MS Sasuke vs Bee

[TRE MERCER]

Post 37* was horrible.​

 

[Lytes]

Post *41 is horrible

 

[KidGamer65]

Forgot about Samehada. B should win.

 

[TRE MERCER]

Post *41 is horrible

Who are you? What was your previous name? I see you and all your slick post l00l.​

Bee wins, speed blitz, Sasuke couldn't even track his normal movements with MS.

BRUHHHH​

 

[Haizaki]

Elaborate on the condition: I assume this leaves out both versions of Tsukuyomi and Obito's Genjutsu of Yagura, for it if it doesn't, then the claim "Illusions won't work on a host who can control their tailed beast" is incorrect. ​

Tsukoyomi is pretty much irrelevant because the length is what prevents it...Not that it can't be broken so that still stands. I could argue that you have no evidence but an assumption that the Mizukage could control his own Beast perfectly like B at that point. Unless there's one?

Leaving that aside, Obito being able to catch him in a Genjutsu was a feat that shocked Kisame despite him knowing about the eyes. Hence in a bad scenario where he had perfect control like B, there's no evidence about the rest being able replicate the same since this is an exception considering Kisame said "to be able to with just your eye power alone, who exactly are you?". Meaning other forms still fall in the category of being broken once casted on the user till the show otherwise.

Could it not be argued that during the situation of the Gyūki breaking Killer B free from Sasuke's Genjutsu, that Sasuke could layer another Genjutsu onto the Genjutsu the Gyūki is attempting to break B free of to increase the time the Gyūki has to take to free B? Moreover, what is the probability, if any, of Sasuke Genjutsu'ing the Gyūki itself during the situation of the Gyūki of breaking Killer B free from Genjutsu? ​

Probably the most confusing point but no this strategy shouldn't be plausible. How would Sasuke even know the Genjutsu is being broken until it eventually happens? Because that happens quickly. Which means there won't be another layer. How would he use a new Genjutsu on an opponent who's in a Genjutsu? How does this work? Not sure I got this entirely well because I'm not sure how he'll Genjutsu them both but:

1. Constant chakra manipulation means Sasuke would always be disrupted once he tries to put Killer B in a Genjutsu because there would be a third party involved as B's chakra would be tempered with.

2. Samehada.

Naruto becoming a perfect jinchūriki and never being hit with a Genjutsu is a completely different matter entirely and using it for a premise or additional claim to support the conclusion that the Gyūki interference with Genjutsu to free Killer B from Genjutsu is a flawed analogical argument in which a person focuses more on the similarities of a thing or things than the dissimilarities, ad thus, not accurately defining the matter.​

No..That was just an example to hint at the fact that Kishi made it clear that Genjutsu was useless upon becoming one. Which is why we saw that being exempted even when they fought because we knew the result already. Just a supporting point.

@Tre Go try someone else and quit coming on my lane. Take a look at your sig..What a disgrace of a kid.

 

[Unorthodox]

Shark skin could tip the scale.

 

[TRE MERCER]

@Tre Go try someone else and quit coming on my lane. Take a look at your sig..What a disgrace of a kid.

What are you talking about? Your offended by my sig? KG got you trained well.

OT- Samehada will only be a big factor if Bee can fuse with​

 

[Varrah]

Tsukuyomi is pretty much irrelevant because the length is what prevents it...Not that it can't be broken so that still stands.

Relevance in argument is a broad term that the criticism of being irrelevant may refer to to many kinds of failures or shortcomings in an argument. Having reread the thread, and the posts therein, particularly my post, I can say the claim "Tsukuyomi is pretty much irrelevant" is an incorrect inference as Tsukuyomi isn't a failure or shortcoming in my argument that can prompt the criticism that a breach of relevance has been committed in argument for these reasons: Tsukuyomi is an important feature of this thread as it is Genjutsu and the thread itself, among its posters, such as yourself, presuppose a context in dialogue in which there is an issue or issues being discussed—which is true.

Tsukuyomi and perfect jinchūrikis' is a topic that can discussed in length for either. I do think that the portrayal and features of Tsukuyomi are stronger than those of the perfect jinchūrikis' to Genjutsu if I do not add the possibility that the bijū/host realm is timeless. My response changes if the bijū/host realm can proven, or we assume it to be true. ​

I could argue that you have no evidence but an assumption that the Mizukage could control his own Beast perfectly like B at that point.

By all means go ahead and produce an argument for your position, but be wary of something: first, it was stated Yagura was generally known to have controlled a bijū and that control is

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to be that of a perfect jinchūrikis'.​

Leaving that aside, Obito being able to catch him in a Genjutsu was a feat that shocked Kisame despite him knowing about the eyes.

Kisame's shock could be attributed to having an inkling of the Sharingan's powers.​

Hence in a bad scenario where he had perfect control like B, there's no evidence about the rest being able replicate the same since this is an exception considering Kisame said "to be able to with just your eye power alone, who exactly are you?". Meaning other forms still fall in the category of being broken once casted on the user till the show otherwise.

I assume "the rest" refers to the other Uchiha, namely: Itachi, Sasuke, and Madara? If this is the reference, then the issue of perfect jinchūrikis' and Genjutsu is still arguably and becomes more delicate for these reasons: the author has never showed the relationship between a Genjutsu from an Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan, which increases the strength of the Sharingan's hypnotism, and perfect jinchūrikis', the relationship between Tsukuyomi and perfect jinchūrikis', and the relationship between Genjutsu atop other Genjutsus' and perfect jinchūrikis'. Now before I am misunderstood, or a poster like Proof jumps the gun with his assumptions: I am saying that I understand the portrayal of perfect jinchūrikis' suggest that perfect jinchūrikis' are invulnerable to Genjutsu, except for Mūgen Tsukuyomi and Obito if we count him, but there are instances where this portrayal becomes...questioned because of Tsukuyomi and Itachi layering another Genjutsu onto Izanami to make Kabuto to undo Edo Tensei. ​

Probably the most confusing point but no this strategy shouldn't be plausible.

It is possible, but is completely dependent upon Sasuke's abilities.​

How would Sasuke even know the Genjutsu is being broken until it eventually happens?

The Sharingan perceives chakra: Killer B's chakra flow would change from regular to irregular to regular again—if Sasuke can act during the period where B's chakra flow is irregular he can place another Genjutsu onto the previous Genjutsu.​

Because that happens quickly.

If Killer B's bout with Itachi is any indication, then Sasuke placing another Genjutsu onto the existing is plausible, considering that Itachi had enough time to do some action before the Gyūki broke B free from the Genjutsu. However be mindful of the fact that the action Sasuke takes doesn't necessarily have to be a Genjutsu. It can be what Sasuke thinks is the most optimal: a Genjutsu is but answer among many.​

Which means there won't be another layer.

Please refer to the previous response.​

How would he use a new Genjutsu on an opponent who's in a Genjutsu? How does this work?

When a Genjutsu it causes distress in the recipient's chakra: if the Genjutsu is successful, then the recipient succumbs to the effect or effects of the Genjutsu that was used; during this incapacitation, the recipient's chakra is in disarray making them more susceptible to Genjutsu; the user of the Genjutsu can choose to select another Genjutsu, whatever its effect, to place the recipient under as they suffer or attempt to recover from the previous Genjutsu. Itachi showcased this during the finale of his bout with Kabuto where he placed another Genjutsu onto Izanami that orchestrated Kabuto to dispel Edo Tensei. ​

Constant chakra manipulation means Sasuke would always be disrupted once he tries to put Killer B in a Genjutsu because there would be a third party involved as B's chakra would be tempered with. And Samehada.

Again, if Killer B's bout with Itachi, or Sasuke's first bout with B for that matter, is any indication, then is a duration where the Gyūki interferes with the Genjutsu which decides when B can act again not counting Samehada. If Sasuke takes into account Samehada in conjunction with the Gyūki, then there are two interferences' with their own attributes that decide when B can act again in the event B is caught in a Genjutsu. It may seem extreme, unconventional, and perhaps devious, but Sasuke could place the Gyūki, and Samehada in a Genjutsu while B is in a Genjutsu. The questions this specific tactic hinders on is: can Samehada be placed in a Genjutsu, and can Sasuke enter the metaphysical sphere where the Gyūki is?​

 

[TheUnbiasedOne]

Samehada isn't very useful when you can't merge. For Him to get close enough would mean to risk a shot of an arrow. Anyway, I should have restricted, but I find it obvious that you wouldn't give Bee Samehada, but it wasn't very helpful in any battles.

 

[Draegod]

lol This is alllll assuming Bee makes Direct Eye contact while Fighting when there are over 1000 scenes where a ninja fought an uchiha and wasn't caught over and over and over or even caught.. And even when placed in MS genjutsu he was still able to function and even attack. Any genjutsu Sasuke has ever shown is useless, stop comparing him to Itachi let alone Obito who far surpass both in power and control (3 tails and 100% Kyubi).

 

[Unorthodox]

lol This is alllll assuming Bee makes Direct Eye contact while Fighting when there are over 1000 scenes where a ninja fought an uchiha and wasn't caught over and over and over or even caught

Because everytime an uchiha fight they must have used genjutsu?

And even when placed in MS genjutsu he was still able to function and even attack. Any genjutsu Sasuke has ever shown is useless, stop comparing him to Itachi let alone Obito who far surpass both in power and control (3 tails and 100% Kyubi).

When? When Sasuke caught him bee lost all momentum and fell to the floor that is not functioning under a genjutsu.

Obito controlling a perfect jin is a great feat however controlling Kurama is not when 3 tomoe was shown to control it.

 

[History]

lol This is alllll assuming Bee makes Direct Eye contact while Fighting when there are over 1000 scenes where a ninja fought an uchiha and wasn't caught over and over and over or even caught.. And even when placed in MS genjutsu he was still able to function and even attack. Any genjutsu Sasuke has ever shown is useless, stop comparing him to Itachi let alone Obito who far surpass both in power and control (3 tails and 100% Kyubi).

There have been many ninja who have fought uchiha and have not fallen prey to genjutsu true but Bee is not one of those ninjas, He fought two ninja from that clan and fell prey to genjutsu both times by Itachi and Sasuke what changes in this scenario?

OT - Sasuke most likely wins but Killerbee can pull through iffy matchup.

 

[BLAZE]

Bee Outlasts him

lol This is alllll assuming Bee makes Direct Eye contact while Fighting when there are over 1000 scenes where a ninja fought an uchiha and wasn't caught over and over and over or even caught..

Yeah like Uchiha's need Genjutsu in every fight
@bold Bee did against both Sasuke and Itachi

And even when placed in MS genjutsu he was still able to function and even attack. Any genjutsu Sasuke has ever shown is useless, stop comparing him to Itachi let alone Obito who far surpass both in power and control (3 tails and 100% Kyubi).

Oh i thought he was parlyzed and fell to the ground until Eight tails helped Bee to break but Okay i will like to see ur claim for bolded

 

[Braiyan]

Bee already broke an MS genjutsu from Sasuke easily. That's what led to him blindsiding Sasuke with a Lariat. So why is genjutsu being debated as a significant factor here?

 

[Apêx1]

Lol at people acting like Genjutsu isn't effective versus Bee. He's fought Uchiha's twice and looked into Uchiha eyes twice. Almost every opponent that has fought with an Uchiha has been put into Genjutsu. Itachi vs Orochimaru=Genjutsu, Itachi vs Naruto=Genjutsu on 3 different occasions, Itachi vs Kakashi=Genjutsu Itachi vs Deidara=Genjutsu, Itachi vs Kurenai, Itachi vs Kabuto even though he has no eye sight=still caught in Genjutsu, Sasuke vs Itachi=Genjutsu, Itachi vs Bee=Genjutsu, Sasuke vs Deidara=Genjutsu, Sasuke vs Danzo=Genjutsu, Sasuke vs Bee=Genjutsu, Sasuke vs Cee=Genjutsu, etc. Genjutsu is a huge factor in fights and pretty much everyone gets put into Genjutsu, people always use that shitty argument of "he doesn't need to look at his eyes" but time and time again the manga shows that Genjutsu is almost guaranteed in every fight with an Uchiha. Sasuke uses Genjutsu and then Bee finds himself engulfed by an Enton v3 Susano hand.

 

[Ambivalence]

Not saying Sasuke wins, but I've always found it interesting how Genjutsu is completely ignored in any situation in all of the VS debates. Everyone just assumes nobody looks in an Uchiha's eyes, even though canon has shown the exact opposite 95% of the time, literally the only exceptions being:

- Gai's strategy way back in part 1.
- Team 7 vs 30% Itachi, where Sharingan genjutsu basics were still explained.
- DSM Kabuto who sealed his vision.

The only argument I've ever seen made w/ genjutsu that people actually agreed with was back in the ''EMS Madara (V4 only) vs 3rd Raikage'' thread, where the grab, pick up and genjutsu strategy was widely accepted.

 

[Apêx1]

Not saying Sasuke wins, but I've always found it interesting how Genjutsu is completely ignored in any situation in all of the VS debates. Everyone just assumes nobody looks in an Uchiha's eyes, even though canon has shown the exact opposite 95% of the time, literally the only exceptions being:

- Gai's strategy way back in part 1.
- Team 7 vs 30% Itachi, where Sharingan genjutsu basics were still explained.
- DSM Kabuto who sealed his vision.

The only argument I've ever seen made w/ genjutsu that people actually agreed with was back in the ''EMS Madara (V4 only) vs 3rd Raikage'' thread, where the grab, pick up and genjutsu strategy was widely accepted.

People don't like to believe that Genjutsu can be a potential K.O. technique.

 

[Draegod]

Because everytime an uchiha fight they must have used genjutsu?



When? When Sasuke caught him bee lost all momentum and fell to the floor that is not functioning under a genjutsu.

Obito controlling a perfect jin is a great feat however controlling Kurama is not when 3 tomoe was shown to control it.

When Sasuke caught Bee bee was in the air and not ground level for a shunshin. When sasuke caught Bee-Bee was not aware at that time nor did he care. But when Sasuke used his best Genjutsu He had his neck and chest blown off no diff while Bee was still in Genjutsu.

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So this not only Shows the Genjutsu was weak for a ninja like bee, but also shows he is still able to function enough for his Bijuu to break him out soon after.

There have been many ninja who have fought uchiha and have not fallen prey to genjutsu true but Bee is not one of those ninjas, He fought two ninja from that clan and fell prey to genjutsu both times by Itachi and Sasuke what changes in this scenario?

OT - Sasuke most likely wins but Killerbee can pull through iffy matchup.

True when Bee fought Sasuke and Itachi he had no idea (since he has never seen them before), But it was not in the beginning and it didnt matter in the end. Bee was only caught by sasuke because he was literally in the air, Itachi caught bee because he is Itachi (that is his fighting style for the most part).

Bee Outlasts him
Yeah like Uchiha's need Genjutsu in every fight
@bold Bee did against both Sasuke and Itachi
Oh i thought he was parlyzed and fell to the ground until Eight tails helped Bee to break but Okay i will like to see ur claim for bolded

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[Draegod]

Lol at people acting like Genjutsu isn't effective versus Bee. He's fought Uchiha's twice and looked into Uchiha eyes twice. Almost every opponent that has fought with an Uchiha has been put into Genjutsu. Itachi vs Orochimaru=Genjutsu, Itachi vs Naruto=Genjutsu on 3 different occasions, Itachi vs Kakashi=Genjutsu Itachi vs Deidara=Genjutsu, Itachi vs Kurenai, Itachi vs Kabuto even though he has no eye sight=still caught in Genjutsu, Sasuke vs Itachi=Genjutsu, Itachi vs Bee=Genjutsu, Sasuke vs Deidara=Genjutsu, Sasuke vs Danzo=Genjutsu, Sasuke vs Bee=Genjutsu, Sasuke vs Cee=Genjutsu, etc. Genjutsu is a huge factor in fights and pretty much everyone gets put into Genjutsu, people always use that shitty argument of "he doesn't need to look at his eyes" but time and time again the manga shows that Genjutsu is almost guaranteed in every fight with an Uchiha. Sasuke uses Genjutsu and then Bee finds himself engulfed by an Enton v3 Susano hand.

1. Oru wasn't trying to fight Itachi on a serious level, he was trying to steal his body. Plus he literally was about to break out no diff, which is why Itachi cut his hand.
2. Naruto??? A Kid with the worse chakra control until he started training serious???? Naruto of all ppl speaks for everyone?
3. Kakashi Literally allowed himself to be caught in Tsukuyomi (manga fact), and the second time he literally allowed his CLONE TO BE CAUGHT. What is there to talk about???
4. A young Deidara who literally had no idea what an uchiha was? lol
5. Kurenai was already in the genjutsu realm and itachi used Genjutsu reverse. Soooooo where is your example?
6. Izanami on Kabuto when Kabuto would have slolo'd him on multiple occasions if not for sasuke? Really???? lmao
7. Sasuke and itachi's fight was purposely a genjutsu battle for sasuke to show Itachi he is beyond his illusions. He literally walked in there and fought with his eyes asap!!
8. Itachi vs Bee when they were all talking? And no one was fighting seriously and he still broke out? lol ok
9. Deidara vs sasuke is the worse example since Deidara wanted to be caught and that was his plan (fact) just to break it no diff.
10. Old man Danzo who didnt have his Sharingan active and who wasn't even worrying about sasuke because he planed on fighting Tobi afterwards? lol He literally underestimated sasuke on purpose and still almost won despite having major handicaps.
11. Sasuke and bee has already been explained and it still meant nothing to bee (his best genjutsu btw)
12. Cee was literally focused on Aye and Juugo, and sasuke used that opp to close in and catch him from a foot's distance. bad example.


70% of the examples you used held Zero ground and the other 30% was Kids or ppl who knew nothing of Uchiha. What about all the other times a ninja was not caught asap or period with in the manga? Exactly!

Enton and Ama' on every level is useless as Either Cloak protects and dispels the flames. So please come with another argument. No Susanoo blade besides PS (or madara anything.lol) will ever break through V2 cloak. And Susanoo isn't strong enough to Crush be either (unless you have some feats besides a old man named Danzo). Danzo will literally run circles around Sasuke who cannot maintain Susanoo for long periods let alone use 2 MS techs at the same time. Bee literally counters everything that is Sasuke. You list something and I will counter it! Go!