They have no solid points, i agree. It is completely illogical for Tobi to be Madara. And also, they don't read or pretend not to understand all major points, ignore or skip them and then expect not to get flamed.
EMR makes some solid points. Get over the flaming, this is the internet,don't take shit so seriously here. Especially when those 2 have put up a proposition that makes no sense, their arguments just adjust in any outlandish way that could support this theory.
EMR is full of contradictions. He has made all kinds of theories in last two weeks including posting Tobi= Madara and Tobi=/=Madara. I don't know what he has been smoking.
Something just striked me. Zetsu eats dead bodies right? What if Zetsu consumed Madara after the battle? After all it is said that Madaras body was nowhere to be found. What if Zetsu or Zetsu clone ate it and thus Tobi was born? Not exactly Madara and not exactly someone else. He thinks of himself as Madara but calls himself "a shell of former self". He talks about Madara in third person as if he's not him exactly. He doesn't have any of Madaras abilities, tho he has his memories and his knowledge. Perhaps it has something to do with Zetsus recording abilities? He has tons of sharingans and we haven't seen him with disarmed sharingan which could suggest that he's not realy an Uchiha.
Tobi has bodyparts like Zetsu.
Also, Tobi was very suprised that Kabuto found Madaras dna :
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But than again who and what the fuk is real Zetsu? It doesn't look like human, more like a someones creation. He doesn't fit in the story. I wish we could know more about him >< He is the biggest mystery so far and everything spins around him.
I was trying to find similiar threads in google but I bumped on this one :
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This goes fine together with my own theory. If Zetsu created Tobi than he really isn't just a lackey or some subordinate of his. They are on the same level tho I feel like with the recent events, Tobi gains more power and starts to act as if he's in charge.
Also I found this :
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Tobi says "this is nothing more than living cells which I stole from Hokage during our battle.."
If Kabuto has Edo Madara and he presumably knows who Tobi is how can Tobi say that it was his fight? He wouldn't have any reason to keep on that "I am Madara charade" in front of Kabuto.
Only logical explanation to me would be that Zetsu accompanied Madara at that time and Zetsu stole those cells. Or Tobi really is Madara
I'll add manga pages to backup my words if there's any interest in this theory.
And I found it weired when a new members signs in at NB to make precisely 10 or less posts mostly in one thread only and to thank the OP and then stop all activity just like that.
As for flaming- I commented because you guys were starting to bore me with your silly cliche flames.
Get innovative. There are better insults to throw around if you must.
Btw i dont buy into tobi being a zetsu clone cuz we dont even fully know anything about zetsu (where is he from? Why split personalities? Is he even human? Age? Etc) Besides zetsu can clone a person down to the chakra but zetsu cant copy someones memories, knowledge, experience etc. Tobi had knowledge, memories and experiences of madara.
i agree with everything you said but this. it's precisely the fact that we know NOTHING about zetsu that makes it likely that tobi is connected to him. he seems to be made of the same material, at least in part, as white zetsu, and they seem to have a history together, they seemed to be accomplices not superior and subordinate in some scenes (for example when tobi was saying we could never have made it this far without hidan, deidara pain etc after pain died)
it makes it easier for me to address specific points so i will continue to do it.
Now, i'll be very thorough, please listen carefully and impartially to what i say and i will take my time with this post and address every angle of this issue after i reply to your post. This may prove to be a lengthy read so buckle up(no, its gonna be veeerrrryyy long, i promise you that but i'll back it all up.)
Well first of all that sequence of events is tempered by the simultaneous existence of the masked man, who has claimed in the manga to be Madara and the appearance now of a man who is definitely Madara. This much, is beyond dispute for any sane person. And if it validates, in your eyes that Tobi is Madara then how does the real Madara also possess the rinnegan? Is that a coincidence? I think not. Let me remind you of one very important fact, prior to the last 3 chapters it was a HUGE mystery as to how in hell did Tobi manage to acquire the rinnegan which he gave to Nagato in the first place?
And here's where it gets interesting: the power of the senju and the uchiha, plus the unique power of Madara with his EMS, and Madara's power alone, is what enabled him to awaken the rinnegan eye in himself.
nothing but the fact that Rinnegan is a level beyond sharingan is for sure. it is not certain that uchiha = senju makes rinnegan or if madaras power played a role or if its to do with ems. whats fact is that rinnegan is a level after sharingan. and also you can infer that rinnegan is only specific to uchiha side and not much to do with senju because it was the uchihas who inheritted the sages eyes. but its plausible that senju powers can give an uchiha a boost to change a sharingan to rinnegan i suppose but i doubt it.
But Tobi also has the power of the uchiha and the senju, and if he had the power of Madara, if he were Madara, he should have been able to awaken rinnegan himself!! He would'nt have needed to go to Nagato at all!!! I know what you're going to say, he first awakened it once, gave it to Nagato got some new sharingans and cannot repeat this action. My answer: Bull(sry) !!
no Madara specifically said that he awakened the rinnegan shortly before his death. Madara and Kabuto also validated what Tobi said about Madara in that Madara survived the fight with Hashirama. nothing and nowhere does it says that madar aawakened rinnegan towards the fight with the 1st. thats speculation. not a bad one really but you saying it as if it is fact is not cool.
and now he's awakened it again meaning it can be done multiple times.....but to do it you have to be, ..........wait for it........MADARA!!
you must be confused in what i am trying to say. because thats not what im trying to say.
The mist village part and how Tobi and Nagato met was'nt what i was pointing out in my previous post. Please at least answer the point that i was making, and it had nothing to do with what you have just said on this point here. What i said was that the real Madara, the one who got resurrected, how it would have been possible for him to have known about Nagato. I said that this was possible as he did not die at the valley of the end but in fact lived on and it may have been possible for him to have lived on with the help of the 1st hokage's cells until the time when Nagato was around.....the details of that meeting are unknown and it was'nt even sth i tried to address smh.
i agree with the fact that Madara survived the fight at the valley and meant Nagato some time later. that is very probable based on the manga.
Just because Danzo did'nt control the kyuubi does'nt mean he could not have . You're now contradicting yourself here. In your first post you said Tobi never lies and now you forget that it was Tobi who said this :
how am i contradicting myself? Tobi said that with uchiha and hashirama danzo has the power to control kyuubi but how does that prove he is a liar or that i am contradicting?
and you are right that because Danzo didnt control kyuubi doesnt mean he couldnt. you are correct and i agree. but i believe you missed my point when i said that Madara, Tobi, Hashirama and technically Naruto have been the only ones to tame/control Kyuubi. during the 2nd 9tails attack we know Tobi couldnt have been Hashirama, or Naruto. Danzo has the power to control Kyuubi but during the attack he didnt even have sharingans yet because the massacre hasnt happened nor shisuis death.
but many evidence points to it being madara being tobi due to kyuubi's recognition, minatos assumption, itachis account, tobis confession and the fact that out of everyone that has controlled or can control the kyuubi, Madara is the only avaible person. process of elimination.
So Tobi says he can control the kyuubi, so your argument that the fact that Danzo did'nt control the Kyuubi meaning he cannot do it is wrong and is disproved right there.
you are confused with my point. Danzo can control the Kyuubi. Tobi said so. but could he have controlled the Kyuubi during the 2nd attack on the leaf? yes or no? did he have shisui ete, sharingan arms, and hashirama cells at that point? did he have both hashirama cells and sharingans which allow him power to control Kyuubi during the 2nd attack?
About the sharingans. The power of the 9 tails chakra, was supposed to have belonged only to the jinchuriki or to no one else. Yet the Kin Gin brothers possessed it all the way upto the 6 tails....Just because kishi has'nt told of anyone using the uchiha + Hashirama powers to tame the kyuubi other than Madara does'nt mean it can't be done.
idk your point in bringing up the kin gin bros. they ingested kyuubis stomach and gained massive amounts of its powers being able to go 6 tails cloak mode. thats not the same as taming a tailed beast.
and also Madara was the only uchiha to have controlled 9 tails. this suggest that he was tobi during 2nd attack especially when you also add the facts of other people suggesting tobi was madara during the attack (kyuubi, minato, itachi, tobi)
I already linked the page above where Tobi clearly says that uchiha and hashi powers can tame the kyuubi. I know you will now link Itachi's statement that only our eye powers can control the kyuubi,
yea i saw the link. thank you. and no i wasnt going to make this arguement because evidently the sharingan is not the only way one can tame a tailed beast.
also having both sharingan and wood release (hashirama cells) is also not the only way to tame a tailed beast.
madara tamed kyuubi prior to gaining hashirama cells.
hashirama tamed kyuubi and other tailed beasts without sharingans.
your sticking to 1 thing and thats you need both and in an attempt to debunk what i said but its not working because you failed to even understand the point i was making is that Madara was the only one by process of elimination to have controlled kyuubi during the 2nd attack.
well he was wrong as you have yourself admitted that everything Tobi said was true
i said everything Tobi has said has been validated by another character.
and Itachi wasnt wrong with what he said because you forget the reason why he said that. wood release allows one to control or tame a kyuubi as seen with Hashirama, Yamato and even Danzo(yamato not as good or strong as hashirama. and Danzo in theory because he has never shown to do so) but no one had wood release or hashirama cells during the 2nd attack so by elimination it leaves only ones with sharingan to control kyuubi during the attack.
itachi said only our eyes can control kyuubi because the uchihas or an uchiha were the only suspects to have been the ones to stage the attack. there was no wood user, unless you want to argue that somehow Danzo did it to stage the Uchihas or that teenage Yamato did it.
and he said that about the taming of the Kyuubi bit. Itachi made several flaws, and also remember he said he was surprised to know that Naruto could control the kyuubi :
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He says i never thought you'd advance so far.....meaning Itachi clearly did not expect that naruto, a non uchiha would be able to tame the 9 tails, which he obviously did.
This argument was in case you now decide to quote Itachi out of context here.
yes you did take what Itachi said out of context. very much. and just cuz you can make a counter arguement for your claims doesnt invalidate the counter arguement as you would hope or make it seem so.
anyways most likely Itachi meant that he was suprised that Naruto would be able to tame the kyuubi and make its powers his own because this is an incredibly hard task to do since only a few have ever been able to do it including Bee, Yugito, and Mizukage Yagura (Utakata too i guess). most jinchurikis die because they cannot handle the tailed beast, and the others who handle somehow have very poor control (Gaara and Naruto in the beginning.
And kyuubi being released from Kushnina was expected....?
when i said expected i mean that it was a great possibility because, as you know very well, that the seal is weakened during birth that a great chance that the tailed beast can be released.
i didnt mean expected as in people was waiting for it to happened. i meant by it stood a good chance of happening. just like based on statistics you can expect to die from having a motorcycle accident, because in most cases people die in motorcycle accidents.
Wtf lol are you trying to troll me now? Really? Try saying this to yourself and think about it, think before you type. That's just total bullshit and you have to be retarded to actually believe it. There's just no damn way the Kyuubi would have attacked Konoha had tobi not instigated it.
yes Minato would have duh. but if no one was there to reseal the kyuubi and kushina was giving birth would the kyuubi be freed? yes or no? based on the probability that tailed beasts stand a great chance of being freed due to broken or weakened seals during childbirth.
There would'nt have been the attack that Tobi mentioned to Sasuke as being a 'natural event' which caused a lot of blame to fall on the uchiha
its natural for a tailed beast to be unleashed during child birth. thats why there were preperations to prevent this disastor with Minato being there to reseal kyuubi while naruto was being born.
and yes i agree that there wouldnt have been an attack hadnt been for Tobi but that tailed beast being released during childbirth is considered a natural disaster.
Even a 6 year old kid can see the obvious situation here that Tobi was lying so that Sasuke won't know that it was he who was responsible for the uchiha's falling into disrepute by causing the 9 tails attack that laid the groundwork for the uchiha's later persecution and the planned rebellion and assassination that followed of the clan
he didnt lie by giving false informaiton. he told the truth but withheld the fact that he instigated it. Sasuke knows that he was responsible. Itachi told him.
nothing proves that Tobi attacked Kyuubi to set up the Uchiha. Tobi wanted to attack the leaf, saw his oppurtunity was right since Kushina was giving birth but was stopped and defeated by Minato. the end resulted in Uchiha being blamed, genocided and Sasuke going mad.
He was trying to win Sasuke over to his side. Are you really that dumb that you cannot comprehend this simple fact? You're just justifying what you're saying without any logic whatsoever and are acting stubborn and dogmatic. Try to display more common sense and do not ignore the obvious.
There is a lot of difference from person to person who uses the technique as far as Izanagi is concerned. You maintain that Tobi is nowhere near the level of the Sage of the 6 Paths, and you also say that Tobi is in fact, Madara. Then please explain to me just how the **** its possible that Madara who is nowhere near the Sage's level is able to do what only the Sage could, i.e give form to nothingness.
whos to say that Tobi came out of nothing? what if Tobi was a sample of Madaras dna fused with Hashiramas or something and birthed by inazagi? lol. idk how to explain it but inazagi makes the impoosible, possible. the unimaginable, maginable.
inazagi saved Danoz 10 times from death and Tobi from being exploded but Madara cant use it to make a duplicate of himself or somethin?
are you saying its impossible for Tobi to still be Madara even through use of Inazagi? yes or no?
But according to your theory, Madara has exceeded the Sage, as he not only gives form to nothingness but breathes life into it as well. In your theory, Madara is a God. Its ironic that this 'God' is now reduced to being a puppet of Kabuto, Oro's right hand man and Sasori's former spy. lol. Seriously dude, you're not looking at this straight and i'm not the only one saying that either. All your points just scream Tobi=Madara fanboy. That's the truth. Have you forgotten that the only time we know of that even the Sage of 6 Paths used Izanagi he did'nt actually make something or someone from thin air, but in fact he used the chakra of the 10 tails, which already was in existence and whose jinchuriki he had made himself, and he split up that chakra to make 9 different tailed beasts. Its not really something out of nothing. I know what Tobi said in the manga, but unlike you i don't believe he's some kind of demi God who's words are infallible and i believe he did'nt give the correct explanation for the working of the Izanagi jutsu. When has anyone ever in history made something, let alone somebody , from nothing using just Izanagi? That makes no sense whatsoever.
never did i say Madara surpased sage or that Madara is GOD or a demi god.
"he did'nt give the correct explanation for the working of the Izanagi jutsu."
oook so why dont you give the correct explanation for the working of Inzagi since you know more than Kishi.
Now i'm seriously starting to think you're just trolling away here. Did you just say 'nobody but madara would be able to perform izanagi..'? just been completely exposed, what you just said there is total garbagAre you high? Or have you not read the whole manga so as to say that? Do i really have to go and explain to you that the tech Danzo used while fighting Sasuke is called Izanagi? Reaally now, someone needs to get their head examined. You've e and it just points to just one thing: you're completely ignorant, have not even bothered to read the whole manga and are really just pulling things out of your ass. Sorry to go down this hard on you but this is in fact what you are actually doing. Danzo used izanagi, anyone with freaking uchiha powers and senju dna can perform Izanagi and you're telling me that Madara is the only one who has ever performed Izanagi ......your argument=epic fail
you misunderstood my point. let me explain and it will be clear.
Sage, Tobi and Danzo has been the only ones to ever use Inazagi so far in the manga.
Madara can use it becasue he has sharingan and wood release. like you said
"anyone with freaking uchiha powers and senju dna can perform Izanagi"
so who is most likely to be Tobi if Tobi can use Inazagi?
Sage?
Danzo?
Madara?
Actually this is really fun, i don't even have to do anything you just keep pawning yourself by making statements that are invalid and the exact opposite of whats been shown in the manga. All i have to do is point it out, lol. And read my above paras to see why Izanagi does'nt make just anything possible. Oh, and please try to think logically while you're at it. And that's only your own opinion that Muu's splitting technique is more plausible than Tobi not being Madara. For starters, he's been resurrected by IWR which can only be done to people who are dead
Muu split himself. half of him is sealed and the other half is still fighting. logically that would mean that not only does the splitting along one to physically split but to split spiritually as well. i will give more support in your other comments.
.....name one, just one shinobi who's ever been resurrected via IWR, yet they were also alive at the same time and even before the IWR jutsu was cast...? None exist who meet this criterion. You have evidently taken leave of your senses in making this theory, then lost all remaining semblance of sanity by arguing back. Now you're just raging ' Tobi is Madara cuz i'm that theories number 1 fanboy'!!! Really, knock some sense into yourself. None of your arguments are valid. They also pay no heed to what has been shown in the manga, your just saying whatever bullshit hits you at the spur of the moment. That's the definition for bad trolling, not serious discussions. On at least 2 occasions now you have stated things to be fact that were in total contradiction to what has been said in the manga. For example, next you say minato sealed a part of himself here, and then there. Well was Minato resurrected by the Impure World technique? No, he was'nt. Was any damn ****ing shinobi in the history of Naruto, who was sealed in their lifetime(before dying, so gtfo with your fail Muu argument) EVER brought back by IWR? I said this before and i'll say this again: its just not possible and your arguments are'nt fooling me or anyone with half an intellect.
i cannot name a shinobi who has have been ressurected by IWR and been alive at the same time. but i can give reasons why it may be possible.
like i said inazagi makes it possible. i explained why.
splitting makes it possible. i will explain in the very next quote.
there has been other examples where people and things have been sealed but co existed or died.
Minato appeared in Naruto's conscious. but yet Minato is dead and sealed in Reaper seal. who is this possible? because Minato 1st sealed some of his chakra into Naruto's conscious. than 2nd sealed himself in reaper seal and died.
forget about IWR. we are talking about souls or even consciousnesses co existing in different realms or 2 different places.
you had Minato existing dormant in Narutos mind and sealed in Reaper seal.
next example is you have Kushina who was also sealed in Narutos mind before she died.
now you have Hachibi who is well and alive and sealed in Bee, but he has chakra from his severed tentacled sealed in Gedo Mazo as well.
same as Kyuubi being alive and sealed in Naruto but he has HALF his chakra sealed in both Reaper seal and another portion sealed in Gedo Mazo taken from kinggin.
now there are characters that prove this is possible
you have Zetsu who can be in 2 places at once. 2 consciousness 2 separate thinking minds 2 personalities but yet you deem it impossible for Madara and Tobi to be the same way?
Muu (explain later)
and even some people beleive that Orochimaru can make a comeback through Kabuto. we know that Oro is sealed thanks to Itachi. but his will still lives in Kabuto. even Kabuto admits that he has to supress Oros cells from taking over. what would happen if Kabuto would lose control? we can strongly suggest that Oro would once again rear his ugly face.
there are many jutsus, characaters and incidences that make Madara and Tobi being the same or at least at one time being 1, possible.
btw i know what you are going to say with the Minato example and such. "He sealed his chakra not his soul!"
well true and Minatos chakra and Kushinas chakra still held theri consciousness, knowledge and memories inside of Narutos mind. Tobi claims to be Madara and had knowledge and memories of Madara. it could have been Madara sealed some of his chakra in a body (made by inazagi or hashirama cells or whatever). that may be why Tobi has Madaras knowledge as well why he calls himself Madara.
i know what you'll say to this (see i can do it too) "Kushina and Minato lasted in Naruto for only minutes! how could Tobi lasted for years?!?"
well....
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Tobi (/Madara)- "i was born with the greatest chakra theyd ever seen. my stubborn refusal to die could be considered proof of that"
tobi madara here insinuates that his chakra is the result of why he is still alive
Oh, oh , oh and btw that other half is'nt really Muu, its a deception and a fake, like Bee did when he made his tentacle appear to be his whole self while fighting Sasuke. Not that it even really matters in this context, it would have if Muu's one split half were alive, then the other half were resurrected by IWR.
And here:
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Kabuto says the 'bunshin' was sealed, Bunshin means clone, like shadow clone or similar, its not something which holds your soul or can survive while the original is dead. The clone can be sealed and the original will survive, yes, but its impossible for the clone to survive once the original is dead in any bunshin technique.
bunshin means. " the spirit/mind of stopping the sword".
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and i found it also means "divding and advancing"
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take it as you will.
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as you can see here in the manga, Muu is "splitting" himself. not using a shadow clone or clone jutsu as you would imply. yes bunshin but if anything bunshin means doppleganger, copy, clone, but doesnt mean Muu is a shadow clone.
Kabuto- "Muu's technique (jutsu) is not cloning, but splitting.
splitting
1.Break or cause to break forcibly into parts, esp. into halves or along the grain.
2.Remove or be removed by breaking, separating, or dividing
dictionary.com
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and not only that but half of Muu is sealed and the other is still fighting.
Muu tried to get the seal off his other half but couldnt.
Naruto- "Gaara sealed him didnt he?"
Onoiki- "he managed to split off a double of himself.."
so another example of a person having part of himself sealed and the other part doing something else.
So Madara, the original could not possibly still have been alive in the form of his clone Tobi once his original self had died.So that disproves your ridiculous fantasy of Madara using a technique like Muu's. Try harder, cuz right now you're completely failing.
i hope MS is not your only defense. theres plenty of ninjas who are just as strong as a MS user. being an MS user doesnt automatically make you stronger than most ninjas.
that could only activate every 10 years...............
that even a prodigy like Itachi has praised, the Doryuku of his, have you forgotten how Danzo controlled Mifune w/o even exposing the eye of Shisui? And Konan being Tobi is a lot more logical than this parade of BS as a sorry excuse for a theory that you have given of him being Madara, despite all the obvious evidence from the manga to the contrary.
anyways all that doesnt change the fact that just because SHisui or Izuna werent summoned doesnt mean they are tobi or mean the ones summoned like zabuza and asuma are lesser ninjas. matter fact kabuto doesnt even have shisui dna to summon him and the same conclusion can be made to anybody else he hasnt summoned-that he just doesnt have their dna. or they are sealed.
Such as...? I have already proven to you beyond all reasonable doubt that no 'crazy ass justu' even exists that can do what you claim has happened with Tobi being Madara even though Madara's soul was'nt in him....that's the definition for not being him. Aaargh, your points have so much stupidity and ignorance it makes my head spin.
so according to your opinon there cant be no "crazy ass jutsu" that makes it possible for Tobi Madraa and edo Madara to exist? why not?
wouldnt it be logical for tobi to be madara based on his actoins and knowledge? a crazy ass jutsu that made it possible for him to be madara would serve to keep the logic of everything that Tobi has done. do you disagree?
Like what, or when? All the examples of the so called 'countless times' this has happened in the manga i have individually explained to you are utter bullshit so stop running your ****ing mouth with this nonsense. You're just a fanboy who's either too stubborn or too stupid to accept that their wrong and nothing they say makes any Goddamn sense. I mean, fake madara has the word 'madara' in it so that proves Tobi is Madara...? GTFO.
None of the examples in your last para make any sense as they don't apply to this situation in any way whatsoever, but your just too stubborn to accept this obvious fact. But enough about this nonsense and flaming. Now lets move onto why Tobi is NOT Madara, backed up by these simple points:
1. Why does Tobi wear a mask? There's really no need for this. And don't compare Kakashi or Shino. Neither covers the whole face like Tobi does. You can only see the sharingan eye on Tobi's mask(and now the rinnegan) you cannot the other features like you can with Kakashi and Shino.
and besides hes shown himself to Kisame. and Kyuubi recognized him. Itachi says its him. and Minato says Madara is most likely him.
2. If its part of the character to just wear a mask like Kakashi as you say, then why is it in the flashbacks Madara's full face is shown, and also now when he's been resurrected the whole face comes into view? He should wear the mask all the time, Kakashi always wore a mask even in kakashi gaiden yet if Madara is Tobi then why did former Madara in youth not wear a mask and why does the current one do it...?
why ? who cares? what does that even prove? your trying to argue that Tobi isnt Madara because he wears a mask. weak bro.
3. Why does Kabuto say to Tobi, what he says here:
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'Anyway, you can relax i have'nt told a soul'. This, in light of the recent manga to back it up, totally rubbishes all Tobi=Madara claims. Why would Kabuto say i have'n told a soul to Tobi? Think about that. If Tobi is Madara what use is that? If i were Madara, i would'nt give a damn about that statement, or even that coffin. I would'nt be shocked, id be relieved, ah here's my other half, i'd sneer and snap at kabuto and force him to give me control over that body right there and then via the same genjutsu he used on the mizukage.
who cares? lol.. what difference if he said "his", "him", "your", "our". etc
Instead, what does Tobi actually do? He gets shocked, the kind of shock only an imposter who is a fake and knows it would have.
P.S: I know you annoying ass Tobi=Madara noobs are know going to show the next page, even though it does'nt actually support you but you might interpret it that way so i'll do it first:
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Yes, Kabuto calls him Uchiha Madara here, but Tobi than says 'Wise guy..' why would Tobi say that if he were well and truly Madara?
i cant explain that. Kabuto calls Tobi Madara. this is obviously sarcasm and TObi calls him wise guy... it infers that Tobi is not Madara. but than again its still possible that Tobi may be a dobbleganger Madara as well.
4. Why does the masked man Tobi always refer to himself in third person, as if he were talking about somebody else? Like the page where he says: My power, Uchiha Madara's power.
actually Tobi MANY times refers to himself as Madara in 1st person. just read ALL the times that Tobi is talking...... and again who cares if hes referring to himself in 3rd person.. what does that prove?!? weak ass arguement.
5. First, understand the secrets behind edo tensei to know what comes next, and how and why it proves Tobi is not Madara. I'll use a simple approach and give links from the manga to prove my very obvious point.:
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Those are the basics about the technique, such as the soul being called back from the pure world to this, the impure world.
But its the next page that really takes a shit in the face of these Tobi=Madara nonsense:
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'If the soul has been sealed elsewhere....they CANT be resurrected'. So if Madara's soul was sealed somehow into Tobi, then Madara should never have been resurrected. Its as simple as this. Yet sadly, some people just refuse to listen to reason.
yes and Muu can split and have half his soul sealed and the other alongside Madara.
and i said Tobi may be a partially sealed soul or partially sealed chakra. i never said the whole thing.
6. The evidence from the recent manga. After point number 5 has been established, any normal sane person would simply accept that Tobi is not Madara after seeing this thrown in his face by kishi:
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As if that were not proof enough, there's more still to come.:
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Madara obviously talks about Tobi here, yet whats incredibly funny is that not only do all Tobi=Madara fanboys ignore the fact that Madara calls Tobi 'him', but notice that Madara, according to you people, despite being Tobi, does'nt even know what's on his own mind.LMAO!!!!xd The very second Madara came back he should have been able to form a mental link with Tobi like Shikaku has with the shinobi army, this is obvious if they are somehow magically the same conscience.
7. None of the current kages believe that Tobi is Madara, proven when Tsunade says we were all played for suckers, though they should have had some suspicion and would very likely have known if there were some technique which allowed Tobi to be Madara and Madara to be resurrected at the same time.
The fact is, that this idea of Tobi still being who he claims is bullshit.
yet onoiki found it easy to belive that tobi was amdara and now he cant imagine anyone esle to be tobi.
also you are assuming that they should have had some suspicion and know about a jutsu that allows tobi to stilll be madara.
8. And finally, here in the last manga Madara says 'our plan' rather than 'my plan' which is what he should have said if Tobi were just his other half.
lol word play like "our" instead of "me" or whatever means absolutely nothing to me.. it proves nothing. it disproves nothing.
I don't know if this finally convinces the people who are acting like noobs in believing Tobi's still Madara, but i had to give it one exhaustive, thorough go. If you, NarutoVsGoku or anyone else does'nt reply to this, i don't care. Because i certainly won't be making any replies after this one.
if you were wondering everything in red is you just flamming and raging lol i found it funny.
you started out ok. but than started raging .. idk why. whatever though. i expected much better from you out of everyone on this site. i considered you to be part of the sensible group..
but to each their own opinions man.
btw this was hella long.. try to keep it short next time. oh wait you said your not responding no more
edit: i just wanted to thank everyone who thanked this thread and gave me +reps. in 2 days i gained like 70 points. thanks guys
Anyone whos been reading my comments in threads about tobis identity know that i am a strong believer that tobi is nobody but madara. Even with the past 3 chapters basically disproving this i still think if tobi is anybody, madara is still the best possibility.
Comparisons and reasons to believe tobi is madara:
Nagato:
What both tobi and madara said about nagato. Tobi planned nagato to use the reviving jutsu for his purposes. Madara was revived and instantly assumed nagato to have used his reviving powers.
Rinnegan:
Both tobi and madara have rinnegans. Madara gained it before his death. Tobi took his from nagato, who he claimed that he was only taking back what was originally his.
Kyuubi:
Both tobi and madara have controlled and tamed kyuubi. Through the use of sharingan eye. Only people who have controlled/tamed kyuubi are madara, tobi, hadhirama and i guess you can include naruto. But you need either a sharingan or wood release. But even with a sharingan and wood release not just anybody can control kyuubi. Tobi and madara are the only ones to have ever controlled kyuubi and use him to attack the village. Hashirama was able to tame kyuubi and other tailed beasts and its implied because of his wood release but yamato with wood release can barely control naruto with 4tails cloak mode (plus yamato said that since naruto broke the 1st hokage crystal its impossible for him to restrain him now).
But my point is that both and only tobi and madara have controlled kyuubi with their doujutsus. Itachi said madara was the only one to do so. And craziest thing is that kyuubi instantly recognized tobis chakra just like he instantly recognized edo madara.
Witnesses:
Itachi, pain, konan, kisame, minato and kyuubi all gave witness that tobi is or most likely is madara. This is something i can never get over. You cant deny the account of kyuubi, or minato whos first and only guess to who tobi was was madara. Or pain and konan who were working closely with tobi. Or kisame who saw his face and recognized it was madara. Or itachi who said he knew
Madara was still alive and searched for him.
Wood release/hashirama cells:
Both tobi and evidently madara have hashirama cells. Tobi has it cuz hes capatable with replacing limbs to what seems like to be hashirama or zetsu parts. Tobi can use inazagi which takes sharingan and wood release to do. Madara can use wood release and kabuto knows madara took hashiramas powers (dna?)
Everything tobi has said has been proven true by other characters:
What tobi said about sage proven by jiraiya. What he said about uchiha massacre was proven by itachi and danzo. Everything he said about hashirama basically proven by kakashi, orochimaru etc. And now kabuto and madara are proving what tobi said about madara. Tobi said madara survived the fight agaisnt hashirama even though he lost. He also said madara gained hashiramas cells and that he gave nagato the rinnegan. Kabuto and madara are verifying these things to be very possible and true.
Well all these things point to the conclusion that tobi is madara but obviously theres more to it.
Even though evidently madara is the best posibility he also is not based on the last 3 chapters.
1. Madara is revived. Wtf. I shouldnt have to explain how edo tensi works abd the whole soul thing
2. With the dialogue in the past chapters its being hinted that tobi aka "the masked man" used madaras name and reputation to gain attention and start the war
Just like how fugaku, izuna and obito all died and were shown dead and this proves they are not tobi. I cant deny madara being alive proves that he died so its impossible for him to be tobi also. (kagami is dead too. The 2 elders said they are the last 2 from their generations, which means danzo, hiruzen and yes kagami and everyone else of 3rd sarutobis generation are dead. Besides kagami is an irrevelant character. Iruka is more important than him.)
And You have to take into account of the dialogue of the chapters saying tobi impersonated madara for reputation.
But theres ways around it. Despite the recent chapters the evidence of madara being tobi outwieghs the possibility of him not. Tobi can be a product of inazagi, splitting, or a combination of hashirama cells and madaras will, memories, chakra or a piece of his soul. Those are just theories.
You have to take into account that tobi and madara are very closely alike not based on appearance (which alot of dumb people have based their theories on) but based on knowledge, power And actions. Nobody, no other uchiha would have had the knowledge tobi had except madara because madara had ems and rinnegan and able to decifer the tablets and madara has witnessed the leaf foundation. Tobi had this knowledge through madaras point of view so my theory is........
That in the future it will be explained that tobi is still somehow madara. It will be another plot twist that defies edo tensi.
Btw i dont buy into tobi being a zetsu clone cuz we dont even fully know anything about zetsu (where is he from? Why split personalities? Is he even human? Age? Etc) Besides zetsu can clone a person down to the chakra but zetsu cant copy someones memories, knowledge, experience etc. Tobi had knowledge, memories and experiences of madara.
Can u explain why tobi/madara didnt take care of nagato during his childhood?? he almost faced death during that war. If he dies there is no chance to revive original madara and If tobi is madara he wouldnt let that happen.
well the point is he is still Madara even though a part of his true self.......
If I'm usually athletic and have a high self esteem and then I lose my arms and all my willpower after that and If I say I'm now just a shell of my former self...does that mean that I'm not the person I used to be = my identity disappears....?
well you think it's that obvious, I do not. Kabuto calling him "fake Madara" imo just means that Tobi isn't the real Madara but just the former self of the real Madara as you said. So in a way he's Madara but just a fake one, 'cause the real one is on the battlefield.
well you think it's that obvious, I do not. Kabuto calling him "fake Madara" imo just means that Tobi isn't the real Madara but just the former self of the real Madara as you said. So in a way he's Madara but just a fake one, 'cause the real one is on the battlefield.
I've gone over many things in my head and there is a flaw in every one of them; including yours. However, there is one person that I'm currently working on being Tobi and so far I haven't found anything that would go against it (since we didn't know that much about him to begin with): Kagami Uchiha. For him to have been amongst Tobirama Senju, Hiruzen Sarutobi, Koharu Utatane, Homura Mitokado, Danzō Shimura, and Torifu Akimichi, would mean he would be a considerable force to be reckoned with. For one, he's old enough to know all the things he knows now. Two, he was among a Senju and could have gotten his DNA instead of Hasirama in order to use the Izanagi. But, even then, Hashirama's cells were already in great supply on the market. We also have no clue what his abilities are; and, for an elder like himself to be killed by itachi easily would be a feat. Also, looking at this images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110119100415/naruto/images/1/1c/Konoha_fights_fox.png , we can spot the only person unaccounted for, Kagami. "Tobi" in the mean time, was busy with the fourth. We know that Tobi can't be the same person as Madara not just 'cause Madara was summoned but also because Kabutomaru suggested "his" motives might not be the same as Madara/he might deviate from the plan, or something along those lines (also, saying "Fake Madara"). I've also taken into account that it could be someone who isn't even Uchiha. For all we know, he hasn't even used Mangekyo sharingan, so no susano'o, or amaterasu. He also only seems to fight using the intangible and teleportation techniques. And, why use Izanagi (against Konan) when you could use Susano'o?! That said, he could be limited for some reason (my thinking, him not being a real Uchiha). My biggest bet nonetheless still lies on Izuna being Tobi.
And, the fighting style is entirely different, as previously said. If Madara had the ability to be intangible, he wouldn't have used the Sharingan on the big guy nor would he have revealed his Rinnegan.
I guess I will have to shot you down, you have been babbling to much for me to ignore it. I'll include manga pages this time.
you mistaken me asking whether kyuubi knew OR recognized tobi as "or" meaning "either or" when i meant "in other words" knew and recognize are synomous so you are admitting that kyuubi knew and recognized tobi when he said "you"
I won't even answer the first paragraph of your response as it's obvious that if Kyuubi recognized Tobi, he must have known him.
and so if kyuubi recognized or knew tobi when he said "you" than who else can tobi be if kyuubi only has a history of dealing with madara as the only uchiha to control him?
Here is where you selfpwn yourself once again. Kyuubi had no history in any Uchiha controling him with just SHARINGAN as far as we know. Madara used Mangekyou Sharingan or even EMS to control him as suggested in this page :
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Only other known way to control Kyuubi is by implanting Hashiramas cells in yourself and using sharingan which is exactly what Tobi was doing. BURNED
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See? He even explained how did he controlled Kyuubi
what difference does it make. you would come up with an excuse to why tobi isnt madara if kyuubi said "madara" or "this chakra".. you already admitted taht kyuubi knew and recognized tobi so think about it really hard exactly what that means!
Why then the only time we see Tobi controlling Kyuubi he says "you.." and not "Madara.." or "this is Madara's chakra" as when it happens with Madara?
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Not only that but Tobi was close to Naruto couple of times already, and none of those times Kyuubi felt Madara's presence or his chakra. It was only when real Madara showed up, Kyuubi started to panic. To such point that he even gave up his chakra willingly to Naruto.
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Rikkudou scattered Bijuus all over the world.
Alot of people could have met up with bijuus before Madara or Hashi. Your statement that Kyuubi could only have recognized Tobi as Madara and none else is flawed and not backed up by anything.
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Kyuubi recognizes the rikkudou seal. You realize how many people Kyuubi could have met since the time of Sage6? Nowhere does it says how old is Tobi and from which time he is. Immortality is not a big deal in this manga, even such weakling like Sasori had it.
blah blah blah i can't understand difference between clones and creations blah blah blah and so on so wtf is you saying when you say creation wouldnt have resembled madara?
If it's created through Izanagi it's a new being with it's own chakra.
Tobi doesn't have the same doujutsu(ms,ems,rinnegan) nor the same abilities as Madara. In fact he has his own jutsu. Tobi is hidding his face even tho the whole charade was to make everyone believe he's Madara. If he had his appeance and his goal was to make eveyone believe he is Madara than why is he hidding his face?
With this im just pointing out that even if Madara created Tobi through Izanagi then it's a new being of it's own and he shouldn't have Madara's chakra as he doesn't have anything else from him. The only thing that Tobi has in common with Madara is his memories which aren't even specific and any accomplice of Madara or just Uchiha could have known that.
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"I know everything there is to know about Itachi."
What a coincidence that a man who knows everything there is to know about Itachi knows everything about Madara... not! He has the best spy at his disposal - Zetsu. He can spy on everyone unnoticed, not even by sharingan. And what a coincidence that Zetsu is always recording fights between people?
Not that im saying Zetsu was spying on Madara, if Tobi and Madara were partners then obviosly they shared knowledge, especially the details about Hashi and Madara fight.
and if lets say creation wouldnt resembled madara (hypothetically) that destroys your whole point because you are saying nobody would resemble madaras chakra not even a creation so that would only mean that kyuubi recognized madara for being mdadara because nobody not even a creation can duplicate madara chakra. smh great comeback EMR
Where does it says that Kyuubi recognized Tobi as Madara? Great comeback NvG :flaw:
"Izanagi has this ability yes"
that alones proves my point and debunks yours. thank you for agreeing.
inazagi having the ability means that it is possible hat madara used it to recreate himself as tobi madara. nothing to prove that ONLY sage could use inazagi like that and nothing to disprove that madara couldnt use it like that. if you disagree, manga links or gtfo.
How does it prove your point when we have never even seen Madara using Izanagi? Don't feed me with possibilities, give me an actual proof or :stfu:
just because you say it is, doesnt make it so, unless you provide examples or reasons why. you saying i am biased for example doesnt mean that is true unless you prove and give reasons to how i am biased. so what you just said in this part means shit. why? because you did not give valid reasons.
Go reread your posts, there is enough examples or reasons.
has style that could be recognized. just like kyuubi recognized tobi. or kisame recognized tobi to be madara. or itachi recognized tobi to be madara. and etc etc etc.
btw at least i give examples. you breathe hot air.
I love how you selfown yourself, not just because you are ignorant but because you are doing the same thing you accuse me of.
Kyuubi never recognized Tobi as Madara, there's no proof for that so :stfu:
Itachi never saw Tobi without a mask, atleast we never have seen them two in manga where Tobi wouldn't have his mask on.
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this page is gold. Toby says that he managed to keep few secrets from Itachi and if he wouldn't have then he would have ended up dead.
Itachi's ignorance on Tobi's identity was his biggest mistake. If he knew who he was and what abilities he had, he wouldn't have implanted Amataresu as it is obviosly useless against Tobi. Another one of your arguments is invalid.
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Why did Kisame bit his tongue in that exact moment? What secret does he knows that he was going to protect with his life? We never actually get to see what Kisame saw.
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"I am relieved. It will be easier for me to do my work with you pulling the strings. Mizukage.. I mean Madara."
Tobi approached Kisame and he recognized him. He then made a sarcastic remark about Tobi having multiple identities (Tobi, Mizukage, Madara).
At first people were saying that Tobi didn't want the world to know he's Madara but now we have found out that it's the opposite and he was using Madara's name and fame to lure out the Five Great shinobi villages in to a war. Why was he using his mask then? Why is he still using his mask? You see how much you contradict yourself here?
Btw, why do people use masks? To hide their true identity!
Why would Madara trust so much into some stranger?? Telling him almost all the critical info of Uchiha.
Why do you even think he knows of Madara's voice?
I went through the whole 5 kage summit arc and didn't see where would Onoki say that he personaly knew Madara or even fought him 1 on 1 to know his voice.
I know that somewhere in manga it was said or implied that Onoki fought Madara on one battlefield but that doesn't mean he heard his voice. Besides, that happened more than 80 years ago. How old would Onoki be by then? What's the chance that he would even recognize his voice? Tobi is senile, his voice should have changed from the time he was 30~ years old Madara.
And why wouldn't Madara say "our plan". Tobi clearly is another being. If there was a copy of you somewhere would you say us or we? 'Cause Tobi has his own will etc so that makes Madara recognize Tobi as "he".
Nice way to selfown you, I guess that's common for all Tobi=Madara fans. You say that Tobi has his own will, you even say he is another being by you still consider him as Madara? Where is the logic behind that? If it's another being then he's another being. Call him Tobi or Tobi Uchiha.
If you think he's just clone then he's just clone and nothing more.
Btw, while im on fire I guess I should own you a bit more.
You have one big flaw in that "Tobi split his body with same/similiar tech Muu used" theory. If he would have splitted himself than he would be as old and weak as real Madara, double as weak and old to be correct. They both should have died, not just real Madara. Madara was expecting to be ressurected so don't give me the bullsh that his split self killed him. Not only that but Kabuto shouldn't be able to summon Madara as his soul is still in impure world.
I am having hard time understanding what do you both stand for :
-I gave you reasons why Tobi can't be a split body of Madara.
-If it's Izanagi creation than it's a new, another being of it's own and therefore it's not Madara.
-It's not Zetsu either...
You guys haven't really figured out your theory till the end.
Conclusion = You're just sad, sad Madara=Tobi fanboys who can't accept the fact that Tobi is not Madara, even when disproven by Kishimoto.
tobi is not madara clearly when madara soul has returned to the world,tobiis not him also i don't rememnber the kyubii reconizing tobi chakra as madara at all.Tobi could just be a special zetsu clone or a past uchiha.
humiliate myself? lol Kiddo! You really do not want to start flame game with me. I have posted flames hardly 3-4 times but, when I do, I go all out. You won't find a place to hide.
copycat.
EMR is full of contradictions. He has made all kinds of theories in last two weeks including posting Tobi= Madara and Tobi=/=Madara. I don't know what he has been smoking.
It's not contradictions, this just shows that I am not biased and I can change my opinion if somebody makes a point.
Unlike you and the other bunch I am not a fanboy of any theory and If someone can prove me why Tobi is Obito with solid facts, logic and common sense I would even believe in something like that. I stick with the "Tobi=elder son" theory because it makes the most sense to me, unlike any other theory I have encountered in past two weeks. If someone can disprove it and give me a better theory then go ahead.
And I found it weired when a new members signs in at NB to make precisely 10 or less posts mostly in one thread only and to thank the OP and then stop all activity just like that.
Again, explain yourself. Don't remember if it was you or someone else who said that I just spit words out of my ass without proof or evidence but so far it seems you are doing it more proficiently than me or anyone else here.
As for flaming- I commented because you guys were starting to bore me with your silly cliche flames.
Get innovative. There are better insults to throw around if you must.
