or shown that he went on missions for him, just that he trained and lived in his hideout. The second movie is not canon and I don't recall Sasuke killing anyone in it anyway if that's what you're referring to.

It's no different than saying a war general committed crimes against humanity even though he didn't directly hurt anyone.

Well, the manga isn't over yet. Naruto and Sasuke may still fight and not all the villages may accept him.

To me, this is giving the idea that if a bratty little kid whines enough and starts breaking enough shit, he'll eventually get his way, and that would be totally okay.

He didn't break anything. He trained his ass off for three years and refused to kill anyone except Itachi until Obito revealed the truth and in the end acted in self defense against the samurai.

It would be one thing if Sasuke were still in his emo phase before joining up with Orochimaru, but after that point, he shouldn't' be treated as anything other than a rogue ninja and killed when given the chance. How could you ever give Sasuke this kind of power let alone even forgive him? This is a MAJOR issue I have with the series that's not just exclusive to this situation.

I'd say Sasuke's more than made up for what he's done with what he did for the alliance.

Kishi gives this idea that being too nice, while can be problematic, is perfectly ok, but the opposite is evil in itself. That applies to Hiruzen vs. Danzo. You have Danzo who is incredibly conservative to the point of being an obstructionist and will kill anyone and do anything to get his way. At the other side, you have Hiruzen who basically let Orochimaru go even though he knew what would happen. Why is it that Hirzuen gets a TOTAL slide for his actions towards the Orochimaru situation?

Hiruzen could predict the future? Since when?

Because Hiruzen gave his life to protect the village and in the end defeated Orochimaru by sealing his hands while inspiring all the genins and instructing the sannin. One of which instructed Naruto and Minato and the other which became the world's greatest healer and the fifth Hokage. Hiruzen regarded Orochimaru as his son and like most fathers, couldn't bring himself to harm him.

This series just seems to have this skewed concept of reality where love and forgiveness will conquer all. That's true to an extent. There comes a point where you love and forgiveness becomes a problem and you have to take a hard line stance towards some things, but Naruto doesn't seem to be capable of doing that.

How are love and forgiveness a problem? And not everyone has loved and forgiven.

Yes, Danzo was a douche, but Hiruzen did more than his fair share of things that hurt the village.

And made up for it when he gave his life and defeated Orochimaru. He also tried to stop the Uchiha massacre, instructed the sannins, inspired the genins and brought a sixty year peace to Konoha and most of the other villages. I'd say he did way more good than bad and I don't blame him at all for not killing Orochimaru the first time.

As I said, I'd have no problme giving Sasuke that power if this was before he joined up with Orochimaru. But after he crossed that line, the very least I'd do to him is exile him from the Leaf.

You are aware Sasuke hated Orochimaru and his actions and ideals and in the end fought and sealed him correct? He only went to him for training and refused to kill anyone for him.

That goes into another problem I have with the whole "Cycle of Hatred" BS. This whole series goes into how revenge continues the cycle of hatred. But you know what else continues the cycle of hatred? Not serving justice when it's deserved. How would a person feel if his best friend in the entire world was killed on a mission against Sasuke, later to find out Sasuke had been totally pardoned?

The only people sasuke has killed was the samurai and it is their own fault for charging at him when he warned them not to. And no one has said sasuke is pardoned now.

What would Naruto say to the dead man's friend?

Your friend was an idiot. Well, probably not, but I might.

What would Naruto say to the dead man's parents?

You shouldn't have let him become a shinobi without taking into account the possibilities?

That killing the man who murdered your son in cold blood would continue the cycle of hatred?

Sasuke has never killed anyone in cold blood. Itachi on the other hand killed all the women and children of the Uchiha, not just the men, yet you probably put him on a pedestal, right? Not killing the murderer would create a new cycle of hatred. When you have a chance to serve justice, it's your duty to do so. Not only is it wrong not to, but it basically takes a giant shit on all the people who suffered because of the criminal.[/quote]

Justice is subjective.

Now we get into the whole "destiny" thing. Remember when Neji was telling Naruto how fate controls you and Naruto was all like "I make my own fate", how do you think that looks now? When Neji was made to look like the bad guy, he was right all along.

Not really. Naruto had to work hard to achieve what he has.

It's incredibly frustrating to see someone made to look so bad and then be proven right in the very end.

How exactly was he proven right? Naruto was called a weak dropout and had to work for several years to become strong like everyone else. Neji was implied to be destined to win the chunnin exam and become a clan leader and a legendary shinobi, but he was defeated by Naruto and killed by the Juubi.

And what makes it even more frustrating was he changed becuase of that whole conversatino with Naruto, but he was right all along. So even as far back as the Chunin exams have we been seeing this BS.

It's a paradox. Naruto is the chosen one, but no one knew it until now and he had to work hard for it to happen. You shouldn't call things bullshit simply because you do not understand them and you've miscomprehended quite a few things in your critique so you're in no position to say it is.

I've just been really frustrated with the series for a while now. I think it has one of the most interesting premises, but it's really become obnoxious with the whole "striving for world peace, end the cycle of hatred" bullshit.

Well, you can't please everyone as I've already stated. All the same, the cycle of hatred and world peace concept has been present and central to the series since the beginning. And I believe it encompasses real world strife quite well.

It seems like for every thing it gets right, it gets 2 things wrong. I just don't even know what to feel about the series anymore. I mean it is a shonen so it's going to give a 12 year old's outlook on the world of "if you're kind enough, all of the problems in the world will go away, but it seems like Nartuo's been by far the worst offender.

Nothing has stated all the problems in the world will go away yet.

Do you guys agree with me?

Nope.

Think I'm talking out of my ass.

Not exactly. I just think you miscomprehended a few things or that some of the themes just aren't your taste.

I'm curious what you guys think of the series as a whole.

I'll give my overall critique of the series once it's finished.

It's been pretty epic lately, but all this love and peace crap keeps popping up and ends up being a total buzzkill.

Maybe you should try reading some seinen instead, like Berserk.

 

[Mr Hiru]

Let me know what you think.

I believe you're wrong with the rant. You need more perspective to evaluate the current status of the manga.

Under the perspective of the shinobis in the war (specifically Konoha) Sasuke can't be trusted because everyone know about his actions. There is no kage that could openly trust in Sasuke. Kishimoto hasn't failed to expose this.

But under the perspective of Hagoromo, Sasuke IS HIS SON (just like Naruto) and HE AS A FATHER did a mistake when he did not trust in the power of cooperation giving Indra a part of his will.

Sasuke is recieving a powerup of Hagoromo not because Sasuke deserves it or not, but because Hagoromo wants to end the cycle of hatred using the renewed perspective given my Ashura, the power of cooperation.

We are still not in the end of the series (but going towards it), so you should be a little more patient and see how the shinobi world reacts after Sasuke and Naruto stops the onslaught.

I guess that should be the most wise thing you could do.

Summary: Maybe it's a better idea to have the rant after the series end.

 

[Shinigami King]

I read your whole rant (I am a very fast and effective reader) and I can say that I agree. First, you must take into consideration what the genre Shonen implies, and that is teenage boy gets granted power and becomes plot mover. That is the premise of ALL shonens in a nutshell. Bleach, One Piece, Death Note, and many others, they are all shonens. So when the guy is the plot mover, THE guy that will make a difference you cant expect him to die unless they pull the anti-hero "plot-twist", you can't expect him to lose without winning round two or three etc. (loss = no moving forward in plot even if character development does move forward), and you can't expect him not to be the exception to the rule. The last one is a little vague but think about what that may mean. EVERY shonen HAS to have it.

With that explained I can move onto what Naruto could have done to ease the annoyances from typical shonens.
1. Plot progression and pace (why one piece is considered the best shonen)
2. Character entertainment (again, why one piece excels against naruto)
3. Emotion and main character dynamics (Naruto gets this one right somehow)
4. Premise (Naruto had a very good lore which is worth getting invested into unlike other shows)
5. Giving the allusion that everything is expendable (No show/manga tries this one)
optional one 6. Give an intriguing dilemma (moral or other types) and have an interesting character deal with it UNIQUELY.

I can't really tell you the proper balance because there isn't one, but I can say that your case of being fed up with the manga is more personal than anything. You have a problem with the moral answer to the dilemma so really, this manga can't really give you any deep satisfaction no matter the outcome unless they punish Sasuke. I am sorry that you can't look past the moral aspect and just focus on something else to help yourself endure to the end of this show with some satisfaction because I had dealt with the same thing a while back. I no longer look to the moral aspect and focus on the character relationship of Naruto and Sasuke and the idea of what they are capable of if they become friends. They would be unstoppable. The dilemma there is that now the Kages would have to deal with that and likely aren't capable of forcing anything. You could say that it would be another case of Madara and Hashi but that is where my hope begins, that Kishi will make it different for Naruto and Sasukes relationship.

That is what I focus on now.

 

[whiteout77721]

This will be a long rant I've been wanting to do for a while. I've been wanting to join this site for a while, but registrations had been closed, so I haven't really been able to voice my opinions. I'll be honest, I've been really disliking this series for a while now. I was going to do a long rant a couple chapters ago, but they were very good chapters, so I thought if the ending were good enough, I'd re-evaluate and do the rant at the end. Even if the series had the most amazing ending in the world, the absolute best I could give it is a 7/10. After this most recent chapter, I really doubt I'll be getting that best ending in the world. So I'll be talking about a lot and I wanna hear what you guys think.

In regards to the most recent chapter, I thought it was pretty good. It was a 4/5 in regards to chapter quality. But the ending really pissed me the hell off. How could you give Sasuke any power? After all the shit he did to the village, all the people he killed directly and indirectly, after joining up with a person who Sasuke knew was trying to destroy the Leaf Village and actually followed through with his plans (aka not just bark with no bite), how could you give Sasuke any sort of power? And this was BEFORE he knew what the village did to his clan. He just joined him just because. And to those who said Sasuke didn't kill anyone, you might be right in a direct sense. But he joined up with Orochimaru and went on missions to support his killing. It's no different than saying a war general committed crimes against humanity even though he didn't directly hurt anyone.

To me, this is giving the idea that if a bratty little kid whines enough and starts breaking enough shit, he'll eventually get his way, and that would be totally okay. To me, that's totally not okay. It would be one thing if Sasuke were still in his emo phase before joining up with Orochimaru, but after that point, he shouldn't' be treated as anything other than a rogue ninja and killed when given the chance. How could you ever give Sasuke this kind of power let alone even forgive him? This is a MAJOR issue I have with the series that's not just exclusive to this situation.

Kishi gives this idea that being too nice, while can be problematic, is perfectly ok, but the opposite is evil in itself. That applies to Hiruzen vs. Danzo. You have Danzo who is incredibly conservative to the point of being an obstructionist and will kill anyone and do anything to get his way. At the other side, you have Hiruzen who basically let Orochimaru go even though he knew what would happen. Why is it that Hirzuen gets a TOTAL slide for his actions towards the Orochimaru situation? This series just seems to have this skewed concept of reality where love and forgiveness will conquer all. That's true to an extent. There comes a point where you love and forgiveness becomes a problem and you have to take a hard line stance towards some things, but Naruto doesn't seem to be capable of doing that. Yes, Danzo was a douche, but Hiruzen did more than his fair share of things that hurt the village. As I said, I'd have no problme giving Sasuke that power if this was before he joined up with Orochimaru. But after he crossed that line, the very least I'd do to him is exile him from the Leaf.

That goes into another problem I have with the whole "Cycle of Hatred" BS. This whole series goes into how revenge continues the cycle of hatred. But you know what else continues the cycle of hatred? Not serving justice when it's deserved. How would a person feel if his best friend in the entire world was killed on a mission against Sasuke, later to find out Sasuke had been totally pardoned? What would Naruto say to the dead man's friend? What would Naruto say to the dead man's parents? That killing the man who murdered your son in cold blood would continue the cycle of hatred? If my child were brutally murdered by someone and the government just pardoned him, I'd be absolutely FURIOUS. Not killing the murderer would create a new cycle of hatred. When you have a chance to serve justice, it's your duty to do so. Not only is it wrong not to, but it basically takes a giant shit on all the people who suffered because of the criminal.

Now we get into the whole "destiny" thing. Remember when Neji was telling Naruto how fate controls you and Naruto was all like "I make my own fate", how do you think that looks now? When Neji was made to look like the bad guy, he was right all along. It's incredibly frustrating to see someone made to look so bad and then be proven right in the very end. And what makes it even more frustrating was he changed becuase of that whole conversatino with Naruto, but he was right all along. So even as far back as the Chunin exams have we been seeing this BS.

I've just been really frustrated with the series for a while now. I think it has one of the most interesting premises, but it's really become obnoxious with the whole "striving for world peace, end the cycle of hatred" bullshit. It seems like for every thing it gets right, it gets 2 things wrong. I just don't even know what to feel about the series anymore. I mean it is a shonen so it's going to give a 12 year old's outlook on the world of "if you're kind enough, all of the problems in the world will go away, but it seems like Nartuo's been by far the worst offender. Do you guys agree with me? Disagree with me? Think I'm talking out of my ass. I'm curious what you guys think of the series as a whole. It's been pretty epic lately, but all this love and peace crap keeps popping up and ends up being a total buzzkill. I know I've missed a whole bunch of my thoughts so my arguments might not make as much sense as they could. Let me know what you think.

What the hell has sasuke done to the village almost everyone he killed was an akatsuki and to Danzo he attacked him first so he had a right to kill him other than that sasuke has killed villains and has helped the village especially during the war if it wasn't for him Naruto would have dieds already from obito as the juubi jinchuriki. they would have never stopped him Naruto would have given up plus they only beat him because of kurama susanoo thanks to sasuke with out sasukes help obito would have stayed evil and the world lost

 

[Cwill94]

Didn't read, but some valid points you've got there.

 

[Ultimateone]

Well, you can't please everyone.



Technically, the only people Sasuke killed was some of the samurai when they went charging at him like morons after he warned them he was pissed off and would show no mercy if they attacked him. His only target was danzou. It's really not that much different from when those moronic cops shot at Alucard in his hotel room when he did nothing to pre-empt it and continued to shoot at him when he tried to leave. As a consequence, they pissed him off and he sucked them dry. Self-defense in other words lols. And in the end, he saved London from being devoured by the nazi vamps and purged by the Catholics. To parallel this, Sasuke brought back the hokages who helped to defeat Obito and saved the alliance, helped Itachi defeat Obito, sealed Orochimaru and defeated Deidara before combining his power with Naruto to defeat Obito once and for all. Just before the samurai, he refused to harm anyone. He almost killed Karin, but he was unhinged at the time due to Obito and Danzou screwing his head up with their revelations and in the end apologized in addition to saving her from killer bee and amaterasu.



Yeah uh no it wasn't lols. He didn't join Obito until after Itachi died and Obito spilled the beans about it, which messed up his head, which unlocked the mangekyou and unnaturally altered his emotional state even further.



He joined Obito because he thought the leaf were bad and wanted revenge for Itachi and the Uchiha, not just "because."



Actually, Sasuke showed and stated several times that he refused to kill anyone for orochimaru. It was never stated or shown that he went on missions for him, just that he trained and lived in his hideout. The second movie is not canon and I don't recall Sasuke killing anyone in it anyway if that's what you're referring to.



Well, the manga isn't over yet. Naruto and Sasuke may still fight and not all the villages may accept him.



He didn't break anything. He trained his ass off for three years and refused to kill anyone except Itachi until Obito revealed the truth and in the end acted in self defense against the samurai.



I'd say Sasuke's more than made up for what he's done with what he did for the alliance.



Hiruzen could predict the future? Since when?

Because Hiruzen gave his life to protect the village and in the end defeated Orochimaru by sealing his hands while inspiring all the genins and instructing the sannin. One of which instructed Naruto and Minato and the other which became the world's greatest healer and the fifth Hokage. Hiruzen regarded Orochimaru as his son and like most fathers, couldn't bring himself to harm him.



How are love and forgiveness a problem? And not everyone has loved and forgiven.



And made up for it when he gave his life and defeated Orochimaru. He also tried to stop the Uchiha massacre, instructed the sannins, inspired the genins and brought a sixty year peace to Konoha and most of the other villages. I'd say he did way more good than bad and I don't blame him at all for not killing Orochimaru the first time.



You are aware Sasuke hated Orochimaru and his actions and ideals and in the end fought and sealed him correct? He only went to him for training and refused to kill anyone for him.



The only people sasuke has killed was the samurai and it is their own fault for charging at him when he warned them not to. And no one has said sasuke is pardoned now.



Your friend was an idiot. Well, probably not, but I might.



You shouldn't have let him become a shinobi without taking into account the possibilities?



Sasuke has never killed anyone in cold blood. Itachi on the other hand killed all the women and children of the Uchiha, not just the men, yet you probably put him on a pedestal, right? Not killing the murderer would create a new cycle of hatred. When you have a chance to serve justice, it's your duty to do so. Not only is it wrong not to, but it basically takes a giant shit on all the people who suffered because of the criminal.

Justice is subjective.



Not really. Naruto had to work hard to achieve what he has.



How exactly was he proven right? Naruto was called a weak dropout and had to work for several years to become strong like everyone else. Neji was implied to be destined to win the chunnin exam and become a clan leader and a legendary shinobi, but he was defeated by Naruto and killed by the Juubi.



It's a paradox. Naruto is the chosen one, but no one knew it until now and he had to work hard for it to happen. You shouldn't call things bullshit simply because you do not understand them and you've miscomprehended quite a few things in your critique so you're in no position to say it is.



Well, you can't please everyone as I've already stated. All the same, the cycle of hatred and world peace concept has been present and central to the series since the beginning. And I believe it encompasses real world strife quite well.



Nothing has stated all the problems in the world will go away yet.



Nope.



Not exactly. I just think you miscomprehended a few things or that some of the themes just aren't your taste.



I'll give my overall critique of the series once it's finished.



Maybe you should try reading some seinen instead, like Berserk.

before i specifically reply to skygod let me reply to the op, you are right in almost everything you said. sasuke was a rouge ninja who plotted to destroy an entire village and everyone in it. all that to get back at several people who do not make up the sum of konoha i might add. he killed samurai, and aided a known fugitive by joining his ranks. he may have killed said fugitive, only to gain his power i might add, but he then revives him. luckily for him orochimaru decides not to continue his evil ways, for now.

but as for the hard working thing, i agree and disagree. the prophecy wasn't truly set in stone. because there was two prophecies which depending on certain choices could go either way. but to even further elaborate, even for those things to happen naruto had to be a hard worker. he had to start from the bottom, and believe me he was at the bottom alone. then to go to the top and achieve everything he has. so neji was right and wrong, as even though there was a prophecy, he still had to work hard to achieve it. just because someone can see the future does not take away from hard work. if i was the sage i wouldn't have given sasuke a power-up as i know he is easily swayed, and rewarding indras bloodline with more power because they keep starting wars is not smart. you don't give a child what they want because they threw a fit, you smack them across the head and tell them stop being babies.

now on to skygod,sasuke killed samurai after invading their lands and entering restricted areas to assassinate one of their guess. they were well within their right to defend their homeland/base from intruders which sasuke was.the didn't know his intentions, just he was an enemy who infiltrated their base and had attacked people. sasuke was def in the wrong, no if and or butts about it. also all of a sudden if you were going to brutally kill somebody but didn't get to because somebody can and stopped you, it's ok as long as you say sorry. that makes no sense buddy, karin should have been done with him. but again kishi makes stupid women characters.

so sasuke gets the ok for his actions because people told him the truth and he decided to murder people? ok buddy lol.

he was going to kill everyone in the village, almost all of which knew nothing of what happened with his clan or had anything to do with it. he didn't care, he saw their happiness and decided he didn't want them happy because itachi died. sasuke is crazy.

it doesn't matter, he aided a known fugitive to konoha to gain power. all of orochimaru's "pupils" help in things he wants done. they do different things, we just don't know what they were, but they cant be good.

it was not self defense against the samurai, he was an invader!

just because sasuke got another speech from somebody and changed his mind again shouldn't get him off any hook. those crimes he committed are still crimes. a murderer doesn't get away because he helped somebody fight this one guy, he still gets punished for his crimes.

i'm done for now, sleep time.

 

[davidou]

Arrrrr , that isn't a sexy text , don't want to read this block of lament.
Sorry.

 

[King Of Pop]

gaara kkilled pple when he was psycho and now hes a kage yet u dont rant about how he is forgiven and accepted despite what he did, but u choose to single out sasuke???

 

[Orochimagus]

The point of the mythology Kishi follows is that you need good and bad to function as a whole. I am pretty sure Sasuke gave Hagoromo a prickish answer that keeps him as a villain but that it was exactly what the Sage needed to hear for balance purposes. Yin and Yang, brah.

 

[Kadmos1]

Actually, using my OpenOffice Writer, the word count was 1086.

 

[ktruon5]

One thing Kishi did do is prove Neji's Destiny talk right... Do to Ashura and Indra, Naruto and Sasuke were destined to walk different paths

 

[Sarahmint]

But you know what else continues the cycle of hatred? Not serving justice when it's deserved.

This was the last line I read before having to stop and respond to how incredibly ironic a thing for you to say at this point.

You go on about how inappropriate Sasuke's behavior is and how he betrayed the village. The village is so corrupt and so evil that it drove his entire family to the ground only to have one of the Uchiha murder their own. Konoha is responsible for genocide and readers are surprised Sasuke wanted to change Hebi to Taka to destroy it.

You complain about justice? Then destroy Konoha. THAT is justice.