Misconception; Jiraiya > Kisame and Jiraiya=/> Itachi

[EliteKakashi]

All this debate will ever be is hypotheticals. You debate is faulty because you're saying they weren't scared of Jiraiya and were more than willing to take him on. We've seen numerous times in this series where inferior ninja were more than willing to take on stronger opponents. Just using my favorite character as an example: Kakashi vs Orochimaru, Kakashi vs Pain. While yes, after Oro left he considered himself to be stupid, he still more than stood his ground when Oro was there.

Against Pain he even said something to the effect of "Lord Jiraiya took on 6 of these?". He knew he was inferior to Pain, even just fighting 2 paths, but that didn't change anything. No ninja will show fear(well, at least, no good ninja) when trying to complete a mission or protect their village, regardless of the opponent. The best example of that may even be Konohamaru jumping in and fighting a path of Pain.

The Jiraiya is superior side has holes as well, obviously. Things have been said in this manga that were 100% wrong later on. All people are going off is what a character said, and that's obviously not a whole lot given what this manga has shown in the past.

Also, I feel people often take Jiraiya stating he could kill them both right there the wrong way. He could kill them both right then and there because it was in the perfect situation for him. They're in an enclosed space and if it wasn't for amaterasu, it(the toad belly) does kill them. I don't think he would say the same if they were out in the open and he couldn't enclose them so easily.

 

[siyo]

I think you mean feats > hype > speculation.
You say manga > Blaze, yet in the manga it was said that kisame + itachi + back up < jiraiya, but in this instance you call it hype and not what they said in that same scene. To me hype is when one character praises another or has received great recognition.

Its true itachi had plans for sasuke. Its also true that after the releases its fair to say he said what he said, not because he particularly feared him, but because he had other reasons. kisame on the other hand was hyping him up, when the time came there was no such thing.

Anyway we clearly believe in different things so lets just put that aside. I DO However believe that until one character has fought another, only then can they truly admit something

Are we really arguing semantics ? Ok, Manga + context > Blaze.As i said Kisame had no motive to lie/exaggerate which means the burden of proof is on you.Unless Kisame directly states that he was hyping up Jiraiya, you simply can't prove that the statement was in insincere.This much should be obvious and we agree on the rest so it shouldn't really be this complicated .I can't really judge your theory about characters needing to fight each other...

Agree, let's move on.

bold part: Fixed

 

[Blaze Release]

Are we really arguing semantics ? Ok, Manga + context > Blaze.As i said Kisame had no motive to lie/exaggerate which means the burden of proof is on you.Unless Kisame directly states that he was hyping up Jiraiya, you simply can't prove that the statement was in insincere.This much should be obvious and we agree on the rest so it shouldn't really be this complicated .I can't really judge your theory about characters needing to fight each other...

Agree, let's move on.

bold part: Fixed

Kisame might not have a motive to lie but he did show respect/hype up a sannin. Obviously he wouldnt state that he was hyping him up, but its pretty clear. Anyway it makes sense to say once a character has lost can what they saw actually mean something.

Agreed lets move on, but if we were to go solely by feats + abilities shown and not what a character has said kisame > jiraiya

All this debate will ever be is hypotheticals. You debate is faulty because you're saying they weren't scared of Jiraiya and were more than willing to take him on. We've seen numerous times in this series where inferior ninja were more than willing to take on stronger opponents. Just using my favorite character as an example: Kakashi vs Orochimaru, Kakashi vs Pain. While yes, after Oro left he considered himself to be stupid, he still more than stood his ground when Oro was there.

Against Pain he even said something to the effect of "Lord Jiraiya took on 6 of these?". He knew he was inferior to Pain, even just fighting 2 paths, but that didn't change anything. No ninja will show fear(well, at least, no good ninja) when trying to complete a mission or protect their village, regardless of the opponent. The best example of that may even be Konohamaru jumping in and fighting a path of Pain.

The Jiraiya is superior side has holes as well, obviously. Things have been said in this manga that were 100% wrong later on. All people are going off is what a character said, and that's obviously not a whole lot given what this manga has shown in the past.

Also, I feel people often take Jiraiya stating he could kill them both right there the wrong way. He could kill them both right then and there because it was in the perfect situation for him. They're in an enclosed space and if it wasn't for amaterasu, it(the toad belly) does kill them. I don't think he would say the same if they were out in the open and he couldn't enclose them so easily.

Part of my argument was based on the fact that they didnt exactly show any inferiority when it came down to business, unlike before. I do agree that in most cases a ninja wouldnt show such emotion in front of an enemy, but to say jiraiya > kisame, because of what kisame said before their meeting isnt correct either and thats why i said what i said about them finally meeting.

At the highlighted part, thats basically the whole point of this thread from the start. U_U. People basically saying jiraiya > kisame or itachi = jiraiya because they said so. Forgetting that a characters word shouldnt be taken absolute but also alot of things has changed in part 2. For example kisame has shown us more in part 2 which leads me to believe that he can defeat jiraiya.

At the last paragraph, what jiraiya said shouldnt taken seriously. He had great confidence in his toad stomach technique when he said that. Whether he has the advantage whilst in that environment is arguable. Needless to say in open space either kisame or itachi should beat him. The idea of both + back up < jiraiya isnt right, but you'd still get people on here saying this U_U

I am not translating it. I presented you exact pages. You are trying to unsee it. I'm only making my point clear that you yourself are bending a direct scene to something you want to believe in. And yet you go on dishing other people for the same thing.

Such threads dealing with imaginary scenario about what would/could/should have happnned cannot claim to have the final verdict and whole truth on one's side.

Im trying to fully understand the whole sceanrio. From itachi's motive to come to konoha, to his motive to distract jiraiya........ You could say im denting a direct scene to something i want to believe in. That may be true, but ive reasons for 'bending' those scenes.

 

[xxSAGExx]

I made it sound as if itachi was there to talk to danzo?, if i did then thats not how it was supposed to come out. How can you say he doesnt owe jiraiya anything when he at that time was the strongest recognisable ninja konoha had who was the protector of naruto. Imo he did all he could to deter a confrontation where it would be him + kisame against jiraiya. Seems like alot of people use the fact that he told kisame to apparently 'kill' kakashi, but also didnt stop kisame from trying to cut off naruto's leg, but forget that kakashi himself questioned why itachi didnt kill him with tsukuyomi.

The way itachi lived, but also current (although they are past now) events leads me to believe that majority of what he said/did was a lie in part 1. I do agree that new info beats old info and if thats the case why are we having this argument after all if new info beats old info, what we now know about itachi should beat what we thought about him in part 1

The only thing is we don't know if Tsukuyomi can actually kill someone or at least someone strong enough to survive. Tsukuyomi could just be to immobilize an opponent with toture. It was never used to kill someone at all, if it did kill then wouldn't Kabuto have Itachi kill Naruto and Bee with it? Kabuto planned on killing them to later revive them. From what we saw from Itachi he should be able to takeout Akatsuki. It just don't seem like Itachi who is a pacifist to have all killing moves, a sword that seals, a genjutsu that immobilize and a flame that burns. Itachi use Tsukuyomi more than other jutsus while Sasuke use Amaterasu and Sasunoo more.

 

[Gregjader]

Kisame said he was no match for Jiraya but in front of him looks confident and mocked him => Kisame > Jiraya. Really?! Facing someone stronger than you, will you show your fear and wet your pants or will you try to look confident and make him doubt? Besides they were 2 on 1. Just saying.
It's common on NB to define a character by the strongest techs they showed. As for it when it come to Jiraya it's SM, Minato FTG and Rasengan, Itachi/Sasuke Susanoo etc. Just to remind you we've not seen all of what they could do.
Kisame using Suiton in a hallway?! What about his patner?! A ceil like the one he used against Bee?! They were near The Hidden Leaf. Fusion with Samehada?! Where's the point? We don't even know if he could do it at that time. The environment has a role to play in a fight.
AS far as I'm concerned this is Kishi's manga. Only he decides the outcome of a fight. But:
Jiraya: WAR in his 20ies + 40 years traveling, fighting, gathering intel and experience in the 5 nations
Itachi: 18 to 20, sick, tired
Kisame: ?
We all have characters we like more than others, we would fight for, but sometimes we need to be rational and admit we're wrong.

 

[Blaze Release]

The only thing is we don't know if Tsukuyomi can actually kill someone or at least someone strong enough to survive. Tsukuyomi could just be to immobilize an opponent with toture. It was never used to kill someone at all, if it did kill then wouldn't Kabuto have Itachi kill Naruto and Bee with it? Kabuto planned on killing them to later revive them. From what we saw from Itachi he should be able to takeout Akatsuki. It just don't seem like Itachi who is a pacifist to have all killing moves, a sword that seals, a genjutsu that immobilize and a flame that burns. Itachi use Tsukuyomi more than other jutsus while Sasuke use Amaterasu and Sasunoo more.

Just because a technique hasnt killed doesnt mean it cannot kill. Has dust release killed anybody. Has c4 or c0 killed anybody yet?. Btw ive great reasons for believing that when itachi told kisame to capture kakashi, he may have possibly noted the presence of gai and knew he would intervene. Similar to when itachi had his back turned and yet noted sasuke's presence even before naruto and kisame. As for you using kabuto in this is pointless. How did it take for itachi to break free from IWR. Secondly itachi is a pacifist but he does defend himself when necessarily. You could argue that, thats why his main fighting style is sharigan genjutsu because it limits damage done to an opponent. He oculdve easily cut oro's head of instead of his hand, yet he didnt.

Kisame said he was no match for Jiraya but in front of him looks confident and mocked him => Kisame > Jiraya. Really?! Facing someone stronger than you, will you show your fear and wet your pants or will you try to look confident and make him doubt? Besides they were 2 on 1. Just saying.
It's common on NB to define a character by the strongest techs they showed. As for it when it come to Jiraya it's SM, Minato FTG and Rasengan, Itachi/Sasuke Susanoo etc. Just to remind you we've not seen all of what they could do.
Kisame using Suiton in a hallway?! What about his patner?! A ceil like the one he used against Bee?! They were near The Hidden Leaf. Fusion with Samehada?! Where's the point? We don't even know if he could do it at that time. The environment has a role to play in a fight.
AS far as I'm concerned this is Kishi's manga. Only he decides the outcome of a fight. But:
Jiraya: WAR in his 20ies + 40 years traveling, fighting, gathering intel and experience in the 5 nations
Itachi: 18 to 20, sick, tired
Kisame: ?
We all have characters we like more than others, we would fight for, but sometimes we need to be rational and admit we're wrong.

At the highlighted part ive already argued him and accepted that a ninja wouldnt show such emotion in front of an enemy, but at the same time loads of characters have given praise to a fellow ninja, which should have no influence when we decide who we think would win a fight. I do agree that only kishi is one who determines the outcome of a fight.

But to say jiraiya has more experience than them has little relevance in naruto. Not after what an 11-13 year old itachi has already done to orochimaru, but also currently some of the strongest characters are much younger than jiraiya and lack experience, but they would still defeat him

 

[Gregjader]

How do you define strong? It is about Power? Than yes you would be right. But this is Kishi's saying " A master with a rock can beat a ninja with a kunai"

 

[Blaze Release]

How do you define strong? It is about Power? Than yes you would be right. But this is Kishi's saying " A master with a rock can beat a ninja with a kunai"

I define strength as a combination of many things.
Currently with the way the manga is going, a time comes when power > everything else.

 

[Prince Charles]

just because kisame has shown more feats then jirayia doesnt meen kisame>jiraiya thats a false statement we never seen the white fang in battle it was said he as powerful and strong and respected in the village so can we say ino>white fang just because shes shown more feats and abilities? no we cant because obviously white fang>ino. not flaming your thread it was very well stated and ima +rep you for that.

 

[Gregjader]

Part of it tends to prove you're right. But why do Oonoki thinks they stand a chance against Edo Madara? How could Hiruzen keep up with the 1st, the 2nd and Oro?

 

[Arrakesh]

Kisame said he was no match for Jiraya but in front of him looks confident and mocked him => Kisame > Jiraya. Really?! Facing someone stronger than you, will you show your fear and wet your pants or will you try to look confident and make him doubt? Besides they were 2 on 1. Just saying.
It's common on NB to define a character by the strongest techs they showed. As for it when it come to Jiraya it's SM, Minato FTG and Rasengan, Itachi/Sasuke Susanoo etc. Just to remind you we've not seen all of what they could do.
Kisame using Suiton in a hallway?! What about his patner?! A ceil like the one he used against Bee?! They were near The Hidden Leaf. Fusion with Samehada?! Where's the point? We don't even know if he could do it at that time. The environment has a role to play in a fight.
AS far as I'm concerned this is Kishi's manga. Only he decides the outcome of a fight. But:
Jiraya: WAR in his 20ies + 40 years traveling, fighting, gathering intel and experience in the 5 nations
Itachi: 18 to 20, sick, tired
Kisame: ?
We all have characters we like more than others, we would fight for, but sometimes we need to be rational and admit we're wrong.

Despite the good explanation on the quoted post, there is one other point that remains to be addressed. Apart of the Pain/Nagato vs Jiraya fight, where did we actually see Jiraya fighting for real? Jiraya stood his ground against Pain and only lost because he didn't know the extension of Pain's abilities and also because he tried to talk Nagato out of it, since he was one of his previous students. I am not saying Jiraya was stronger than Pain, for I believe he wasn't, but anyone can see they were close in strenght. Also in the end of the fight, Jiraya could have tried to escape, but he believed it was more important to make sure the information was safely delivered.

Now, apart of this fight, where did we see Jiraya fighting for real? the answer is simple, nowhere. Against Oro, he was still drugged by Tsunade. Against Hanzou, he was still in his 20s, not even close to the current level, PLUS, he didn't use the Sage Mode in the Hanzou fight, or at least, the manga/anime didn't show it. Do you really think he would have lost to Hanzou, had he used it?

Most of this discussion is based on the battle Gai vs. Kisame, where Kisame used some major jutsu against Gai, but in the end, he got defeated pretty badly, so badly he was in fact captured afterwards.

So, it is my strong belief that Jiraya is stronger than Kirame, even with samehada. Using Naruto's strategy, what would happen if Kisame was to absorb too much of nature's energy? Another frog stone for start. We must also keep in mind that Jiraya's strenght is not based on power alone, but also on his mind and skill set. He has been able to gather information on Akatusike, work as a spy for decades, and never be caught or defeated. Plus, remember what Shikamaru's father said about Naruto using the SM - that he was on a class of his own. The same would be applied to Jiraya. Yet, by no means I am diminishing Kisame here, nor I am saying it would be an easy fight. It could also happen for Kisame to win, though it is unlikely. It would all depend on the environment, which jutsus one chose to use, and all those old same variables.

However, on the matter Itachi vs. Jiraya, if we had an abilities battle, without the use of MS, Jiraya would probably be the winner, but considering the MS, Itachi would win by far. Still, to lose to ITachi is no shame, considering he was amongst the stronger Uchiha in history, along with Shishui and Madara /Izuma themselves.

I define strength as a combination of many things.
Currently with the way the manga is going, a time comes when power > everything else.

Not really, just remember how Naruto defeated the 3rd Raikage. His rasenshuriken didn't work, nor he was able to keep up against him in the Kyubi mode. He had to use his head to defeat the Raikage, and a simple Rasegan used right. That fight was not about power, it was about skill.

 

[Blaze Release]

just because kisame has shown more feats then jirayia doesnt meen kisame>jiraiya thats a false statement we never seen the white fang in battle it was said he as powerful and strong and respected in the village so can we say ino>white fang just because shes shown more feats and abilities? no we cant because obviously white fang>ino. not flaming your thread it was very well stated and ima +rep you for that.

Partly agree that although kisame has more impressive feats shown than jiraiya doesnt mean kisame > jiraiya. Similarly just because kisame has said in part 1 that he is inferior to jiraiya doesnt mean jiraiya > kisame. Going by techniques shown though id say kisame > jiraiya.

Btw you are a lier, not only you though. Loads of people say + rep, but they dont do it :flaw:

Part of it tends to prove you're right. But why do Oonoki thinks they stand a chance against Edo Madara? How could Hiruzen keep up with the 1st, the 2nd and Oro?

Lets not get of topic, but yo answer your question. Oonoki is fighting along 4 other kages who i presume are willing to sacrifice their life for the ninja world. Similarly that can be said about sarutobi, although in this case the edo hokages power paled

 

[Prince Charles]

Partly agree that although kisame has more impressive feats shown than jiraiya doesnt mean kisame > jiraiya. Similarly just because kisame has said in part 1 that he is inferior to jiraiya doesnt mean jiraiya > kisame. Going by techniques shown though id say kisame > jiraiya.

Btw you are a lier, not only you though. Loads of people say + rep, but they dont do it :flaw:



Lets not get of topic, but yo answer your question. Oonoki is fighting along 4 other kages who i presume are willing to sacrifice their life for the ninja world. Similarly that can be said about sarutobi, although in this case the edo hokages power paled

no im not im going to +rep you cus i liked your thread sometimes it may slip my mind because i have more important things to think about i cant always remember to +rep someone but yea im going to +rep right now

 

[Gregjader]

Edo Madara has EMS + Rinnegan + Mokuton. He is by Kabuto's saying the closest to the S06p's power.In term of power do you think a Kekkai Genkai + a kekkai Tota + Gaara + Tsunade + A ~= Madara's power?

 

[Blaze Release]

Despite the good explanation on the quoted post, there is one other point that remains to be addressed. Apart of the Pain/Nagato vs Jiraya fight, where did we actually see Jiraya fighting for real? Jiraya stood his ground against Pain and only lost because he didn't know the extension of Pain's abilities and also because he tried to talk Nagato out of it, since he was one of his previous students. I am not saying Jiraya was stronger than Pain, for I believe he wasn't, but anyone can see they were close in strenght. Also in the end of the fight, Jiraya could have tried to escape, but he believed it was more important to make sure the information was safely delivered.

Now, apart of this fight, where did we see Jiraya fighting for real? the answer is simple, nowhere. Against Oro, he was still drugged by Tsunade. Against Hanzou, he was still in his 20s, not even close to the current level, PLUS, he didn't use the Sage Mode in the Hanzou fight, or at least, the manga/anime didn't show it. Do you really think he would have lost to Hanzou, had he used it?

Most of this discussion is based on the battle Gai vs. Kisame, where Kisame used some major jutsu against Gai, but in the end, he got defeated pretty badly, so badly he was in fact captured afterwards.

So, it is my strong belief that Jiraya is stronger than Kirame, even with samehada. Using Naruto's strategy, what would happen if Kisame was to absorb too much of nature's energy? Another frog stone for start. We must also keep in mind that Jiraya's strenght is not based on power alone, but also on his mind and skill set. He has been able to gather information on Akatusike, work as a spy for decades, and never be caught or defeated. Plus, remember what Shikamaru's father said about Naruto using the SM - that he was on a class of his own. The same would be applied to Jiraya. Yet, by no means I am diminishing Kisame here, nor I am saying it would be an easy fight. It could also happen for Kisame to win, though it is unlikely. It would all depend on the environment, which jutsus one chose to use, and all those old same variables.

However, on the matter Itachi vs. Jiraya, if we had an abilities battle, without the use of MS, Jiraya would probably be the winner, but considering the MS, Itachi would win by far. Still, to lose to ITachi is no shame, considering he was amongst the stronger Uchiha in history, along with Shishui and Madara /Izuma themselves.

I think i might need to create why i believe kisame > jiraiya regardless of the poll results. I agree that in sm its pretty equal if kisame also fuses with samahada. But the question is can jiraiya get into sm against kisame and i believe he cannot

 

[xxSAGExx]

Just because a technique hasnt killed doesnt mean it cannot kill. Has dust release killed anybody. Has c4 or c0 killed anybody yet?. Btw ive great reasons for believing that when itachi told kisame to capture kakashi, he may have possibly noted the presence of gai and knew he would intervene. Similar to when itachi had his back turned and yet noted sasuke's presence even before naruto and kisame. As for you using kabuto in this is pointless. How did it take for itachi to break free from IWR. Secondly itachi is a pacifist but he does defend himself when necessarily. You could argue that, thats why his main fighting style is sharigan genjutsu because it limits damage done to an opponent. He oculdve easily cut oro's head of instead of his hand, yet he didnt.

I think Tsukuyomi's way of killing is the after-effect, like how Kakashi and Sasuke was hospitalize or leave them open for an attack. I also think Itachi use genjutsu to finish the battle fast so he doesn't push himself to hard and suffer from his illness. For all we know Itachi knew Orochimaru would go after Sasuke and used him to make Sasuke stronger, he knew Orochimaru was surpressed in Sasuke and that's something he shouldn't know unless he kept an eye on Sasuke. Itachi simply sensed Sasuke first, it's not like Sasuke was trying to use stealth at the time. No one noticed when Jiraiya came, Jiraiya has great Stealthing ability that he got from spying on girl (flashback shows Jiraiya bragging about it with Hiruzen. Hiruzen asked to join him one day to see how good his stealth ability. Jiraiya saw thru this and called him a prevert for wanting to spy on the girls lol). Guy a Jounin has way better stealthing ability than Sasuke a Genin and Itachi wouldn't know if Guy would make it in time to counter Kisame. Itachi does not have sensory ability to tell how fast someone is going like Karin can do, he simply can tell when someone is nearby. This alone should convince you Itachi didn't know if Kakashi/Naruto would have been saved if he knew someone was close by.

 

[Gregjader]

I think i might need to create why i believe kisame > jiraiya regardless of the poll results. I agree that in sm its pretty equal if kisame also fuses with samahada. But the question is can jiraiya get into sm against kisame and i believe he cannot

He cannot. That's my point. It's an absolute. Regardless of the environment, of him having intel on Kisame, of him having for what we saw Doton and Katon affinity?!

 

[Blaze Release]

I think Tsukuyomi's way of killing is the after-effect, like how Kakashi and Sasuke was hospitalize or leave them open for an attack. I also think Itachi use genjutsu to finish the battle fast so he doesn't push himself to hard and suffer from his illness. For all we know Itachi knew Orochimaru would go after Sasuke and used him to make Sasuke stronger, he knew Orochimaru was surpressed in Sasuke and that's something he shouldn't know unless he kept an eye on Sasuke. Itachi simply sensed Sasuke first, it's not like Sasuke was trying to use stealth at the time. No one noticed when Jiraiya came, Jiraiya has great Stealthing ability that he got from spying on girl (flashback shows Jiraiya bragging about it with Hiruzen. Hiruzen asked to join him one day to see how good his stealth ability. Jiraiya saw thru this and called him a prevert for wanting to spy on the girls lol). Guy a Jounin has way better stealthing ability than Sasuke a Genin and Itachi wouldn't know if Guy would make it in time to counter Kisame. Itachi does not have sensory ability to tell how fast someone is going like Karin can do, he simply can tell when someone is nearby. This alone should convince you Itachi didn't know if Kakashi/Naruto would have been saved if he knew someone was close by.

If it was truly the after effects then kakashi wouldnt have said what he did. Regardless kakashi and sasuke should be dead by now then. Yet both are alive which leads me to believe he has always withhold from going further.

At the highlighted part. I completely agree. When itachi saw sasuke's curse mark he wasnt surprised at all and could be possible that he knew oro would come after sasuke. As for whether itachi knew of gai's presence the same way he knew of sasuke's but also naruto's (during the chase for sasuke) is up in air. What i dont know is whether he truly wouldve killed him (kakashi) after the capture

 

[Blaze Release]

He cannot. That's my point. It's an absolute. Regardless of the environment, of him having intel on Kisame, of him having for what we saw Doton and Katon affinity?!

From what we have seen from btoh abilities kisame can beat jiraiya. He pretty much has a counter for everything. I dont want to get into much detail here, but when i do create the thread might you see what i mean

 

[Gregjader]

Well do it bro. But as I said try not to be to partial. Go deep into it. Bring all that is necessary. May your thread be as Susanoo, coz if it is not....