You bring up interesting points especially about Sasuke's escape that I didn't link together. Yeah my bad, I meant white zetsu part. I do think Kakashi not being an uchiha also has something to do with him not going blind.
Well we don't know if he is not able to use Kamui. He only mentioned the phasing part of Kamui, and didn't try to teleport, while Madara used teleport but never used phasing.
My thoughts exactly. The eye blindness is definitely something related to Uchiha Blood and Special Chakra only. The latter is released only in Uchiha brains. He lacks them. So, his eye may not work at the optimum level but conversely, it's free from the side-effects as well. Whatever the seal is, it may not be explained, but it clearly hinges upon blood and special chakra.
True. It could be a plot induced factor for Naruto to disallow Obito Kamui. But, in defense of my argument, we know that control is pivotal in managing chakra or even entities. As in Sasuke's case for Orochimaru and here for Tailed Beasts. He couldn't handle one Rinnegan which is why he was not a perfect 10 tails host at first. It took him a while to gain control of it.
I believe it was that massive level of concentration to control the Rinnegan and the Tailed beasts that he couldn't spare anything more.
I disagree with both of you regarding Kakashi's situation and I'll explain why.
Not only did Kakashi complain about nearly going blind during the war, but he directly implies it when his team and Chiyo face off against Itachi (who at the time was a fodder transformed into Itachi) early in Shipuuden. He directly asks Itachi, "How far have your eyes sunk into darkness?". Kakashi was not aware of the Uchiha tablet and thus could not read it. Also, Itachi was the only one who had that knowledge and, judging by his surprise, we can tell he did not tell Kakashi himself.
Without a doubt, this proves Kakashi had already suffered vision loss as soon as the onset of Shipuuden. Sometime after awakening it, he began noticing the decline in vision and by the time he fought Itachi, he was certain it was a fate shared by all MS users.
You guys arguing he's immune to the effect not being an Uchiha is ridiculous. Kakashi's MS is comparable to Madara's wireless Susanoo. If Susanoo can be used once its unlocked (regardless of eye status) than of course MS descend into darkness, no matter who they are transferred into. Once the eye is created, its got all the necessary Uchiha ingredients to go blind one day. Also arguing Kakashi has a pseudo-EMS (having had the eye transferred) is not logical as EMS directly requires an exchange of MS, meaning the person needed to have his own MS for his new pair of MS to become EMS. This exchange is what creates both the lack of blindness and combined pattern. Considering the only direct evidence of EMS requires this criteria, than we must assume its an actual constraint.
I wanted to also clarify something about Edo Madara. You state that Kabuto altered him, which is true, but you did not mention the fact that Madara was indeed revived old. It wasn't as if he was a special summoning, rather he was revived old and Kabuto modified him to become like his prime. I'm not saying you don't think this, but you didn't directly mention it. Some people think he was revived young somehow, but since he had access to the Rinnegan, that means he could only have been revived old from the onset. Considering he only unlocked Rinnegan as an old man and everything.
I disagree with both of you regarding Kakashi's situation and I'll explain why.
Not only did Kakashi complain about nearly going blind during the war, but he directly implies it when his team and Chiyo face off against Itachi (who at the time was a fodder transformed into Itachi) early in Shipuuden. He directly asks Itachi, "How far have your eyes sunk into darkness?". Kakashi was not aware of the Uchiha tablet and thus could not read it. Also, Itachi was the only one who had that knowledge and, judging by his surprise, we can tell he did not tell Kakashi himself.
Umm, what? what does the Uchiha tablet have to do with anything? and how does that random line prove anything? that happened even before Kakashi revealed his mangekyo.
Without a doubt, this proves Kakashi had already suffered vision loss as soon as the onset of Shipuuden. Sometime after awakening it, he began noticing the decline in vision and by the time he fought Itachi, he was certain it was a fate shared by all MS users. You guys arguing he's immune to the effect not being an Uchiha is ridiculous. Kakashi's MS is comparable to Madara's wireless Susanoo. If Susanoo can be used once its unlocked (regardless of eye status) than of course MS descend into darkness, no matter who they are transferred into. Once the eye is created, its got all the necessary Uchiha ingredients to go blind one day. Also arguing Kakashi has a pseudo-EMS (having had the eye transferred) is not logical as EMS directly requires an exchange of MS, meaning the person needed to have his own MS for his new pair of MS to become EMS. This exchange is what creates both the lack of blindness and combined pattern. Considering the only direct evidence of EMS requires this criteria, than we must assume its an actual constraint.
You really aren't making any sense. The first time he ever used it was literally against Deidara as stated by himself. All this stuff about Itachi you are saying are irrelevant and have nothing to do with Kakashi. There was no decline in vision, the first time Kakashi commented on his vision was on the war arc, prior to that he only commented on the fatigue and the chakra drain.
Nobody said he is immune'd, we are saying because the eye doesn't belong originally to him, the effects of blindness didn't occur at the same fast rate, that along with how how Kamui, doesn't put a strain on the eye as much as Ametarusu (where they literally bleed from their eyes). I think I explained it well in the OP, when I compared it to the EMS, it's obviously not the same as EMS, they just share one similar aspect.
I wanted to also clarify something about Edo Madara. You state that Kabuto altered him, which is true, but you did not mention the fact that Madara was indeed revived old. It wasn't as if he was a special summoning, rather he was revived old and Kabuto modified him to become like his prime. I'm not saying you don't think this, but you didn't directly mention it. Some people think he was revived young somehow, but since he had access to the Rinnegan, that means he could only have been revived old from the onset. Considering he only unlocked Rinnegan as an old man and everything.
Uh, no. You are completely wrong here. Madara wasn't revived as old man, then altered to become his prime. His summon was special and was specifically engineered, as Kabuto added Harishama cells. Edo Madara unlocked the Rinnegan literally during his fight with the Ninja alliance. At the moment where Naruto threw a Rasen Shuriken at him:
I disagree with both of you regarding Kakashi's situation and I'll explain why.
Not only did Kakashi complain about nearly going blind during the war, but he directly implies it when his team and Chiyo face off against Itachi (who at the time was a fodder transformed into Itachi) early in Shipuuden. He directly asks Itachi, "How far have your eyes sunk into darkness?". Kakashi was not aware of the Uchiha tablet and thus could not read it. Also, Itachi was the only one who had that knowledge and, judging by his surprise, we can tell he did not tell Kakashi himself.
Without a doubt, this proves Kakashi had already suffered vision loss as soon as the onset of Shipuuden. Sometime after awakening it, he began noticing the decline in vision and by the time he fought Itachi, he was certain it was a fate shared by all MS users.
You guys arguing he's immune to the effect not being an Uchiha is ridiculous. Kakashi's MS is comparable to Madara's wireless Susanoo. If Susanoo can be used once its unlocked (regardless of eye status) than of course MS descend into darkness, no matter who they are transferred into. Once the eye is created, its got all the necessary Uchiha ingredients to go blind one day. Also arguing Kakashi has a pseudo-EMS (having had the eye transferred) is not logical as EMS directly requires an exchange of MS, meaning the person needed to have his own MS for his new pair of MS to become EMS. This exchange is what creates both the lack of blindness and combined pattern. Considering the only direct evidence of EMS requires this criteria, than we must assume its an actual constraint.
I have no clue what the tablet has anything to do with sealing. That claim happened before Shippuden as Kisame directly mentioned MS having an adverse affect on his eye sight. It is not something Kakashi figured out of the blue.
I never said he's immune but he doesn't suffer it at the rate Uchihas do. So, something is not affecting him as it does others and lack of Uchiha genes is the only explanation as sealing is directly associated with their blood and chakra.
EMS is created via two MS pairs. This was explained clearly though the EMS mask with four Sharingan sockets.
It clearly made contact but to be so specific with no proof is fool hearty lol
It obviously hit him as he swapped out.Right after that escape madara states he has almost figured out the limitations of sasuke rinne justu.
This was general or was it just specific for said points? Either way, only point I considered an asspull was sasukes snake escape, only due to how fast the events happened. Then again kamui could get into jinton secs or less before it explodes. Always found speed inconsistent in this series. Zzz
Also on the kamui with madara. How exactly does phasing, sending body part to other dimension, differ from teleporting your body to the other dimension?
This was general or was it just specific for said points? Either way, only point I considered an asspull was sasukes snake escape, only due to how fast the events happened. Then again kamui could get into jinton secs or less before it explodes. Always found speed inconsistent in this series. Zzz
Also on the kamui with madara. How exactly does phasing, sending body part to other dimension, differ from teleporting your body to the other dimension?
So sasuke can summon manda, genjutsu it, reverse summon out of the explosion before being caught in the explosion. Keep in mind the blast had started before sasuke even did any of this.
Read wiki? they are separate abilities, Kakashi only has one along with Long distance, while Obito has both with no long distance.
Chances are Manda was already under a genjutsu. That was played for suspense. Summon *less than a second*, Manda tanks the explosion and Sasuke goes into his mouth, Sasuke reverse summons.
Whatever explanation I will give you, won't be as detailed as the wiki, hence me telling you to read it. The difference is obvious. Teleportation involves the whole body and goes in a swirl to the Kamui dimension. Phasing, sends specific body parts at will, to the Kamui dimension so it looks as if obito phased through objects and people, the appearing part in the real world has no physical presence, but said physical presence exists in the Kamui dimension (i.e Kakashi punching Obito abdomen in the Kamui dimension) . The main point is that they are different abilities and not the same.
Chances are Manda was already under a genjutsu. That was played for suspense. Summon *less than a second*, Manda tanks the explosion and Sasuke goes into his mouth, Sasuke reverse summons.
I would be okay with this if sasuke had manda out or at least the handseal before the explosion went off. Now it seems deidara explosion is just slow or sasuke is doing 4 actions within secs of an explosion.
Whatever explanation I will give you, won't be as detailed as the wiki, hence me telling you to read it. The difference is obvious. Teleportation involves the whole body and goes in a swirl to the Kamui dimension. Phasing, sends specific body parts at will, to the Kamui dimension so it looks as if obito phased through objects and people, the appearing part in the real world has no physical presence, but said physical presence exists in the Kamui dimension (i.e Kakashi punching Obito abdomen in the Kamui dimension) . The main point is that they are different abilities and not the same.
Still not seeing how madara can send portion of his body to the kamui land. Both phasing and teleportation (with madara) involved sending the body holding the juubi power to kamui land.
Don't really like the argument you gave for madara having better control so he can actually use kamui. Seems like an aspull then imo
So sasuke can summon manda, genjutsu it, reverse summon out of the explosion before being caught in the explosion. Keep in mind the blast had started before sasuke even did any of this.
Still not seeing how madara can send portion of his body to the kamui land. Both phasing and teleportation (with madara) involved sending the body holding the juubi power to kamui land.
Don't really like the argument you gave for madara having better control so he can actually use kamui. Seems like an aspull then imo
Juubi Obito wasn't able to use A, as literally stated by himself:
You must be registered for see images
Madara used B.
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see links
Maybe because the teleportation send all the body intact to the Kamui dimension, while phasing causes conflict within the Juubi's chakra, idk. My point with that point in the opening post is to correct those who think Madara can do something Obito couldn't. The rule about the phasing most likely was established because it would make Juubi Obito very difficult to defeat.
What are you even talking about? This isn't even an explanation thought out by me. Those are basic plot points about Obito's Kamui that were explained by him in detail. There are literally and factually two established abilities for Obito's Kamui. Phasing a.k.a intangibility and Teleportation.
A/ Intangibility
You must be registered for see images
B/ Teleportation
You must be registered for see images
Juubi Obito wasn't able to use A, as literally stated by himself:
You must be registered for see images
Madara used B.
You must be registered for see images
I'm not sure if this bad reading comprehension or are you forcefully trying to act ignorant or what. I clearly stated in the opening post that Madara used the teleportation Kamui while Obitio used the phasing, the second explanation was just secondary and not the main ''argument''.
About what you're refuting. The intangibilty and teleportation work in the same way at the end. They both utilize Kamuiland. But I haven't clearly read it because I'm with my gf so I might not be clear
About what you're refuting. The intangibilty and teleportation work in the same way at the end. They both utilize Kamuiland. But I haven't clearly read it because I'm with my gf so I might not be clear
Umm, what? what does the Uchiha tablet have to do with anything? and how does that random line prove anything? that happened even before Kakashi revealed his mangekyo.
You really aren't making any sense. The first time he ever used it was literally against Deidara as stated by himself. All this stuff about Itachi you are saying are irrelevant and have nothing to do with Kakashi. There was no decline in vision, the first time Kakashi commented on his vision was on the war arc, prior to that he only commented on the fatigue and the chakra drain.
Nobody said he is immune'd, we are saying because the eye doesn't belong originally to him, the effects of blindness didn't occur at the same fast rate, that along with how how Kamui, doesn't put a strain on the eye as much as Ametarusu (where they literally bleed from their eyes). I think I explained it well in the OP, when I compared it to the EMS, it's obviously not the same as EMS, they just share one similar aspect.
Uh, no. You are completely wrong here. Madara wasn't revived as old man, then altered to become his prime. His summon was special and was specifically engineered, as Kabuto added Harishama cells. Edo Madara unlocked the Rinnegan literally during his fight with the Ninja alliance. At the moment where Naruto threw a Rasen Shuriken at him:
Here, I'll explain it better as I was just rushing my first post. Here are the pages in question:
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
Kakashi knew about the MS because of what Itachi said in their first fight, summarized on that first page. On the second page, he asks Itachi how much of his sight he's already lost. On the third page Itachi is astounded and realizes that this question proves that Kakashi has already unlocked the MS. Not only had Kakashi unlocked the MS prior to that fight, but he had already used it enough to suffer some vision loss from it. This proves he is not immune to the blinding seal and does not have a pseudo-EMS.
The part about the tablet was to prove that he didn't simply read the tablet to acquire this knowledge. Rather, he experienced it for himself and that is why he knew. By this summation, we can assume that he did in-fact suffer vision loss early in his MS lifespan. Considering he didn't use it in Part 1, he likely only awakened it a short time before Part 2 (clearly he doesn't remember awakening it as a child along with Obito). The only difference was his frequency of use, but he did suffer vision loss before we ever saw him use it.
I'm afraid you failed to recall the details of Edo Tensei, as its an absolute fact that Madara was revived old. I'll try to explain it better.
Edo Tensei has a strict constraint of "granting the revived shinobi access to all jutsu they had while alive". If Madara was revived young, he'd be revived into a state where he had not yet unlocked the Rinnegan. He only had EMS in his prime, not Rinnegan. So for his Edo Tensei self to have access to Rinnegan, that directly implies he must have been revived old to have access to it.
And don't tell me he was revived young and the additional Senju DNA Kabuto gave him made him instantly awaken it. No, because it took Madara DECADES to unlock Rinnegan with a great amount of Hashirama cells inside his body while he was alive. Without a doubt, Madara was revived old, granting him access to EMS and Rinnegan, and Kabuto modified his body to a younger state so that Madara had both his prime body and Rinnegan.
I have no clue what the tablet has anything to do with sealing. That claim happened before Shippuden as Kisame directly mentioned MS having an adverse affect on his eye sight. It is not something Kakashi figured out of the blue.
I never said he's immune but he doesn't suffer it at the rate Uchihas do. So, something is not affecting him as it does others and lack of Uchiha genes is the only explanation as sealing is directly associated with their blood and chakra.
EMS is created via two MS pairs. This was explained clearly though the EMS mask with four Sharingan sockets.
As I said above, the tablet example was only to prove that he didn't read it himself. Rather, any and all knowledge Kakashi had about MS was either from self experience, or from his fight with Itachi. Itachi taught Kakashi about MS, but Kakashi unlocked it himself, used it, and started suffering vision loss by the time they fought for the second time. The scans above prove he suffered vision loss by the start of Shipuuden.
You are defending the idea that he suffers vision loss at a lesser rate, which he does not. He didn't go blind right away because he wasn't using the technique all that often. His lack of Uchiha DNA has no affect on it.
You and I are in the minority when it comes to believing two pairs of MS are required for one pair of EMS. I stated exchange because that is the accepted terminology.
As I said above, the tablet example was only to prove that he didn't read it himself. Rather, any and all knowledge Kakashi had about MS was either from self experience, or from his fight with Itachi. Itachi taught Kakashi about MS, but Kakashi unlocked it himself, used it, and started suffering vision loss by the time they fought for the second time. The scans above prove he suffered vision loss by the start of Shipuuden.
You are defending the idea that he suffers vision loss at a lesser rate, which he does not. He didn't go blind right away because he wasn't using the technique all that often. His lack of Uchiha DNA has no affect on it.
You and I are in the minority when it comes to believing two pairs of MS are required for one pair of EMS. I stated exchange because that is the accepted terminology.
Self-experience would be incorrect, as it was more along the lines of information. Kisame mentioned it quite explicitly, so, it's an up in the air factor that he figured it out on his own when he directly heard it from someone.
It should. Because sealing has to come from somewhere? It's a curse that Uchihas suffer according to Itachi. Danzo was also abusing MS. Now one can argue that he had Hashirama cells, but as it shouldn't halt sealing, he got away with it as well. Obito slowed down the process through the original zetues whose healing far exceeds Hashirama, so he's a special one out of the bunch.
Sealing is directly co-related to Uchiha Chakra and Dna. I cannot see any other explanation to this.
Just because we are the minority, doesn't mean we are wrong. Quite the opposite as the mask was as clear a metaphor for the process as it could have been. Even to remove the confusion of MS designs (as all have their own designs), the author went for 3T patterns.
Self-experience would be incorrect, as it was more along the lines of information. Kisame mentioned it quite explicitly, so, it's an up in the air factor that he figured it out on his own when he directly heard it from someone.
It should. Because sealing has to come from somewhere? It's a curse that Uchihas suffer according to Itachi. Danzo was also abusing MS. Now one can argue that he had Hashirama cells, but as it shouldn't halt sealing, he got away with it as well. Obito slowed down the process through the original zetues whose healing far exceeds Hashirama, so he's a special one out of the bunch.
Sealing is directly co-related to Uchiha Chakra and Dna. I cannot see any other explanation to this.
Just because we are the minority, doesn't mean we are wrong. Quite the opposite as the mask was as clear a metaphor for the process as it could have been. Even to remove the confusion of MS designs (as all have their own designs), the author went for 3T patterns.
What Itachi and Kisame stated in the first fight was not enough information for a non-informed sharingan user to assume the eye eventually descended into darkness. By that I mean they did not give that secret of the MS away, they were only alluding to short term repercussions, not long term. Its unlikely Kisame even knew about the long term affects.
Rather, this situation proves that Kakashi took that information and after awakening the eye himself and experiencing the repercussions, connected the dots laid out to him years ago. Again, these pages and panels prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Kakashi awakened the MS before their second fight and learned first hand about the long term effects.
Clearly Senju DNA slows the affects of the vision loss, but there has been no implication of Kakashi suffering slower loss, only Obito and perhaps Danzo. I agree that they statue with 4 eyes directly implies the pair of EMS requires 2 pairs of MS, but again, most members on this base would beg to differ.
Kakashi didn't use the eye enough to experience vision loss. You are really reaching. Whatever I lost all interest.
Wrong. 100% wrong. Edo Tensi Madara did awaken Rinnegan during that fight, this isn't a theory or anything, that's a straight up basic plot point. What you are saying is completely illogical because:
A/Someone who has the Rinnegan cannot degrade to the Sharingan and upgrade to the Rinnegan again for your nonsense to make sense
B/ From the coffin Madara was shown at a young age
C/ Kabuto states ''I knew it, what comes after the sharingan is the Rinnegan'' if Madara already had the Rinnegan he is talk in one of the pages with Madara makes no sense.
I mean his eyes LITERALLY turn into Rinnegan. Stop with your fanfiction please.
this is the manga:
