Misconceptions/Plotholes/Asspull thread (Naruto manga only)

[NineSNS]

Best thread in NDS that I've seen for quite some time

 

[Kratoss]

That wasn't what I was talking about when I said hit, I meant that chidori and the rasengan did hit him. Plus the black thing zetsu had implanted inside madara was also slowly processing as seen when it was slowly spreading here

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BZ stabbed madara here

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Madara could have easily ordered the limbo to switch here

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There's also the time where the black thing was spreading


Well the body would have completely been switched in a way where her will would be inside the shadow of which he used not madara himself

But Madara was able to use Limbo because he could move during Naruto and Sasuke attack. Here he was paralyzed. Zetsu's hand is already infused into his body, it's not really the same as his situation with Naruto and Sasuke.

 

[shelke]

You bring up interesting points especially about Sasuke's escape that I didn't link together. Yeah my bad, I meant white zetsu part. I do think Kakashi not being an uchiha also has something to do with him not going blind.

Well we don't know if he is not able to use Kamui. He only mentioned the phasing part of Kamui, and didn't try to teleport, while Madara used teleport but never used phasing.

My thoughts exactly. The eye blindness is definitely something related to Uchiha Blood and Special Chakra only. The latter is released only in Uchiha brains. He lacks them. So, his eye may not work at the optimum level but conversely, it's free from the side-effects as well. Whatever the seal is, it may not be explained, but it clearly hinges upon blood and special chakra.

True. It could be a plot induced factor for Naruto to disallow Obito Kamui. But, in defense of my argument, we know that control is pivotal in managing chakra or even entities. As in Sasuke's case for Orochimaru and here for Tailed Beasts. He couldn't handle one Rinnegan which is why he was not a perfect 10 tails host at first. It took him a while to gain control of it.

I believe it was that massive level of concentration to control the Rinnegan and the Tailed beasts that he couldn't spare anything more.

 

[Shino1584]

MY only reply would be to the Kakashi issue. In manga chapter 669, Kakashi states that he's nearly blind in his left eye when Minato asks him to help. I think it might be slower for a non-Uchiha but it still happens.

 

[ninjarasengan]

So, since I like this type of discussion, being less opinion based an all, and has a higher chance of civil discourse, I thought I would make a general thread regarding it. I realize that it's unlikely it will get many replies, since the manga is over, but I felt like getting some plot hole misconceptions of my chest.

So let's get to it. But first, the definition of the word:




Sasuke Great Snake Escape:

Refutation:

Spoiler

The argument that it's a plot hole or an asspull, stems from what I've seen, is that Sasuke didn't have enough chakra to summon Manda.

That is incorrect. There is no way for the reader to gauge how much chakra the character has left. That can only be known through two things.

A/ If the character himself stated it (i.e Kakashi state it a lot)
B/ If a sensory type user, can detect it.

In that fight, neither did Sasuke state he was running low on Chakra, nor was Deidara a sensory type user, or had a means to tell and gauge Sasuke's chakara. It was all speculations and guesses from Deidara's part.

In fact, Deidara already guessed and was proven wrong before the snake summon.

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Another point of view suggests that Sasuke, was lacking in chakra, because he was exhausted. While severe lack of chakra can cause exhaustion and in some cases death (i.e Kakashi again lol), that doesn't mean exhaustion can only occur for that reason exclusively.

The fight in general tired Sasuke, and more importantly, Sasuke using Chidori on himself, to get rid of the nano bombs, took a physical toll on him, as stated by himself:

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''Took a toll on me''

Using Chidori on himself, was Sasuke main reason for being exhausted, he did the same thing again on himself, when Deidara's snakes caught his legs, which led to him failing from fatigue, which Deidara mistakenly thought that it meant he no longer has any charkra left, making that his second wrong speculation/guess

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And another proof, that Sasuke wasn't completely drained out of Chakara:

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He was still able to have the Sharingan activated, even after what he went through.

He also referenced Manda as being another possible trick here:

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Which fits very well, with the fact, that Sugitesu already had a Snake scroll and said ''he really did it''. Which means Manda was an option from the get go.

Ergo this was neither a plot hole, nor an asspull.

Kakashi should be blind, due to using MS multiple times

Refutation

Spoiler

*This is not mine* or rather, only the chakra thing was added from me. But thought I would share anyway.

An original Mangekyo Sharingan puts a strain on the eye. The ocular muscles are placed under a constant strain due to the unique chakra the Mangekyo consumes. That strain causes the user to gradually go blind.

Another person's eye doesn't (for some reason) produce the same strain. So the user's vision is intact. That's why the EMS doesn't give users blindness (i.e Sasuke, Madara)


Itachi - Awakened his Mangekyo on his own, going blind.

Sasuke - Awakened his Mangekyo on his own, gone almost
completely blind, then took Itachi's eyes, and got his vision back, and has a EMS.

Madara - Same as Sasuke.

Kakashi - Remember that the eye didn't originally belong to him. His Mangekyo is more similar to an Eternal than a normal one. The effects of his eye are always shown from the very first arc he used it on, as fatigue and tiredness, and it consumes his Chakara greatly, thus he was only able to do it twice, in the beginning and more than that as his trained more (i.e when he and Naruto met Tobi in the Itachi hunt arc).

Now in the war arc, he is shown to have the same fatigue and lack of Chakara. But he is able to use it so much, because Kyuubi keeps healing/vitalizing him with his Chakara, along with the chakra cloak later on.

Obito - Because Obito has a high concentration of Hashirama Senju's cells. These constantly heal the eye, preventing it from going blind. That's why he doesn't get the fatigue from using the Kamui so much.

It's also worth noting that Madara, Sasuke and Itachi all used Amaetratsu and Susanoo.

How did Madara use Susanoo without an eye

Answer

Spoiler

You only need a pair of Mangekyo Sharingan to awaken it. It was stated that you need the mangekyo to awaken the Susanoo, but nothing more after that. It wasn't directly stated that you need the eyes to be active, to use it. Susanoo is an ability granted to those who awaken the powers of both their Mangekyō Sharingan. It's appears to be a manifestation of Chakara, so maybe that's why.

In it's first ever appearance, Itachi didn't have normal Sharingan activated, let alone his Mangekyo, as he was almost blind

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In chapter 560, Madara used the Susanoo, while having the Rinnegan activated, and not his mangekyo.

Spoiler

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I get the impression that some people think you need to have a Mangekyo, because Sasuke was constantly having it active, when used his own Susanoo. But that's can be explained that Sasuke usually combined both Susanoo and Ameatrasu, and constantly used the later, so he needed to keep it active. And while you don't need it the eye to be active to use Susanoo, it's still helpful to have it, because aside from the new possible powers that comes with it, it's an enhanced version of the normal Sharingan with better generic abilities.

Minato using summoning jutsu when he didn't have an arm

Spoiler

Hagoromo was the one who casted the technique. Minato and the edo kages had their chakra channel-ed through that large summoning symbol, which Hagoromo was the center of, and not just them, but the spirit and chakra of the former kages as well. Thus it was big enough, to be able to summon all of them from a different dimension all together.

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General confusion about Orochimaru and The four Hokage Edo Tensi

Spoiler

And Orochimaru couldn't do this before, because to enter you need a sharingan.

And a theory about Orochimaru in general relevant to this:

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General things about Naruto sage of six path, Naruto flying, healing, etc:

Spoiler

The sage of six path existence was established since the introduction of the Rinnegan. Further more, Naruto power up is him having Rikodu powers, and having the yang seal which is why he was able to save Gai from death, it wasn't a 'miracle':-

Spoiler

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^ That happened more than 100 chapters ago, for all of those saying that Naruto healing power is hax or asspull. He is able to fly, because he has Rikkoudo powers, just like sage of six paths himself, and when Madara and Obito became the Jinchuriki.

So no Naruto is not Jesus.

There is also foreshadowing in the Kage summit arc, which is almost more than 200 chapters before it happened. In that Sasuke and Naruto and Madara and Harishama might be incarnations of his sons.

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Man, I can't believe I didn't remember that, when I watched the arc. It was quite a detailed foreshadowing, even with the faces of Indra and Asurtha there.

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Obito gives the best exposition and foreshadowing :3

Rinne Tensei

Spoiler

It was partly foreshadowed with the king of hell

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It's basically the reverse of this:

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Since it takes life force energy, it can give life force energy.

Also, Life energy jutsu is not a completely new concept, Chiyo did it, in the Kazekage arc

Besides the it had a purpose on the story, so I don't think it's bad in any way, asspull or not.

Why is Madara reanimated to his prime/Young age when he died old

Spoiler

It was explained in the exact chapter Madara was revealed. That Kabuto made him special, and engineered him in a specific way, according to the tablet of the Uchiha.

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And we are later shown, that even knew about Harishama's cells, and planted them into Madara's Edo Tensi Body.

Why is Madara able to use Kamui while Obito couldn't in the Juubi form

Spoiler

Obito wasn't able to use only one part of Kamui. Which is phasing through objects parts.

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Obito couldn't make his body phase so he wasn't able to use the intangibility ability, he didn't use the teleportation. Madara used the teleportation ability, and transported his upper half.

It might also has something to do with Madara being in perfect control as a Juubi, unlike Obito who had difficulty, so the power usage wasn't conflicted in Madara's case. But I think my second explanation is weak, and the first one is more plausible.

We were already shown that Kakashi's eye can use teleporation, off screen. When he got out of the Kamui dimension by himself.

Fate of the Tailed Beast after the host dies

Spoiler

Some people had the impression, that once a Jin is dead, the tailed beast will be released. That is incorrect.

Spoiler

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It's pretty clear from the beginning of the series, this wouldn't be the case, because Kyuubi wouldn't have wanted to lose control, when he could have just let him died.

Well, that's the most common ones from what I remember.

So list the plot holes you think the series has. You can list asspulls as well:

Things people commonly call plot-holes and ass-pulls

Sakura's forehead seal.

Obito returning from the dead and entering Kakashi.

Kakashi easily using Perfect Susanoo.

Sakura punching Kaguya.

Nagato changing his ways after his interaction with Naruto.

Kurama gathering natural energy.

Minato having Sage mode.

Izanami.

Kaguya plot twist.

Obito and Kakashi moving easily in Kaguya's gravity dimension.


Though, personally, I wouldn't qualify them as such.:bdpf:

 

[ChicagoJhawk]

Take notice future posters, this is how u make a thread without a giant wall of text but instead being nicely spaced out

 

[Kratoss]

Sakura's forehead seal.

She is Tsunade's student. It's not the least bit surprising that she was able to accomplish that. And her connection with Slugs have been foreshadowed from as early as chapter 4

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Obito returning from the dead and entering Kakashi.

I've read two plausible theories regarding the whole situation.

Spoiler

Luckily the *********** version is up, having read that, the only thing that lacks an explanation is Kakashi managing to use a final Susanoo.

Obito talking with Kakashi: one thing that can be said is that as long as one's chakra remains in the physical world, the owner of said chakra has some form of control over it even if they already died. Examples of this are the Sage of the six paths and his children. Hagoromo was able to give away his own chakra to Naruto and Sasuke and also use Madara's lower half to appear in front of the Hokage.

His sons, even after dying, still had some control over their chakra that lingered, after all Hagoromo said that Ashura had chosen Naruto to reincarnate.

Obito even said something along those lines in this very chapter: "Chakra is the power that connects these two worlds."

And of course, something we've known for a very long time is that:

• Chakra is a mix of spiritual and physical energies (older, better known version)
• Chakra is the power used by Shinobi to mix their inner spiritual and physical energies (newer version introduced in chapter 665)

The way it is shown in this chapter, Obito gave all of his chakra to Kakashi.

Kakashi obtaining Sharingan: Nagato was the one who did this before. When he was still alive he was the only Rinnegan user in the world yet he could use techniques exclusive to the Rinnegan through dead bodies by simply having his chakra run through them. Something that came with this was the dead bodies, his paths, all having the Rinnegan.

If Obito's chakra is running through Kakashi I don't see why Kakashi couldn't use the Sharingan.

Well I'm just gonna put his theories in here:

"First of all Kakashi using the Sharingan is obviously because of the Obito's Uchiha chakra. But how?Remember back in chapter 619, Tobirama explained that the Uchiha's special chakra effects the Optic nerve and that is how they awaken the Sharingan. In this case Obito's chakra obviously effected Kakashi's optic nerve and that is how he has the Mangekyo. What about stabilised Susanoo? The manga NEVER EVER mentions that you need Eternal Mangekyo to use stabilised/perfect Susanoo (i did research). So, you can either argue for or against in this case. I'm probably guessing this but i think it's because Obito once had the Rinnegan and his Susanoo being stabilised kind of make sense. Another thing you may be asking yourself is: shouldn't his soul/moving be moving to the next life after the body is destroyed? how is he controlling it? Yes if you the person wants to and no if they don't (but this is temporary as it was said before and in this chapter, 688). This soul/chakra thing being controlled before it leaves the body was established when the Edo tensei was released, remember? Madara was able to control his chakra/soul before it left the body and also Danny phantom, i mean Dan (Tsunade's lover) was able to control his chakra and use jutsu to fly to Tsunade to save her and give her some of his chakra.

References: chapter 591 and chapter 619"

I actually checked it and true enough Dan and Madara willed themselves to linger just for a moment. In Dan's case he was using a jutsu (and eventually gave Tsunade his chakra, which I assume is how Kakashi became reinvigorated after receiving what's left of Obito's). In Madara's case he used a jutsu to overwrite the Edo Tensei after his body already crumbled. There was also Kakashi who despite losing all of his chakra against Pain also lingered and eventually willed himself back to life despite being technically dead.

Kakashi easily using Perfect Susanoo.

That was pretty bad and pointless tbh, so much that it doesn't really matter if it was an asspull or not. But technically he met the conditions needed for a Susanoo, a pair of Mangekyo Sharingan.

Sakura punching Kaguya.

What's weird about that lol?

Nagato changing his ways after his interaction with Naruto.

I'm not sure how the term ''asspull'' can be even applied here

Kurama gathering natural energy.

When did that happen? if in the Naruto vs Sasuke final fight. That wasn't Kurama, there was a clone on his head gathering natural energy.

Minato having Sage mode.

He is Jiraiya's student and is a genius.

quote]Izanami.[/quote]
Japanese mythology

Kaguya plot twist.

Obito and Kakashi moving easily in Kaguya's gravity dimension.

There have been foreshadowing for her and Black zetsu

She changed the gravity to focus only on Sasuke and Naruto when she fired her bones.



Though, personally, I wouldn't qualify them as such.:bdpf:[/QUOTE]

 

[Pukkake Pokayo]

<div class="bbWrapper">Didn't Sasuke say something vs Deidera to insinuate that he was out of chakra, pretty much? He looked terified and ran from memory. Maybe it was just the anime.</div>

 

[awesomeseimei]

Liking because it's indeed well thought-out and organized.

Personally I never have many issues with fictional universes' inner logic and consistency since it's always up to the author anyway. Unless they are supposed to be scientific an fail, that is.

Still, alternate interpretations are always possible, too.

 

[Narutohokage324]

Cool thread

 

[Ken Kaneki]

Madara awakening rinnegan in both eyes after he used up one eye for Izanagi

 

[Kratoss]

Madara awakening rinnegan in both eyes after he used up one eye for Izanagi

Huh? Madara never used Izanagi.

 

[TrollKing]

Agreed. Here is her foreshadowing in that specific moment:

Spoiler

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She was already inside Madara because he absorbed the tree.

It appeared JJ madara was already in a woman's body, so he was digging his own grave. Even me the person refused to acknowledge kaguya isn't the ripper, I had to say kaguya was about to come out of madara's body or turning from madara's body. It's a matter of time before bz or kaguya solo him. Kaguya is a power madara could never control and he shouldn't have tried if he didn't want to pay the price which he did

 

[Narutohokage324]

Huh? Madara never used Izanagi.

Spoiler

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[Kratoss]

Spoiler

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My bad lol. I only read that weird plot twist once, so I don't remember much about it.

Madara awakening rinnegan in both eyes after he used up one eye for Izanagi

He had spare eyes:

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That implies that he had a stock of them and since one of his eyes were gone, he replaced it.

 

[Ken Kaneki]

He had spare eyes:

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That implies that he had a stock of them and since one of his eyes were gone, he replaced it.

I am pretty sure of that the eye actually used for Izanagi was his own actual eye. The timeline will make it clearer.

1) Madara vs Hashirama. VOTE :- Madara is using his (or formerly Izuna's) eyes. This is because he unleashed all of his EMS arsenal against Hashirama.
2) He dies with the same set of eyes.
3) He uses delayed Izanagi to revive himself. Now if you see the timeline, Madara has not had a chance to replace his eye, so he programmed Izanagi on his (or formerly Izuna's) set.
4) He awakens Rinnegan much later.

A) Now if I consider your theory that he replaced his eye later. then it would mean that you can activate next levels of Sharingan on someone else's eye. Not only has this never be shown anywhere else in Manga, but if this were true, it would mean that other clans can steal sharingan and activate next levels of it on their own. So I doubt this is the case

B) If you consider the situation that Madara awakened Rinnegan on his dead eye, then too it doesn't make sense. The eye is said to be forever dead after you have used Izanagi. How come it becomes alive when you awaken Rinnegan?

 

[Kratoss]

I am pretty sure of that the eye actually used for Izanagi was his own actual eye.

A) Now if I consider your theory that he replaced his eye later. then it would mean that you can activate next levels of Sharingan on someone else's eye. Not only has this never be shown anywhere else in Manga, but if this were true, it would mean that other clans can steal sharingan and activate next levels of it on their own. So I doubt this is the case

B) If you consider the situation that Madara awakened Rinnegan on his dead eye, then too it doesn't make sense. The eye is said to be forever dead after you have used Izanagi. How come it becomes alive when you awaken Rinnegan?

Yeah I know it was his own eye, I didn't say or imply otherwise.

Um, remember Kakashi? he had a normal Sharingan implanted until it was awakened because of Rin. So having your natural eye doesn't seem relevant for them to go next level. Not everybody can simply awaken the sharingan not even those who posses the Uchiha bloodline. Awakening the Sharingan itself doesn't happen for every Uchiha, and the mangekyo is very rare for those with 3 tome sharigan. I'm not sure what you mean by other clans and how it relates here to your point.

Madara awakened the Rinnegan because he fused his chakra with Asthura's. Later on the sage says it's the combination of those two plus the Kyuubi's that Madara had. So he met the conditions, one of them not being his original eye is not relevant.

 

[Ken Kaneki]

Yeah I know it was his own eye, I didn't say or imply otherwise.

Um, remember Kakashi? he had a normal Sharingan implanted until it was awakened because of Rin. So having your natural eye doesn't seem relevant for them to go next level. Not everybody can simply awaken the sharingan not even those who posses the Uchiha bloodline. Awakening the Sharingan itself doesn't happen for every Uchiha, and the mangekyo is very rare for those with 3 tome sharigan. I'm not sure what you mean by other clans and how it relates here to your point.

Madara awakened the Rinnegan because he fused his chakra with Asthura's. Later on the sage says it's the combination of those two plus the Kyuubi's that Madara had. So he met the conditions, one of them not being his original eye is not relevant.

You mean when Obito awakened his 3T and his MS ?

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Kakashi had Obito's eye and Obito awakened his 3T and MS and Kakashi got it for free

 

[Kratoss]

You mean when Obito awakened his 3T and his MS ?

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Kakashi had Obito's eye and Obito awakened his 3T and MS and Kakashi got it for free

I really don't think so. They awakened them at the same time because of the same tragic event. There is no reason for one separate eye to awaken because of another. Obito has only control of one eye, it makes zero sense his older eye, the one that's not even in his eye socket, would be affected. If we follow this logic, then Obito should have control over the borrowed eye, yet he doesn't, what happens to one eye should affect the other, yet that also never happened. The two eyes are only linked in their Kamui dimension.

It was drawn like this for dramatic/artistic effect.

 

[ninjarasengan]

Madara awakening rinnegan in both eyes after he used up one eye for Izanagi

My bad lol. I only read that weird plot twist once, so I don't remember much about it.


He had spare eyes:

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That implies that he had a stock of them and since one of his eyes were gone, he replaced it.

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It's possible that he used Izanagi on Izuna's right eye. Then reimplanted his original eyes to awaken Rinnegan.

He gave his true/original eyes to Nagato and implanted Izuna's undamaged left eye...which is why he didn't have a right eye when he met Obito.

This wouldn't go against what was said about the Uchiha forbidden jutsu.