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Natsu Shazneel
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Since when the manliness in OP is directed at females. lmao... I don't think you have that much idea about what most females consider fanservice directed at them. Oda knows better when he mad Nami go Ewww while all male characters were just going gaga over Frankie.
If it works for you sure. I don't care. To me that whole arc was anti climatic. Since the monster in the end turned out to be too lame. And I wonder how come someone like Vegapunk couldn't figure out or didn't try to figure out what was going on. They better show that he wasn't allowed to check if it ever comes up.
It became relevant( among other things) when someone thought bringing in issue of sexism. I don't think you understand that he is Nami's crewmate and his behaviour towards her is going to reflect on how women are being presented to the readers. Who said it was about Nami. the thread topic is Sakura and HInata and I am talking about portrayal of women. That kind of physical behaviour not being taken seriously is crossing a line for me. Somehow you are too wrapped up in your appreciation of OP to see it.
So when it comes to Naruto you ask me what Konoha 11 is doing and when it comes SH you tell me it's fine if rest don't get much screen time. What's wrong with Konoha 11 providing back up when needed and letting Naruto Sasuke handle it when it was something more at their level? Double standards much?
So now you understand that it's your opinion VS my opinion. So why exactly you are getting so worked up about? You have something against mine? Do you think your essays will suddenly would made me change it by some magic? For your words are certainly not that influential. :|
That doesn't excuse her sudden lack of brains.
Now I am looking too deep- Don't you see I said the same thing- when you read Naruto you look too deep but now expect me to not to see it that way. And oh please- She lived away from that island when she was a slave and is a shichibukai. She had enough interaction with men or was she doing her piracy while living in some underground shelter her whole life? Or you are telling me the idea of slavery too is just to be seen superficially?
I can say the same when you guys talk about Sakura. But then standards change.
See^ here you go. You compare it yourself and still you are also angry when I said they are in the same boat.
You are only proving my point in the first post you replied. so why are you wasting your time and mine?
It's not called having issue. It's called slapstick comedy that doesn't impress me. I see wh it's so popular, but half of it's jokes are just not my kind.
So now you are putting them in same boat but still plan to continue the argument
Nah it's called fanboyism. For the ending didn't let me forget the starting. You see the difference between you and me- I hardly ever focus on a particular panel. I always prefer to see characters as a whole - the type of personality. I like Zoro for the kind of person he is portrayed as not because of how he is drawn. Though a pleasing drawing doesn't hurt and when I say that I am not talking about a buff body. That too is directed for male readers. Because that's the way males are often conditioned to see a hero.
As for Naruto- Kishi rushed a lot of things by the end of war arc -because as he told in his interview in Oda- publishers had given him and ending date and he had to squeeze a lot for their was no time to build up things anymore. So I am not going to make a case on last chapters.
And seriously I don't really have issues with Obito being coolest guy or not. I am from a country where we are used to give pardon to real terrorists and murderers who have less to show than Obito on the positive side. If I have to deal with them not only being pardoned but regularly participating in politics and get high chairs getting angry over Obito is silly for better or worse he was dead, died while trying to help and the guy who was berating him was responsible for the whole mess. There are those old school things like getting a pardon for your evil deeds by an honourable death at least.
I hope you are not American -- but if you are - the idiots in your country were inviting one of such a murderer to have tea with your president in the White House and lobbying to get her a Nobel Prize.
Even the cooles guy buit- because the sentece was " Obito that wanted to be hokage was the coolest guy." So I just see it as reference to that side of Obito while leaving out his Tobi days. It helps me not getting my BP up over it and move on. You may choose to focus on half the description and be agitated. :shrug:
Did I say that?
And the same boat bit...already replied.
That's your personal issue with her. Am I really supposed to care?
"Nami was introduced as an interesting and likable girl. Hurray Now she can needs to throw her shirts away to remain likable and interesting." Will that do?
You see- That's not bringing up power level. That's what they do. Hinata is part of the team which often used for scouting or search purpose- that's especially of her team. Sakura is a medic and good one at that as shown when she was able to cure Konkuro. Saying that they were doing their part is not bringing up the power level. It was just a reminder that they were also fulfilling their purpose as part of Konoha 11. And-You questioned what Konoha 11 was doing and so I told you.
LOl. at least Kishi remembered how to draw them. Recently when Sanji was brought back - first few panels it was hard to recognize him..
She is relevant to the story only as much as she is connected to Naruto since it was his story to being with. I am sorry you cannot digest that Konoha 11 was shown doing their jobs as usual when you asked about them yourself. But exactly what I am to do about it?
You expect so much for side characters but not the main crew- the same crew which is so much emphasize to be equally being on front line when someone new is asked to start reading it. False advertising.
You see when I started reading OP back in the end of 2011- that was what I was told. And I told them back as the series would progress the rest of SH would probably start getting to fade in background just as Konoha 11 members. What you did in your post was to confirm my prediction.
You forget that Hinata's screen time doesn't matter since she didn't play that big a role in Naruto's journey early on. But she was there for him. And in the end she is there with him. Nothing more to it. And Kishi didn't drag story Oda style by telling each characters' reaction to an incident separately in detail. You never had whole chapters dedicated to reactions of every character separately. Just a general glimpse. Why would he suddenly draw extra panels for Tenten now that he had a dead line to finish the manga? These are different stories and told in a different style.
I will leave terribly written part out- because you are conveniently ignoring that I am continuously talking about treatment and role of women in the manga not how their personalities are. So far you have been just complaining about what kind of person she is anyway. It's not like you were giving some constructive criticism about elements of writing.
Actually I question where the hell that life experience go when I talked about Boa. It's funny. But it works only because OP is not to be taken seriously.
Thank you. That was all I was referring to. I am not getting into OP VS Naruto argument. I think part of the reason we do not see both the same way is that OP doesn't try to take itself that seriously. Check author's comment section and when asked about a discrepancy Oda just makes another joke. Kishi tries too hard to make it acceptable thus people question it more.
Both have elements that I like and elements that I don't give a damn about or downright dislike. More so because people are not here to listen objective opinion but trying to argue against that with their own opinion as if it would change other person's opinion somehow. Never happens.
People should be able to accept that others may see things differently without getting so worked up about it. It's just a manga. Your life is not being affected.
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Don't know if you lack reading comprehension or are doing this on purpose.
For example "See^ here you go. You compare it yourself and still you are also angry when I said they are in the same boat." What are you even talking about, I just gave you an example of Oda being sexist towards males, that has nothing to do with Sakura being in the same boat. I'm just tryna to point out your flawed way of looking at things.
You keep saying side crew when I already explained the crew itself has not been too focused on since the New World. There have been so many new characters introduced that even Luffy was getting placed behind Law.
And its not panel time which is the most important thing, its how you use the limited panel time as well. Look at the supernovas for example, hardly seen anything out of them and they are already respectable characters.
It seems to me just from your posts that there is some bitterness towards OP. I don't know if you're doing that just for the sake of argument or not.
For example "See^ here you go. You compare it yourself and still you are also angry when I said they are in the same boat." What are you even talking about, I just gave you an example of Oda being sexist towards males, that has nothing to do with Sakura being in the same boat. I'm just tryna to point out your flawed way of looking at things.
You keep saying side crew when I already explained the crew itself has not been too focused on since the New World. There have been so many new characters introduced that even Luffy was getting placed behind Law.
And its not panel time which is the most important thing, its how you use the limited panel time as well. Look at the supernovas for example, hardly seen anything out of them and they are already respectable characters.
It seems to me just from your posts that there is some bitterness towards OP. I don't know if you're doing that just for the sake of argument or not.
lol I am not angry or bitter. That's a silly Strawman argument. That's not being sexist towards male. You should read up the term sexual objectification more. You really do not understand the term if you confuse it with that. No kidding. Does that drawing makes you think of him just as a body the way a reader focuses on the breasts of nami- picture presented framed by Sanji's hand?
And saying Oda' sexist towards everyone is really not an excuse even if he was ( not that I see it). I am not sure what makes you think it helps the argument you are making.
Supernova's are presented as powerful characters. You respect that power. There are plenty of remember able character in Naruto too. They are just over all less in number.
The argument was over with my last quote, I'm not even trying to counter your posts anymore as I can already predict your replies.
What? Who said anything about sexual objectification? I said it was sexist because she is allowed to beat on the male members and get away with it. Now you're just putting two different things together.
Not just powerful, they are very interesting and unique.
Venomous Cobra
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LMAO what?comparing characters with actual background,relevance to the story and deep ambitions that aren't "naruto-kun" and "sasuke-kun" to hinata and sakura? Characters who actually stand in equal terms with the male characters unlike females in naruto.
This is straight comedy. XD
This is straight comedy. XD
If you could predict my replies then what were you trying to achieve here?
As if you were countering anything when you were trying to make lame analysis about me instead of focusing what I said.
But sexual objectification is ok in your book even if it's the kind which makes it look like not a big deal in a work environment.
And? How does that is of any significance to portrayal of women in the manga? Do you even remember what the thread was about?
Ever heard about agreeing to disagree and leave gracefully instead of leaving silly personal insinuations behind?
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Yup atleast you're right on one thing. 100% A ok.
From the beginning I was just trying to let you know Sakura gets hate because she isn't well written, while Nami is loved because she is. Not because people take Naruto too seriously lol, that doesn't even make sense, the same people who watch Naruto watch One Piece they are similar genres and aimed at the same people. How many times did I have to give you the bleach example, does Bleach get taken more seriously than Naruto?
Right now OP gets a bad chapter and people still praise it, Bleach (and Naruto during latter stages of the war arc) gets a good chapter and people over analyze and are still skeptical.
Is it fair? Maybe not but its something they've earned themselves, by consistently putting out low quality work they now have a bad rep.
Having to fight of sexual objectification daily and your captain not taking it seriously is not called being on equal terms.
And what 'deep' ambition? It's a big ambition to travel around and map the ocean floor but it's not 'deep' just because it's ocean floor.
It was cultivated because of a particular hobby and talent of nami, just the way Sakura became a medic.
Besides since when having an ambition is everything to characterization? It works for one story doesn't mean it works for everyone. I should link you latest chapter from the manga from which you are sporting your ava from. It answers your comment beautifully.
Why does it have to be about revenge or being some kind of hero? Why can't they do things just because they love to do it and be satisfied with it? Especially since they are doing their best at it anyway.
You guys mistake it being story of every character in there when it was just about Naruto to begin with. Obviously it's going to be different than OP. Not only the plot and style- Every manga has it's own tone and focus and this one has a different than OP or say H x H. It goes on and on about moral issues while sparing most characters of guilt. Barring a few most got someone else to blame for their wrongs if not just misunderstood.
That's just your opinion man. What makes you think I should necessary like the kind of portrayal you are ok with and start justifying your opinion over mine?
The bad rep is subjective since a lot of posts I see are complaining about things I don't care about. Sakura's power level not being same as Naruto or how did she make a non- PC comment years ago. That's plain stupid. And I don't even have to like things like that she loves Sasuke despite eveyrthing or that Hinata liked Naruto. It's beside the point. Not being crazy or being so about someone is up to them. People like arranging marriages too much. Is you oppose it because you think they shouldn't have then it goes back to the argument that sexual objectification to that level shouldn't have been either.
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That's just on this base since they have nothing more of relevance to talk about. You guys should be glad otherwise these forums would be dead.
My only issue was you can't put the blame on the fandoms, its not a coincidence when a character is so put down, its not just my opinion, Nami is generally liked and Sakura isn't and since you couldn't understand why you fully blamed the fandoms, the author holds a lot of the responsibility for this.
Btw I don't even dislike Sakura one bit. BUT I can see why so many others have an issue with her.
Also the bad rep isnt subjective, its bad rep. Your take on it might be different but the fact that it has a bad rep is undeniably objective.
Lol.
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Or they could read more mangas and discuss. Because arguments and thread like that aren't that helpful. They only give you illusion of forum activity when they are just toxic activity which actually turns away the more sincere people.
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I am not putting the blame on fandom but you cannot ignore that this "fandom's" behaviour in general when it's always divided on everything in the manga. Nor you should ignore that it's not only the most vocal-on-internet of them who have a right to decide while they are complaining about their personal likings rather than actual writing elements.
Sakura too us unique in her own way. Kishi definitely couldn't achieve what he was looking for her character. But having personal flaws doesn't make a character bad writing. Not being able to portray what you were trying to do makes it deficient on that count. But that's something that writer accepted long time ago. Frankly what he tried to do required more concentrated effort on her but he gave up on it for a long time for whatever reasons. His problem is his over emphasis on moral justifications and habit to spare the character guilt if he can help it. Top it with heavy doze of theme of forgiveness and you get Naruto and Sakura.
I neither like her dislike her. :shrug: I do think she gets lot of unjustified hate though.
I wonder what you think about your own threads...
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Its called narutobase after all. You may see it as toxic right now but its what keeps so many people here still. I'm not gonna say I like it, its absolute trash, gives off the feeling of a really immature forum. But any traffic is good traffic. Sincere people don't post much from my experience lol.
Well on my part I would rather have a more active Manag anime section. For Naruto is over. Remember DBZ? For all it's flaws, people who grew up watching it are going to remember it till the end. Some of them will also come back for every new game/movie or some short chapters it produces. But it's over. So the activity will sustain only when people find more things to talk about.
Saiyaniland would have been dead if they just talked about saiyans.
Funny thing is its Naruto which kept Saiyanisland alive. Naruto was the next big thing, so I guess the more realistic situation is that the Naruto people here move to One Piece, which actually I am starting to see a lot of recently. It has to be done by 1 single show that everyone can share views on rather than various different ones, its almost a fact that the latter wouldn't work out.
Venomous Cobra
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See I knew thsi was about some feminists BS but anyway, if you're speaking about nami getting constant compliments from sanji then I truly fail to see any "objectification" in that, It's rather good since he is parsing her beauty
Actually it is. Every single one of the strawhat had a good ambition thus far, and you can't merely dismiss nami's dream worthiness when all what sakura ever wanted was to be with sasuke, speaking about how small a dream is in not rEALLY advantageous to current argument. Nami as a character with such a big dream did always have great conviction to never give up on it, she never thought of abandoning it, not even once. Plus the true motivation for her dream was something she always had it naturally or rather was something she was born with, not something motivated by personal feelings like sakura.What makes ambitions important is how you manage to achieve your dreams and how hard it was for you to reach that point.
Sakura became a medic thanks to tsunade's training, it was never a talent she purely developed on her own, nami was always connected to maps and the sea, if anything money is the same to nami as being a medic is to sakura.:lol
never said it was everything, in fact a good ambition is one of the smallest things a decent character could offer, I only mentioned it to show how lowly her character really is, Even the true motivation of her dream is unknown according to kishi, Better yet he said she was "addicted".
Now that you mention it, I haven't read the chapter yet.
Well in nami's case she draws maps for the sake of her own ambition, hancock had already achieved everything she wanted, everything but being with luffy which she couldn't even be bothered about, as she's independent unlike a certain person.
Exactly which is why oda tend to give other characters and especially the strawhats a decent amount of development and even relevance at some points of the story, while kishi only focuses his hardest on naruto and sasuke, leaving the rest to either fill the plot holes or just support the main for extra details , and yeah you're correct, it was the story about naruto gradual growing up as character in the story but that didn't justify the poor treatment some characters had as they existed with naruto as well, almost everyone who read part 1 knew that k11 were completely and utterly stepped on by kishi.
Speaking about female characters, can anyone even come close to integra hellsing?
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