Madara vs. Jiraiya
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Brother Numpsay
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I wasn't here to argue for Bogards point. But you asked for a link that specifically happen in the manga, while he is offline. I simply gave it to you for him.
UchihaGodMadara
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KingHashirama
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Ems Madara dominates mid-diff at the hardest..
- The guy was superior to Tobirama, who is on another level compared to the Sanin chumps.
- His feats alone in the war arc as a edo tensei are good.
- The guy was superior to Tobirama, who is on another level compared to the Sanin chumps.
- His feats alone in the war arc as a edo tensei are good.
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KidGamer65
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Madara would spank Jiraiya if I gave him a Full Bodied V3 Susanoo and up. Speed and strength to leap extremely high/far distances in a second. Eyes that can track people as fast as Juubito and a Susanoo that strikes extremely fast? Susanoo the size of a Bijuu? The moment Madara made it CQC, he'd cleave Jiraiya in half. He'd tank Rasengan, he'd evade Yomi Numa, he'd tank any of the Toad Sages attacks. He'd cleave any Toad in half too.
5 sources of sensing doesn't protect from Genjutsu. Sensing period doesn't protect from Genjutsu, unless you are skilled enough to fight with your eyes closed.
Easier said than done. When Madara gets right in their face, and even uses Katon as a distraction
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,
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or
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[/URL][/URL] along with his extremely fast Shunshin, landing Genjutsu is going to be simple, and once he does, Jiraiya gets shaken off, assuming he's even on the one that Jiraiya decides to summon. Then he'll have to know that the summon has been caught in Genjutsu and he'd have to touch it and make the Genjutsu Kai and hand signs...all before it shakes him off.....not happening.Frog Kata is only a general fighting style, Jiraiya doesn't have ghost punches otherwise Pain would have been hit by them when they fought, instead Animal Path was catching his punches with one hand. Lol. Dust Cloud to blind Sharingan is useless when Madara can blow it away with the Gunbai, or when he can use a large Katon to ignite the Dust Cloud, as soon as he steers clear of it of course. What are the Toad Sages going to do for him in the Taijutsu front? Madara would clown Jiraiya in CQC.
-Superior speed, far superior speed. (Almost blitzed SM Naruto, if he uses Shunshin while in close range of Jiraiya, dude gets done worse since he's not faster than Naruto)
-Far superior reactions.
-Better Taijutsu feats in general.
-Strength and durability to block V1 Ay's punch, the same punch even KCM Naruto said was extremely heavy. And KCM Naruto is more durable than SM Naruto.
-Smashed Myojinmon with physical power when he was revived.
-EMS precog.
-A weapon in the form of the Gunbai, which is durable enough to tank Rasengan from KCM Naruto on it's own, even w/o Uchiha Gaeshi's reflective power.
Madara knocked SM Naruto on his ass, and SM Naruto was overpowering Deva, while Jiraiya was getting his punches caught by Human Path. Lol
Lol. Juubi Sized Katon>Toad Oil Flame Bomb. Being enhanced by wind and oil doesn't matter if it's still weaker afterwards. Or the Gunbai blocks and absorbs the parts that hit him. Then there's the fact we can multiple Madara's using the same Juubi Sized Katon.
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That's not Juubi Sized.
This is.
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Let alone more than one, coming from more than one direction, since Jiraiya can't match it since only Bunta has feats of using oil, and there is only one Bunta...well, there's one of the Toad Sages I think, but they face the same direction Jiraiya faces, so it doesn't matter. And there's only one Jiraiya.
Also, if the Fuuton is insignificant in size compared to the Toad Oil Flame Bullet, it'll do little to nothing. Just like if a blow on a forest fire....nothing's gonna happen.
Sure, Jiraiya can make Shadow Clones.....but they lack Ma and Pa so they won't retain Sage Mode long, and Madara's clones would just obliterate them since Jiraiya's Ninjutsu w/o Ma and Pa or some toad helping him pales in comparison to Madara's large Katon, and his Gunbai which can pretty much redirect most offensive attacks, and Madara has much more chakra than Jiraiya. Not even funny how big the gap is.
Yomi Numa is easily predicted with Sharingan and evaded by sheer speed. Jiraiya may win, and he may win easily, but you are gonna have to do better than that.
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Madara uses Genjutsu on either/both Fakasaku or Shima which results in total disruption of the energy balance needed to maintain Sennin modo: Either Jiraiya becomes a toad or loses SM. Madara slaughters him after that.
Conspirator.
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Naw, Genjutsu has to make Direct Eye to eye contact. That means Madara not only has o be looking at the eyes, but the oponent has to also look into his eyes at the same time. That is how "Direct Eye to eye contact" works. And both ages would know not to look ever into his eyes, they can look at his nose, ears, forehead, neck, mouth, but never his eyes. Allot of ppl do not know how Sharingan genjutsu works even though the manga displayed it 1000 times. lol
Side note: what up though! You and Varrah been in the shadows as usual. smh
Direct eye contact isn't an impossibility when CQC will be a key point of this matchup. With the sharingan's level of insight Madara can easily force himself into their line of sight since he's already knowledgeable of the fact that they'll be trying to avoid it. Keeping their eyes closed would only leave them vulnerable.
I've been good ;p NB got lame so I occupied myself with other things. Varrah's caught up with University I would believe.
I've been good ;p NB got lame so I occupied myself with other things. Varrah's caught up with University I would believe.
Yea I feel you, It's the same shit we've been talking about all over again. I entertain some things when I'm bored or have spare time to waste. The DB is the only reason the site is still kicking for me at least, once its all the way revealed I'll most likely take a permanent leave of absence.
That's true, I honestly just didn't think about legged Susanoo for some reason. With a V2 Susanoo and up Madara wins.
Bold isn't true. Jiraiya can still fight with his eyes open but just not look into Itachi's eyes. Gai developed a style for fighting by looking at the feet, what's to say Jiraiya can't accurately fight without making eye contact when he has sensing abilities to compensate for a more limited field of vision?
Ma or Pa snap him out instantly anyway so genjutsu doesn't even matter against Jiraiya.
How is using katon do anything except break eye contact between them? Jiraiya counters with his own katon, and there are no feats that I'm aware of regarding Madara using shunshin while using a massive katon, so at best it just stalemates with Jiraiya's katon. If Madara uses smaller scale katons then Jiraiya matches them with his own senjutsu enhanced fireball.
The moment a toad gets cast under a genjutsu Jiraiya senses
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and breaks them out.Jiraiya's
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implies that using the sign for genjutsu kai isn't necessary since he doesn't mention it. He only says that
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and disrupting their chakra flow. Even so, a frog isn't throwing him off if Jiraiya can just focus chakra to his feet (which would get a senjutsu boost and making the chakra on his feet very effective at sticking to the toad's head.) Other toads aren't needed but Jiraiya can make shadow clones to break other toads out of genjutsu if he summons them.
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That isn't normal human movement.
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Jiraiya knocked back a boss summon with his sheer strength unless you think it was something else that repelled it.
Several solid hits on Madara and he's finished. Not sure why you're bringing up Human path blocking Jiraiya's punch because Deva blocked Naruto's kick and took no significant damage (even if he was knocked back and couldn't react to Naruto's next attack, he wasn't hurt.) Who's to say that was Jiraiya strongest punch? Ma and Pa are helping in this battle - as demonstrated by
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he has the potential to kill Madara with several well-placed punches if he hits him, and Madara can't deal with three SM users at once in CQC when they all can deal serious damage to him with just one hit. Jiraiya can exchange blows with Madara and take his attacks to a degree whereas Madara can't. Remember Jiraiya went through senjutsu training for years so he can lift large stone statues also.Still don't understand how Madara did that...being blind and having no sensing yet he still managed to fight without senses. But he didn't blitz him, Naruto blocked his attack and was only pushed back because he was overpowered by Madara's physical strength. If Naruto wasn't knocked back by Madara's first hit, then he should have been able to counterattack and engage in close combat. If Madara does the same to Jiraiya and he gets knocked back, when Madara follows through for the kill shot Jiraiya can react.
Only thing I agree with is the dust cloud being rather useless.
And how is TOFB any weaker? More oil means more firepower to fuel the flames. Jiraiya's senjutsu katon with Ma also using katon > his base katon. Doubt Pa's fuuton is useless, definitely can't be compared to blowing on a forest fire when you can see how it enhanced Goemon. What feats do Madara's shadow clones have that let them use Juubi size katons? Lol. katons coming from mulitple directions is a moot point when Jiraiya has shadow clones and Shima who can use katon to counter Madara's katons.
No both katons are relatively the same size. Gamabunta is bijuu sized as witnessed VS Shukaku and seeing how it
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you can tell the size of the katon is about the same as that version of the juubi compared to Madara's katon. You can see the difference between the Gedo Mazo and the juubi if you reference the rock sandwich.
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Juubi is several times larger but still small enough to where it was immobilized by Kitsuchi's jutsu. Gedo Mazou is bijuu sized [
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][
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]. Therefore Gedo Mazou is about the same size as Gamabunta so you can see how big Bunta is in relation to the juubi by comparing them to the size of rock sandwich. Since Juubi is only several times bigger and TOFB is much, much bigger than Gamabunta, TOFB is at least the same size as Madara's katon. At worst, they stalemate each other. Never said Jiraiya would be using this katon offensively (only to defend against Madara's katon) so it doesn't matter if Gunbai can protect Madara.Not seeing why EMS Madara's shadow clones are being given the ability to use juubi size katons. Shadow clones can literally be matched with boss toads here.
Lol you wrote all that only to end up agreeing that Jiraiya wins?
KidGamer65
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Except....Gai isn't Jiraiya, nor did Jiraiya do what Gai has done. Gai, who has developed a fighting style made for countering Sharingan=/=Jiraiya, who hasn't.
Though I don't think Genjutsu will be a major factor anyway.
Just wanted to point that out, though it's not useless. In the time it takes for him to be broken out, Madara can land a decisive blow.
It makes him look directly at the Katon, and then when Madara reappears right in front of him, he'll be looking straight ahead. I already posted scans of the same exact thing happening with Itachi's crows. They caused Sasuke to look ahead, and then he got careless and looked right into Itachi's eyes when the latter Shunshin'd in front of him.
Lol....what? Who said he'd move while using Katon? Again, I posted scans. That's what he'll do. Shunshin after firing the Katon...also, stalemates? If he attacked Jiraiya with a massive Katon, he'd kill him if the latter tried to stalemate.
Though I was talking about the toads, not Jiraiya. So this isn't even really relevant to my main point.
Not before they shake him off.
Jiraiya would have literally no reason to focus chakra to his toads feet unless he knows that they are in Genjutsu, cause he wouldn't be expecting them to toss him off.
Your point? Not sure what is abnormal about this movement.
Yeah, Naruto was tossing Rinnegan summons around too.
The point is Deva blocked it, but was physically overpowered. Also, he did take some damage. He was hit, cracked a rock,
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. I don't think that any path of pain has ever physically blocked/caught Naruto's kicks/punches. Same thing here too. [
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] Even if the damage was minor (which isn't the point) Deva couldn't block Naruto's hits the same way that Human did to Jiraiya. Lol, no reason to believe that Jiraiya was pulling punches against the Akatsuki Leader, and that's lifting strength, not striking strength. The two aren't equal or anywhere near each other Fukasaku isn't physically superior to Sage Naruto, and Naruto's striking strength is FAR inferior to that of Ay's, who Madara (as an edo) blocked with zero effort, even though KCM Naruto found his punches to be heavy. Fukasaku's hits aren't doing anything to Madara, at all. Not to mention Jiraiya will have to literally be an inch away from him if Fukasaku wants to reach, maybe even less. Same goes for Jiraiya, and Shima. Their punches aren't doing anything significant if Madara blocks with his arm, let alone his Gunbai.And why would he have to deal with 3 SM users in CQC when 2 of them lack the reach to even hit him? And again, if Jiraiya's punches could deal serious damage, they wouldn't have caught them.
Madara can sense chakra.
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.That's why I said "almost" blitzed. Yeah, if Naruto wasn't knocked back he should have been able to counter attack and engage in close combat, but he wasn't, and Naruto>>Jiraiya, so the same exact thing happens to Jiraiya, and sure, he'll be able to react, but if Madara unleashes a giant Katon on him right afterwards, you can forget about him blocking or evading it, and he's not tanking it.
It's smaller, that's why. Oil powering a weak (in comparison) flame isn't necessarily going to put it on the level of Madara's flame. It enhanced Goemon because all 3 attacks were equal in size. Oil, flame, and wind. So I can compare it to blowing a
Clones split chakra evenly. Unless you believe that Madara w/ a third or fourth of his chakra can't use a simple Katon, despite 25 of his clones being able to use Susanoo, his clones can use his Juubi Size Katon. Gonna need to see some evidence that he can't, cause there's evidence that he can.
Lol. Shima and Jiraiya's Katon are completely useless when Juubi Sized Katon>>>>Any Katon that Jiraiya produces w/o the help of Gamabunta. Unless a Wind+Katon=Toad Oil Flame Bomb, which it won't going by feats, you have no point here. They get overpowered and Jiraiya's clones get raped. Not to mention there's only one Shima, so she can only buff one clone's Katon. And then there's the fact that Shima is merged with Jiraiya, so she faces forward on his shoulder, if Jiraiya is combating the main Madara's Katon, how in the world will she help clones? Cause she can't face multiple directions at once, nor can she leave Jiraiya's shoulder.
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That's a Bijuu compared to the Juubi's head.
The same head (Larger than a Bijuu) compared to Madara's Katon.
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Then Bunta compared to his Katon.
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The size difference is clear.
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Look at the Juubi's head. The Juubi's head is larger than BM Killer B, so that's how large Bunta is in relation to the Gedo Mazo.
1. Already explained it. If 25 Mokuton clones can use Susanoo. Even w/o the Hashirama DNA buff. 3-4 clones can use a simple Katon. If Madara can fight for 24 hours, he can use Katon with his clones. Unless you think one Katon consumes over a fourth of his chakra, he can use it with his clones. There's nothing special about the jutsu that'd stop Madara from using it with his clones.
2. Lol, no, they can't. Even w/o Juubi Sized Katon, clones would shit on Boss Toads like Gamahiro and Gamaken. Speed and skill to evade all their attacks (Deva was
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around
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of them) Katon like
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would still deal massive damage, and any Ninjutsu they may use get reflected with Gaeshi.I said "may" as in he might be able to win if you convince me he can win...I still think Madara wins, definitely in fact.
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KidGamer65
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Do you have any kind of evidence that'd make Edo Madara more durable than EMS Madara? Cause I have evidence that it's the exact opposite. Madara was caught in Myojinmon and then he smashed it when he was revived, meaning Edo Madara is physically inferior to EMS Madara.
Never gave Edo Madara's Chakra feats to EMS Madara. I said that if Edo Madara (w/ boost from Hashi's cells) can make 25 clones and still use something as chakra intensive as Susanoo, even without the boost he can use a simple Katon with 3 clones.
i think Madara wins but I have a question: If RT Madara has Rikudo's chakra stored in his body wouldn't his speed be also upgraded by it when he blitzed SM Naruto? Or is the chakra he has minuscule to make any difference?
KidGamer65
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His Susanoo had no noticeable increase in power, so I doubt that his physical power got a boost.