Madara's realism vs. Naruto's idealism

[spckoroma]

to fix a problem the easy way out like madara never works. its like putting a band aid on a stab to the heart. madara is taking the easy way out so it's going to end up failing. Naruto is trying the hard way his way will work better in the end.

 

[Wabbit]

Tobirama said that Madara isn't the one who should control the dream. Dream and reality are terms defined by human beings. On Jman's answer he just passed down his 'will', Naruto is the one who has to find the answer.

if you want answer for hatred then Madara has answer.."The selfish desire of wanting to maintain peace causes wars and hatred is born to protect love."
Jiraiya said ppl will understand each other one day.Naruto has to make ppl understand each other to end the hatred..Naruto and Nagato both understood each other ending the hatred between them..Narutos TNJ is all about understanding each other..even it was kyuubi or Obito..but idk how he will sutain it and not end up like Hashiramas system

 

[The Sach]

yes i see your point too.

my answer would be to simply endure and never give up in your way of achieving peace....that way you can pass your ideals to the next generation,next generation of children get raised better through your way of teaching them the best way of achieving true peace through understanding and love and forgiveness...and that way the new generations will continue your path and with each generation the probability of there being a new madara will lessen....the point is to never give up and stick with your path


i believe true peace can be achieved....it`s utopia at best but i still believe it can be done

Yah but Hashi's idea of peace was similar to that and we all know what happened to Konoha, and that's why I want Kishi to give Naruto some nice answer which will make him different from from his predecessors, rather a better version of it. Understanding each other isn't the best way to achieve peace actually because just like I said hatred is part of human nature too, I want to know how Naruto finds answer to it.

i think that naruto answer will related to bijuu and daimyo

Daimyo, seriously what they actually did throughout the manga to call them even notable people.
Bijuus yes, he will found an answer to that hatred, but what about shinobi peace?

The most realistic actual solution would be just trying your best (at whatever you like/want the most) in this corrupt, dangerous world while accepting its realities since "true" peace will never happen as long as humans remain humans. But for the sake of interesting story/at least some sort of conflict we must have a protagonist and an antagonist with extreme, radical views on what to do with the world.

Ya, but that's what makes Naruto different for me, an if author wants to have such a great issue as theme of his manga, if he must give some result or rather present the things as they are.

Both of them are idealist. I mean Madara wants to create a Dreamland,hardly realism don't you think? I like Tobirama's strategy when it comes to ninja world which is kind of combination of Madara's and Hashirama's. I think Sasuke is like that too.

Madara is more realistic because creating a dream world is possible in NV(even if it is impossible in human world), unlike creating an understanding in the people who killed each other from generations, it is actually part of their nature.Tobirama actually took few stern decisions to develop Konoha, I don't consider him having 'peace ideology'.

I don't support either of them.

Madara essentially wants to take people's free-will away in this "dream world"

Naruto is naive enough to think hatred as a whole can be removed and if he does "remove it" that's also taking free-will away

Just like I said hatred is part of human/shinobi nature, at least Madara is trying something which is possible, Naruto never explains us, what he is going to do.

I thought Naruto's idealism was to endure hatred and break the cycle of vengence. When Kakashi said he found someone to believe in, Obito asked if such a light existed and how difficult the task would be. Naruto basically affects everyone he enounters, and right now he's had the main stage for a large part of the war.

I think the OP is looking too hard into it. Peace it self is unrealistic but its an ideal to hold on to and something the ninja world lost.

He affected everyone, but if Sasuke returns to village tomorrow, will someone like Raikage accept him?
I amnot looking too hard into it, rather I want this manga to have good conclusion on philosophical point of view, because at the end I am Naruto fan, and want Naruto to be portrayed as protagonist on psychological front too.

 

[KingHashirama]

After reading the OP I'm starting to doubt you understand what realism and idealism are...

REalists can also be idealists. In fact they are.

Hashirama and Naruto realize that "peace" cannot be forced. Madara believes in his ideal of controlling everyone and causing "peace".. But its not peace. Its manipulation.

Those "idealists" of Naruto-verse, are one of the most realist people in the series. Hashirama/Naruto/Rikduou, all accepted the fact that the world isn't perfect, instead of trying to dictate over it . They took baby steps to uniting it.

Sadly, the characters who fans like to call "realists" are the most "idealist" people in the show. Trying to go for something that isn't possible. Such as the Tsukuyomi plan, or what Danzo was trying to do..

 

[Ovan]

Dreaming is always the first step to creating greatness. Madara had a dream and he is only a few feet away. If we was watching part 1 Naruto and someone said that Madara would come back and set the world into a big genjutsu, we would chuckle at the idea because we had no proof of it ever going to happen. Anything can happen if you set your mind to it. Maybe the original will die but there will always have someone pick up where that person left it and continue it. Lifetime after lifetime, someone will add onto it till the goal is finally reached.

 

[KingHashirama]

Also, why did you not post the very panel nex to the one you posted.. where Tobirama spits in Madara's face and disagrees with him?

 

[RasenUchihaChaos]

Manga Fact Pain and Madara ideals beat naruto's ideals

also he didnt spit in his face he tried but susanoo stopped the spit

 

[spckoroma]

Manga Fact Pain and Madara ideals beat naruto's ideals

real mmmmmm then wheres pain? yeap just proved you wrong. they are taking the easy way out. it will always fail in the end.

 

[Bronze]

Madara lived a over a century watching war, blood and death. He read the scripts of tablets showing how peace can be obtained.

Naruto is 17 years old. He is too young and naive to be trusted with peace.

So I am going with Madara since its more realistic and true.

 

[spckoroma]

Madara lived a over a century watching war, blood and death. He read the scripts of tablets showing how peace can be obtained.

Naruto is 17 years old. He is too young and naive to be trusted with peace.

So I am going with Madara since its more realistic and true.

no where near realistic or true. that like letting the devil rule the world. take free choice from everyone and make the obey you with out question is not peace at all. its hell and for someone to say that is close to peace is a fool

 

[RasenUchihaChaos]

real mmmmmm then wheres pain? yeap just proved you wrong. they are taking the easy way out. it will always fail in the end.

easy way theire way required hard work and years of planning naruto with kishi help shouted words anyone can shout words

pain lost cause kishi made him lose u saw him stomp naruto then comes hinata the love moment then pain kills her and kurama takes over doing all the fighting

 

[GOD2U]

Naruto will come up with the solution to give everybody a trophy for trying instead of who wins like modern day sports do for kids. Then there will b no butthurt losers to tryto start war.

 

[spckoroma]

easy way theire way required hard work and years of planning naruto with kishi help shouted words anyone can shout words

pain lost cause kishi made him lose u saw him stomp naruto then comes hinata the love moment then pain kills her and kurama takes over doing all the fighting

you forget that Naruto showed pain another way. and its an easy way out when you use force to get your way. that's like robbing a bank or holding people for money. force never solves anything.

 

[shelke]

There is no such thing as "Ever-Lasting" and "True" Peace. Peace is transitory and fleeting. One finds moments of peace and that's it, whether it's on national or personal level. Greed, corruption, War, hatred - all these are a part of human nature. Naruto will build peace now and when he dies. then what? It'll be the same old tale a few decades into the future.

True Peace can only be attained - or some semblance of it - one ALL National boundaries, Religious, Racial, Political, Cultural differences are eliminated. As long as these differences exist, people will find a reason to quarrel. It's 'Differences' on all fronts or any front that breed hatred. So in Naruto's context, the Hidden Villages would need to be eliminated for personal autonomy of the people and Countries Equality.

Is Naruto accomplishing this? No. True peace is just a dream. So as much as Madara's ideal, that is backed by some very realistic diagnostic of the world, may seem unrealistic, it's the most realistic of all, as ever-lasting dream is just that, A Dream. What Madara is doing is a Paradox of turning Dream into Reality or Real Dream. Some pretty good philosophical penning from Kishimoto, if only it wasn't plagued by poor characterization from Majority of characters.

Most of you just don't understand how ridiculous the notion of True or Eternal Peace is. It isn't even a stuff of fairy-tales.

 

[PIOLO]

even this dream world or what we called infinite tsukiyomi was enough for the likes of naruto and sakura in naruto movie 6 road to ninja, and take note that the director of movie 6 was the creator of the series/manga, kishimoto himself, so MADARA REALM>NARUTO'S IDEALISM

 

[bibspark]

*Madara has the point .. all know That , but He found out that solution, When People fought against each other , for Land, Power, money, etc.. In that case , Madara's Ideal is perfect ....

* BUT In actual NarutoWerse, People are unite , The example "shinobi's Alliance ".. and The reason for it's union isn't about Land, or Power or Money, but For Protection and Peace, ...

I believe Naruto's answer is already shown , ""As long as people are unite , there will be no Wars,""

you on point dude... the people are working towards a single goal and with that it's going to create an understanding of one another. This war is in the process of creating peace, minus the genjutsu.
Who knows, Madara has been planning this all along to actually gather the shinobi alliance together and unite as one opposed to I don't know how but I'll bring peace by being a Hogake

 

[salamander uchiha]

Define the word realism.

to someone who has an absolute faith in himself and his way of achieving peace as naruto,his way is realistic.

to someone who lost faith in reality and perceives the reality differently like madara,his way is realistic

my point is....what an indivdual mind perceives as realistic,then that is realistic for him.

you cannot simply say sth is/isnt realistic.

everyone has a different perspective and view on reality.what you believe in is true to you and what i believe in is true to me.

there is no absolute truth....there is only what we believe in.and if we believe in it enough then it can come true.

naruto`s way is much much harder...but with enough faith and hard work it can be achieved.

nothing is impossible

Naruto has doubted hisself many a times his faith isnt absooute he gets shaken and cant provide answers. He is idealistic and big mouthed.

 

[-Punk-]

Madara realism > Naruto no matter how you look at it , he is not wrong about what he is saying , the guys has knowledge , something Naruto hasn't , the only problem with Madara is that he is trying to force people & wants to control/force them into his beliefs , but is the same shit Naruto is doing with shoving his sad speeches to everyone's throat , if you think about it , Naruto is casting his own genjutsu to people too .

There no such thing as peace in the Narutoverse , it's a cycle that will keep repeating over & over , Sauske is not wrong either , the system needs to be change , Naruto has to realize a lot of things & learn more from the world itself & not his own bubble .

+ this war already united countries & Naruto had nothing to do with it .

 

[~Sky~]

Stupid.

Madara wants to destroy the world and people on here actually think his way is better than Naruto's, when all Naruto wants to do is live peacefully with everyone.

No, Madara's way is the cowards way out life.

+ this war already united countries & Naruto had nothing to do with it .

That's an idiotic statement Punk. They would all be dead and gone if it weren't for Naruto.

 

[Anorien16]

How can Madara and realism be used in the same sentence? That guy wants people to forget the reality and turn to illusion. Much like a turns to to drugs to 'face' his problems ..... Get real. If Madara's realism be true then the best way to bring peace in our world is by forcing every human to take something that would get them permanently high.