Misconception; Jiraiya > Kisame and Jiraiya=/> Itachi

[Avani]

At the highlighted part, by who?. I read the Op's reply and he didnt come up with anything good therefore i didnt reply because i said in my original post that this will most likely be my last reply in that thread.

About the whole scenario, if you go back to that chapter, jiraiya looked directly into itachi's eyes (forgot to mention this). What is to say, he couldve used tsukuyomi that very moment and captured naruto. Instead of using it on sasuke.

Anyway the whole point of this thread was to state that just because a character has said something, shouldnt be brought into vs threads or taken absolute U_U

since you are so fond of copy paste here is another for you:

Blocked Jiraiya? I suggest you take a break from forum and go back to reading manga.

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It was Sasuke , the brat, who asked him to stop and rushed to Itachi himself only to be get beaten within seconds and then the Akatsuki duo was trapped in the belly of toad.

Kisame told Itachi not to use his eye this soon again :

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Naruto rushed forward and Kisame rushed after Naruto.

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Kisame along with Samehada were useless next second.

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I already showed Kisame didn't do anything besides scaring a kid Naruto.

Itachi used his Tsukoyomi and then Amaterasu and was tired. Even Kisame had warned him before about not using it twice on the same day. Unlike sage mode Sharingan is a costly tech and leads to blindness. You think he would be able to pull it off a third time without personal risk..That's an assumption with no back up from the manga.

You keep putting Itachi in Konoha to the Itachi as an edo equal. Naruto and Sasuke grew up in the time gap. Don't you think Itachi's capacities would also have been increased in that duration. He couldn't have been more than 16-18 at the time max.( He was ANBU captain at 13. Massacare took place and he had returned Konoha after three year. We don't know how long Itachi was captain before turning rogue). Jiraiya was already a veteron and sealed Amaterasu up. And Guy entered the scene soon after chasing Sasuke in his turn missing the duo by moments since they had run away.

Picking and chosing scene and dialogues according to ones convinience and rejecting if it doesn't suit them is not the way to analyse a character in a story.

Note: I am not stating any opinion on the VS battle in this or any other circumstances. The end result could go both ways- battles in Narutoverse depends on the circumstances on that particular moment and I let only Kishi have an opinion about it.

You keep posting same thing over and over and we will copy paste as well. Deal? now that's removing misconceptions alright.

 

[-Broly-]

I'm not saying Jiraiya would have won just that if he had the info Naruto and konoha had before going into battle then the fight would have gone differently. It was 1 Pain to 3 Pains to 6 Pains, I can see Jiraiya making a shadow clone to distract Pains bodies with long range attacks and hiding while Jiraiya go to Nagato, the bodys wouldn't know until either they catch the clone or until Jiraiya reach Nagato. Jiraiya was able to run and hide when he needed to, Naruto couldn't lol As for Itachi's illness, I agree but from what we seen in part 1 Itachi was tired out after 3 MS jutsus but used his MS more against Sasuke (I know he was also pushing himself to his limits in the fight), maybe his medicine allowed him to withstand his training? Not hard core training but enough to increase his chakra reserves or he got better medicine to allow him to fight better against Sasuke. Regardless if Itachi fight a full battle that pushes him to his limits then his sickness will kill him and using his MS jutsus cause further damage to him with his disease and is weaken more with each use. Itachi could had ment he would die from his disease+MS effects and Kisame dying from Jiraiya.

P.S don't you think if Jiraiya was in sage mode and Kisame absorbed his chakra with Samehada that either one or both of them would turn into stone like one of Pain's body? also Jiraiya can turn whoever he wants into a frog with the needed hand signs.

Do you know reason that people turn into stone when they absorb sage chakra

 

[Blaze Release]

I'm not saying Jiraiya would have won just that if he had the info Naruto and konoha had before going into battle then the fight would have gone differently. It was 1 Pain to 3 Pains to 6 Pains, I can see Jiraiya making a shadow clone to distract Pains bodies with long range attacks and hiding while Jiraiya go to Nagato, the bodys wouldn't know until either they catch the clone or until Jiraiya reach Nagato. Jiraiya was able to run and hide when he needed to, Naruto couldn't lol As for Itachi's illness, I agree but from what we seen in part 1 Itachi was tired out after 3 MS jutsus but used his MS more against Sasuke (I know he was also pushing himself to his limits in the fight), maybe his medicine allowed him to withstand his training? Not hard core training but enough to increase his chakra reserves or he got better medicine to allow him to fight better against Sasuke. Regardless if Itachi fight a full battle that pushes him to his limits then his sickness will kill him and using his MS jutsus cause further damage to him with his disease and is weaken more with each use. Itachi could had ment he would die from his disease+MS effects and Kisame dying from Jiraiya.

P.S don't you think if Jiraiya was in sage mode and Kisame absorbed his chakra with Samehada that either one or both of them would turn into stone like one of Pain's body? also Jiraiya can turn whoever he wants into a frog with the needed hand signs.

I agree it wouldve been a much difficult fight if jiraiya knew of peins weakness before the fight but that doesnt mean, he would win. Secondly if pein had used all 6 paths from the start instead of animal realm alone, jiraiya wouldve been defeated even before he thinks about getting into sm.

As for your strategy as to how jiraiya could keep the paths busy with shadow clones isnt working. Highly doubt shadow clones would keep the 6 paths busy O.O. As for itachi's illness we dont know for sure whether it was worse in part 1 or not, but due to his illness becoming worse as time goes by its fair to say he mightve been healthy in part 1, although i understand what you are saying.

As for your last paragraph again it depends of kisame would allow jiraiya into sm. If jiraiya does indeed go into sm, then kisame can also upgrade and fuse with samahada and in this mode, i dont think he needs to absorb chakra. I do however agree that if samahada was to absorb natural energy it should turn to stone

 

[TouchMyMangos]

I agree it wouldve been a much difficult fight if jiraiya knew of peins weakness before the fight but that doesnt mean, he would win. Secondly if pein had used all 6 paths from the start instead of animal realm alone, jiraiya wouldve been defeated even before he thinks about getting into sm.

As for your strategy as to how jiraiya could keep the paths busy with shadow clones isnt working. Highly doubt shadow clones would keep the 6 paths busy O.O. As for itachi's illness we dont know for sure whether it was worse in part 1 or not, but due to his illness becoming worse as time goes by its fair to say he mightve been healthy in part 1, although i understand what you are saying.

As for your last paragraph again it depends of kisame would allow jiraiya into sm. If jiraiya does indeed go into sm, then kisame can also upgrade and fuse with samahada and in this mode, i dont think he needs to absorb chakra. I do however agree that if samahada was to absorb natural energy it should turn to stone

The thing is you're only using info that suits your opinion which doesn't give your argument balance. Not just this quote but your argument as a whole. You want Kisame > Jiraiya; you need to be impartial in this situation and I'm afraid you haven't quite achieved that yet. With abit of practice maybe you could learn how to do that.......Chin up xd

 

[-Broly-]

I agree it wouldve been a much difficult fight if jiraiya knew of peins weakness before the fight but that doesnt mean, he would win. Secondly if pein had used all 6 paths from the start instead of animal realm alone, jiraiya wouldve been defeated even before he thinks about getting into sm.

As for your strategy as to how jiraiya could keep the paths busy with shadow clones isnt working. Highly doubt shadow clones would keep the 6 paths busy O.O. As for itachi's illness we dont know for sure whether it was worse in part 1 or not, but due to his illness becoming worse as time goes by its fair to say he mightve been healthy in part 1, although i understand what you are saying.

As for your last paragraph again it depends of kisame would allow jiraiya into sm. If jiraiya does indeed go into sm, then kisame can also upgrade and fuse with samahada and in this mode, i dont think he needs to absorb chakra. I do however agree that if samahada was to absorb natural energy it should turn to stone

you have to remember that itatchi probably gained more stamina but for the fight with sasuke he had stopped taking his medicine on purpose

 

[siyo]

This again?

Manga> you blaze.You can believe Ino can beat Sasuke for all I care, but it will never be canon.

 

[Blaze Release]

since you are so fond of copy paste here is another for you:



You keep posting same thing over and over and we will copy paste as well. Deal? now that's removing misconceptions alright.

*Sigh*, i do understand what you are saying. But thats the way i see it. The fact that itachi's main motive for coming to konoha was to tell danzo that he was still alive, but instead told kakashi that they were here for the 4th's legacy says it all. Could argue that to stop any assumptions made by kisame, he really did try to make it look like he was after naruto when he separated jiraiya from him. After all if they didnt and they fought jiraiya, do you believe kisame + itachi < jiraiya. If anything, it was a safe measure to protect jiraiya

Anyway lets not get off topic. I do however you get why i created the thread.

 

[Blaze Release]

This again?

Manga> you blaze.You can believe Ino can beat Sasuke for all I care, but it will never be canon.

Haha, you again? U_U
Anyway if thats what you believe then yes itachi + kisame + back up < Jiraiya . Going by what you say the manga supports this.

 

[SwapnilUchiha]

In the Ninja battles no one gives you guarantee about who will win. Itachi might be ahead of Jiraya in power and with his Mangekyu Sharingan. But Jiraya has a lot more experience than Itachi. And Itachi also mentally mature enough to get that. Thats why he is thinking Jiraya >= Itachi but when time came he stood up againts Jiraya ...!!!

 

[-Broly-]

Actually idk if samehada would turn to stone the reason people turn into stone is because they cant balance sage chalra with theirs since samehada doesnt have any chakra then it shouldnt transfprm to stone

 

[siyo]

Haha, you again? U_U
Anyway if thats what you believe then yes itachi + kisame + back up < Jiraiya . Going by what you say the manga supports this.

You should never doubt your master . It's called hype and even Kisame doubted whether or not Itachi could take him hence the word "might".

Honestly, bored of this topic.

 

[Blaze Release]

You should never doubt your master . It's called hype and even Kisame doubted whether or not Itachi could take him hence the word "might".

Honestly, bored of this topic.

Its called hype?. See where you contradict yourself.
If we were to go by the manga, then yes itachi + kisame + back up < jiraiya, yet in this case you go against what you and the manga says.

I like the way you called it hype because its in that same scene i believe that kisame admitted inferiority and itachi said at best he would draw or something along those lines. I do however agree, that im also bored of this topic and tbh ive moved on, until somebody revived the thread

 

[Avani]

*Sigh*, i do understand what you are saying. But thats the way i see it. The fact that itachi's main motive for coming to konoha was to tell danzo that he was still alive, but instead told kakashi that they were here for the 4th's legacy says it all. Could argue that to stop any assumptions made by kisame, he really did try to make it look like he was after naruto when he separated jiraiya from him. After all if they didnt and they fought jiraiya, do you believe kisame + itachi < jiraiya. If anything, it was a safe measure to protect jiraiya

Anyway lets not get off topic. I do however you get why i created the thread.

Itachi's reason to come to Konoha is irrelevant to your extremely flawed analysis and misreading the scenario in manga pages about Kisame.

Off topic? Please explain when my post was off topic? You tried to remove the "misconception " somehow and ignored the big gaps in your reasoning for that. You lost potential buyer for your theory right there itself.

 

[siyo]

Its called hype?. See where you contradict yourself.
If we were to go by the manga, then yes itachi + kisame + back up < jiraiya, yet in this case you go against what you and the manga says.

I like the way you called it hype because its in that same scene i believe that kisame admitted inferiority and itachi said at best he would draw or something along those lines. I do however agree, that im also bored of this topic and tbh ive moved on, until somebody revived the thread

How did I contradict myself?

Feats > Hype > speculation .What is so hard to understand about that? We know that Itachi had plans for Sasuke.Therefore logic dictates that he might have exaggerated since an all out war with jiraiya, who's abilities he respected/feared, would've resulted in him not being able to perform against Sasuke.Kisame had no such motive...

 

[silmarill]

this isnt even a debate , everyone just picks his favorite character and defends it even if it means defying all logic of the world

 

[xxSAGExx]

Do you know reason that people turn into stone when they absorb sage chakra

Yes, if they can't balance their chakra with the natural chakra. Samehada eats chakra and gives Kisame chakra so Samehada has chakra too, against Bee Samehada grew larger as it ate the 8 tails chakra.

you have to remember th
at itatchi probably gained more stamina but for the fight with sasuke he had stopped taking his medicine on purpose

Itachi medicine was only said to prolong his life but it does'nt cure him, Itachi went to his limits against Sasuke and died. You seem to forget his MS effects weakens him physically and waste a lot of chakra and his dieases worsens this.

Actually idk if samehada would turn to stone the reason people turn into stone is because they cant balance sage chalra with theirs since samehada doesnt have any chakra then it shouldnt transfprm to stone

Samehada is a chakra eating sword, it stores the chakra for later use or gave it to Kisame depending on what Kisame wanted. It does not know how to balance natural chakra.

*Sigh*, i do understand what you are saying. But thats the way i see it. The fact that itachi's main motive for coming to konoha was to tell danzo that he was still alive, but instead told kakashi that they were here for the 4th's legacy says it all. Could argue that to stop any assumptions made by kisame, he really did try to make it look like he was after naruto when he separated jiraiya from him. After all if they didnt and they fought jiraiya, do you believe kisame + itachi < jiraiya. If anything, it was a safe measure to protect jiraiya

Anyway lets not get off topic. I do however you get why i created the thread.

You made it sound like Itachi would say he was there to talk to Danzo, that was his secret mission and it was to tell Danzo to not touch Sasuke or he'll leak info to the other villages and to pay his repects to the 3rd Hokage for being the only one to try and make peace with the Uchihas before Itachi was ordered to kill them. As far as Itachi knew Jiraiya was just visiting the village, remember Jiraiya was relieved from duty and left the village. He doesn't owe Jiraiya anything, they were going to capture Naruto seeing how Kisame was going to cut of Naruto's legs but that didn't happen. We have to go by what was said at that time, if you say Itachi was lying at that point then we have to take everything Itachi said as a lie to, like only a true Uchiha can beat him and escape Tsukuyomi. That was said in part one but then new info was given in part 2, Bee said a perfect Jinchuuriki can break from any genjutsu. new info always beat old info since the new info have the old info along with some new ones.

 

[Blaze Release]

Itachi's reason to come to Konoha is irrelevant to your extremely flawed analysis and misreading the scenario in manga pages about Kisame.

You tried to remove the "misconception " somehow and ignored the big gaps in your reasoning for that. You lost potential buyer for your theory right there itself.

Its fair to say the way in which we both translate the scenario is different. Its true itachi's motive was different, whilst kisame's was bent on the fox. Regardless the point of this thread was to state that just because he said he would lose to jiraiya shouldnt be taken absolute

How did I contradict myself?

Feats< Hype< speculation .What is so hard to understand about that? We know that Itachi had plans for Sasuke.Therefore logic dictates that he might have exaggerated since an all out war with jiraiya, who's abilities he respected/feared, would've resulted in him not being able to perform against Sasuke.Kisame had no such motive...

I think you mean feats > hype > speculation.
You say manga > Blaze, yet in the manga it was said that kisame + itachi + back up < jiraiya, but in this instance you call it hype and not what they said in that same scene. To me hype is when one character praises another or has received great recognition.

Its true itachi had plans for sasuke. Its also true that after the releases its fair to say he said what he said, not because he particularly feared him, but because he had other reasons. kisame on the other hand was hyping him up, when the time came there was no such thing.

Anyway we clearly believe in different things so lets just put that aside. I DO However believe that until one character has fought another, only then can they truly admit something

 

[Blaze Release]

You made it sound like Itachi would say he was there to talk to Danzo, that was his secret mission and it was to tell Danzo to not touch Sasuke or he'll leak info to the other villages and to pay his repects to the 3rd Hokage for being the only one to try and make peace with the Uchihas before Itachi was ordered to kill them. As far as Itachi knew Jiraiya was just visiting the village, remember Jiraiya was relieved from duty and left the village. He doesn't owe Jiraiya anything, they were going to capture Naruto seeing how Kisame was going to cut of Naruto's legs but that didn't happen. We have to go by what was said at that time, if you say Itachi was lying at that point then we have to take everything Itachi said as a lie to, like only a true Uchiha can beat him and escape Tsukuyomi. That was said in part one but then new info was given in part 2, Bee said a perfect Jinchuuriki can break from any genjutsu. new info always beat old info since the new info have the old info along with some new ones.

I made it sound as if itachi was there to talk to danzo?, if i did then thats not how it was supposed to come out. How can you say he doesnt owe jiraiya anything when he at that time was the strongest recognisable ninja konoha had who was the protector of naruto. Imo he did all he could to deter a confrontation where it would be him + kisame against jiraiya. Seems like alot of people use the fact that he told kisame to apparently 'kill' kakashi, but also didnt stop kisame from trying to cut off naruto's leg, but forget that kakashi himself questioned why itachi didnt kill him with tsukuyomi.

The way itachi lived, but also current (although they are past now) events leads me to believe that majority of what he said/did was a lie in part 1. I do agree that new info beats old info and if thats the case why are we having this argument after all if new info beats old info, what we now know about itachi should beat what we thought about him in part 1

 

[kmrasengan]

o don't think u can use their confidence as an argument to say they are stronger than jiraya. itachi probably is, not sure about kisame, but they were ceonfident like that because they were two and even if jiraya wanted to atack itachi when he was using tsukuyomi on sasuke kisame would stop him that's why he took is time.

 

[Avani]

Its fair to say the way in which we both translate the scenario is different.

I am not translating it. I presented you exact pages. You are trying to unsee it. I'm only making my point clear that you yourself are bending a direct scene to something you want to believe in. And yet you go on dishing other people for the same thing.

Such threads dealing with imaginary scenario about what would/could/should have happnned cannot claim to have the final verdict and whole truth on one's side.