MS Kakashi vs MS Itachi

[LoZelda101]

lol you can't go from denial to bargaining, but then again we already saw anger so i guess its fitting.

"anger"

lol says the guy going out of his way to post oudated memes :lol I mean, if you want to consider that as a "counter" then I suppose. I wonder if that same situation could happen outside of the water terrain.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

"anger"

lol says the guy going out of his way to post oudated memes :lol I mean, if you want to consider that as a "counter" then I suppose. I wonder if that same situation could happen outside of the water terrain.

are you wondering it tachi can use water drill on a terrain that isn't water? Thats a good question, he has no feats saying he can so i guess not.

Can we call this the acceptance phase? i think we can

 

[LoZelda101]

are you wondering it tachi can use water drill on a terrain that isn't water? Thats a good question, he has no feats saying he can so i guess not.

Can we call this the acceptance phase? i think we can

I agree, especially since he could just use another water release in it's place. but I doubt kakashi's wall would've been as fast as it was when he was on the water terrain.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

I agree, especially since he could just use another water release in it's place. but I doubt kakashi's wall would've been as fast as it was when he was on the water terrain.

Another water technique? he only has 2, and the second one isn't an offensive tech. lol.
so you went through the 5 stages of grief , good for you.

 

[LoZelda101]

Another water technique? he only has 2, and the second one isn't an offensive tech. lol.
so you went through the 5 stages of grief , good for you.

lmao. yes, my pity for you is definitely giving me grief.

itachi has shown 2 ranged water releases,

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kakashi's water wall protection is faster when there is water already available. that's what enabled him to block.

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[BenjerminGaye]

lmao. yes, my pity for you is definitely giving me grief.

itachi has shown 2 ranged water releases,

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kakashi's water wall protection is faster when there is water already available. that's what enabled him to block.

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proof?

 

[LoZelda101]

proof?

these are the same water wall techs right? it looks like without water terrain, there suited as mid-long range shields.

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not the 360 shield kakashi used against itachi.

 

[Unorthodox]

Sasuke > boths

 

[EZQ]

I pretty much agree that Kamui has shown to be faster. I was simply stating that Amaterasu doesn't require the user to close their eyes, nor does it have to be performed as slow as in the scan you posted. Amaterasu took several panels to be initiated and used in the scan you presented, while it took one panel to be initiated and used when there was an actual sense of urgency against Kabuto.

But every time the bleed is there, if we talk about Itachi. EMS Sasuke did it without the bleeding i believe. And scan---> Scan is not a parameter of time that's what i mean.

It taking a lot of panles against Sasuke doesn't mean it took more time than when it took just one panel. Kishimoto decides how to draw it, and it was the first time Amaterasu was showed so the bleeding had to be used. If we talk about the Kabuto fight, it took the same time, but it didn't get drawn. It only means that in the fight against Sasuke it wasn't as slow as people thinks, just because it took more panels.

But if you agree there's nothing to argue

 

[Forbidden Technique]

Oh, duh. Completely forgot that base isn't 3T. Just took that for granted.

Assuming it's base and not 3T, I agree with your points. Save that last part. I don't think Itachi is going to be able to Shunshin out of a Kamui warp, his hand seals have little to do with his movement speed. But yes, Itachi could likely get some Bunshins out before a Kamui warp, so he could block it that way. From there he would have to avoid staying stationary or activating techs like Ama or Susano'o, because Kamui is going to beat those out.

In fact, I'd posit that Hiding Like A Mole jutsu would still work on Itachi. The Sharingan can see chakra through things like the Earth, but it's likely something the user has to focus on to do. Hence why Kakashi used the tech twice to fool two Dojutsu users - one of them being Itachi.

You're underestimating Itachi's jutsu execution and shunshin speed. Nagato, being a high level sensor, didn't have enough time to warn Naruto and Bee that Itachi was building up chakra to shunshin [

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]. The best he could do is warn them in the direction Itachi went, after the fact. Shortly after, Itachi shunshin's again and get's completely behind Killer Bee, who failed to track his movements for a second time in a row. My point being, Itachi's chakra build up to shunshin takes no time whatsoever; and even assuming that Kakashi can track his movements, doesn't mean he can physically follow his movements to land Kamui. Unless, of course, you think Kakashi can turn his head and alter his body as fast as Itachi's shunshin, which isn't supported.

And to get an idea of how fast Itachi's justu execution can be:

Spoiler

We know that Nagato instantly see's exactly what his other set of eyes see via shared vision

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However, the very moment Itachi's kunai made contact with his summons to block the shared vision, Itachi shunshin'd from where he was concealing himself and caught Nagato by surprise [

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] before he even had the time to process that his shared vision had been

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. This means that Itachi executed everything without a window for Nagato to properly acknowledge and prepare for a counter to his shared vision being taken out.

Now, let's say Kakashi attempts to swiftly take out Itachi off bat with a Kamui snipe. You agreed that Itachi can spawn a clone in front of him to prevent this from happening, but then Itachi can also simultaneously utilize his Shurikenjutsu to be curved around the Bunshin and aimed at Kakashi. That'll either force Kakashi to simply dodge or deflect them with his own, but then Kakashi has a flock of crows coming at him as a distraction, and an additional Karasu Bunshin to worry about that Itachi just spawned, which are both Shunshin'ing at him from different angles.... Do you now see the overwhelming potential of Itachi's jutsu execution when he actually has the intent to kill someone? Once he get's going, the chances of landing Kamui decreases significantly.

You can not possibly bank on Hiding Like A Mole working against an opponent like Itachi twice. Just like Kakashi was prepared to combat Itachi's genjutsu the second time around, the same should be expected with Itachi here. A tactic like that will easily be exposed by simple explosive kunai tags.

 

[Booker]

None of this prohibits Itachi or a regular clone from concealing himself within Karasu bunshin since his chakra is distributed to form them nor proves that Kakashi would be able to differentiate between Karasu and the original itachi or the original clone because once again, the chakra is distributed among the Karasu. ​

Itachi won't fall for it again because he has full knowlege of Kakashi's abilities meaning there is no reason for him not to peer into the ground if Kakashi and a clone submerges using that jutsu.

Again overlooking the risk involved for Kakashi. Kakashi does not know which Crow is Itachi or not so using anything other than Kamui can put him at risk for being ignited with Amaterasu or caught in Tsukuyomi if the Karasu get within a close enough proximity to him and using this Itachi could simply lure him out. Kakashi's clones must destroy the incoming Karasu from alternate directions with regular jutsu because one of them may be Itachi and being bunshin, the would not be severely affected by his Itachi's jutsu as they are clones. I never ignored Kakashi's clones and mentioned them as recently as

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. During this event the original Itachi would intercept the Original Kakashi once he reveals himself. ​

You're underestimating Itachi's jutsu execution and shunshin speed. Nagato, being a high level sensor, didn't have enough time to warn Naruto and Bee that Itachi was building up chakra to shunshin [

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]. The best he could do is warn them in the direction Itachi went, after the fact. Shortly after, Itachi shunshin's again and get's completely behind Killer Bee, who failed to track his movements for a second time in a row. My point being, Itachi's chakra build up to shunshin takes no time whatsoever; and even assuming that Kakashi can track his movements, doesn't mean he can physically follow his movements to land Kamui. Unless, of course, you think Kakashi can turn his head and alter his body as fast as Itachi's shunshin, which isn't supported.

And to get an idea of how fast Itachi's justu execution can be:

Spoiler

We know that Nagato instantly see's exactly what his other set of eyes see via shared vision

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However, the very moment Itachi's kunai made contact with his summons to block the shared vision, Itachi shunshin'd from where he was concealing himself and caught Nagato by surprise [

You must be registered for see links

] before he even had the time to process that his shared vision had been

You must be registered for see links

. This means that Itachi executed everything without a window for Nagato to properly acknowledge and prepare for a counter to his shared vision being taken out.

Now, let's say Kakashi attempts to swiftly take out Itachi off bat with a Kamui snipe. You agreed that Itachi can spawn a clone in front of him to prevent this from happening, but then Itachi can also simultaneously utilize his Shurikenjutsu to be curved around the Bunshin and aimed at Kakashi. That'll either force Kakashi to simply dodge or deflect them with his own, but then Kakashi has a flock of crows coming at him as a distraction, and an additional Karasu Bunshin to worry about that Itachi just spawned, which are both Shunshin'ing at him from different angles.... Do you now see the overwhelming potential of Itachi's jutsu execution when he actually has the intent to kill someone? Once he get's going, the chances of landing Kamui decreases significantly.

You can not possibly bank on Hiding Like A Mole working against an opponent like Itachi twice. Just like Kakashi was prepared to combat Itachi's genjutsu the second time around, the same should be expected with Itachi here. A tactic like that will easily be exposed by simple explosive kunai tags.

Alright, I concede. Between these two it makes more sense that Itachi wins here.

 

[Eng nawashi]

.

Just two points .
-ofc, Kamui user can control the warping speed .it was implied on multiple occasions . or there would be no point in Obito getting surprised by Kakashi's warping speed if kamui speed is fixed since he already saw kakashi's warping before .you also misunderstand what happened .Kakashi made the Rasengan warping very slow and noticeable to obito in order to deceive him and make him think that Kakashi's intention was to warp the rasengan like the last time while Kakashi's actual intention was to warp the clone .when kakashi warped the rasengan the first time ,it was much faster that obito didn't notice the warping and thought that Naruto stopped his rasengan .also against Minato ,Obito himself stated that he would be faster the next time which supports more the idea that kamui speed is adjustable and controllable by the user .

-you still make it look too simple while it isn't .kamui /amatrasu execution speed is a function of multiple factors like how much chakra it requires,the skill of the user ....etc .kakashi himself was shown developing throughout part2 and throughout the war arc .when he tried to warp the gedo's head /neck ,he took a while to prepare kamui yet when he warped the gedo's arm at the end of war arc ,he nearly used kamui at the moment of thinking despite warping larger object .if you are still not convinced ,then there is no need to further argument .

 

[Eng nawashi]

Restrict Kakashi from Sniping Itachi(still can use kamui on anything else including susano ) and restrict Itachi from using amatrasu on Kakashi and from using Tuski and then we have much better match up .

 

[lelerskates]

Edo changes nothing besides what it's stated to change. Anything else is you making dumb excuses. Don't quote me again.

***** stfu. Since you're banned go suck on your moms tit to gain strength back for when you come back here to get your ass handed to you. Fgt

 

[Booker]

***** stfu. Since you're banned go suck on your moms tit to gain strength back for when you come back here to get your ass handed to you. Fgt

Lmao considering putting this in my sig

 

[BenjerminGaye]

these are the same water wall techs right? it looks like without water terrain, there suited as mid-long range shields.

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not the 360 shield kakashi used against itachi.

so how does that make it slower? Don't dodge the question now, and the other water tech you showed doesn't attack from 360 soo.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

None of this prohibits Itachi or a regular clone from concealing himself within Karasu bunshin since his chakra is distributed to form them nor proves that Kakashi would be able to differentiate between Karasu and the original itachi or the original clone because once again, the chakra is distributed among the Karasu. ​

The amount of chakra used is kurasu is less than that used is standard shadow clones since crows are being used as a substitute(you posted the db scan proving this) , sharingan will pick up on the level difference to tell whether he's using crow clones are not. And again kakashi already saw through itachi's shadow clone.

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So he isn't liable to fall for any of itachi's clone games. Especially with full knowledge.

 

[lelerskates]

Lmao considering putting this in my sig

I would be honored. Lel

 

[KCN]

Itachi w/o MS and at 30%.

-Has Genjutsu.

Itachi w/ MS:

-Has Genjutsu.
-Has Amaterasu.
-Has Susanoo.
-Has his physical abilities at their full might.

Based on what Kakashi knew at the time and what he had at the time, a clone from the start was the best option. But it doesn't take much effort to realize that a Kakashi w/ Kamui and intel on the rest of Itachi's much more dangerous abilities knows that clones aren't the best option to start off with. You say "clones to counter the initial one shot attempt" even though that argument is literally no different than saying Kakashi starts off with Kamui to defeat and prevent Itachi from one shotting him.

What are you even arguing? That Kakashi using a clone is a more likely thing for him to do rather than start the match off using his MS? Because that's exactly what it sounds like you've been arguing these past 3 posts and that's false.



Lmao. What in the world are you even talking about with this point? How does this disprove a thing I said? Kakashi suing clones is circumstantial. Clones fit in that circumstance. That circumstance is obviously not this circumstance That isn't something that lets you claim something like "clone feints are his go to move". :lol



I addressed the first bit below.

I addressed that last bit in my last post.



No, it's not for reasons I've explained twice now. Kakashi didn't tag an instant tech. That statement in itself makes no sense because you can't match instant with not instant. Nor is it a testament to his reactions because he didn't react to anything in a way that'd measure his speed.

-Gedo Mazo appears from Obito's body.
-Kakashi uses Kamui.
-Gedo Mazo warps away during the Kamui.

Kakashi used Kamui first and the Mazo was warped away during it. The only way this would be a feat is if the Mazo started to teleport before Kamui was used, but it didn't as the Manga shows.



There is no difference. I literally just cited two examples where this difference you speak of doesn't exist. So repeating the same thing you typed above doesn't get you any points. L-O-L @ Common sense. What you think is common sense is irrelevant when the Manga has shown us a completely different story.

-Ash Bones.
-Gedo Mazo's arm.

2 incomparable sizes yet the warp speeds aren't shown to differ at all. If it's that minuscule then bringing it up is pointless to begin with.


And no, there is no clear difference shown in the warping time between Rasengan and Naruto's clone.

But is setting up a clone still not the best option? Besides Tsukuyomi, he has Amaterasu to look out for. Itachi has used Amaterasu on a whim before, but Susano'o is a defensive measure unless you're telling me Itachi goes straight for a V4, which makes absolutely zero sense. For one second lets just look past Itachi's entire arsenal, and lets focus on what matters, which is the MS.

- Amaterasu is a one shot
- Tsukuyomi is a one shot
- V4 Susano'o makes no sense here whatsoever, not at the start anyways.

So 2 out of 3 of Itachi's MS techs are potential one shots, and you're really telling me Kakashi won't opt for a clone here? Lets get serious please. I'm trying to tell you that Itachi's style of fighting is based around Genjutsu, and the way to minimise that risk is to utilise the partner method, which Kakashi can do with clones. That's all.

What I'm arguing is this: any potential one shot at the start of the match is avoided on Kakashi's part, whether it's Amaterasu or Kamui. If he uses Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi and fails, Kamui one shots him first, especially if he uses Amaterasu. Can't believe you're arguing this with me when the first thing Kakashi did when he met Itachi was telling everyone to avoid eye contact, then made a clone soon after.

And this circumstance is no different. Itachi's arsenal is built around one shots. You have literally no point here whatsoever.

Naruto's hand moved a few inches at most, and only because he was already in motion. Still, the Rasengan disappeared nigh instantly, and it isn't really debatable. When Kakashi aims for Itachi's head, it'd take roughly that same amount of time.

You're correct on the situation, I'll concede on that point, but lets analyse something else. Kakashi's Kamui was interrupted literally right after using the jutsu, and something as large as the Mazo's arm was ripped off. Itachi gets the exact same treatment, unless I'm forgetting something like Kakashi being on Naruto's chakra.

- Kakashi warped Kaguya's bone when juiced off Rikoudou, so that's irrelevant [

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]
- Mentioning the Gedo is irrelevant, as we never saw the outcome. When Kamui gets interrupted it just snatches a random limb, as seen against Deidara. There's no way for us to compare the two when in one instance, his Kamui was enhanced, and in the other one it was interrupted before it finished.

- When Naruto's clone got warped, you can see his body get sucked in from top to bottom. The Rasengan just disappeared nigh instantly.


@Waltz, that's not what I was talking about

 

[KidGamer65]

But is setting up a clone still not the best option? Besides Tsukuyomi, he has Amaterasu to look out for. Itachi has used Amaterasu on a whim before, but Susano'o is a defensive measure unless you're telling me Itachi goes straight for a V4, which makes absolutely zero sense. For one second lets just look past Itachi's entire arsenal, and lets focus on what matters, which is the MS.

- Amaterasu is a one shot
- Tsukuyomi is a one shot
- V4 Susano'o makes no sense here whatsoever, not at the start anyways.

So 2 out of 3 of Itachi's MS techs are potential one shots, and you're really telling me Kakashi won't opt for a clone here? Lets get serious please. I'm trying to tell you that Itachi's style of fighting is based around Genjutsu, and the way to minimise that risk is to utilise the partner method, which Kakashi can do with clones. That's all.

Lmao what are you on about? I don't know how much more simpler I can make this sound, but using Kamui to prevent AND take out Itachi in one go will always be a better choice than him using clones from the very start to deal with Amaterasu. Even using Kamui to outright evade an Amaterasu attempt instead of taking out Kakashi would be a better option assuming it's fast enough to do so.

And Tsukuyomi isn't a one shot from the very beginning of the fight because Itachi can't make eye contact with Kakashi from 50m away. :lol So I'm going to say this again. You are wrong.

What I'm arguing is this: any potential one shot at the start of the match is avoided on Kakashi's part, whether it's Amaterasu or Kamui. If he uses Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi and fails, Kamui one shots him first, especially if he uses Amaterasu. Can't believe you're arguing this with me when the first thing Kakashi did when he met Itachi was telling everyone to avoid eye contact, then made a clone soon after.

Then why are you arguing this with me when I never disagreed? :lol Nor did the post you quoted have anything to do with whether or not Kakashi can evade a potential one shot at the beginning? I said IF they both go for their one shots at the beginning then Kakashi loses.

And I can't believe you are still bringing up irrelevant scenarios where Kakashi doesn't know about the other half of Itachi's arsenal and where he didn't have a Kamui as proficient as he has in this thread.

And this circumstance is no different. Itachi's arsenal is built around one shots. You have literally no point here whatsoever.

Addressed way too many times.

Naruto's hand moved a few inches at most, and only because he was already in motion. Still, the Rasengan disappeared nigh instantly, and it isn't really debatable. When Kakashi aims for Itachi's head, it'd take roughly that same amount of time.

What type of nonsense is this? If Naruto moving nowhere near top speed can move that far even if it's only a few inches then Kamui is obviously not nigh instant. You people really need to stop throwing the tag "nigh instant" onto everything. "really not debatable". Come on now buddy. Not to mention that's just the warp speed. It isn't shown when Kakashi actually initiated Kamui from start to finish so I have no idea why you thought this was legit to bring. Especially since a feat used less than 5 chapters later is far more clear than this.

You're correct on the situation, I'll concede on that point, but lets analyse something else. Kakashi's Kamui was interrupted literally right after using the jutsu, and something as large as the Mazo's arm was ripped off. Itachi gets the exact same treatment, unless I'm forgetting something like Kakashi being on Naruto's chakra.

- Kakashi warped Kaguya's bone when juiced off Rikoudou, so that's irrelevant [

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]
- Mentioning the Gedo is irrelevant, as we never saw the outcome. When Kamui gets interrupted it just snatches a random limb, as seen against Deidara. There's no way for us to compare the two when in one instance, his Kamui was enhanced, and in the other one it was interrupted before it finished.

- When Naruto's clone got warped, you can see his body get sucked in from top to bottom. The Rasengan just disappeared nigh instantly.


@Waltz, that's not what I was talking about

Those are literally the same feats Amaterasu has, so of course, you have no point here.

-Since when did Rikudo's power increase the speed of Space Time Ninjutsu first of all? Never. :lol Second of all you were so quick to jump to this "rikudo" point without stopping and thinking about how that would even work here. If Kakashi w/ Rikudo power is warping with no visible difference in speed than Kakashi w/o Rikudo's power it means that Rikudo's power is irrelevant and that my point holds.

-The outcome is irrelevant when we are talking about build up. Not warp speed. Even if we were to talk about warp speed, as I've already stated above you have no point. Warp speeds have never been different based on the size of the object. Build up time has no dramatic difference unless the object is extremely large. That's why there is no visible difference between Kakashi's build up for the bone and for the Mazo's arm.

And no, you absolutely could not see Naruto's clone's body get sucked in from top to bottom. What you saw is:

-Kakashi initiates Kamui.
-The Rasengan starts to flicker.
-Obito activates his own Kamui.
-Releases the stake and hits where Naruto's clone was.

In the time between Kamui's activation and the warp Obito was able to:

-Notice he was using Kamui.
-Activate his own Kamui.
-Partially release his stake (as the stake is what covered Naruto and prevented Obito from seeing the clone being warped)