MS Kakashi vs MS Itachi

[ToshiZO]

Him not even having MS activated before the arrow was launched hypes up the activation speed of the jutsu. This is a debate of quick draw after all.

 

[Booker]

Assuming they start in base, Kakashi gets the warp off before Itachi can do anything meaningful.

Spoiler

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As we can see here, Sasuke fired off these Susano'o arrows while Kakashi still clearly had his 3-T activated in his Sharingan.

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After Sasuke's arrows had already been fired, Kakashi was able to activate his MS, prep Kamui, and then warp both of the arrows before they traveled a distance of like, 50 meters.

Kamui is way too hax. Even if they aren't starting in base I would posit that Kakashi beats out the Amaterasu attack.

 

[EZQ]

Assuming they start in base, Kakashi gets the warp off before Itachi can do anything meaningful.

Spoiler

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As we can see here, Sasuke fired off these Susano'o arrows while Kakashi still clearly had his 3-T activated in his Sharingan.

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After Sasuke's arrows had already been fired, Kakashi was able to activate his MS, prep Kamui, and then warp both of the arrows before they traveled a distance of like, 50 meters.

Kamui is way too hax. Even if they aren't starting in base I would posit that Kakashi beats out the Amaterasu attack.

It seems Itachi matching Sasuke in doing it against Kidomaru's web with no parameter to tell how much the web travelled is = to that feat.

Despite Kamui being faster, it's out of character for both to start the fight like that. If it ever comes to that, Kakashi would win, if it's not against a clone feint, and the same with Itachi burning a clone..

 

[Booker]

It seems Itachi matching Sasuke in doing it against Kidomaru's web with no parameter to tell how much the web travelled is = to that feat.

Despite Kamui being faster, it's out of character for both to start the fight like that. If it ever comes to that, Kakashi would win, if it's not against a clone feint, and the same with Itachi burning a clone..

Not exactly, since as far as I'm aware, Itachi and Sauce already had their MS activated.

Kamui start is boring, it's true. If we assume Kakashi doesn't go for the Kamui snipe at the start (which would be a no intel fight, no way in hell Kakashi sits on Kamui for a while when fighting Itachi) Itachi still loses. Kakashi can force the Susano'o, and since Itachi has no feats using bunshins with Susano'o, it's Kamui snipe GG from there.

 

[EZQ]

Not exactly, since as far as I'm aware, Itachi and Sauce already had their MS activated.

Kamui start is boring, it's true. If we assume Kakashi doesn't go for the Kamui snipe at the start (which would be a no intel fight, no way in hell Kakashi sits on Kamui for a while when fighting Itachi) Itachi still loses. Kakashi can force the Susano'o, and since Itachi has no feats using bunshins with Susano'o, it's Kamui snipe GG from there.

I was being sarcastic. It's the argument that's being used..

 

[Waltz]

It seems Itachi matching Sasuke in doing it against Kidomaru's web with no parameter to tell how much the web travelled is = to that feat.

Despite Kamui being faster, it's out of character for both to start the fight like that. If it ever comes to that, Kakashi would win, if it's not against a clone feint, and the same with Itachi burning a clone..

Why does Amaterasu need to have been faster than Kidomaru's web when the web wasn't attacking them directly to begin with? ​

Not exactly, since as far as I'm aware, Itachi and Sauce already had their MS activated.

Kamui start is boring, it's true. If we assume Kakashi doesn't go for the Kamui snipe at the start (which would be a no intel fight, no way in hell Kakashi sits on Kamui for a while when fighting Itachi) Itachi still loses. Kakashi can force the Susano'o, and since Itachi has no feats using bunshins with Susano'o, it's Kamui snipe GG from there.

How?​

 

[Zexion~]

I don't see why people use the "Itachi was dying" argument for the fact that Amertarasu took forever to charge against Sasuke when dying Kakashi used his Kamui in seconds, perhaps its a difference in the way the jutsu works but still.

However I still believe that there is a difference and its not improbable at all to say that Itachi could have charged the Amertarasu before he actually needed it in a battle...

 

[Booker]

Why does Amaterasu need to have been faster than Kidomaru's web when the web wasn't attacking them directly to begin with? ​

How?​

Bunshin feints and general skill in Ninjutsu and Taijutsu? Kakashi has more than enough skill to at least push Itachi to Amaterasu, which is going to be hard countered by Bunshin feints and Kamui. Granted he doesn't have anything on the Kirin scale to literally force out the Susano'o from immediate desperation, rather from Itachi just being whittled down to a few options to end the fight quickly.

 

[Waltz]

Bunshin feints and general skill in Ninjutsu and Taijutsu? Kakashi has more than enough skill to at least push Itachi to Amaterasu, which is going to be hard countered by Bunshin feints and Kamui. Granted he doesn't have anything on the Kirin scale to literally force out the Susano'o from immediate desperation, rather from Itachi just being whittled down to a few options to end the fight quickly.

Now if at 50 meters Itachi creates a flock of Karasu Bunshin and conceals himself within them along with 2 explosive clones then has the flock approach Kakashi and each of his Bunshin's individually from various directions simultaneously Kakashi can't risk the clones getting close enough for the explosive clones to blow him up or for the Original Itachi concealed within them to hit him with Tsukuyomi nor can he focus on one Karasu at a time because if another one incoming from a different angle is the original Itachi he would be hit with Amaterasu. Kakashi has no solution to this that wouldn't reveal his original self and once that becomes eventful Itachi will win the match. ​

 

[Booker]

Now if at 50 meters Itachi creates a flock of Karasu Bunshin and conceals himself within them along with 2 explosive clones then has the flock approach Kakashi and each of his Bunshin's individually from various directions simultaneously Kakashi can't risk the clones getting close enough for the explosive clones to blow him up or for the Original Itachi concealed within them to hit him with Tsukuyomi nor can he focus on one Karasu at a time because if another one incoming from a different angle is the original Itachi he would be hit with Amaterasu. Kakashi has no solution to this that wouldn't reveal his original self and once that becomes eventful Itachi will win the match. ​

First of all, Itachi has nowhere near enough chakra to support this strategy. He may be able to pull it off, but splitting his chakra among that many clones would essentially be suicide if it fails.

Which it will be, since Kakashi can counter this with smoke and Hiding like a Mole Jutsu. Once the clones go off on Kakashi's Bunshin feints, Itachi will have just split his chakra down into at least a quarter (judging by how many bunshins you stated in your argument). From there Itachi will definitely need to resort to a desperation Susano'o to try and end it quickly.

 

[Waltz]

First of all, Itachi has nowhere near enough chakra to support this strategy. He may be able to pull it off, but splitting his chakra among that many clones would essentially be suicide if it fails.

Which it will be, since Kakashi can counter this with smoke and Hiding like a Mole Jutsu. Once the clones go off on Kakashi's Bunshin feints, Itachi will have just split his chakra down into at least a quarter (judging by how many bunshins you stated in your argument). From there Itachi will definitely need to resort to a desperation Susano'o to try and end it quickly.

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@Bold:
The Sharingan can see chakra color through solid ground so Hiding like a mole would not work and a smoke bomb isn't chakra infused.

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Since Itachi can see Kakashi and/or his clones in the ground, it means that he simply as to wait because if Kakashi risks emerging from the ground he could be ignited with Amaterasu instantly or if Itachi is within close enough proximity he would simly hit him with Tsukyomi and camping is no issue as the flock of Karasu would simply hover until they emerge from he ground.​

 

[Booker]

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@Bold:
The Sharingan can see chakra color through solid ground so Hiding like a mole would not work and a smoke bomb isn't chakra infused.

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Since Itachi can see Kakashi and/or his clones in the ground, it means that he simply as to wait because if Kakashi risks emerging from the ground he could be ignited with Amaterasu instantly or if Itachi is within close enough proximity he would simly hit him with Tsukyomi and camping is no issue as the flock of Karasu would simply hover until they emerge from he ground.​

And this is all happening before Kakashi can get off a Kamui snipe?

 

[Waltz]

And this is all happening before Kakashi can get off a Kamui snipe?

Well, as I said...Kakashi has no solution to this that wouldn't reveal his original self and once that becomes eventful Itachi will win the match. ​

 

[Booker]

Well, as I said...Kakashi has no solution to this that wouldn't reveal his original self and once that becomes eventful Itachi will win the match. ​

I disagree.

My original statement of them starting in base was assuming that they'd start off with a few bunshin feints and some taijutsu.

Really, if Itachi begins to try anything you mentioned here, there's no reason to believe Kakashi won't snipe him on the spot, especially with intel. He's sniped larger targets faster.

 

[Forbidden Technique]

Kakashi's kamui could warp Sakura, Naruto and Gaara's sand together when they were nearby in the war. When Itachi creates his KBs, he is usually not far off from the clone, so there is a chance he'd get warped regardless. Besides Kakashi managed to see through Itachi's bunshin feint in part1. Infact Kakashi won the clone battles both times they had it. Kakashi's defensive techniques(doton: hiding mole, doton wall) also works better against Amaterasu(which will be blocked) than the latter who has no visible defense against a penetrative warping eye like Kamui

That was because Naruto was laying on the sand cloud with Sakura kneeling directly over him. That's not the same thing as Itachi spawning a bunshin a meter or so directly in front of him. Itachi has never canonically fought Kakashi all out with the intention of killing him. His purpose in part 1 was to capture Naruto, not pointlessly fight and kill a bunch of Konohas most notable Jonin, whom he still secretly had some allegiance to. Early part 2, he was fighting at 30% of his capacity with purpose of stalling Kakashi and company. Itachi's extremely quick jutsu execution and skill set with the intention of actually killing his opponent is a complete different animal that we unfortunately never got to see.

Spoiler

Comfortably or not, in KG's scan we see blood in their faces, meaning blood came down at some point. And with my scan it's proved that the blood comes before the flames are fired. Lack of scans doesn't mean things didn't happen.

So, let me explain to you what i mean here:

KG take a read here, i guess you are countering my post with the same nonsense you've been saying about this subject..

-Kamui and Amaterasu both spawn on target

-They do not spawn instantly what i mean here is that there's a charge time in between "okay i'm gonna use kamui/amaterasu" and the jutsu ejecuting

- Kakashi's charge times is shorter than the time a susano arrow covers a short distance

- Itachi's charge time is unknown, but we have indications:

a- The blood comes down and then Amaterasu is fired

b- Itachi's charge time is shorter than the time Kidomaru's webs cover a short distance. (This feat is nothing compared to Kakashi's). Nevertheless, Itachi could've started the bleed out (Started tha charge for amaterasu) when the web was 0.00001 m from the poing where it clahsed with the flames, and if it were like that, then Itachi's feat would be > Kakashi even agaisnt a slower target, since the slower target travelled a lot less distance, meanin less time, BUT, there's no parameter here, and the feat as it is, is below Kakashi's. The only legit indication we have is blood coming down every single time ITACHI used amaterasu. Some times the panel sequence is:

Target ---> Itachi with blood already on his chick ----> the flames are fired

Does it mean the blood spawned in Itachi's face? No. It has already been indicated that first the blood comes down and then the fire comes out. It just didn't get drawn.

And i'm not saying Itachi always uses as much time as he used against Hebi sasuke, i just used that scan to show the bleeding thing.

I pretty much agree that Kamui has shown to be faster. I was simply stating that Amaterasu doesn't require the user to close their eyes, nor does it have to be performed as slow as in the scan you posted. Amaterasu took several panels to be initiated and used in the scan you presented, while it took one panel to be initiated and used when there was an actual sense of urgency against Kabuto.

Assuming they start in base, Kakashi gets the warp off before Itachi can do anything meaningful.

Spoiler

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As we can see here, Sasuke fired off these Susano'o arrows while Kakashi still clearly had his 3-T activated in his Sharingan.

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After Sasuke's arrows had already been fired, Kakashi was able to activate his MS, prep Kamui, and then warp both of the arrows before they traveled a distance of like, 50 meters.

Kamui is way too hax. Even if they aren't starting in base I would posit that Kakashi beats out the Amaterasu attack.

The Susano'o arrows being too fast for Kakashi to make a physical reaction doesn't equate to the same for Itachi. As far as my memory serves, Itachi is the only one in the manga who was shown to be able to weave hand seals too fast for a 3T Sharingan to pick up on. Not once, but twice he accomplished that feat. Then we have the fact that Kakashi must go from base to MS, and not 3T to MS. I don't see how Kakashi accomplishes this before Itachi spawns a Karusu Bunshin and/or Shunshin's out of Kakashi's LoS.

 

[Waltz]

I disagree.

My original statement of them starting in base was assuming that they'd start off with a few bunshin feints and some taijutsu.

Really, if Itachi begins to try anything you mentioned here, there's no reason to believe Kakashi won't snipe him on the spot, especially with intel. He's sniped larger targets faster.

Except...none of that proves that Kamui is faster than everything in Itachi's arsenal highlighting a due consideration for distance.​

 

[Booker]

That was because Naruto was laying on the sand cloud with Sakura kneeling directly over him. That's not the same thing as Itachi spawning a bunshin a meter or so directly in front of him. Itachi has never canonically fought Kakashi all out with the intention of killing him. His purpose in part 1 was to capture Naruto, not pointlessly fight and kill a bunch of Konohas most notable Jonin, whom he still secretly had some allegiance to. Early part 2, he was fighting at 30% of his capacity with purpose of stalling Kakashi and company. Itachi's extremely quick jutsu execution and skill set with the intention of actually killing his opponent is a complete different animal that we unfortunately never got to see.



I pretty much agree that Kamui has shown to be faster. I was simply stating that Amaterasu doesn't require the user to close their eyes, nor does it have to be performed as slow as in the scan you posted. Amaterasu took several panels to be initiated and used in the scan you presented, while it took one panel to be initiated and used when there was an actual sense of urgency against Kabuto.



The Susano'o arrows being too fast for Kakashi to make a physical reaction doesn't equate to the same for Itachi. As far as my memory serves, Itachi is the only one in the manga who was shown to be able to weave hand seals too fast for a 3T Sharingan to pick up on. Not once, but twice he accomplished that feat. Then we have the fact that Kakashi must go from base to MS, and not 3T to MS. I don't see how Kakashi accomplishes this before Itachi spawns a Karusu Bunshin and/or Shunshin's out of Kakashi's LoS.

Oh, duh. Completely forgot that base isn't 3T. Just took that for granted.

Assuming it's base and not 3T, I agree with your points. Save that last part. I don't think Itachi is going to be able to Shunshin out of a Kamui warp, his hand seals have little to do with his movement speed. But yes, Itachi could likely get some Bunshins out before a Kamui warp, so he could block it that way. From there he would have to avoid staying stationary or activating techs like Ama or Susano'o, because Kamui is going to beat those out.

In fact, I'd posit that Hiding Like A Mole jutsu would still work on Itachi. The Sharingan can see chakra through things like the Earth, but it's likely something the user has to focus on to do. Hence why Kakashi used the tech twice to fool two Dojutsu users - one of them being Itachi.

 

[Booker]

Except...none of that proves that Kamui is faster than everything in Itachi's arsenal highlighting a due consideration for distance.​

Of course Kamui is faster that what you just mentioned. The only way Itachi counters this is with his superior hand seal speed, not movement speed. If he gets a clone out in front of him to block Kamui, that would work.

But Hiding Like A Mole and bunshins is still a counter to Itachi here, just because Dojutsu users are able to see chakra through material doesn't mean it's always active. Kakashi has pulled this stunt against Dojutsu twice before, one of them actually being Itachi with the Sharingan active.

Once he gets the drop on Itachi with Bunshins and Kamui, it's over for Itachi. The only benefit he had here was the intel to block a Kamui snipe with a clone right off the bat.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

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@Bold:
The Sharingan can see chakra color through solid ground so Hiding like a mole would not work and a smoke bomb isn't chakra infused.

Spoiler

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Since Itachi can see Kakashi and/or his clones in the ground, it means that he simply as to wait because if Kakashi risks emerging from the ground he could be ignited with Amaterasu instantly or if Itachi is within close enough proximity he would simly hit him with Tsukyomi and camping is no issue as the flock of Karasu would simply hover until they emerge from he ground.​

hidling like mole already worked on itachi. and technically sasuke was already in genjutsu during that scan.

 

[Waltz]

hidling like mole already worked on itachi. and technically sasuke was already in genjutsu during that scan.

Read the OP and if true, this is relevant because?​