i see what your saying, but just because a person has more feats doesnt make them the winner. the 4th hokagae for example is a undeveloped character to us but he would beat alot of characters alive today for example.
Also being confident doesnt grant a win. Naruto was confident in every battle he fought in, i dont see the undefeated title in his hands.
And, i would still hold my ground that kisame would not beat jairya. Itachi on the other hand who is stronger than kisame could make a stalemate. Pain said himself that if jairya knew his secert he might have won. which against pain is a high praise. As it took bee, itachi and naruto to beat pain with full knowledge of his secrets. One thing which doesnt make sense was how was itachi able to see the hell king when only the person whos soul is being taken can see it.
Never said being confident grants you a win. Similarly giving praise doesnt grant the person who is being praised a win either. At the pein scenario i take that as praise and nothing more. Heck jiraiya can even know what nagato had for breakfast, that doesnt mean he would win with every info on nagato. At the highlighted part i know i everybody has their own opinion and its hella hard to change people's mind, buts ill try and then maybe youd see why i believe kisame would beat jiraiya, going by techniques shown so far
You can interpret the written words, sentences and the resultant action differently but when you claimed a scene where clearly Kisame didn't block Jiraiya even a single time and in fact was effectively rendered useless, you lost credibility-real fast. Not to forget that you were already pushing it when you were trying to convince everyone about Kisame's actions and words being at 180 degree based on your personal bias but no support in manga.
Kisame even asked Itachi why it was necessary for him to retreat. Kisame was not counting on himself but Itachi at that point.. Now the scene from here can be interpreted differently-one can believe that whatever Itachi's motives he was really not in a position to fight with Jiraiaya at that time or may believe that Itachi would have tried if he really wanted to take jiraiya on.
As for more back up and result being the same-That part is iffy. I sense something was lost in translation but that's my interpretation and opinion . (if you get my drift)
Now, different people may feel differetly about it. The best option in such scenario is agree to disagree and move on to another section of manga because there is really no correct side. Only Kishi can confirm what he had in his mind- if he wishes to ever. As far as I am concerned it doesn't even matter. I already believe that Itachi was a good shinobi and not a traitor. I don't need further evidence to jutsify him.
First of all, i blame the anime xd. In part 1 i just went by the anime and didnt even know about manga. Its in the anime that kisame blocked jiraiya, but in the manga that never happened. I have realised a long time ago that the anime adds loads of nonsense for whatever reasons that catches even me off guard. I shouldve looked at the manga before i said that
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At the highlighted part, i doubt its a mistranslation, but there are loads of things just not right about the whole scene from konoha to itachi and kisame fleeing that has made not only me but several people suspicious especially after seeing what kisame and itachi can do. Even the idea of itachi + kisame < jiraiya doesnt sound right, but then its itachi who said that then immediately said even with back up the result wouldnt change.
Ppl won't listen they are sturbborn, but i place them around the same tier minato=itachi w/ jiraiya a little below, all mid-high kage
Always good to try. I will however create why i believe kisame > jiraiya. Whether people agree or not. Im pretty sure those who cannot come up with a reasonable counter would just resort to what kisame said in part 1 again *sigh*
This. BTW, Blaze, this is essentially what you've done. You may seem to be unbias but all of your comments are your interpretations on the scenes and you need to say so. You are just assuming based on what you want to hear.
My interpretations?, perhaps but after finding out alot more in part two, the new info we have on part 2 allows me to interpret what i believe in more detail. Tbh, a lot of people wouldnt believe me, but ive always had my suspicion about itachi, from the very start and ive always been sceptical about not only the whole scene but his actions. Believe me when i say i wasnt surprised when we found out he was actually a good person
People will never listen to what they don't agree with. What's worse though, is when someone makes a thread that is one-sided and tries to give off a certain point of view without simply stating that that is their opinion. This thread took a lot of effort but fails in the fairness to all area.
I do agree that on nb is very hard to change people mind. Also know that in many vs threads to come people would quote the same thing in part 1 and not look at cases, feats and abilities. Shame really, still intend on creating the kisame > jiraiya thread
sorry, but that's just a poor argument and not up to your usual standards at all.
you based a hefty bit of your argument on the fact that itachi and kisame were not crapping their pants at the sight of jiraiya when they used nothing but respect when talking about him to each other.
first off, you contradicted yourself with the oonoki part. a person can show someone respect, like oonoki did, and believe they are out of their league, but still challenge them, even though they have little hope of succeeding. like kakashi did with orochimaru.
secondly, Orochimaru respected Hiruzen and recognised him as a superior opponent, as evidenced by his words to anko, to hiruzen, and the fact that he summoned two kage to help him out in the fight. That he mocked Hiruzen means absolutely nothing, villians are always cocky and arrogant.
which brings me to my main point. Why do you expect that Itachi, who faced Kirin and Chibaku tensei without batting an eyelid, would cower in fear at the sight of Jiraiya? It's just not going to happen. Even if he does regognise Jiraiya as a superior opponent, which I think he does, he is not going to show any emotion or fear. He turned his back to Jiraiya because Jiraiya allowed ~Sasuke to try and defeat Itachi. And because he had no intention of fighting Jiraiya in the first place, which is why he used Tsukuyomi so freely. But just because he never meant to fight, does not mean that his praise of Jiraiya is invalid.
Kisame, when has he ever shown any fear? He's probably the most proud and cocky Akatsuki, the only person who he shows great respect to is Itachi. He's made fun of Tobi, Deidara, the zombie bros, Gai,Asuma, Bee and everyone else he's met. It's his nature to make fun of his opponents. and again, there's no shinobi of that level who would run away like a chicken at the sight of a better opponent, except for Kabuto.
edit: while we're talking about confidence, Jiraiya was more than confident about taking on Itachi and Kisame at once. should we infer from that that Jiraiya>Kisame+Itachi?
Just like how ive based my argument on the fact that neither one were crapping in their pants, alot of people have also based their argument on what has been said in part 1 and this was the true purpose of the thread. Not necessarily to debate the scenario but what characters say to each other shouldnt be taken too seriously atleast not when they havent fought yet. The manga has always either hyped up a character or has allowed another character to do this, but shouldn't be translated as cahracter A says character B is very strong or could beat him, therefore character B > character A.
I do agree that a person can challenge another and still believe they are out of their league, but this applies both ways. Just like how when the scenario came, neither kisame and itachi were nerves, similarly when both have left did jiraiya also somewhat praise them, itach to be specific. Itachi turned his back because he has confidence in either his own abilities or that of kisame. Also kisame might be proud but he is also respectful of his opponents also he doesnt have much respect for gai. Has nothing to do with gai's abilities, but becaue he isnt a well known ninja. Similarly kisame somewhat praises kakashi who is well known and kakashi i believe is inferior in abilities to gai. Also i believe the most cocky akatsuki is diedora and not kisame, thats should be clear U_U.
At your final sentence. Granted jiraiya was also confident when the time came, but after they left, did he somewhat praise both. I guess the moral of the story is characters praises each other and thats about it.
