Lee vs Hebi Sasuke

[Apêx1]

Huh?

No...It's a technique. A KKG one for that matter as I underlined. If it was just a reversal then it won't be classified...Sasuke reversed Itachi's Tsukoyomi, was that classified as a Jutsu? No. This case wasn't an ordinary one but a copy. Just like a smilier case of how Sasuke copies a section of Lee's Shadow of the dancing leaf and uses it to perfect his lion combo. Which was greatly emphasized here:

Thanks to the Sharingan's power, Itachi uses a similar technique.

A "similar technique" automatically made known that it's different which is why his Jutsu isn't called the same as Kurenai especially but a Genjutsu from the Sharingan. Not to mention it states it returns it back to the caster with a larger effect than anything else.



The bold...He cast the Jutsu with extra effects or so. Correct? Because the DB made it clear when it stated larger effects...So let's assume he copied it in a similar way to how he copied Shadow dancing leaf. Your points doesn't hold because he copied dancing leaf but then made it into something stronger hence the lion combo as a whole. Hence the reason why Kurenai's Jutsu isn't called the same as Itachi's.

@Underlined, If it wasn't cast by the Sharingan then it makes zero sense to classify it under a Kekkie Genkai technique which the Databook did. Shadow of the dancing leaf was copied but yet is this classified as KKG Technique? Is the name changed? It's only used as a stage for the final technique Lion Combo. Plus the fact that both Itachi and Kurenai have different names.

I looked at the DB and I saw the same with the one I posted as well. "KKK Genkai".




Flawed because every single scenario you've shown involves them going through pain before the Genjutsu is cast on them. If the Genjutsu is cast and they were in Pain then, that's different completely. The Konan was easily so I don't need to explain this one.

- B's scenario makes no sense especially seeing what occurs in the Genjutsu doesn't happen in reality. So you're telling me that B was in a Genjutsu but was still able to react and catch flamed shurikens in reality? How does that make sense? Of course it doesn't because that would mean it occurred before the Genjutsu or what happened occured inside the Genjutsu and not in reality because B won't be in control of himself in the real world. Second point is the fact that there was a hole slightly where B stood and you can also see the flamed shurikens if you look well closely on the ground..You see the hole behind B and also the flamed shuriken

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This scan was after Hachibi broke B out of the Genjutsu. This hole was created by the tentacles which came out of B after Itachi used the Shurikens. So it's safe to say the Genjutsu was used when B tied Itachi up otherwise there would be no need for a hole in the first place as that occurred inside the Genjutsu. But there's a hole after it so we conclude the flamed shurikens were used before the Genjutsu.

- Danzo's point as well...The Genjutsu was broken when they were stabbed but was only realized after though. Like I told you, what happens in a Genjutsu doesn't occur in reality hence Sasuke shouldn't be having a mark caused by Danzo if Danzo was in the Genjutsu. Middle left panel shows the stab really happened

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. So no it wasn't still a Genjutsu because what occurs in that world doesn't happen in reality.

No you're wrong. The Gates adds more pain to the previous pain. As seen with Lee's muscles getting ripped severely and marks and bleeding being caused newly even though he was in it already. As seen with how it states "his body continues to crumble". As seen with Gai stopping midway because of the pain his has to bear and get used to while being in this Gate. It creates more and more pain added on which is different from pain already being established before. Ribs being broken and stuff like that..When you're already in pain as in the examples you showed, that is you normal state in which you are caught. However when new Pain is being caused such as muscles ripping and things like that being newly brought in, that's an interference affecting you in the Genjutsu. Which is why some cannot hold the gate for long even though they are shown bearing the pain caused previously.



No you comparison is flawed. Summonings are clearly different and you ignored my point:

- When Genjutsu is being used on a beast, the sharingan's tomoe appears on the beast eye. However for humans it's different so you can't

Plus the DB comparison as well showing that it's 2 different things as shown with the glimpse part seen with Manda being compared to the Kyuubi and not humans. I don't need to respond to the Manda question as well when the Manga has already established everything for us. Not to mention your pain and lying point doesn't even sound right when Pain has been established as a viable method of breaking Genjutsu. You can't suggest it's not using summonings as a point when that makes zero sense given the fact that those are beast and are affected differently as seen with their eyes.



She slapping him was uncalled for which should be obvious. Not to mention Apex already made it clear that lying can affect your chakra. Not sure why a touch wouldn't so yes she slapping him or even touching him could be affecting his chakra regardless. Plus the fact that one should consider chakra being used as an interference was something stated by Jiraiya in reference to Genjutsu as a whole and not just the Sahringan. Hence why we've seen what I'm saying works.

Dude. How can you possibly still be trying to argue this. Lee uses gates>pain from gates from before during and after Gejnutsu. Konan stuck with rod, pain before during and after Genjutsu. You obviously avoided that one because you have no counter to it. There's more pain coming after you have a hole inside your stomach than the moment you get punctured. It's not like pain just goes away after you ave a hole in your stomach smh. That should've insta-broke Genjutsu. Just like Lee, he's in pain from the beginning, middle and end. THAT SIMPLE. I literally proved it, so I don't know why you're still going on here. Same with Danzo case, KG outlined it so I won't need to repeat it. And I will explain Genjutsu to you since you obviously don't understand it if you think it can only happen in an illusion world and not act as a continuation of the real world with variables manipulated by the caster.

You didn't understand the Bee point because you don't understand how Genjutsu works, you don't see the full picture behind Genjutsu. Clearly from what was said here; "like I told you, what happens in a Genjutsu doesn't occur in reality hence Sasuke shouldn't be having a mark caused by Danzo if Danzo was in the Genjutsu". Just like Sasuke has shown, you can continue the fight like it was normal and all IRL conditions and only change one factor. That's what Itachi did, Bee attacked Itachi and caught his illusionary self thinking that was Itachi, but it wasn't Itachi since that was Genjutsu. Your point about the hole proves my point, and if you look at the top right panels of the chapter you'll see Kishi clearly signifies that they are making eye contact as he zooms in both of their eyes-faces

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. That's where the Genjutsu happens, you can CLEARLY see that Itachi was behind the tentacle which created the hole

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on the top left panel so what Bee saw was not reality yet what he did was within the same reality. So yes, this point stands because Itachi had him in Genjutsu from beforehand and Katon Shurikens didn't affect the Genjutsu. JUST like Deidara vs Itachi

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. He was in Genjutsu from the very BEGINNING as stated. He was acting in real life while under Itachi's Genjutsu as shown with clay still being around him and almost killing himself, etc as stated as well

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, Genjutsu is not all illusions like Itachi vs Sasuke where nothing happens IRL, some of them can be a deviation from reality but still happen in the real world since Itachi/Sasuke is controlling what the mind does and does not see..

Hope you're joking about the Danzo point... It was very clearly a continuation of reality [

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].

 

[Haizaki]

No.

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That is a second or two after they stabbed each other.

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This is when Danzo realized that he was dying.

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This is when the Genjutsu was actually broken, hence Danzo's vision shifting to show what his actual eye looked at.

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Not sure what you are talking about with the underlined part. Genjutsu doesn't always have to make every aspect of the world false. It only manipulates the target's senses. Sasuke used the Genjutsu to leave everything the same except Danzo perceived his closed Izanagi eye as open.

Wait Danzo was in the Genjutsu when he was stabbed? Or when are you suggesting he was put in it?

I think it's most likely the fact that it occurred when he was stabbed.

Name: Genjutsu: Sharingan
Rating: Genjutsu, Kekkei Genkai,
Rank: ___ (no range)
Class: ___ (No Class)
Scope: ___ (No Scope)
User (s): Sasuke Uchiha

● Panel Legend:

Although it is not as strong as the Tsukuyomi, This is a technique of illusion that makes the best use of hypnotic ability Sharingan. In an instant, the target is displayed in a terrible illusion, completely taking away the control over his own body

So probably it was casted when they were stabbed. Because previously Sasuke already restrained him with the same Genjutsu and tried to stab him due to him not being able to move. I think the Genjutsu was broken as soon as Danzo realized he was dying but if Kurenai can simply break out of Itachi's Sharingan's Genjutsu by just biting her lips..I don't see why a stab won't do this trick.

As for the remaining, I just don't think it makes sense for Sasuke who has the Genjutsu power to control Danzo and restrict him to the extent where he can't move like he showed before and here when one completely stops their movement in the middle

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. Not sure why he'll still let himself get stabbed if he really cast the Genjutsu before the stabbing occurred when he had control over the chakra in his head. Very weird...Not to mention like I said, biting one's lip knocked her out the the Sharingan's Genjutsu.

@Apex, Really don't have the time especially against 2 individuals but once I can get this Danzo situation out of the way, the B one is cheap talk seeing twhat you're trying to say. The Konan one is entirely up to you..I don't have to brief you on that man because what I stated wasn't me avoiding anything

 

[KidGamer65]

Wait Danzo was in the Genjutsu when he was stabbed? Or when are you suggesting he was put it in?

I think it's most likely the fact that it occurred when he was stabbed.



So probably it was casted when they were stabbed. Because previously Sasuke already restrained him with the same Genjutsu and tried to stab him due to him not being able to move. I think the Genjutsu was broken as soon as Danzo realized he was dying but if Kurenai can simply break out of Itachi's Sharingan's Genjutsu by just biting her lips..I don't see why a stab won't do this trick.

As for the remaining, I just don't think it makes sense for Sasuke who has the Genjutsu power to control Danzo and restrict him to the extent where he can't move like he showed before and here when one completely stops their movement in the middle

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. Not sure why he'll still let himself get stabbed if he really cast the Genjutsu before the stabbing occurred when he had control over the chakra in his head. Very weird...Not to mention like I said, biting one's lip knocked her out the the Sharingan's Genjutsu.

@Apex, Really don't have the time especially against 2 individuals but once I can get this Danzo situation out of the way, the B one is cheap talk seeing twhat you're trying to say. The Konan one is entirely up to you..I don't have to brief you on that man because what I stated wasn't me avoiding anything

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1. Sasuke has one eye open and the image focuses on it.
2. Only time they make eye contact.

That is when he was put in the Genjutsu. It wouldn't make any sense at all to put him in Genjutsu when he got stabbed when Danzo only went for the mutual kill due to him thinking he had Izanagi active. Then we have the scan of Obito outright stating that Sasuke used the Genjutsu beforehand.

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And Itachi never cast Sharingan Genjutsu on Kurenai. He cast a jutsu with Sharingan that lets him basically remove the effects of the Genjutsu and then apply them to her. Also not sure what you are talking about with the underlined. Not all Genjutsu is used to restrain the target. He never used a binding Genjutsu on Danzo. The first Genjutsu was a Genjutsu that altered his perception by making him see the deceased Itachi, and the final Genjutsu was one that let him trick Danzo into seeing that he had an eye left.

And no, the Genjutsu was clearly broken in the panel I showed you as that is when Danzo saw that his eye wasn't open anymore.

KEKKEI GENKAI; Genjutsu; Magen: Kyou Tenchi Ten (Genjutsu; Demonic Illusion: Universe-Mirroring Reversal)
User: Uchiha Itachi
Supplementary; Close range; Rank: none

Main text

One decrypts a genjutsu that has been applied onto them, and casts back a jutsu with identical effects onto the opponent!! It's a form of illusion reversal, but in order to instantly read through a jutsu and cast it in return, the Sharingan's power is necessary. As genjutsu is initially used to confuse the enemy, this technique which sends it right back to its caster deals a high amount of mental damage, more than anything else. Every half-baked genjutsu will fall prey to the mirror that is Sharingan!!

The tech itself is KKG because it's a Sharingan jutsu, but that doesn't make it Sharingan Genjutsu. It's just Sharingan using a technique to send a foe's Genjutsu right back at them. Not sure what you were talking about either when you said Sasuke reversed Tsukuyomi. Sharingan Genjutsu>>>Kurenai's Genjutsu in strength. Pain can break Genjutsu in general, but it all depends on the strength of the Genjutsu in place. Reverse=/=Breaking the Genjutsu.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

Where did you get that from? That's your assumption...Plus Sakura even slapped him right after that too to get a hold of himself and in the next panel, a weird flash or something occurs

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. There was no chakra put into him from what we know.

That's your assumption.

Read my reply to Apex regarding genjutsu the reversal..Also make sure to read where I prove Genjutsu affects the senses and there zero reasons for me to believe why pain won't work when the Manga has shown this. Shikamaru breaking through Tayuya's with Pain as well. Kurenai breaking through with pain.




No it was a Sharingan Genjutsu:


It was a Sharingan Genjutsu as well and that was how it worked. Pain is a viable way of breaking a Genjutsu...Illusional techniques are usually the same but they affect different senses like Shikamru explained. My analysis:

[/SPOILER]

It works differently clearly for the summoning...Not to mention you are the one that needs to prove to me why they won't work differently when they are both different as a matter of fact. Reason being we've seen the effects on humans being broken easily and we've seen there are it's not the same.

- When Genjutsu is being used on a beast, the sharingan's tomoe appears on the beast eye. However for humans it's different.

- When humans are hit, they can be broken out of it. Look at my scan to BenjaminGaiye...Beast are different in this aspect.

- Read the bold and underlined in this spoiler...It only relates summoning. It relates the bold to the underline and both are beast. Why doesn't it relate humans?


They obviously work differently especially seen with the eye part.

I'm not trying to argue with this long ass essay. DJ already posted the scan of sakura and Chiyo breaking naruto out (not via slap)

And you yourself posted how genjutsu reversal works. Now unless you believe Kurenai can't break her own genjutsu my rebuttal still stands.

 

[Apêx1]

Wait Danzo was in the Genjutsu when he was stabbed? Or when are you suggesting he was put in it?

I think it's most likely the fact that it occurred when he was stabbed.



So probably it was casted when they were stabbed. Because previously Sasuke already restrained him with the same Genjutsu and tried to stab him due to him not being able to move. I think the Genjutsu was broken as soon as Danzo realized he was dying but if Kurenai can simply break out of Itachi's Sharingan's Genjutsu by just biting her lips..I don't see why a stab won't do this trick.

As for the remaining, I just don't think it makes sense for Sasuke who has the Genjutsu power to control Danzo and restrict him to the extent where he can't move like he showed before and here when one completely stops their movement in the middle

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. Not sure why he'll still let himself get stabbed if he really cast the Genjutsu before the stabbing occurred when he had control over the chakra in his head. Very weird...Not to mention like I said, biting one's lip knocked her out the the Sharingan's Genjutsu.

@Apex, Really don't have the time especially against 2 individuals but once I can get this Danzo situation out of the way, the B one is cheap talk seeing twhat you're trying to say. The Konan one is entirely up to you..I don't have to brief you on that man because what I stated wasn't me avoiding anything

VIZ scans of Obito telling us what happened;

Spoiler

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Spoiler

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So in terms of the chapter Genjutsu was cast on exactly this page

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. Bottom middle panel Danzo checks to see his arms eyes and it appears open, just like Obito states in the second linked VIZ I gave you on the top panel. That was signifying Danzo seeing the last eye still open. Several pages later Danzo looks down at his arm and realises he's still in Genjutsu even though the eye is open

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. Does this clear it up?

 

[Haizaki]

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1. Sasuke has one eye open and the image focuses on it.
2. Only time they make eye contact.

That is when he was put in the Genjutsu. It wouldn't make any sense at all to put him in Genjutsu when he got stabbed when Danzo only went for the mutual kill due to him thinking he had Izanagi active. Then we have the scan of Obito outright stating that Sasuke used the Genjutsu beforehand.

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And Itachi never cast Sharingan Genjutsu on Kurenai. He cast a jutsu with Sharingan that lets him basically remove the effects of the Genjutsu and then apply them to her. Also not sure what you are talking about with the underlined. Not all Genjutsu is used to restrain the target. He never used a binding Genjutsu on Danzo. The first Genjutsu was a Genjutsu that altered his perception by making him see the deceased Itachi, and the final Genjutsu was one that let him trick Danzo into seeing that he had an eye left.

And no, the Genjutsu was clearly broken in the panel I showed you as that is when Danzo saw that his eye wasn't open anymore.



The tech itself is KKG because it's a Sharingan jutsu, but that doesn't make it Sharingan Genjutsu. It's just Sharingan using a technique to send a foe's Genjutsu right back at them. Not sure what you were talking about either when you said Sasuke reversed Tsukuyomi. Sharingan Genjutsu>>>Kurenai's Genjutsu in strength. Pain can break Genjutsu in general, but it all depends on the strength of the Genjutsu in place. Reverse=/=Breaking the Genjutsu.

Oh okay I can agree with the bold especially because that's my point. Not to mention the fact that it was the Mangekyou Sharingan as well against Danzo which is stronger than the ordinary one which makes this more agreeable.

The part I disagree with is the aspect regarding the Jutsu:

KEKKEI GENKAI; Genjutsu; Magen: Kyou Tenchi Ten (Genjutsu; Demonic Illusion: Universe-Mirroring Reversal)
User: Uchiha Itachi
Supplementary; Close range; Rank: none

Main text

One decrypts a genjutsu that has been applied onto them, and casts back a jutsu with identical effects onto the opponent!! It's a form of illusion reversal, but in order to instantly read through a jutsu and cast it in return, the Sharingan's power is necessary. As genjutsu is initially used to confuse the enemy, this technique which sends it right back to its caster deals a high amount of mental damage, more than anything else. Every half-baked genjutsu will fall prey to the mirror that is Sharingan!!

Caption

-The mechanics of a false image is duplicated by these eyes, its effects largely turned back onto the enemy!!

Picture comments

-Conditions such as the presence or not of a Kekkei Genkai and the relative strength of both casters play a great part when operating this jutsu.

-Thanks to the Sharingan's power, Itachi uses a similar technique.

I don't get that part "It's just the Sharingan sending the foe's Genjutsu back to them" meaning it doesn't necessarily fall into the Sharingan's Genjutsu. Shouldn't it not matter though. Because of the bold especially. The technique holds a different name to that which Kurenai used. The technique itself is a Genjutsu and given the fact that it's executed via the Sharingan, it should definitely be classified under that Sharingan's Genjutsu. The technique itself is a Genjutsu and grants the user the power to reverse with larger effects. Ignore the Tsukoyomi part..I just stated that due to how Itachi fell down after his Jutsu was countered.

Look at the underlined as well.."Similar technique(Hence not the same)" "Higher mental damage than anything". Implying that it's different from the previous but then a new technique. The previous Jutsu is just a section to the technique itself.

 

[KidGamer65]

Oh okay I can agree with the bold especially because that's my point. Not to mention the fact that it was the Mangekyou Sharingan as well against Danzo which is stronger than the ordinary one which makes this more agreeable.

The part I disagree with is the aspect regarding the Jutsu:



I don't get that part "It's just the Sharingan sending the foe's Genjutsu back to them" meaning it doesn't necessarily fall into the Sharingan's Genjutsu. Shouldn't it not matter though. Because of the bold especially. The technique holds a different name to that which Kurenai used. The technique itself is a Genjutsu and given the fact that it's executed via the Sharingan, it should definitely be classified under that Sharingan's Genjutsu. The technique itself is a Genjutsu and grants the user the power to reverse with larger effects. Ignore the Tsukoyomi part..I just stated that due to how Itachi fell down after his Jutsu was countered.

Look at the underlined as well.."Similar technique(Hence not the same)" "Higher mental damage than anything". Implying that it's different from the previous but then a new technique. The previous Jutsu is just a section to the technique itself.

Yeah, actually you are right here. If it's Itachi copying the Genjutsu and then using it himself, and since he's >>Kurenai and using it via Sharingan it should be stronger than normal.

 

[Apêx1]

Oh okay I can agree with the bold especially because that's my point. Not to mention the fact that it was the Mangekyou Sharingan as well against Danzo which is stronger than the ordinary one which makes this more agreeable.

The part I disagree with is the aspect regarding the Jutsu:



I don't get that part "It's just the Sharingan sending the foe's Genjutsu back to them" meaning it doesn't necessarily fall into the Sharingan's Genjutsu. Shouldn't it not matter though. Because of the bold especially. The technique holds a different name to that which Kurenai used. The technique itself is a Genjutsu and given the fact that it's executed via the Sharingan, it should definitely be classified under that Sharingan's Genjutsu. The technique itself is a Genjutsu and grants the user the power to reverse with larger effects. Ignore the Tsukoyomi part..I just stated that due to how Itachi fell down after his Jutsu was countered.

Look at the underlined as well.."Similar technique(Hence not the same)" "Higher mental damage than anything". Implying that it's different from the previous but then a new technique. The previous Jutsu is just a section to the technique itself.

Yeah, actually you are right here. If it's Itachi copying the Genjutsu and then using it himself, and since he's >>Kurenai and using it via Sharingan it should be stronger than normal.

Doesn't change the fact that Gates can't break out of normal 3T Genjutsu though, based on all the examples I gave.

 

[madvictory]

Lee. He cut Madara in half with a single kick (and don't even get started with the "he was trying to control the Juubi's power" shenanigans).

 

[Lord Tywin]

Orochimaru came out of genjutsu when Itachi cut his arm though

 

[Apêx1]

Orochimaru came out of genjutsu when Itachi cut his arm though

He lost an arm, so the pain is obviously far greater. Gates does not cause anywhere near such levels of pain, nor does it cause pain comparable to having a hole in your stomach which canonically did not break Genjutsu.

 

[Lord Tywin]

He lost an arm, so the pain is obviously far greater. Gates does not cause anywhere near such levels of pain, nor does it cause pain comparable to having a hole in your stomach which canonically did not break Genjutsu.

The pain is extreme though. The gates destroy the body from within, so there is nothing to say the pain from the gates can't break Lee out of genjutsu

And then there is a matter of Gai being Lee's teacher. He definitely taught Lee how to fight Sharingan for its genjutsu.

 

[Apêx1]

The pain is extreme though. The gates destroy the body from within, so there is nothing to say the pain from the gates can't break Lee out of genjutsu

And then there is a matter of Gai being Lee's teacher. He definitely taught Lee how to fight Sharingan for its genjutsu.

Again, if you want to suggest Gates can break out of it you'll need to tell me why Gates inflict more pain than having a hole in your stomach after being pierced by a rod. Do you think Lee could fight normally if he had a hole in his stomach by tolerating the pain like he tolerates the 6th Gate's pain? The answer is obviously "no" and thus the pain of having a hole in you>pain from Gates. Simple as that.

Baseless claim is baseless, being his teacher doesn't mean he taught Lee everything he can possibly do. Some things come with experience, and Gai only learned to do this because Kakashi was his rival.

 

[Lord Tywin]

Again, if you want to suggest Gates can break out of it you'll need to tell me why Gates inflict more pain than having a hole in your stomach after being pierced by a rod. Do you think Lee could fight normally if he had a hole in his stomach by tolerating the pain like he tolerates the 6th Gate's pain? The answer is obviously "no" and thus the pain of having a hole in you>pain from Gates. Simple as that.

"small hole". And the fourth gate is called "Gate of Pain". Lee was having his muscles ripped, which is>>The hole you're talking about

Baseless claim is baseless, being his teacher doesn't mean he taught Lee everything he can possibly do. Some things come with experience, and Gai only learned to do this because Kakashi was his rival.

Wtf? He literally taught Lee everything he knew. Refer to Lee vs Sasuke, where Lee had info on sharingan. Obviously getting it from Gai. It would be stupid to say Gai didn't teach Lee how to fight how he fights sharingan.

 

[Apêx1]

"small hole". And the fourth gate is called "Gate of Pain". Lee was having his muscles ripped, which is>>The hole you're talking about

You are truly a retard if you believe ripping your muscle is anywhere NEAR comparable to literally having a hole inside your stomach. The ripping of muscles is not as painful as you think it is, people rip their pecs and biceps all the time and while they obviously feel pain, it's not excruciating pain. Having a hole in your stomach is definitely going to make you pass out unless you have an unearthly pain tolerance. Also, you CLEARLY don't understand how Gates work at all if you think Gat of Pain rips muscles by default. His muscles snapped mid-way through his usage of 5th Gates

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which is when he reached his limit. He'd been experiencing pain for a long time before that that was not due to muscles ripping, but rather strain

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. Lee can use 6 Gates in War Arc and then fight normally after that because he did not rip his muscles at all, we've already seen (in the case that you do actually read this manga) how Gai looks after all his muscles rip

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. Was Lee like that after using 6 Gates in the War Arc? Nope. Was Gai like that after using 6 Gates? Nope. Because they didn't reach their limit, only when you reach your limit do you become like that. Strain<<<<<<<hole in your stomach<<damage needed for Genjutsu to be broken. So I'll ask the question again, what proof do you have that Gates will be break out of Genjutsu given someone with a hole in their stomach did not phase the Genjutsu.

Wtf? He literally taught Lee everything he knew. Refer to Lee vs Sasuke, where Lee had info on sharingan. Obviously getting it from Gai. It would be stupid to say Gai didn't teach Lee how to fight how he fights sharingan.

Bring me the page which says that he taught him everything he knows/does. And again, completely baseless and unsubstantiated claims. EDUCATING Lee on the Sharingan, Byakugan, etc is one thing. Teachng him how to fight against it is a completely different thing. It takes training and experience to do what Gai could do, Lee has NONE of that until you bring me proof that he does. Won't be replying if you come here without a single evidence supporting your argument. Your mere opinion is totally irrelevant to me and everyone else, either support your point substantially or GTFO.

 

[Dreamland]

Sasuke can one shot with genjutsu.

 

[Lord Tywin]

You are truly a retard if you believe ripping your muscle is anywhere NEAR comparable to literally having a hole inside your stomach. The ripping of muscles is not as painful as you think it is, people rip their pecs and biceps all the time and while they obviously feel pain, it's not excruciating pain. Having a hole in your stomach is definitely going to make you pass out unless you have an unearthly pain tolerance. Also, you CLEARLY don't understand how Gates work at all if you think Gat of Pain rips muscles by default. His muscles snapped mid-way through his usage of 5th Gates

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which is when he reached his limit. He'd been experiencing pain for a long time before that that was not due to muscles ripping, but rather strain

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. Lee can use 6 Gates in War Arc and then fight normally after that because he did not rip his muscles at all, we've already seen (in the case that you do actually read this manga) how Gai looks after all his muscles rip

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. Was Lee like that after using 6 Gates in the War Arc? Nope. Was Gai like that after using 6 Gates? Nope. Because they didn't reach their limit, only when you reach your limit do you become like that. Strain<<<<<<<hole in your stomach<<damage needed for Genjutsu to be broken. So I'll ask the question again, what proof do you have that Gates will be break out of Genjutsu given someone with a hole in their stomach did not phase the Genjutsu.



Bring me the page which says that he taught him everything he knows/does. And again, completely baseless and unsubstantiated claims. EDUCATING Lee on the Sharingan, Byakugan, etc is one thing. Teachng him how to fight against it is a completely different thing. It takes training and experience to do what Gai could do, Lee has NONE of that until you bring me proof that he does. Won't be replying if you come here without a single evidence supporting your argument. Your mere opinion is totally irrelevant to me and everyone else, either support your point substantially or GTFO.

ok, geez.:lol

 

[Haizaki]

Damn that postgrad life not giving me the time. Sorry man...Got it on lock now.

Doesn't change the fact that Gates can't break out of normal 3T Genjutsu though, based on all the examples I gave.

No...I'll just leave out the Konan point since you wouldn't agree to it anyways and you do believe it took 8 panels for Hachibi to break B out of a 3T Genjutsu? When it took less to break out against the likes of Sasuke's MS Genjutsu? This part:

Your point about the hole proves my point, and if you look at the top right panels of the chapter you'll see Kishi clearly signifies that they are making eye contact as he zooms in both of their eyes-faces

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. That's where the Genjutsu happens

No. Because Itachi especially just released Shurikens and flames which even blocked B's vision or had his attention rather than him making eye contact with Itachi in the previous panel. Especially when you have assumed that was when the Genjutsu took place which could have been a bit further after the flames shrines hit. The Genjutsu may have happened in the panel after that catch. Doesn't make any sense that Kurenai can break out of a 3T Genjutsu like that which dents your point. Your scan solely focuses on the eyes which doesn't mean it was dropped at that point because I've seen other scans that have focused on the eyes solely but a Genjutsu wasn't dropped in the end. If you look at your scan, there's a symbol mark next to B's face as well in the panel where you talk about the eyes. Just like there were symbols on his hands when the Shurikens hit his partially transformed hand. No proof of a Genjutsu until then. Dragging this is pointless to me because it doesn't sound right when you look at the Kurenai case.

I've shown Kurenai biting her lips being able to break 3T Itachi's Genjutsu which is either stronger or at least equivalent to Sasuke's 3T Genjutsu. Zero reasons for me to believe otherwise and hence the Gates break Lee out. If you want to use this feat of Konan which has been addressed and pain wasn't initiated while it was in the Genjutsu, refer to the fact that it was Obito who had the power to control Bijuu with his eyes as a kid. Not Sasuke's feat so abiding by this won't even make a difference really.

Genjutsu can either be binding or not and people realize when they are in this form of Genjutsu as seen with B

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. He couldn't move his body as well and he realized this was a binding Genjutsu there. Same with C. Lee can realize this like they did and break it with the gates which grants ridiculous amount of power to overcome the Genjutsu in a scenario where this happens. He can't move his body but he can definitely activate and reactivate it.

- Sasuke can have Lee think otherwise but that's not a wise decision because he can transition in between the Gates or even go on and off anytime which would break this control. Not to mention with intel, Lee can make sure to use this method every time he makes eye contact with Sasuke just as a precaution and of course he breaks out easily since Sasuke can only cast one when they make eye contact. Of course he doesn't make eye contact with him all the time seeing as several opponents who battled Sasuke weren't caught multiple times in a Genjutsu. Not to mention Lee's speed and style

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as well and the fact that he was trained by Gai himself who uses this art and Lee also has intel on the Sharingan..Even before he encountered it in battle and considering the fact Gai wanted him to progress so badly, not sure why he'll teach him about it but not teach him how to battle it when he knows Kakashi's students has this ability. Not sure why he won't be ready for this when he already took him on in battle already. Just like for example Ay due to speed and Kakashi due to Gai's intel avoided being caught in a Genjutsu let alone those being trained under the principle of Gai strictly and given the fact that he went to the Chunnin exams and even knew about the Sharingan beforehand as shown, I have reasons to believe he has been trained under Gai well enough to evade it. You keep saying to others "Proof of Gai training Lee" but that's ridiculous because we only saw Gai tell Kakashi and not train him. One can reasonable deduce Kakashi being able to do this was due to him fighting his young rival all the time hence him understanding the style. Him knowing how to open the first gate? It's obviously clear that Lee shouldn't have a problem here.

Not to mention one thing that I can easily use against your Konan post is the fact that Shikamaru broke his finger to break through Tayuya's Genjutsu but even with that pain, he still stated if they hear it again, they'll be caught in it despite already feeling Pain before it. Tayuya still attempted it again even knowing he was in pain already. Genjutsu isn't an easy feat...It's only when one looks at the eyes for a certain time considering the Genjutsu would have to be ready. Which is why sometimes when eye contact is made(As seen with Ay), Genjutsu isn't used on him because it wasn't prepared. Lee is fast and catching someone with non linear movements like that in a Genjutsu is extremely difficult.

Spoiler

@Your respone to Kratos though...You only showed him this part:

He'd been experiencing pain for a long time before that that was not due to muscles ripping, but rather strain

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This wasn't due to to gates especially when he hadn't opened it but due to the extra kicks as stated and the fact that Gaara was much heavier based on him not even going further in the air. That's what was causing the pain and making him stop midway. Lee hadn't open the first gate until the middle panel which shows the focus on him

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. Just like against Sasuke when he kicked him up once and resorted to dancing of the leaf shadow. He hadn't opened the first gate yet until he decided to attempt the lotus which was why Sasuke could copy that without opening the first gate despite it being stated the initial lotus is done by opening the first and how is Sasuke going to copy a section of it when he isn't in the gate? No. That's a different technique.

- The 5th Gate is the gate of limit naturally as the name goes so I'm not sure why you tried to use that scan to prove your point? Not to mention, how you gonna ask him "Was Gai like that" "Was Lee like that"..Gai's limit is the 8th. You show us a scan of Lee's muscles ripping while in the 5th and claim because he was at his limit but then show us a scan of Gai few pages after his "limit" which you claim and then suggest this was caused due to him being in his limit? How? When he was still up an battling Kisame both in the 7th and Base after Hirudora in the 7th? No. What you showed us was Gai not being able to move an inch due to this happening but then we have Gai at his limit stated by Hachibi in the war being able to unlock the 7th and use Hirudora again. Plus Gaiu being able to battle Madara in the 7th after not being able to stand properly before that as shown with Lee and the others? Different things are caused by the Gates..Broken ribs or whatever damage done during the period of being in the Gates..It just does massive damage to the body. That's what I'll stand by.

 

[Apêx1]

Damn that postgrad life not giving me the time. Sorry man...Got it on lock now.



No...I'll just leave out the Konan point since you wouldn't agree to it anyways and you do believe it took 8 panels for Hachibi to break B out of a 3T Genjutsu? When it took less to break out against the likes of Sasuke's MS Genjutsu? This part:

Np bro.

Itachi's genjutsu was a simulation of irl and Sasuke's was very obviously genjutsu given the spikes he made. Hachibi needs to know about Genjutsu before he breaks Bee out of it, hence he didn't do it versus Itachi until they could find out.. Unless you're implying Hachibi can see Bee's chakra flow or something, which makes no sense. Hachibi is only as knowledgeable as Bee is when it comes to being within a Genjutsu.

No. Because Itachi especially just released Shurikens and flames which even blocked B's vision or had his attention rather than him making eye contact with Itachi in the previous panel. Especially when you have assumed that was when the Genjutsu took place which could have been a bit further after the flames shrines hit. The Genjutsu may have happened in the panel after that catch. Doesn't make any sense that Kurenai can break out of a 3T Genjutsu like that which dents your point. Your scan solely focuses on the eyes which doesn't mean it was dropped at that point because I've seen other scans that have focused on the eyes solely but a Genjutsu wasn't dropped in the end. If you look at your scan, there's a symbol mark next to B's face as well in the panel where you talk about the eyes. Just like there were symbols on his hands when the Shurikens hit his partially transformed hand. No proof of a Genjutsu until then. Dragging this is pointless to me because it doesn't sound right when you look at the Kurenai case.

It wouldn't make sense for Genjutsu to have occurred after that because Bee's hand was clearly blocking LoS between them

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. But if you want ignore this paragraph since there's always a possibility that Genjutsu happened at a different time (or you can keep reading, doesn't matter as it doesn't affect the main point). Bee and Itachi are shown to make eye contact here and it's pretty obvious that it happened right on the top of the page

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. It's not like they were shown with their full head or their body/location, etc. It was clearly signifying their eyes making eye-contact. This

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doesn't in any way block any form of eye contact. Bold is wrong and it does not dent my point at all. He merely used a weak Genjutsu and thus the chakra needed is far lower. The more chakra used, the more chakra disruption is needed as per Jiraiya's own words (I linked this before). You need to overpower the control, and the control has not been overpowered by things such as C0 on Manda, Konan hole in her stomach, Kyuubi taking damage and Danzo's occasion. Those are the indubitable main ones. So even if you want to believe Genjutsu happened at a different moment, which is possible (unlikely but obviously you could potentially be right, I'm not Kishi) you can't really disprove the 4 situations there.

I've shown Kurenai biting her lips being able to break 3T Itachi's Genjutsu which is either stronger or at least equivalent to Sasuke's 3T Genjutsu. Zero reasons for me to believe otherwise and hence the Gates break Lee out. If you want to use this feat of Konan which has been addressed and pain wasn't initiated while it was in the Genjutsu, refer to the fact that it was Obito who had the power to control Bijuu with his eyes as a kid. Not Sasuke's feat so abiding by this won't even make a difference really.

Uh, no. That was a Genjutsu used to recreate the one Kurenai made and it was ridiculously weak. It was used through the Sharingan but it doesn't make it anywhere near comparable to a regular Sharingan Genjutsu hence it's breakable by chakra disturbance as little as a lip bleeding. The greater the pain the greater the disturbance in chakra yet a lip bite can cause enough disruption to break actual Sharingan Genjutsu? Yea, no. By your logic, Oro could've bit his lip here and broke 13 year old Itachi's Genjutsu

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but that's obviously NOT how it works. Or merely, a small amount of Kai chakra would break out since only a small amount of chakra disruption is needed, right? Kurenai broke out of an illusion via lip bitting because the power of that Genjutsu was weak. And why do you keep saying bold? It literally makes no sense at all. Gates pain is NOT initiated during Genjutsu, it's initiated before Genjutsu is used because Lee needs to stay in 6G the entire time if he wants to stand a chance here. It's simply a continuous pain JUST LIKE having a hole in your stomach. No idea how the red is supposed to make sense either, Obito being able to control Kurama with Genjutsu doesn't mean his Genjutsu is exclusive. Also, pain is not a constant in the first place, pain fluctuates tremendously, so chakra disruption would occur either way. And don't deviate from your argument, which is 3T Genjutsu can be countered by lip biting. Obito's Genjutsu stalemated with KAKASHI'S. So now Kakashi>Itachi in Genjutsu? Uh, definitely not. That's exactly why he had a consistent '4' in all 3 databooks, meaning there's absolutely no reason to believe he's anywhere near comparable to Itachi Genjutsu wise. Therefor my point stands strongly because Obito's Genjutsu is not stronger than Itachi's yet Konan wasn't broken out of Genjutsu by having a hole in her stomach.

Genjutsu can either be binding or not and people realize when they are in this form of Genjutsu as seen with B

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. He couldn't move his body as well and he realized this was a binding Genjutsu there. Same with C. Lee can realize this like they did and break it with the gates which grants ridiculous amount of power to overcome the Genjutsu in a scenario where this happens. He can't move his body but he can definitely activate and reactivate it.

People who don't have bad chakra control don't break Genjutsu like you are suggesting. Only top tiers resist it like that. We have aldready seen how the person you yourself mentioned, Cee [skilled Genjutsu user], collapsed to the ground from Genjutsu. Cee literally collapsed within seconds

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. Also Evani, why are you acting like Sasuke would allow him to think freely? Everybody knows about Lee's inability to use chakra properly. What if Sasuke does this type of Genjutsu on him where he gets to control Lee

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How will he resist seeing how he won't have the ability to break out via Gates? You do know that Genjutsu can literally control people right? Lee is a very easy target for such a Genjutsu, and he won't be able to do anything about it.

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- Sasuke can have Lee think otherwise but that's not a wise decision because he can transition in between the Gates or even go on and off anytime which would break this control. Not to mention with intel, Lee can make sure to use this method every time he makes eye contact with Sasuke just as a precaution. Of course he doesn't make eye contact with him all the time seeing as several opponents who battled Sasuke weren't caught multiple times in a Genjutsu. Not to mention Lee's speed and style

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as well and the fact that he was trained by Gai himself who uses this art and Lee also has intel on the Sharingan..Even before he encountered it in battle and considering the fact Gai wanted him to progress so badly, not sure why he'll teach him about it but not teach him how to battle it when he knows Kakashi's students has this ability. Not sure why he won't be ready for this when he already took him on in battle already. Just like for example Ay due to speed and Kakashi due to Gai's intel avoided being caught in a Genjutsu let alone those being trained under the principle of Gai strictly and given the fact that he went to the Chunnin exams and even knew about the Sharingan beforehand as shown, I have reasons to believe he has been trained under Gai well enough to evade it. You keep saying to others "Proof of Gai training Lee" but that's ridiculous because we only saw Gai tell Kakashi and not train him. One can reasonable deduce Kakashi being able to do this was due to him fighting his young rival all the time hence him understanding the style. Him knowing how to open the first gate? It's obviously clear that Lee shouldn't have a problem here.

Who has battled Sasuke and not been caught when Sasuke intended to use Genjutsu? I don't recall at all. If you're referring to Deidara, he did get caught but could brak out due to training his eye. He still got caught though. Danzo got caught TWICE. Bee got caught. Cee got caught and so did Orochimaru. One Genjutsu is all that's needed and it's definitely happening. Your point about speed is irrelevant because Sasuke can see him just fine at all times. If he was going out of his vision like he was doing to others in the Chunin exams you'd be right, but he isn't. Plus, in CQC Chidori Nagashi stuns Lee without intel and Genjutsu is easily catching him at that moment. Everything about Lee being about Lee training to fight the Sharingan is completely unsubstantiated speculation. He's merely informed about it as far as I am concerned, there's literally nothing that will support the notion that he knows how to fight against it. You can claim this all day but at the end of the day it's baseless conjecture with nothing at all backing it up but your opinion. It's not probable in the first place, let alone proven beyond reasonable doubt like all speculation should be before it's even relevant.

Not to mention one thing that I can easily use against your Konan post is the fact that Shikamaru broke his finger to break through Tayuya's Genjutsu but even with that pain, he still stated if they hear it again, they'll be caught in it despite already feeling Pain before it. Tayuya still attempted it again even knowing he was in pain already.

Then Gates will not affect genjutsu either if you want to take this route, because the Gates does pain continuously just like having a broken finger continuously hurting you and having a hole in your stomach continuously hurting you. But, as I have suggested before, it doesn't matter because breaking your finger wouldn't affect Sharingan in the first place since having a hole in your stomach doesn't affect the Genjutsu in both Konan and Danzo's case. So since Gates does not inflict enough pain it won't even matter.

@Your respone to Kratos though...You only showed him this part:



This wasn't due to to gates especially when he hadn't opened it but due to the extra kicks as stated and the fact that Gaara was much heavier based on him not even going further in the air. That's what was causing the pain and making him stop midway. Lee hadn't open the first gate until the middle panel which shows the focus on him

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. Just like against Sasuke when he kicked him up once and resorted to dancing of the leaf shadow. He hadn't opened the first gate yet until he decided to attempt the lotus which was why Sasuke could copy that without opening the first gate despite it being stated the initial lotus is done by opening the first and how is Sasuke going to copy a section of it when he isn't in the gate? No. That's a different technique.

True. Although Gai states the kicks are merely dangerous for Lee

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but he says in the same panel that the lotus is self-damaging. Danger is potential, it's not a guarantee. Self-damaging is a guarantee so it's not wrong to suggest he stopped because of the technique being used.

- The 5th Gate is the gate of limit naturally as the name goes so I'm not sure why you tried to use that scan to prove your point? Not to mention, how you gonna ask him "Was Gai like that" "Was Lee like that"..Gai's limit is the 8th. You show us a scan of Lee's muscles ripping while in the 5th and claim because he was at his limit but then show us a scan of Gai few pages after his "limit" which you claim and then suggest this was caused due to him being in his limit? How? When he was still up an battling Kisame both in the 7th and Base after Hirudora in the 7th? No. What you showed us was Gai not being able to move an inch due to this happening but then we have Gai at his limit stated by Hachibi in the war being able to unlock the 7th and use Hirudora again. Plus Gaiu being able to battle Madara in the 7th after not being able to stand properly before that as shown with Lee and the others? Different things are caused by the Gates..Broken ribs or whatever damage done during the period of being in the Gates..It just does massive damage to the body. That's what I'll stand by.

No idea what you're on about here. His muscles snapped and Lee was basically dying from pain

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and screaming

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. So it definitely counters the notion that he can fight normally while his muscles are ripping. Gai's Gat limit being the 8th means NOTHING whatsoever. He can reach his physical limit in lower Gates if he uses them for too long and that in turn will rip his muscles too. Yamato states all his muscle fibers have been ripped to shreds

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so it's a fact. THAT is his limit, using 7th Gate is NOT his limit in terms of physical capacity to maintain it. Unless he uses it for long he won't shred his muscles. Gai's body was not shredded by Gates when Hachibi said Gai was at his limit so I have no idea how you can even relate these two completely irrelevant things. Gai was literally fighting a few chapters later

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so obviously his muscles were not shredded as they were vs Kisame. The two instances in which muscles were ripped apart were the ones I posted with Lee and Gai and we see in both that they are dying from pain. 6th Gate does no instantly destroy muscles, that's a baseless claim. I showed you how both Lee and Gai look after their muscles are torn apart and in both instances they shit themselves. Saying Lee is able to fight with composure while all his muscles are shredded is nothing but a fan-fic.

 

[Haizaki]

Don't want you to ignore point at all:

"Sasuke can have Lee think otherwise but that's not a wise decision because he can transition in between the Gates or even go on and off anytime which would break this control. Not to mention with intel, Lee can make sure to use this method every time he makes eye contact with Sasuke just as a precaution and of course he breaks out easily since Sasuke can only cast one when they make eye contact"

You can't really do so because you almost conceded here:

Then Gates will not affect genjutsu either if you want to take this route, because the Gates does pain continuously just like having a broken finger continuously hurting you and having a hole in your stomach continuously hurting you. But, as I have suggested before, it doesn't matter because breaking your finger wouldn't affect Sharingan in the first place since having a hole in your stomach doesn't affect the Genjutsu in both Konan and Danzo's case. So since Gates does not inflict enough pain it won't even matter

And no don't even bother using Danzo's point as that was a Mangekyou powered Genjutsu...Not the 3T. Moot point considering I already debunked the fact that initiating pain can break one while in the Genjutsu unlike already initiating while in it..That Shika point showed this and Kurenai bit. Plus I saw your point about the Kurenai which was already confirmed..Read here:

Yeah, actually you are right here. If it's Itachi copying the Genjutsu and then using it himself, and since he's >>Kurenai and using it via Sharingan it should be stronger than normal.

Hence it having a name and being stated to have much larger effects. If you're still arguing this then I don't feel like continuing. Oh and you said something "Intended to use a Genjutsu" which reminds me of what I stated:

"Genjutsu isn't an easy feat...It's only when one looks at the eyes for a certain time considering the Genjutsu would have to be ready beforehand or during that period as one can easily switch their point of focus from that direction but is it possible to have it at the exact period given the fact that it needs to be ready during that time? Chakra build up? The opponent not anticipating the other's focus point or even being prepared when they actually look? Sometimes when eye contact is made(As seen with Ay looking at Sasukes eyes telling him how inferior his Genjutsu is and yet not getting caught) and other scenarios where not just eye contact is needed but actually casting it for example (Middle panel)

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,

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, Genjutsu isn't used on Ay because it wasn't prepared at that point. Lee is fast and catching someone with non linear movements like that in a Genjutsu is extremely difficult because Lee's movement won't be linear making it easy for him to not to get caught in it as him changing positions isn't a thing due to his style of fighting(Bottom especially)

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Sasuke would need to prep his Genjutsu but doing that and tracking an individual isn't an easy feat hence Sasuke not using a Genjutsu on B while using his Sword Dance but rather when he resorts to a straight line movement given Sasuke time to put him in this"


As for the Kurenai situation..Please bro, if it was weak why would Itachi be praising her?

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. Not to mention you call it a weak Genjutsu when from the beginning, Kurenai has a 5 in all 3 databooks superior to Sasuke and has been stated to have equal Genjutsu skills with Itachi:

Spoiler

Databook 2 - Yuuhi Kurenai:
Yuuhi Kurenai Jounin Pg.163

Ninja Registration: 010881
Birthday: June 11th (28 Gemini)
Height: 169.1cm weight: 54.4kg, b/t: AB
Personality: Unyielding, honest and simple
Likes: Soju, Vodka, salted Octopus, Taking a glass of wine at night(or dinner)
Dislikes: Cake
Specialties: Types of Genjutsu

The peaceful Kunoichi who combines wit and beauty, leads astray with her Genjutsu
The Kunoichi has a firm aloofness...and is referred to as 'image', Kakashi's banter causes her cheeks to blush, making her
unexpectedly except her usual purity. She excels in genjutsu, catching Itachi with it, a game between their equal genjutsu
skills developed.

You're claiming it was weak? Even when copied and created into a new technique which was stronger given the user and the Sharingan's power? Bro please. Let's not use this claim. Also, Orochimaru not doing so was because he probably wasn't as knowledgeable as Kurenai in the art or probably because it was a binding Genjutsu with him not being able to move. But whatever because that's not applicable seeing how he tried something different and didn't use that method to show it won't work. Not to mention it was broken seeing how he could move his arm and change his leg positions once Itachi cut his hand of even though it was a binding Genjutsu

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B and C could not being able to move their body at all in the real so I don't believe Orochimaru could in the real.

The Genjutsu regarding the guard isn't different...It only shows him making the guard do what he wants which is another style but not something that cannot be broken otherwise I'm not sure why that's not been a GG in all cases where it could be employed. The guard could do so because he couldn't break it and we know so because the individuals faced with it had no means of breaking it. Nothing suggesting it's different to others except the style of the Genjutsu due to the control. Plus he only showed this with the Manegkyou twice but doesn't change the fact that it's still the same but a different style. Sasuke can make Lee do what he wants but Lee still has his own mind which is being manipulated as that's the aim of a Genjutsu which he can via the gates, break free with the precaution method. If he can't break free then he gets controlled. If this was a viable method, it would have been used against those individuals to end them but it's pretty useless because it's no different. Oh and that's Itachi as the scan states not Sasuke. Not that this matters anyways and Itachi himself states every jutsu has a weakness so there's no way one won't be able to do this which would be an automatic loss if it was totally different because it goes against the main aim of a Genjutsu and the appropriate counters to it as stated by the manga

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. One can act of course as long but would fall prey if they can't break it.

Obito's Genjutsu stalemated with KAKASHI'S. So now Kakashi>Itachi in Genjutsu? Uh, definitely not. That's exactly why he had a consistent '4' in all 3 databooks, meaning there's absolutely no reason to believe he's anywhere near comparable to Itachi Genjutsu wise. Therefor my point stands strongly because Obito's Genjutsu is not stronger than Itachi's yet Konan wasn't broken out of Genjutsu by having a hole in her stomach.

Sharingan Genjutsu cancels the other especially seeing as both opponents have the same eyes..The only thing stated to be canceled by the same blood was Tsukoyomi from what I remember. The bold? No I didn't state so but if that's what it boils down to then so be it. Not to mention in part one Itachi bested Kakashi with his MS vs his 3T. Yet he praised Kakashi several times in that fight regarding his eye prowess and so did Deidara compare his eye prowess stating it was as good as Itachi from what I recall. Can't find the scan currently but yes he did.

This scan is what basically implies that Tsukoyomi is what trumps and nothing else

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"However it has a special eye jutsu" after stating some resistance could be made to his MS asides Tsukoyomi and that was a basic 3T against Itachi. No reason for me to believe he won't counter him with his eyes or so...Burden on you to prove me wrong. Not "Uh, no definitely not" with no proof. Kakashi did it and I have zero reasons to believe otherwise.

Either way, I've already shown why it's all useless based on that Shika/Tayuya point and Hence the eye contact precaution. If I've shown breaking a finger(Initiating the pain) can snap one out of the Jutsu while in it but having the Pain before the Genjutsu won't break you out, why argue when the 3T shows supporting evidence(Kurenai breaking out while in it). More than clear. However, Lee's case isn't even a strong case of solely pain alone. It's the fact that I've shown the precaution argument and the fact that once he does that, the Gates releases and increases the power which automatically breaks through Sasuke's control due to employing more power:

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Yes he breaks out without a doubt. The points I've given are more than enough of anyone reads them. It's clear Lee can get out of this or evade it. Not an issue.

Spoiler

As for the Gates..I don't want to go into much discussion as it's just too much to drag but no, your point is false. Lee's muscles ripped while in the gates before finishing his technique that one couldn't even tell what's happening and that would rip him that much? Despite not being held for a minute probably. If it was so fast for one not to tell, so fast that Gaara's sand couldn't react and the 5th gate is only opened for the final hit? His muscles tore as he was opening the 5th for the final punch. Look again

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..He completed 2 powerful hits with a torn muscle? In mid air? Gai as well fighting with broken ribs and a broken left arm as shown with him being on the ground and then continuing his fight with Madara which should even do more damage to his body but yet still fighting. No reason to believe otherwise because your scan only shows them facing the after effect of the gates. Not them being unable to fight due to those circumstances. Gai was at his limit already so you tell me why unlocking the Gates and using AT which he did once while exhausted previously to the extent where he couldn't stand as seen with Lee and Ten Ten..That did so much damage to him already before Madara, encountering him with the 7th and then the 8th..Tell me why this won't even do worse than the condition he was in. I don't think I even want to drag this further. It's more than clear the damage done their body is ridiculous already.

- Couldn't stand well because his body couldn't keep up and he was way to weak

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- Got knocked down again and look at the damage done to the ground

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- Still in the Gates while saving Kakashi
- Unlocks the 7th with did that damage to him you claim later and battled Madara while using AT
- Was knocked down and hd to be saved by Lee then stated he had a broken left arm and some ribs
- Opened the 8th Gate which does damage beyond belief, use multiple EE's and was still carrying on.

Yet you're telling me what and whatnot damage can be done..Lee already stated he could imagine what the user goes through the Shimon let alone the tomon. I'll disagree with you heavily simply because of his endurance feats especially considering the fact that you think upon opening the 6th and 7th which was against Kisame, he can go through all that but then the war where he's actually showing many more of this, you tell me it's different. Yeah I'm convinced you're definitely wrong.