MS Kakashi vs MS Itachi

[lelerskates]

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Nope.

-If Kakashi starts with Kamui and Itachi starts with Amaterasu, Itachi wins.
-If Kakashi doesn't start with Kamui, Itachi wins.

youre using edo feats. not the same thing. Kamui is faster, Kakashi wins.

 

[KidGamer65]

It's not a fanfiction if we're talking about living Itachi who has MS since 8years or so, so with already having eye backslashes. It's for that reason the range of his amaterasu is described as close in the databook(he needs to get close for it to be effective)

Unless Itachi is blind or near blind he'll be able to see Kakashi's form from 50m away. And we know he's not blind or near blind. And why would the character's limitations have anything to do with the range a jutsu is assigned in the DB? Who told you that's how it worked?

 

[KidGamer65]

youre using edo feats. not the same thing. Kamui is faster, Kakashi wins.

I didn't know that infinite stamina and an undying body changed how techniques are built up. :lol

 

[makosheva7]

Not sure about this match up. Kakashi can just Kamui Itachi's Susano'o. Itachi beats Kakashi in CQC. Clone feints will be almost useless with full intel. Full intel also means Tsukuyomi isn't going to happen. Kakashi will also be aware of Amaterasu so he'll just spam clones to try to have Itachi focus on a clone of him.

Kakashi has a much more diverse set of jutsu. But Itachi is a friggin genius.

5/10 match split for both of them.

 

[KidGamer65]

So what are you suggesting here? Kakashi doesn't prepare for Tsukuyomi, a jutsu which KO'd him before and despite him preparing for Genjutsu in canon, pretty much at the start of his battle against Itachi [

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]? Kakashi knows more than anyone how dangerous his Genjutsu is, and clones against this specific opponent is crucial in his strategy. What you're saying is he basically ignores Itachi's potency in Genjutsu because he already knows how he fights, which is irrelevant to the overall point in avoiding genjutsu as a whole. Choza also states he knew his opponents ability before making the clone feint... it's called tactics. You prepare for specific situations with specific abilities. This situation calls for clones.

Kakashi's stamina improved a whole lot during the war arc. Itachi doesn't have the ability to spam his MS techs anyways, so Kakashi doesn't need to spam clones like you're suggesting. All he needs to do is get over the eventual Tsuku/Ama attempt, either by getting off Kamui first of by manoeuvring around them with his tricks.

The warp process is near instant though, as seen when Kakashi warped Naruto's clone and the Mazo's arm. Kakashi warped much larger objects at fractions of a second, never mind a small body part like a limb which would require much less chakra build up as opposed to Itachi's bleeding eye.

No, I'm saying he prepares for jutsu far more dangerous than Tsukuyomi instead of wasting time preparing for Tsukuyomi knowing his preparation won't mean a thing when Itachi decides not to use Tsukuyomi and decides to use something else instead. :lol I know very well what tactics are and you definitely aren't using them properly. You keep mentioning Genjutsu yet you gave him intel on things far more dangerous than Genjutsu.

I never said he'd spam clones. I never even suggested the idea of clones in Kakashi's case. Itachi doesn't need to spam anything here either. This battles goes one of the following ways:

-FT's way, in which Itachi beats him because Kamui is pretty much handled and Itachi can deal with the rest of his arsenal including more Kamui attempts once he's been able to survive the first attempt.
-Itachi and Kakashi quickdraw their fastest techniques, and the faster one wins.
-Kakashi starts off w/ Kamui and Itachi dies because he doesn't start w/ Ama.
-Itachi starts w/ Ama and Kakashi dies because he didn't start off with Kamui.

It's not. Him warping Naruto's clone isn't a near instant feat. You could literally see his Rasengan deforming in the panel.

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And Obito had time to initialize his own Kamui in response to Kakashi's despite him going last, so there's no way that his Kamui is anywhere close to instant or fast enough to warrant the label "near instant".

And the Mazo's arm is a speed feat for the summoning jutsu as the teleportation from that outsped Kamui. Not the other way around.

 

[EZQ]

The eyes don't need to close, there's plenty of examples of this. And there is big difference between when a jutsu needs to be used immediately in a sense of urgency (KG's scan) and when it can be comfortably casted (Your scan).

Comfortably or not, in KG's scan we see blood in their faces, meaning blood came down at some point. And with my scan it's proved that the blood comes before the flames are fired. Lack of scans doesn't mean things didn't happen.

So, let me explain to you what i mean here:

KG take a read here, i guess you are countering my post with the same nonsense you've been saying about this subject..

-Kamui and Amaterasu both spawn on target

-They do not spawn instantly what i mean here is that there's a charge time in between "okay i'm gonna use kamui/amaterasu" and the jutsu ejecuting

- Kakashi's charge times is shorter than the time a susano arrow covers a short distance

- Itachi's charge time is unknown, but we have indications:

a- The blood comes down and then Amaterasu is fired

b- Itachi's charge time is shorter than the time Kidomaru's webs cover a short distance. (This feat is nothing compared to Kakashi's). Nevertheless, Itachi could've started the bleed out (Started tha charge for amaterasu) when the web was 0.00001 m from the poing where it clahsed with the flames, and if it were like that, then Itachi's feat would be > Kakashi even agaisnt a slower target, since the slower target travelled a lot less distance, meanin less time, BUT, there's no parameter here, and the feat as it is, is below Kakashi's. The only legit indication we have is blood coming down every single time ITACHI used amaterasu. Some times the panel sequence is:

Target ---> Itachi with blood already on his chick ----> the flames are fired

Does it mean the blood spawned in Itachi's face? No. It has already been indicated that first the blood comes down and then the fire comes out. It just didn't get drawn.

And i'm not saying Itachi always uses as much time as he used against Hebi sasuke, i just used that scan to show the bleeding thing.

 

[KCN]

No, I'm saying he prepares for jutsu far more dangerous than Tsukuyomi instead of wasting time preparing for Tsukuyomi knowing his preparation won't mean a thing when Itachi decides not to use Tsukuyomi and decides to use something else instead. :lol I know very well what tactics are and you definitely aren't using them properly. You keep mentioning Genjutsu yet you gave him intel on things far more dangerous than Genjutsu.

I never said he'd spam clones. I never even suggested the idea of clones in Kakashi's case. Itachi doesn't need to spam anything here either. This battles goes one of the following ways:

-FT's way, in which Itachi beats him because Kamui is pretty much handled and Itachi can deal with the rest of his arsenal including more Kamui attempts once he's been able to survive the first attempt.
-Itachi and Kakashi quickdraw their fastest techniques, and the faster one wins.
-Kakashi starts off w/ Kamui and Itachi dies because he doesn't start w/ Ama.
-Itachi starts w/ Ama and Kakashi dies because he didn't start off with Kamui.

It's not. Him warping Naruto's clone isn't a near instant feat. You could literally see his Rasengan deforming in the panel.

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And Obito had time to initialize his own Kamui in response to Kakashi's despite him going last, so there's no way that his Kamui is anywhere close to instant or fast enough to warrant the label "near instant".

And the Mazo's arm is a speed feat for the summoning jutsu as the teleportation from that outsped Kamui. Not the other way around.

That's pretty pointless to mention, as clones are counters to pretty much anything if used correctly. From Amaterasu to Genjutsu etc.. Kakashi uses them in conjunction with his other techniques, that's all. Not sure why you've scoped in on clones being pointless at the beginning when they're obviously not, as seen in his own battle against Itachi the second time around where they were pretty useful. Whether he uses Amaterasu or another technique; if it's a clone, it's useless.

Kamui had to be timed there, but there are more instances here. Susano'os arrow being warped [

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] despite Kakashi needing to activate MS post release and then warp it. Considering the arrows speed, and it already being released, as well as Kakashi's inexperience with the jutsu at the time makes it near enough to instant. Like I said, warping a much smaller object like Itachi's head will take far less time than that, considering it needs less build up. The Mazo's arm was still warped, despite being slower than an instantaneous technique, because that's what it is. Losing out to speed to instant isn't a knock on Kamui, considering Kakashi still managed to hit it somehow.

Kakashi also warped Naruto's rasengan pretty much instantly;

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The distance between Naruto's hand and Obito's face is pretty much the same in both of those panels. This, is despite Naruto being in mid travel.

 

[super yang]

Itachi blitzes kakashi

 

[lelerskates]

I didn't know that infinite stamina and an undying body changed how techniques are built up. :lol

We are going by actual feats. When you show me a living version of him being able to use it without a charge time then i will take you seriously. until then you always try to pass off your opinions as fact. edo changes a lot when it comes to feats and if you wanna be blind about it to try to make the argument convenient for so be it, but you're wrong.

 

[Zexion~]

I'd say that if the battle is allowed to continue without the one shots being used right off the bat Kamui has a higher chance of hitting Itachi than Amertarasu does Kakashi.

 

[KidGamer65]

That's pretty pointless to mention, as clones are counters to pretty much anything if used correctly. From Amaterasu to Genjutsu etc.. Kakashi uses them in conjunction with his other techniques, that's all. Not sure why you've scoped in on clones being pointless at the beginning when they're obviously not, as seen in his own battle against Itachi the second time around where they were pretty useful. Whether he uses Amaterasu or another technique; if it's a clone, it's useless.

Kamui had to be timed there, but there are more instances here. Susano'os arrow being warped [

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] despite Kakashi needing to activate MS mid travel and then warp it. Considering the arrows speed, and it already being released, it's pretty damn fast. Like I said, warping a much smaller object like Itachi's time will take far less time than that, considering it needs less build up. The Mazo's arm was still warped, despite being slower than an instantaneous technique, because that's what it is. Losing out to speed to instant isn't a knock on Kamui, considering Kakashi still managed to hit it somehow.

Yeah. They were useful against an Itachi who couldn't even use his MS. Obviously there is no point in mentioning that. A clone feint doesn't counter anything. A clone feint is Kakashi escaping from an attack one time. Once his initial clone feint fails hard he's done nothing but waste his chakra when he could be using his chakra to do things more useful than make a clone. Making a clone at the beginning and swapping out like he did against Pain accomplishes nothing at all. The only thing it does is let him feel out the opponent. Against Itachi using Kamui from the start, whether offensively to warp him or to teleport or something like that is a million times more likely than using a clone that he knows will literally accomplish nothing at the end of the day.

The claim "Kakashi always uses clones from the start" doesn't make sense because he doesn't. It's purely circumstantial.

Nope.. Kamui's activation had to be timed. After the activation whatever happens is it's actual speed feats. Kakashi being able to control the warp speed of Kamui is based on nothing. Kamui opens a warp barrier. Susanoo arrow running into that barrier and being warped doesn't mean that the warping process occurred faster than the arrow could travel from that particular scenario. Especially given his feat against Obito.

Mentioning the Mazo is pointless as again, the only reason that was considered to be one of Kamui's top speed feats is because it supposedly outsped the warping process of the summoning jutsu. But it didn't, so all you have is a feat of him warping the arm with little to no build up. That Mazo feat is equivalent to me bringing the scan of Sasuke using Amaterasu on Kaguya, and then it appearing immediately after. (Yet somehow Kamui is going to massively outspeed Amaterasu)

And the less build up point doesn't help you because the difference in activation time when it comes to objects isn't even existent outside of Kakashi needing to build up chakra to warp a PS sized object. Simply comparing when he warped the arrows, when he warped the arm of the Mazo and when he warped Kaguya's Ash Bones away tells you that much.

Kakashi also warped Naruto's rasengan pretty much instantly;

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The distance between Naruto's hand and Obito's face is pretty much the same in both of those panels. This, is despite Naruto being in mid travel.

No, it isn't the same. In terms of positioning Naruto's hand is right where his Rasengan was initially after the warp is done. That's a few inches ahead and Naruto wasn't moving fast to begin with.

And it's not shown when Kamui is initiated.

 

[KidGamer65]

We are going by actual feats. When you show me a living version of him being able to use it without a charge time then i will take you seriously. until then you always try to pass off your opinions as fact. edo changes a lot when it comes to feats and if you wanna be blind about it to try to make the argument convenient for so be it, but you're wrong.

Edo changes nothing besides what it's stated to change. Anything else is you making dumb excuses. Don't quote me again.

 

[Lord Tywin]

Kakashi shits if he gets around 20m from Itachi

 

[ToshiZO]

Gross. Eye opens GG vs Eye opens GG.

 

[KCN]

Yeah. They were useful against an Itachi who couldn't even use his MS. Obviously there is no point in mentioning that. A clone feint doesn't counter anything. A clone feint is Kakashi escaping from an attack one time. Once his initial clone feint fails hard he's done nothing but waste his chakra when he could be using his chakra to do things more useful than make a clone. Making a clone at the beginning and swapping out like he did against Pain accomplishes nothing at all. The only thing it does is let him feel out the opponent. Against Itachi using Kamui from the start, whether offensively to warp him or to teleport or something like that is a million times more likely than using a clone that he knows will literally accomplish nothing at the end of the day.

The claim "Kakashi always uses clones from the start" doesn't make sense because he doesn't. It's purely circumstantial.

Nope.. Kamui's activation had to be timed. After the activation whatever happens is it's actual speed feats. Kakashi being able to control the warp speed of Kamui is based on nothing. Kamui opens a warp barrier. Susanoo arrow running into that barrier and being warped doesn't mean that the warping process occurred faster than the arrow could travel from that particular scenario. Especially given his feat against Obito.

Mentioning the Mazo is pointless as again, the only reason that was considered to be one of Kamui's top speed feats is because it supposedly outsped the warping process of the summoning jutsu. But it didn't, so all you have is a feat of him warping the arm with little to no build up. That Mazo feat is equivalent to me bringing the scan of Sasuke using Amaterasu on Kaguya, and then it appearing immediately after. (Yet somehow Kamui is going to massively outspeed Amaterasu)

And the less build up point doesn't help you because the difference in activation time when it comes to objects isn't even existent outside of Kakashi needing to build up chakra to warp a PS sized object. Simply comparing when he warped the arrows, when he warped the arm of the Mazo and when he warped Kaguya's Ash Bones away tells you that much.

Useful against an Itachi who couldn't use his MS. How does that change anything I've said? A genjutsu attempt is a genjutsu attempt, regardless of it's lethality. Using a clone at the start is vital against Itachi, that's what I'm telling you. Heed Kakashi's statement here [

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]; this means he has to find some other way to fight Itachi without making direct eye contact. The only feasible way to do that is by clones. I'm going to repeat myself, whether it's useless or not isn't the point, it's something that has to happen as "don't look at Itachi he'll one shot you" is an actual thing in this manga. Once Itachi's initial jutsu attempt is out of the way (which according to some is an immediate one shot, it's not, which is why I'm emphasising clones at the start).

Yeah, circumstantial. Kakashi telling Naruto and co "Don't look into his eyes" at the very beginning sounds like something that prompts clones usage. Come one now.

Kamui opens a barrier, but the barriers size depends on the user and that's what matters here, as a smaller barrier will take less time to prepare for (say Itachi's head). Look at how quickly Naruto's rasengan vanished [

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], his hands were practically in the same place mid movement.

But it is a testament to Kakashi's reactions and still managing to tag an instantaneous technique is impressive in its own right.

Of course it's existent. The barrier's size depends on how large the user wants it, which again depends on how much chakra is put into the barrier. The smaller the barrier the less chakra which will be needed. No matter how small the difference may be, it's still there if we use common sense. We can see there's a clear difference in warping time between Naruto's clone and his Rasengan being warped away.

 

[Waltz]

..Then again...The time it took for Kakashi to focus and the jutsu took to initiate took the same amount of time for the arrow to leave Sasuke's bow and to be within point blank range of Kakashi. That's not instantaneous or outspeeding the arrow because it flew to him by the time the jutsu was able to take effect. For it to out speed the arrow it would have to warp it in a distance shorter than half the distance between the bow and Kakashi. Also recall Kakashi warping the Mazou's arm before it was desummoned hence, it's arm renaming there. Kakashi warping Naruto's Rasengan can't be a near instant feat when He started using Kamui when Naruto jumped and it didn't actually take effect until Naruto was practically at Obito as once again he'd have to focus on the target. Also not instantaneous suggesting it not being farfetched reasoning to assume rapid reactions such as Itachi's should apply a suitable counter to the Jutsu. How much chakra would Kakashi use warping Karasu Bunshin in pursuit of the Original Itachi and what is his solution if intercepted from alternate directions simultaneously? Surely, the risk of allowing even one within a said radius could determine the match give the plausibility of it being pseudo.

Hmm..EZQ's Kidomaru web VS Amatearsu isn't an appetizing argument either. "Hey Sasuke, lets spawn Amaterasu because I'm going to take a wild guess he's going to use Kidomaru's web and we'll just act before he does anything" - No adept Shinobi combats this way and last I read Itachi is an adept Shinobi to adept Shinobi. Amaterasu needs an existing target which was the web denoting the web would have been necessary for the Jutsu to be effect hence they decided to spawn Amaterasu after the web was formed.

I think that with full Knowledge and such a distance I see no reason as to why Itachi would not win. Itachi with full knowledge would already know that from the beginning of the battle the only thing within Kakshi's arsenal that could reach him is Kamui as well as it's limitations and as long as he can initiate something faster than Kakshi focusing on him and initiating the jutsu then he'll avoid it. ​

 

[KCN]

..Then again...The time it took for Kakashi to focus and the jutsu took to initiate took the same amount of time for the arrow to leave Sasuke's bow and to be within point blank range of Kakashi. That's not instantaneous. Also recall Kakashi warping the Mazou's arm before it was desummoned hence, it's arm renaming there. Kakashi warping Naruto's Rasengan can't be a near instant feat when He started using Kamui when Naruto jumped and it didn't actually take effect until Naruto was practically at Obito as once again he'd have to focus on the target. Also not instantaneous suggesting it not being farfetched reasoning to assume rapid reactions such as Itachi's should apply a suitable counter to the Jutsu. How much chakra would Kakashi use warping Karasu Bunshin in pursuit of the Original Itachi and what is his solution if intercepted from alternate directions simultaneously? Surely, the risk of allowing even one within a said radius could determine the match give the plausibility of it being pseudo. ​

I never claimed Kamui to be instantaneous, just near enough to it. The arrow was already released and the arrow has been stated to be really fast on numerous occasions. Yet Kakashi activated the MS after the arrow was released and managed to warp it. So in between the jutsu's overwhelming speed, and Kakashi's lack of a MS, as well as actually reacting and warping it, tells us just how fast it is. Where did you get the idea that Kamui was already in use prior to Naruto phasing through Obito? It was literally there one second, then not there the next.

 

[KidGamer65]

Useful against an Itachi who couldn't use his MS. How does that change anything I've said? A genjutsu attempt is a genjutsu attempt, regardless of it's lethality. Using a clone at the start is vital against Itachi, that's what I'm telling you. Heed Kakashi's statement here [

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]; this means he has to find some other way to fight Itachi without making direct eye contact. The only feasible way to do that is by clones. I'm going to repeat myself, whether it's useless or not isn't the point, it's something that has to happen as "don't look at Itachi he'll one shot you" is an actual thing in this manga. Once Itachi's initial jutsu attempt is out of the way (which according to some is an immediate one shot, it's not, which is why I'm emphasising clones at the start).

Itachi w/o MS and at 30%.

-Has Genjutsu.

Itachi w/ MS:

-Has Genjutsu.
-Has Amaterasu.
-Has Susanoo.
-Has his physical abilities at their full might.

Based on what Kakashi knew at the time and what he had at the time, a clone from the start was the best option. But it doesn't take much effort to realize that a Kakashi w/ Kamui and intel on the rest of Itachi's much more dangerous abilities knows that clones aren't the best option to start off with. You say "clones to counter the initial one shot attempt" even though that argument is literally no different than saying Kakashi starts off with Kamui to defeat and prevent Itachi from one shotting him.

What are you even arguing? That Kakashi using a clone is a more likely thing for him to do rather than start the match off using his MS? Because that's exactly what it sounds like you've been arguing these past 3 posts and that's false.

Yeah, circumstantial. Kakashi telling Naruto and co "Don't look into his eyes" at the very beginning sounds like something that prompts clones usage. Come one now.

Lmao. What in the world are you even talking about with this point? How does this disprove a thing I said? Kakashi suing clones is circumstantial. Clones fit in that circumstance. That circumstance is obviously not this circumstance That isn't something that lets you claim something like "clone feints are his go to move". :lol

Kamui opens a barrier, but the barriers size depends on the user and that's what matters here, as a smaller barrier will take less time to prepare for (say Itachi's head). Look at how quickly Naruto's rasengan vanished [

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], his hands were practically in the same place mid movement.

I addressed the first bit below.

I addressed that last bit in my last post.

But it is a testament to Kakashi's reactions and still managing to tag an instantaneous technique is impressive in its own right.

No, it's not for reasons I've explained twice now. Kakashi didn't tag an instant tech. That statement in itself makes no sense because you can't match instant with not instant. Nor is it a testament to his reactions because he didn't react to anything in a way that'd measure his speed.

-Gedo Mazo appears from Obito's body.
-Kakashi uses Kamui.
-Gedo Mazo warps away during the Kamui.

Kakashi used Kamui first and the Mazo was warped away during it. The only way this would be a feat is if the Mazo started to teleport before Kamui was used, but it didn't as the Manga shows.

Of course it's existent. The barrier's size depends on how large the user wants it, which again depends on how much chakra is put into the barrier. The smaller the barrier the less chakra which will be needed. No matter how small the difference may be, it's still there if we use common sense. We can see there's a clear difference in warping time between Naruto's clone and his Rasengan being warped away.

There is no difference. I literally just cited two examples where this difference you speak of doesn't exist. So repeating the same thing you typed above doesn't get you any points. L-O-L @ Common sense. What you think is common sense is irrelevant when the Manga has shown us a completely different story.

-Ash Bones.
-Gedo Mazo's arm.

2 incomparable sizes yet the warp speeds aren't shown to differ at all. If it's that minuscule then bringing it up is pointless to begin with.


And no, there is no clear difference shown in the warping time between Rasengan and Naruto's clone.

 

[KCN]

I'll reply tomorrow :lol

 

[Waltz]

I never claimed Kamui to be instantaneous, just near enough to it. The arrow was already released and the arrow has been stated to be really fast on numerous occasions. Yet Kakashi activated the MS after the arrow was released and managed to warp it. So in between the jutsu's overwhelming speed, and Kakashi's lack of a MS, as well as actually reacting and warping it, tells us just how fast it is. Where did you get the idea that Kamui was already in use prior to Naruto phasing through Obito? It was literally there one second, then not there the next.

Him warping the arrow after it was released means that Kamui had a shorter distance to travel in order to meet the arrow which as you've rightly said denotes that it is a fast jutsu however that still doesn't mean it out sped the arrow or that it's near instantaneous or fast enough to outspeed Itachi's entire arsenal.

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When Naruto jumped, he looked back at Kakashi and he initiated Kamui at the same time. ​