MS Kakashi vs MS Itachi

[KCN]

Location - Team Naruto vs Obito
Distance - 50m
Knowledge - Full

 

[KidGamer65]

With full knowledge Kakashi ends it as soon as he can with Kamui, unless Itachi also starts the match with his own spawnable Amaterasu. Then it's GG Kakashi.

 

[EZQ]

^^^We've argued this before, maybe Sasuke's EMS amaterasu, but Itachi's MS amaterasu has a lot more charge time than Kamui. Kakashi wins even if Itachi starts with amaterasu

 

[KidGamer65]

^^^We've argued this before, maybe Sasuke's EMS amaterasu, but Itachi's MS amaterasu has a lot more charge time than Kamui. Kakashi wins even if Itachi starts with amaterasu

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Nope.

-If Kakashi starts with Kamui and Itachi starts with Amaterasu, Itachi wins.
-If Kakashi doesn't start with Kamui, Itachi wins.

 

[Bogard]

Living Itachi requires time to charge up his MS techniques to the point that at 30% chakra, he couldn't even use them. Itachi's amaterasu is also described as a close range technique in the databook when Kamui is all ranges. At 50m, Kakashi has the decisive advantage. Besides, Kamui is a amaterasu counter especially since the moment Kakashi learned how to create distortions around him. He'd warp it at any given time when Itachi has no defense against Kamui

 

[KCN]

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Nope.

-If Kakashi starts with Kamui and Itachi starts with Amaterasu, Itachi wins.
-If Kakashi doesn't start with Kamui, Itachi wins.

Kakashi likes to start off battles with

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, and at 50m Itachi just starting off with Amaterasu is unlikely.

 

[Forbidden Technique]

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Nope.

-If Kakashi starts with Kamui and Itachi starts with Amaterasu, Itachi wins.
-If Kakashi doesn't start with Kamui, Itachi wins.

How do they not both KO each other? I think Kamui might be faster though.

I'm going to assume they both neutrally start in base, in which case Itachi immediately begins with a Karasu Bunshin spawned directly in front of him. His hand seal speed is too fast for a 3T Sharingan to track, so it definitely get's deployed before Kakashi activates MS and uses Kamui. Someone feel free to counter with Kakashi from there, I'm obviously siding with GOATachi.

 

[KCN]

Come on lads, lets not make this a Kamui one shot vs Amaterasu one shot

 

[EZQ]

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Nope.

Cool, a scan where there's absolutely no parameter. To know how much time that took, just look at the inicial distance Kabuto and the duo had, and then look on where amaterasu spawned. The net travelled several meters before the flames were fired. But it's still not a good parameter since there was no indication of how close the net was when these two closes their eyes. They were only drawn opened with the blood already dropping..

Good luck that we already know how this works by previous amaterasu usages:

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The eye drops blood and after that the fire is launched. In your scan the blood was drawn already dropped but that doesn't mean that the previous steps didn't happen. All that shows is that it's fast enough to outspeed Kidomaru's webs.. good luck comparing that feat to outspeeding a susano arrow.

 

[KidGamer65]

Kakashi likes to start off battles with

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, and at 50m Itachi just starting off with Amaterasu is unlikely.

First of all, Choza stated that's for when Kakashi needs to feel out his opponent. He's fought Itachi twice before.

Second of all, that's all circumstantial. There is no one go to strategy that a person will have no matter the enemy. Kakashi isn't going to start off with clone feints against an opponent like Itachi when he knows how dangerous he is, and now knows about Susanoo and all that jazz due to intel. Kakashi was going to use Kamui on Obito off rip when he thought he was Madara.

And Itachi starting off with Amaterasu is unlikely, but the only reason he'd feel the need to do that is because Kakashi's eye abilities are even more dangerous than his. But it all depends tbh.

How do they not both KO each other? I think Kamui might be faster though.

I'm going to assume they both neutrally start in base, in which case Itachi immediately begins with a Karasu Bunshin spawned directly in front of him. His hand seal speed is too fast for a 3T Sharingan to track, so it definitely get's deployed before Kakashi activates MS and uses Kamui. Someone feel free to counter with Kakashi from there, I'm obviously siding with GOATachi.

Kamui and Amaterasu should spawn at the same time, but Kakashi still has the warp to complete while Amaterasu is done once it's spawned. So Itachi would win by a hair. And the flame would block his LoS and cancel the warp anyway.

And I definitely agree with this right here if they don't start with their Dojutsu active like they should.

 

[EZQ]

I also agree that amaterasu vs kamui is boring. Restrict offensive Kamui snipe and any susano above v2 and it'd be more fun. Itachi wins imo

 

[KidGamer65]

Cool, a scan where there's absolutely no parameter. To know how much time that took, just look at the inicial distance Kabuto and the duo had, and then look on where amaterasu spawned. The net travelled several meters before the flames were fired. But it's still not a good parameter since there was no indication of how close the net was when these two closes their eyes. They were only drawn opened with the blood already dropping..

Good luck that we already know how this works by previous amaterasu usages:

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The eye drops blood and after that the fire is launched. In your scan the blood was drawn already dropped but that doesn't mean that the previous steps didn't happen. All that shows is that it's fast enough to outspeed Kidomaru's webs.. good luck comparing that feat to outspeeding a susano arrow.

He matched EMS Sasuke, that's all that matters here. :lol So unless you are going to make reach arguments to try and discredit the speed of Sasuke's Amaterasu despite saying what you said in your initial post this argument is pretty much finished.

Like the entire content of your post. A reach. Amaterasu being used slower here doesn't change the fact it was used faster over here. And none of what you are saying here aside from that point makes any sense.

-The net obviously was set up before Amaterasu was used because Amaterasu is used to destroy the net. Can't destroy the net if the net isn't up.

-"They were drawn with the blood already dropping". :lol Sasuke states "swords can't cut these threads" and the next panel blood is dripping and then Amaterasu is used. There are no previous steps. Blood falls and the flame is created. Reach. There is no argument you can make to try and argue that significant time, or rather even a second passed between Sasuke's statement and them using Amaterasu.

And outspeeding a Susanoo Arrow? Kamui and Amaterasu are both techniques that spawn on their target. The only speed that matters is the reaction speed of the user.

 

[KCN]

First of all, Choza stated that's for when Kakashi needs to feel out his opponent. He's fought Itachi twice before.

Second of all, that's all circumstantial. There is no one go to strategy that a person will have no matter the enemy. Kakashi isn't going to start off with clone feints against an opponent like Itachi when he knows how dangerous he is, and now knows about Susanoo and all that jazz due to intel. Kakashi was going to use Kamui on Obito off rip when he thought he was Madara.

And Itachi starting off with Amaterasu is unlikely, but the only reason he'd feel the need to do that is because Kakashi's eye abilities are even more dangerous than his. But it all depends tbh.

No, Kakashi used a clone prior to engaging Pain because he knew engaging him personally head on is risky. Kakashi had prior knowledge, and knew going in there is a risk so he opted for a clone as it states in the scan. No reason as to why he wouldn't do the same against Itachi, who has an array of one shot techniques in Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi; it's especially likely considering his whole second skirmish with Itachi was more or less focused on Itachi's proficiency in Genjutsu, and repeatedly emphasised partner relevancy in altercations against such a skilled Genjutsu user. Kakashi of course has no partner, so he makes up for it in clones. No reason whatsoever why Kakashi doesn't use clones here.

Kamui has shown a lot more flexibility regarding range, and has pretty much no prerequisites whatsoever.

 

[Bogard]

How do they not both KO each other? I think Kamui might be faster though.

I'm going to assume they both neutrally start in base, in which case Itachi immediately begins with a Karasu Bunshin spawned directly in front of him. His hand seal speed is too fast for a 3T Sharingan to track, so it definitely get's deployed before Kakashi activates MS and uses Kamui. Someone feel free to counter with Kakashi from there, I'm obviously siding with GOATachi.

Kakashi's kamui could warp Sakura, Naruto and Gaara's sand together when they were nearby in the war. When Itachi creates his KBs, he is usually not far off from the clone, so there is a chance he'd get warped regardless. Besides Kakashi managed to see through Itachi's bunshin feint in part1. Infact Kakashi won the clone battles both times they had it. Kakashi's defensive techniques(doton: hiding mole, doton wall) also works better against Amaterasu(which will be blocked) than the latter who has no visible defense against a penetrative warping eye like Kamui

 

[KidGamer65]

No, Kakashi used a clone prior to engaging Pain because he knew engaging him personally head on is risky. Kakashi had prior knowledge, and knew going in there is a risk so he opted for a clone as it states in the scan. No reason as to why he wouldn't do the same against Itachi, who has an array of one shot techniques in Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi; it's especially likely considering his whole second skirmish with Itachi was more or less focused on Itachi's proficiency in Genjutsu, and repeatedly emphasised partner relevancy in altercations against such a skilled Genjutsu user. Kakashi of course has no partner, so he makes up for it in clones. No reason whatsoever why Kakashi doesn't use clones here.

Kamui has shown a lot more flexibility regarding range, and has pretty much no prerequisites whatsoever.

What prior knowledge did he have? He knew that Pain was multiple bodies that had linked vision. That's it. The only intel he gained during the fight before he used his clones is that Deva can push things away. He didn't know about Bansho Tennin until after he set up his feint. I don't think I need to tell you the difference between knowing that Deva can push things away, and knowing that Itachi has Susanoo, Amaterasu and of course, Tsukuyomi along with nasty clone feints and untraceable hand speed.

Clones are to feel out the opponent. Once again. Why would he feel out an opponent who's abilities he knows? He'd be doing nothing but wasting a clone because a clone feint will literally get him nowhere. His fights with Itachi taught him about:

-Itachi's untraceable hand seal speed.
-Itachi's high body speed and reflexes.
-Itachi's clone feints.
-Tsukuyomi.

Full intel lets him know about Susanoo and Amaterasu. Don't try to argue that this and Pain are the same scenario. They most definitely are not. Whether or not he'll use clones isn't the question here because it's obvious he will at some point. The question is "will he start off with clones against Itachi", and the answer is definitely no.

And if he does then eventually it comes down to Kamui vs. Amaterasu regardless because at the end of the day, Kakashi using clones wastes his chakra. Chakra he should be saving for his Mangekyo.


Range being a limiter to Amaterasu is 100% fanfiction first of all. Second of all the fact that Kamui has little build up is mitigated by the fact that it's a spawn+warp process while Amaterasu only needs to spawn a little bit to block Kakashi's vision, and the fact that Itachi reacts faster, so if it ever comes down to a quickdraw type fight w/ Kamui and Amaterasu Itachi would come out on top by a hair.

 

[Forbidden Technique]

Kamui and Amaterasu should spawn at the same time, but Kakashi still has the warp to complete while Amaterasu is done once it's spawned. So Itachi would win by a hair. And the flame would block his LoS and cancel the warp anyway.

And I definitely agree with this right here if they don't start with their Dojutsu active like they should.

Kamui's warp should be pretty instantaneous considering it warped the Mazou's arm away while it was being instantly de-summoned [

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].

Yeah, that's Itachi's best counter to get himself situated to fight Kakashi before getting his head sniped off bat, assuming that's how Kakashi decides to start.

Cool, a scan where there's absolutely no parameter. To know how much time that took, just look at the inicial distance Kabuto and the duo had, and then look on where amaterasu spawned. The net travelled several meters before the flames were fired. But it's still not a good parameter since there was no indication of how close the net was when these two closes their eyes. They were only drawn opened with the blood already dropping..

Good luck that we already know how this works by previous amaterasu usages:

You must be registered for see images

The eye drops blood and after that the fire is launched. In your scan the blood was drawn already dropped but that doesn't mean that the previous steps didn't happen. All that shows is that it's fast enough to outspeed Kidomaru's webs.. good luck comparing that feat to outspeeding a susano arrow.

The eyes don't need to close, there's plenty of examples of this. And there is big difference between when a jutsu needs to be used immediately in a sense of urgency (KG's scan) and when it can be comfortably casted (Your scan).

I'll be back on this later. Hoping for a nice debate here.

 

[KidGamer65]

Kamui's warp should be pretty instantaneous considering it warped the Mazou's arm away while it was being instantly de-summoned [

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].

Yeah, that's Itachi's best counter to get himself situated to fight Kakashi before getting his head sniped off bat, assuming that's how Kakashi decides to start.

Summoning might have been used first, but the actual teleportation didn't occur until after Kamui had been used. So Kakashi didn't interrupt the actual teleportation process with his Kamui. The teleportation process actually outsped Kamui here.

Yeah, I personally don't really think that Itachi or Kakashi will start off with Amaterasu or Kamui, but I felt the need to cover all the bases since I already know people will be up in this thread talking about "Kamui off the bat".

Though I will say it's much more likely for Kakashi to start off with Kamui or use it very early on considering how badly Itachi beat him the first time around and how dangerous his other abilities are.

 

[Bogard]

Range being a limiter to Amaterasu is 100% fanfiction first of all.

It's not a fanfiction if we're talking about living Itachi who has MS since 8years or so, so with already having eye backslashes. It's for that reason the range of his amaterasu is described as close in the databook(he needs to get close for it to be effective)

 

[EZQ]

He matched EMS Sasuke, that's all that matters here. :lol So unless you are going to make reach arguments to try and discredit the speed of Sasuke's Amaterasu despite saying what you said in your initial post this argument is pretty much finished.

EMS Sasuke who also drops blood while using Amaterasu, who we don't have parameters to tell in his feats either. And what i said in my initial post is what to avoid this stupid discussion, where the last time we had it, your argument was "The flames didn't attach to Ay's body because they hadn't spawned completely" and Apex ended up saying i was right but it was Kishimoto's mistake, becaue, lol there's absolutely not another scan in the manga about amaterasu with a parameter.

You saying he matched Sasuke is using Sasuke as a parameter, who doesn't have a parameter himself.

Like the entire content of your post. A reach. Amaterasu being used slower here doesn't change the fact it was used faster over here. And none of what you are saying here aside from that point makes any sense.

-The net obviously was set up before Amaterasu was used because Amaterasu is used to destroy the net. Can't destroy the net if the net isn't up.

And of course, you didn't understand what i said. We see the net being fired, then we see the net closer to the duo already clashing with amateasu. Things we didn't see:

-When they closed their eyes, where was the net?
-When the blood dropped, where was the net?

Please learn how a parameter works. If i tell you a car finished a race of 100 m but i don't tell you the time, you can't know it's speed.

-"They were drawn with the blood already dropping". :lol Sasuke states "swords can't cut these threads" and the next panel blood is dripping and then Amaterasu is used.

Irrelevant. Only shows how slow Kidomaru's webs are.

And again

Previous panel: Web travellling

Next panel: Eyes with blood dropping firig amaterasu

Thing your brain is not proccesing: The blood dropped some point in between those two parts, as the scan i showed, the blood drops first.

There are no previous steps.

Clearly mistaken. Unless the blood spawned on their faces at the same time amaterasu did.. lol no

Blood falls and the flame is created. Reach. There is no argument you can make to try and argue that significant time, or rather even a second passed between Sasuke's statement and them using Amaterasu.

Significant or not.. it's relative to Kakashi's best feat, from roughly the same distance, outspeeding a much faster object. So i don't care if it's a split second, the one ignoring that split second is you.

And yes i do have an argument, which you ignore every time we argue this, the blood drops first. It doesn't get drawn every single time, but if the blood is already on their faces, it means it dropped somewhere before the flame was fired.

And outspeeding a Susanoo Arrow? Kamui and Amaterasu are both techniques that spawn on their target. The only speed that matters is the reaction speed of the user.

Congratulations on missing the argument. We are talking about how much charge time one and the other has
.

So, for itachi, we know

-Itachi's best feat is not letting kidomaru's web travel more than a couple meters before the flames are spawned.

-Kakashi's best feat is not letting a susano arrow travel a few metters before Kamui is spawned.

If we knew WHEN Itachi closed his eye, to start the blood droping, then it would be more exact and it could be even a better feat that Kakashi, but we don't know, and one thing we know for sure, is that Amaterasu's "charge time" involves blood dropping, while Kakashi's doesn't.

And i won't argue this with you anymore. The last time it was clear when you had to resource to "it was kishimotos mistake"

 

[KCN]

What prior knowledge did he have? He knew that Pain was multiple bodies that had linked vision. That's it. The only intel he gained during the fight before he used his clones is that Deva can push things away. He didn't know about Bansho Tennin until after he set up his feint. I don't think I need to tell you the difference between knowing that Deva can push things away, and knowing that Itachi has Susanoo, Amaterasu and of course, Tsukuyomi along with nasty clone feints and untraceable hand speed.

Clones are to feel out the opponent. Once again. Why would he feel out an opponent who's abilities he knows? He'd be doing nothing but wasting a clone because a clone feint will literally get him nowhere. His fights with Itachi taught him about:

-Itachi's untraceable hand seal speed.
-Itachi's high body speed and reflexes.
-Itachi's clone feints.
-Tsukuyomi.

Full intel lets him know about Susanoo and Amaterasu. Don't try to argue that this and Pain are the same scenario. They most definitely are not. Whether or not he'll use clones isn't the question here because it's obvious he will at some point. The question is "will he start off with clones against Itachi", and the answer is definitely no.

And if he does then eventually it comes down to Kamui vs. Amaterasu regardless because at the end of the day, Kakashi using clones wastes his chakra. Chakra he should be saving for his Mangekyo.


Range being a limiter to Amaterasu is 100% fanfiction first of all. Second of all the fact that Kamui has little build up is mitigated by the fact that it's a spawn+warp process while Amaterasu only needs to spawn a little bit to block Kakashi's vision, and the fact that Itachi reacts faster, so if it ever comes down to a quickdraw type fight w/ Kamui and Amaterasu Itachi would come out on top by a hair.

So what are you suggesting here? Kakashi doesn't prepare for Tsukuyomi, a jutsu which KO'd him before and despite him preparing for Genjutsu in canon, pretty much at the start of his battle against Itachi [

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]? Kakashi knows more than anyone how dangerous his Genjutsu is, and clones against this specific opponent is crucial in his strategy. What you're saying is he basically ignores Itachi's potency in Genjutsu because he already knows how he fights, which is irrelevant to the overall point in avoiding genjutsu as a whole. Choza also states he knew his opponents ability before making the clone feint... it's called tactics. You prepare for specific situations with specific abilities. This situation calls for clones.

Kakashi's stamina improved a whole lot during the war arc. Itachi doesn't have the ability to spam his MS techs anyways, so Kakashi doesn't need to spam clones like you're suggesting. All he needs to do is get over the eventual Tsuku/Ama attempt, either by getting off Kamui first of by manoeuvring around them with his tricks.

The warp process is near instant though, as seen when Kakashi warped Naruto's clone and the Mazo's arm. Kakashi warped much larger objects at fractions of a second, never mind a small body part like a limb which would require much less chakra build up as opposed to Itachi's bleeding eye.