[Theory] Madara Twist

dwilson81

Leaf Village Regular 🍃
Regular
Joined
Aug 3, 2010
Messages
661
Reaction score
12
The Third made Hokage while the 2nd was still alive kind of the second was going to die, to to save all of them with him, and he told Hiruzen to start tommorow because of that
You're assuming that the 2nd died then...I don't want to dig through the text right now but I distinctly remember a scene where the first and 2nd were standing with Hiruzen anointing him Hokage. It actually may have been a flashback Hiruzen had during his battle with Orochimaru but I can't be sure.
 

dwilson81

Leaf Village Regular 🍃
Regular
Joined
Aug 3, 2010
Messages
661
Reaction score
12
intresting theory,hey guys u might remember kabuto telling 2 tobi dat he knew tobi's secret,he showed a body using impure world resurrection which was madara's body as it caused an excitement in tobi and he followed up his excitement with the words 'u knw' or something like that...if u hav doubt check d manga..he might have transfered his soul to obito's body or shisui's
Again....if the soul isn't in the pure world then the impure world resurrection won't work. So if Madara transferred his soul into Obito or someone else then Kabuto couldn't resurrect him. Also...again...the Jutsu doesn't rely on having the body to work...any "body" will work...the key ingredients are an amount of the targets DNA and an unbound/uncursed soul...so why would Kabuto show Madara his body...and why would Madara care? What Kabuto showed Madara seemed to be some sort of Ace up the sleeve sort of deal and Madara's body wouldn't hold any sway over Madara...in fact it would be completely useless.
 
Last edited:

dwilson81

Leaf Village Regular 🍃
Regular
Joined
Aug 3, 2010
Messages
661
Reaction score
12
Great post...enjoyed the citations. I have a few questions though. Why are we assuming that Madara created Zetsu? I'm not saying it isn't possible or even probable but I don't see it as fact. As far as I can tell, we only know that Madara used the Bijuu chakra to clone White Zetsu. We don't even know if Bijuu chakra is required to create Zetsu or if it's just required to create that many clones. I like your theory I just think your train of thought has a few holes that need filling.

Also I wanted to point out that we do get to see when and sort of how Madara regenerates his arm. Chapter 486 page 5 shows Madara flexing his new digits in front of what looks like the same structure where he showed Kabuto the Hashi clone. I think...and of course its just a theory...that he used the same tech which cloned the 1st to clone his arm and then used some crazy Jutsu or medical tech to reattach it. Nothing blatantly inhuman about it really.

As far as his age...like I pointed out earlier he is likely somewhere between 90 and 110...pretty old but not immortal...some sort of longevity Jutsu??? Or a fushion with clone material like how he might have regenerated his arm. If you remember back during the Pain arc, Madara was angry that Pain used his power to restore Konaha. Madara said that power was supposed to be saved for him, which leads me to believe that Madara isn't immortal at all...Zetsu or not...otherwise why would he want Pain's Jutsu?
 

dwilson81

Leaf Village Regular 🍃
Regular
Joined
Aug 3, 2010
Messages
661
Reaction score
12
Another question and clarification...

In my last post most of my arguments were directed at the Zetsu creation theory that you cited...when I re'read your post I realized this so my apologies.

Anyway on to my next discussion point. I noticed that you question Zetsu's ability to copy Kekkai Genkai. I don't know that you are completely on point with this. It isn't said one way or the other in the manga but it certianly isn't ruled out. What is mention is that it would be useless even if he could...Black Zetsu strait up calls him a vagina. White Zetsu isn't strong enough to wield Kekkai Genkai with any effectiveness even if he can copy it...not to mention that he would have had to touch all those shinobi in order to copy them.

As I'm thinking about this fact it actually punches a great big hole in your theory...Tobi/Madara isn't weak. He is able to use powerful Jutsu repeatedly and consistantly as we see in his battle with Konan and his tryst with Danzo's body guards. If Zetsu were Tobi or Tobi was a Zetsu clone that copied Madara and he was powerful enough to use those techniques then Black Zetsu wouldn't have had so little faith in his abilities. Zetsu never questions Madara/Tobi and Tobi/Madara hasn't had any trouble thus far dealing with anyone...in fact Kekkashi's MS won't even work on him...Madara laughs at him when he tries to use it on him (chapter 487 page 4)

I like the thought provoking ideas you have raised and I hope my insights only spur more thoughts like this. Keep up the good work.

on a side note your post had me re'reading a lot of chapters and I gotta say Kishimoto is a amazing. It was even better the second time through.
 

Sharingdork

Kage in the Making 👑
Legendary
Joined
Apr 17, 2010
Messages
13,401
Reaction score
503
Great post...enjoyed the citations. I have a few questions though. Why are we assuming that Madara created Zetsu? I'm not saying it isn't possible or even probable but I don't see it as fact. As far as I can tell, we only know that Madara used the Bijuu chakra to clone White Zetsu. We don't even know if Bijuu chakra is required to create Zetsu or if it's just required to create that many clones. I like your theory I just think your train of thought has a few holes that need filling.

Also I wanted to point out that we do get to see when and sort of how Madara regenerates his arm. Chapter 486 page 5 shows Madara flexing his new digits in front of what looks like the same structure where he showed Kabuto the Hashi clone. I think...and of course its just a theory...that he used the same tech which cloned the 1st to clone his arm and then used some crazy Jutsu or medical tech to reattach it. Nothing blatantly inhuman about it really.

As far as his age...like I pointed out earlier he is likely somewhere between 90 and 110...pretty old but not immortal...some sort of longevity Jutsu??? Or a fushion with clone material like how he might have regenerated his arm. If you remember back during the Pain arc, Madara was angry that Pain used his power to restore Konaha. Madara said that power was supposed to be saved for him, which leads me to believe that Madara isn't immortal at all...Zetsu or not...otherwise why would he want Pain's Jutsu?
when I said regenerate, I meant something along the lines of 're-attatch' via White Zetsu. and the pain jutsu does raise a question... I'll have to ponder that a bit.
Another question and clarification...

In my last post most of my arguments were directed at the Zetsu creation theory that you cited...when I re'read your post I realized this so my apologies.

Anyway on to my next discussion point. I noticed that you question Zetsu's ability to copy Kekkai Genkai. I don't know that you are completely on point with this. It isn't said one way or the other in the manga but it certianly isn't ruled out. What is mention is that it would be useless even if he could...Black Zetsu strait up calls him a vagina. White Zetsu isn't strong enough to wield Kekkai Genkai with any effectiveness even if he can copy it...not to mention that he would have had to touch all those shinobi in order to copy them.

As I'm thinking about this fact it actually punches a great big hole in your theory...Tobi/Madara isn't weak. He is able to use powerful Jutsu repeatedly and consistantly as we see in his battle with Konan and his tryst with Danzo's body guards. If Zetsu were Tobi or Tobi was a Zetsu clone that copied Madara and he was powerful enough to use those techniques then Black Zetsu wouldn't have had so little faith in his abilities. Zetsu never questions Madara/Tobi and Tobi/Madara hasn't had any trouble thus far dealing with anyone...in fact Kekkashi's MS won't even work on him...Madara laughs at him when he tries to use it on him (chapter 487 page 4)

I like the thought provoking ideas you have raised and I hope my insights only spur more thoughts like this. Keep up the good work.

on a side note your post had me re'reading a lot of chapters and I gotta say Kishimoto is a amazing. It was even better the second time through.

Okay, so, Black Zetsu is calling White Zetsu weak, but what if that's compaired to himself; seeing as we know little about Zetsu (especially Black), I'd like to say that Black Zetsu could be saying that White Zetsu is really weak compared to black Zetsu. Which makes me wonder what Black Zetsu can do....

Who know's Tobi wasn't bluffing, or that he meant he could teleport himself away faster than Kakashi can teleport him away.

As for the Kekkei Genkai part, it's not said one way or the other, but Zetsu wouldn't have to touch these shinobi; merely get a part of their DNA, easy with Kabuto's IWR right in front of them. And even if he does have to touch them, would a guy who can travel through the ground have trouble reaching an arm upwards from the ground, grabbing someone's ankle, and then slipping away, unnoticed?
 

faizan

Anbu Operative 🎭
Veteran
Joined
Jan 17, 2011
Messages
3,218
Reaction score
128
well... i know i have so many questions but at the moment cant think of any.....lol

1) what does IMO means xd
2) madara would have been terribly injured after the fight that he shouldn't be able to walk.

if he managed to stay alive then
3)madara didnt want to die. but if tobi is only a clone of zetsu then basically, he is dead.
 

Avani 👑

Supreme
Joined
Jan 26, 2009
Messages
20,856
Reaction score
4,020
Status
well... i know i have so many questions but at the moment cant think of any.....lol

1) what does IMO means xd
2) madara would have been terribly injured after the fight that he shouldn't be able to walk.

if he managed to stay alive then
3)madara didnt want to die. but if tobi is only a clone of zetsu then basically, he is dead.


IMO= in my opinion.
 

cryhwks

Jōnin Strategist 🧠
Veteran
Joined
Sep 11, 2008
Messages
2,221
Reaction score
117
That's a very interesting theory it would explain everything about Madara/Tobi & the only reason I haven't given up on Tobi just being Madara is because of Zetsu keeps calling him Tobi. So I think there is a good chance you are right.
 

Cfighter

Anbu Operative 🎭
Veteran
Joined
Nov 17, 2010
Messages
4,514
Reaction score
501
[QUOTEO_O You actually read it all!?!?!? HOLY CRAP!!!!![/QUOTE]

lol. I did too. Really good and plausible theory. One thing that you might not have addressed in that (Im too tired to piece it together with your theory xd) is why Madara reported to Zetsu early on (I forget when this happened exactly, but I think it happened around the time Sasuke got Itachis eyes). Usually Zetsu was the one reporting to Madara, but this time it seemed like the other way around (at least because of the way Madara spoke to zetsu and how zetsu replied. again, I would post the page, but i dont remember when and where it was). Im not sure if this backs your theory up or if its a hole, ill leave it too you. :D
 

th1s1guysays

Leaf Village Regular 🍃
Regular
Joined
Jun 15, 2011
Messages
524
Reaction score
51
Everyone talks about white Zetsu this and White Zetsu that...NOBODY has seen or even know what black Zetsu is capable of, be in mind THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT PEOPLE yet they both share the same body....THAT'S what I want explained..and what are black zetsu's powers besides "being able to record battles" surely he's not more inferior than white zetsu, and have you ever notice he lays REALLY LOW on most occasions....
 

Lemon

Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2011
Messages
406
Reaction score
0
The purpose to it is that Zetsu isn't human, and therefore, isn't bound by the rules of longevity (how long a human can live before they die of old age).


My cat ain't human either but boy did it die of old age XD

Anyways... amazing theory... totes plausible :) gj
 

GiM9Y

Member
Joined
May 25, 2011
Messages
103
Reaction score
1
I've read it all.. have been thinking about the same for some time now.. nice write up
 

nicomaki

Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2011
Messages
52
Reaction score
3
I like it. If this is the case wouldn't Oro really have wanted this??? Surely he knew about it, as he knew every jutsu he wanted to obtain. It seems Oro would have really liked to be able to this for his own non dying crave. I also think Kabuto knows it is not Madara as Tobi/Madara replies "smart ass". I like the theory. Also, kind of interested in the Black Zetsu
 

narutobbq

Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2011
Messages
14
Reaction score
1
Some are still out there Kushina said they were scattered to the winds. Also I didn't mean she could find them because of her technique but maybe because she has family or a clan so that's why she would know were other Uzumaki are at or something like that.
 

veggetta13

Anbu Operative 🎭
Veteran
Joined
Mar 11, 2010
Messages
2,742
Reaction score
91
Okay, so, I know how some people are resiliant to "Tobi isn't Madara" threads, so please do not read/comment on this thread if you are one of these. I am making this thread for people to ponder on, and I don't need haters. You have been warned.

Okay, so, I've been thinking (as I always do), and I've come to a conclusion about Madara (were you expecting me to say Tobi?). But before I get into my theory, I'll begin with facts.

Fact one, Tobi has never taken his mask off to the reader, only to characters, who have refered to him as Madara (ie. Kisame). Second, Zetsu is of Madara's creation ( ). Third, Zetsu can copy anyone near perfectly ( ). Fourth, Tobi has never been seen with Madara's EMS. Fifth, Tobi can remove his arm, leaving a white substance at the joint ( ). Sixth, Tobi helped Itachi kill off his clan. Seventh (there's a lot, aren't there? xd), Tobi has a mass collection of Sharingan at his disposal ( ). Eighth, Zetsu calls Tobi "Tobi", despite everyone else calling him "Madara" ( ). Now onto the good stuff.

But, before that, a lot of my theory branches off of this one. To understand most of my theory, you may want to read that (or skim it to get the jist of it). Now, with that settled, I'll begin.

How can a human, even the most powerful Uchiha in existance, live for as long as Madara claims to have? This is a major factor in this theory. Espcially the word, "human". You see, what first turned me to my theory is the episode (which I linked above. ). Madara takes off his arm, and leaves the white clump at the end of it behind. How interesting. And then he get's it back relativly quickly afterwards. Hmmm... Who else can detach their limbs and then regrow them...?

After thinking of this, I remembered that theory I mentioned earlier. Now, this theory says that Madara created Zetsu (or at least White Zetsu) out of Biiju chakra and Hashirama's DNA. Now, this is instrumental to my theory, and I expect that a few people may be able to put it together from here, but I'll continue for those who still need a little help.

So, since Madara created Zetsu, Madara knows exactly what Zetsu can do (unless Zetsu was a mistake, but I'm ruling that out for the time being). A question arises from this; why? Why would Madara take the biiju's chakra and Hashirama's DNA to create Zetsu? What's the purpose to it? The purpose to it is that Zetsu isn't human, and therefore, isn't bound by the rules of longevity (how long a human can live before they die of old age). This gives Madara an advantage, in a way.

Now, using the fact that Zetsu won't die of old age, and can create spores so he can't die (in a way), you have to take into account another ability of Zetsu; the fact that he can copy a person to a point. Now, Madara knew that he would die (as all people do; even the Sage), so he created Zetsu to solve this problem. By having White Zetsu make a clone of himself, and having that clone touch Madara and transform into him, by the time Madara died, there was a Zetsu clone of Madara. He also implanted his EMS into Nagato, an Uzumaki with exceptional chakra, so he could develop the Rinnegan (Madara couldn't take it for himself, as he was about to die, and he thought that Zetsu would have the EMS. This was ensuring Zetsu the Rinnegan; essential to the plan. There's a theory saying that the EMS and an Uzumaki can somehow create the Rinnegan; I'll share it sometime if I can find it). But there was a problem. The cloning process wasn't perfect...

Zetsu can't copy Kekkei Genkai (fusing with Samehada wasn't Kekkei Genkai; it was more of a Hidden Jutsu); if he could, why not just make millions of copies of every powerful ninja with epic Kekkei Genkai? Therefore, this Madara copy didn't have a Sharingan, which was a major problem for Tobi (the name Zetsu had given to the Madara representation of himself). So, Tobi went and killed an Uchiha, stealing a Sharingan from him/her. Unfortunatly, Tobi quickly realized that his Sharingan wasn't going to be enough if he were to carry out Madara's plans that were left with him (this realization came after losing to Minato). Then, Tobi found Itachi...

Tobi and Itachi worked together (or something like that) to devistate the Uchiha clan. Afterwards, Tobi took the Sharingan from the dead Uchiha to try and recreate Madara's EMS, but to no avail. But after learning that Danzo and Orochimaru were also collecting Sharingan, he wasn't about to release all of his collected Uchiha eye's to the one who had given the order to kill their owners; he's obviously planning something. This made Tobi weary of Danzo, even to the meeting at the bridge, where he found the purpose of the sharingan Danzo had collected.

After learning that Itachi had left his little brother alive, he waited for his oppertunity. After Sasuke killed Itachi (I know that Sasuke didn't actually kill him, but that's the easy way to describe it, so deal with how I adress it in my theory), Tobi took his chance, keeping his cover as 'Madara', and manipulated Sasuke's emotions so that Sasuke would work with him, and eventually ask Madara for Itachi's eyes; for the EMS Zetsu could never recreate.

Tobi's plans now are to use his last Sharingan to it's fullest and then take the other Rinnegan ( ). After having two Rinnegan within himself, he plans to take Sasuke's EMS and enfuse his Rinnegan with it to create an augmented Sharin/Rinnegan combo (as seen on the moon as Madara explained his plan. ).

But, wait... Tobi could teleport and phase through objects without Madara's eyes. What's going on here? Well, Zetsu can phase through things. But, he can only phase through plant-like materials. Or can he...? What if Tobi is the original Zetsu, and the White Zetsu we see now is one of the inferior clones, and the original could phase through more than plant-like materials? Or maybe it was a Sharingan ability, which he got from the random Uchiha he killed for the first Sharingan. Have we seen him phase through things since he used Izanagi and sealed away the one eye....? (If we have, then it's probalby a superior Zetsu tech.) And as for his teleporting, most likely also a tech. from a Sharingan (don't rule it out; Shisui could mind-control with a 3-tomoe).

Now, what is this theory missing....? I got side-tracked with the Zetsu/true Madara story I was telling..... xd Well, let's go back to the 'Zetsu was a mistake' thing. How can you accedentilly merge the biiju's chakra and Hashirama's DNA in the exact conditions needed to grow a Zetsu. If you ask me, it's highly unlikely that Zetsu was a mistake, and therefore Madara knew what Zetsu could do (with the exception of the Kekkei Genkai thing).

In conclusions, this theory basically says that Madara is and isn't who he says he is at the same time. It explains the ''I'm a shell of my former self," line, and Madara(and Tobi)'s mysterious connection to Zetsu. It also answers this; we saw that when Danzo was merged with the first (somewhat), his arm was augmented, yet Tobi displays none of this. This could be due to Zetsu's ability to easly absorb and replicate DNA, thus making a Madara/Hashirama combo easily, while retaining the physical essence of Madara only. It also says that the 6th coffin could be Madara, even though I doubt Kabuto knows about this, and believes that Tobi is Madara (as most everyone does). (It seems the only question I haven't answered is "What are the other three paths?" I'll tell you as soon as I figure it out. xd)

Now, for those of you who survived this majorly long theory, I'd like to ask; did I miss anything? Is there anything you didn't understand? Holes in my theory? I would like to defend it as much as possible, as I believe strongly in this, and I would like to know if I missed anything in making this theory iron-clad. So, questions? Comments? Concerns? Getting your stick ready to poke holes (xd)? I'm ready, so let's hear it! (It's long, I know...... X__X)

You are a Dork with writing abilities,next time think more about the readers or become even a better writer.

Theory is good, and yeah, it´s alike my theory.

Good job
 

HamzaVeli

Leaf Village Regular 🍃
Regular
Joined
Feb 18, 2011
Messages
678
Reaction score
16
that was long!! -but its got some nice points aboout it --
 
Top