[Theory] Kotoamatsukami, Tobi, Danzo, the Uchiha Massacre and more.

XiZ

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I have these strange statements/theories/whatever. What if Madara, as well as Tobi, used this alias(Tobi)? What if Kotoamatsukami was involved in the Uchiha Massacre? What if Danzo(yes, Danzo) made Yagura obey Tobi through Kotoamatsukami?

Since we know that Yagura was controlled by Tobi, there's no mistake that he was under Kotoamatsukami. That means Danzo used it on him. Narutopedia: "The Fifth Mizukage commented that she couldn't help but conclude that there was a connection between this technique and the power that controlled Yagura, the Fourth Mizukage." It's been stated before but I'll state it again: Tobi and Danzo had this deal going on through the years - Danzo helps Tobi with stuff while Tobi doesn't make a move on Konoha. I think this deal was made somewhen before the Kurama attack.

First, we know that Tobi somehow gained access to the secret birth of Naruto. That's when Tobi broke the deal with Danzo. We know that Uchiha can control tailed beasts with the Sharingan. Now, we don't know how exactly Tobi learned about the birthplace. I guess Danzo told him in order to make Konoha look weak so he can get to the Hokage title. Danzo knew that either Hiruzen or Minato would have to sacrifice themselves in order to seal the Kyuubi. Danzo was also missing from the battlefield.
Second, Orochimaru's attack was no coincidence as well. That's when Danzo struck a deal with Orochimaru. His motive was to try out his IWR so he can see if it's complete or needs more adjusting. Also, this attack, in my opinion, was yet another try of Danzo's to become the new Hokage. Danzo had his body modified by Orochimaru and possibly devised the plan about the Konoha Invasion. Narutopedia: "The Fourth Raikage insinuated that the invasion may have been the result of a secret plot of Danzō Shimura with Akatsuki, more exactly Orochimaru who at the time was not part of the organisation, to dispose of the Third Hokage and the Fourth Kazekage."

Another thing.
We don't know when Madara died so I think he actually lived to see the Uchicha Massacre at least. This is Tobi at the Kyuubi attack:
In my opinion, this(8 years after the Kyuubi attack) was actually Madara.
We also see that at the Kyuubi attack Tobi's hands were still human. At this time, 1 of his hands is a Zetsu hand.


Now, I think Kotoamatsukami had a part in the Massacre too. If we assume that Danzo and Tobi were in cahoots, we can also assume that Danzo used Kotoamatsukami on Itachi to make him do it. Itachi realized this and made up the story about how he wanted to make Sasuke the hero and the one to redeem the Uchiha name. I'm saying this because of the latest chapter, where Itachi says "The truth about me..." and Sasuke interrupts him.
Tobi wanted to take out the elders because they were opressing the Uchiha, who were believed to be behind the attack on Konoha. He secretly "teamed up" with Danzo to get access to Konoha and in that way to keep track of the Uchiha. That's when Madara stepped in. He was angry at the Uchiha who didn't back him up when Hashirama became Hokage. So he acted as Tobi in order to eliminate the Uchiha by using Itachi. Later on the real Tobi would use Sasuke to eliminate the elders(Danzo as of yet).

To sum this last part up, Tobi was 2 people - the real Tobi and Madara Uchiha. Tobi wanted to eliminate the elders, Madara wanted to eliminate the Uchiha. After the Massacre, Tobi was probably angry at Madara and chose to forget his plan. That's probably why Tobi didn't revive him using the Rinnegan and was shocked to see him in Kabuto's coffin.
 
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Ryuu..

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Oh sh*t. This is it. This is what i've been looking for. The truth :eek: I don't believe i'm seeing this :sy:

+rep to you. Just +rep don't reply to this post. No need.
 

Qcks

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To sum this last part up, Tobi was 2 people - the real Tobi and Madara Uchiha.
Fail.

Tobi didn't revive Edo Madara because Nagato exhausted the Rinnegan's revivification power when he resurrected Konoha after pein's invasion.

To be honest, it's not clear if that power is completely reinvigorated. Kabuto used it to resurrect Nagato after absorbing a bunch of chakra from Kirabi and Naruto, but we haven't seen Tobi (who currently has the actual Rinnegan implanted into his eyes) use the full range of Rinnegan techniques.
 

XiZ

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Fail.

Tobi didn't revive Edo Madara because Nagato exhausted the Rinnegan's revivification power when he resurrected Konoha after pein's invasion.

To be honest, it's not clear if that power is completely reinvigorated. Kabuto used it to resurrect Nagato after absorbing a bunch of chakra from Kirabi and Naruto, but we haven't seen Tobi (who currently has the actual Rinnegan implanted into his eyes) use the full range of Rinnegan techniques.
Even so, you're disproving my last two sentences. Though, I have to admit, this sounds quite truthful.:)

P.S Thanks, everyone!
 

Qcks

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I could see Danzo using Shisui's eye on Itachi, but what the theory fails to explain is what's in it for Danzo.

If Danzo and Itachi had Shisui's eye, then they were the only two that could use Kotoamtsukami. If that's true, Danzo didn't need Tobi's help, which means he'd have no need to ally with him.
 

XiZ

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I could see Danzo using Shisui's eye on Itachi, but what the theory fails to explain is what's in it for Danzo.

If Danzo and Itachi had Shisui's eye, then they were the only two that could use Kotoamtsukami. If that's true, Danzo didn't need Tobi's help, which means he'd have no need to ally with him.
Heh, well, I can't explain the whole Naruto, can I?:p Nevertheless, I'll think about it, re-read my post and see if I can find an explanation based on the theory.
 
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Tartarus

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Well it is interesting to note that Danzo and Kagami Uchiha are the only village elders missing in this panel.

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edo tensai wilmaso

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i like your idea , not saying it's the truth because it is not.still like it tough. sorry its just really hard to buy in full. but like i said i like. its better than most theories so touche.
 

Kirin Rei

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I have these strange statements/theories/whatever. What if Madara, as well as Tobi, used this alias(Tobi)? What if Kotoamatsukami was involved in the Uchiha Massacre? What if Danzo(yes, Danzo) made Yagura obey Tobi through Kotoamatsukami?
I'm sorry to oppose, but Danzo doesn't have Kotoamatsukami, he only has Shisui's right eye.
Since we know that Yagura was controlled by Tobi, there's no mistake that he was under Kotoamatsukami. That means Danzo used it on him. Narutopedia: "The Fifth Mizukage commented that she couldn't help but conclude that there was a connection between this technique and the power that controlled Yagura, the Fourth Mizukage." It's been stated before but I'll state it again: Tobi and Danzo had this deal going on through the years - Danzo helps Tobi with stuff while Tobi doesn't make a move on Konoha. I think this deal was made somewhen before the Kurama attack.
That's highly possible. It seems as if Shisui's right eye also has a strong suggestive genjutsu similar to Kotoamatsukami, but it's not the same. A pair of MS eyes each have a different technique, and it's not certain if Shisui was able to awaken the main jutsus in both of his eyes.
Tobi has said that Susanoo can only be formed after both of the eyes' MS abilities are unlocked.
That just might be plot no jutsu, in order to disable Kakashi from using said technique, but it also suggests that you can awaken your ultimate MS jutsus one by one.

Plus, Shisui's Kotoamatsukami was used appoximately 10 years ago. That date is right around the time Shisui handed his left eye that had Kotoamatsukami to Itachi and his right to Danzo and supposedly committed suicide. It's also the time when Itachi began being suspected by the Uchiha clan, just before the Uchiha massacre.
It just might be that the suspicions about Itachi were caused because push had come to shove, but it's also possible that Shisui used his last Kotoamatsukami on Itachi or Danzo. :shrug:

However, this doesn't eliminate the possibility of Danzo being a part of the controlling of Yagura. It just eliminates the possibility of Kotoamatsukami being used.
First, we know that Tobi somehow gained access to the secret birth of Naruto. That's when Tobi broke the deal with Danzo. We know that Uchiha can control tailed beasts with the Sharingan. Now, we don't know how exactly Tobi learned about the birthplace. I guess Danzo told him in order to make Konoha look weak so he can get to the Hokage title. Danzo knew that either Hiruzen or Minato would have to sacrifice themselves in order to seal the Kyuubi. Danzo was also missing from the battlefield.
I agree.
There is also the possibility of Danzo wanting the Uchiha to be eliminated.
The whole thing reeks of a set up.
Why would Tobi do such a thing?
He had nothing to gain by doing so.
All he did was get the fox for a while, destroy a section of Konoha, get a Rasengan in the face and retreat.
That doesn't sound like a plan fitting the mastermind that is Tobi.

But what we must inspect is the consequences of said attack.
He got Minato killed, Kurama sealed into a host that wouldn't know how to control it for another 16 years and most importantly, he got the Uchiha clan destroyed.

It's a fairly well known fact that the Sharingan is able to control Kurama. The Uchiha clan were nowhere to be found in the village during the attack.
Mikoto was the one who witnessed Kushina heading out of the village.
But if so, why was the entire attack carried out by Tobi only? Why weren't there traces of any other Uchiha to be found?

This just seems like a setup to pin the blame on the Uchiha and consecutively have them annihilated.
For what reason, I'm not sure.
Second, Orochimaru's attack was no coincidence as well. That's when Danzo struck a deal with Orochimaru. His motive was to try out his IWR so he can see if it's complete or needs more adjusting. Also, this attack, in my opinion, was yet another try of Danzo's to become the new Hokage. Danzo had his body modified by Orochimaru and possibly devised the plan about the Konoha Invasion. Narutopedia: "The Fourth Raikage insinuated that the invasion may have been the result of a secret plot of Danzō Shimura with Akatsuki, more exactly Orochimaru who at the time was not part of the organisation, to dispose of the Third Hokage and the Fourth Kazekage."
This too, is perfectly plausible.
Another thing.
We don't know when Madara died so I think he actually lived to see the Uchicha Massacre at least. This is Tobi at the Kyuubi attack:
In my opinion, this(8 years after the Kyuubi attack) was actually Madara.
We also see that at the Kyuubi attack Tobi's hands were still human. At this time, 1 of his hands is a Zetsu hand.
Nuuuu.
I'll have to oppose you again.
Tobi was definitely made up of Hashi/Zetsu material during Kurama's attack and Madara was dead.
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See his hand?
Now, I think Kotoamatsukami had a part in the Massacre too. If we assume that Danzo and Tobi were in cahoots, we can also assume that Danzo used Kotoamatsukami on Itachi to make him do it. Itachi realized this and made up the story about how he wanted to make Sasuke the hero and the one to redeem the Uchiha name. I'm saying this because of the latest chapter, where Itachi says "The truth about me..." and Sasuke interrupts him.
Tobi wanted to take out the elders because they were opressing the Uchiha, who were believed to be behind the attack on Konoha. He secretly "teamed up" with Danzo to get access to Konoha and in that way to keep track of the Uchiha. That's when Madara stepped in. He was angry at the Uchiha who didn't back him up when Hashirama became Hokage. So he acted as Tobi in order to eliminate the Uchiha by using Itachi. Later on the real Tobi would use Sasuke to eliminate the elders(Danzo as of yet).
That's most probably not the way it happened and as I've said before Danzo doesn't have Kotoamatsukami, but it's certain that Tobi, Danzo and those who wanted the Uchiha eliminated were in some sort of an agreement.
To sum this last part up, Tobi was 2 people - the real Tobi and Madara Uchiha. Tobi wanted to eliminate the elders, Madara wanted to eliminate the Uchiha. After the Massacre, Tobi was probably angry at Madara and chose to forget his plan. That's probably why Tobi didn't revive him using the Rinnegan and was shocked to see him in Kabuto's coffin.
Madara died aorund the time of the 2nd Shinobi WW.
It's pretty much a given that he was the one who gave Nagato his Rinnegan.
Plus, he referred to Nagato as a brat and assumed that he was revived via Rinne Tensei when he came back with Edo Tensei.

He also stated that he died shortly after awakening his new doujutsu, and we've never seen Nagato without the Rinnegan. Even before he supposedly awakened it due to his parents being murdered. Meaning that Rinnegan was a foreign KG to Nagato.

Anyways, Nagato first showed his Rinnegan during the 2nd Shinobi WW and he was clearly younger than 10 years old, because Jiraiya stated that he had mastered all the elements by the age of 10.
Lets just assume he was 7-8 when his parents were killed.

Nagato and Minato are supposed to be around the same age, with only a couple of years of difference. Minato was a couple of years younger than Nagato, seeing that Jiraiya started training him after he was done with Konan, Yahiko and Nagato, who were clearly around 13-14 when they were left on their own.

That completely obliterates the possibility of Madara being alive and kicking during the Kyuubi attack, because he died when Minato was just an infant.

Anyways...
I think that's it. :izuna:
 
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Bigfoot34501

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I have these strange statements/theories/whatever. What if Madara, as well as Tobi, used this alias(Tobi)? What if Kotoamatsukami was involved in the Uchiha Massacre? What if Danzo(yes, Danzo) made Yagura obey Tobi through Kotoamatsukami?

Since we know that Yagura was controlled by Tobi, there's no mistake that he was under Kotoamatsukami. That means Danzo used it on him. Narutopedia: "The Fifth Mizukage commented that she couldn't help but conclude that there was a connection between this technique and the power that controlled Yagura, the Fourth Mizukage." It's been stated before but I'll state it again: Tobi and Danzo had this deal going on through the years - Danzo helps Tobi with stuff while Tobi doesn't make a move on Konoha. I think this deal was made somewhen before the Kurama attack.

First, we know that Tobi somehow gained access to the secret birth of Naruto. That's when Tobi broke the deal with Danzo. We know that Uchiha can control tailed beasts with the Sharingan. Now, we don't know how exactly Tobi learned about the birthplace. I guess Danzo told him in order to make Konoha look weak so he can get to the Hokage title. Danzo knew that either Hiruzen or Minato would have to sacrifice themselves in order to seal the Kyuubi. Danzo was also missing from the battlefield.
Second, Orochimaru's attack was no coincidence as well. That's when Danzo struck a deal with Orochimaru. His motive was to try out his IWR so he can see if it's complete or needs more adjusting. Also, this attack, in my opinion, was yet another try of Danzo's to become the new Hokage. Danzo had his body modified by Orochimaru and possibly devised the plan about the Konoha Invasion. Narutopedia: "The Fourth Raikage insinuated that the invasion may have been the result of a secret plot of Danzō Shimura with Akatsuki, more exactly Orochimaru who at the time was not part of the organisation, to dispose of the Third Hokage and the Fourth Kazekage."

Another thing.
We don't know when Madara died so I think he actually lived to see the Uchicha Massacre at least. This is Tobi at the Kyuubi attack:
In my opinion, this(8 years after the Kyuubi attack) was actually Madara.
We also see that at the Kyuubi attack Tobi's hands were still human. At this time, 1 of his hands is a Zetsu hand.


Now, I think Kotoamatsukami had a part in the Massacre too. If we assume that Danzo and Tobi were in cahoots, we can also assume that Danzo used Kotoamatsukami on Itachi to make him do it. Itachi realized this and made up the story about how he wanted to make Sasuke the hero and the one to redeem the Uchiha name. I'm saying this because of the latest chapter, where Itachi says "The truth about me..." and Sasuke interrupts him.
Tobi wanted to take out the elders because they were opressing the Uchiha, who were believed to be behind the attack on Konoha. He secretly "teamed up" with Danzo to get access to Konoha and in that way to keep track of the Uchiha. That's when Madara stepped in. He was angry at the Uchiha who didn't back him up when Hashirama became Hokage. So he acted as Tobi in order to eliminate the Uchiha by using Itachi. Later on the real Tobi would use Sasuke to eliminate the elders(Danzo as of yet).

To sum this last part up, Tobi was 2 people - the real Tobi and Madara Uchiha. Tobi wanted to eliminate the elders, Madara wanted to eliminate the Uchiha. After the Massacre, Tobi was probably angry at Madara and chose to forget his plan. That's probably why Tobi didn't revive him using the Rinnegan and was shocked to see him in Kabuto's coffin.
I like your theory, but I have one main problem with it, I do not think that Danzo could have manipulated Yagura.

First of all, I want to note that I made a similar theory about how Tobi himself has Kotoamatsukami that he got from a close relative of Shisui. I believe that when Tobi killed Danzo and tried taking Shisui's right eye, Tobi was hoping to unlock EMS with it

But back to the Yagura point. Danzo couldn't have been manipulating Yagura for two reasons:

1. Kisame joined the Akatsuki before Itachi, I think it's in one of the databooks that it says he was one of the first members of Akatsuki; Itachi joined after Kisame. When Kisame met Tobi for the first time, Tobi was manipulating Yagura with that ultra high powerful genjutsu that allowed him to control Yagura even though Yagura was a semi-perfect jinchuriki host. So since Kisame wasn't in the Akatsuki yet, Itachi wasn't in the Akatsuki yet either, and since Itachi wasn't in the Akatsuki yet either, Shisui was alive and still had both of his eyes. So Danzo couldn't have been helping Tobi manipulate Yagura if he didn't have Shisui's eye at the time

2. This reason is more speculation, but I still want to make this point. I don't think Danzo could have left the village for such extended periods of time to manipulate Yagura. Hiruzen may have let him go out whenever he wanted, but if he started leaving the village for extended periods of time, Hiruzen would have figured out that something was up and Danzo would have been in trouble. I will admit this is my opinion though, not a fact

Overall though +rep for the theory and the effort you put into it

I'm sorry to oppose, but Danzo doesn't have Kotoamatsukami, he only has Shisui's right eye.

That's highly possible. It seems as if Shisui's right eye also has a strong suggestive genjutsu similar to Kotoamatsukami, but it's not the same. A pair of MS eyes each have a different technique, and it's not certain if Shisui was able to awaken the main jutsus in both of his eyes.
Tobi has said that Susanoo can only be formed after both of the eyes' MS abilities are unlocked.
That just might be plot no jutsu, in order to disable Kakashi from using said technique, but it also suggests that you can awaken your ultimate MS jutsus one by one.

Plus, Shisui's Kotoamatsukami was used appoximately 10 years ago. That date is right around the time Shisui handed his left eye that had Kotoamatsukami to Itachi and his right to Danzo and supposedly committed suicide. It's also the time when Itachi began being suspected by the Uchiha clan, just before the Uchiha massacre.
It just might be that the suspicions about Itachi were caused because push had come to shove, but it's also possible that Shisui used his last Kotoamatsukami on Itachi or Danzo. :shrug:

However, this doesn't eliminate the possibility of Danzo being a part of the controlling of Yagura. It just eliminates the possibility of Kotoamatsukami being used.
Actually Shisui did have Kotoamatsukami in both eyes. Itachi said "Shisui's eyes create the most powerful genjustu." Notice Itachi referred to both of Shisui's eyes and only one genjutsu
This means that both of his eyes have the same genjustu, Kotoamatsukami. The reason Ao didn't say the name Kotoamatsukami was probably because he didn't actually know it. He probably just saw it and figured out how powerful it was. As for why Danzo kept sending commands to Mifune while Itachi only received one command was probably because Danzo needed to make sure that Mifune had reasons to choose Danzo instead of just saying "I choose Danzo" which would have made Mifune and Danzo look suspicious in front of the other Kages.

As for needing to have a different tech in each eye, you have to remember that we've only seen the full extent of Itachi and Sasuke's MS. There really is no "norm" for Mangekyo Sharingan because we don't know all of the abilities of the other 4 Mangekyo Sharingan users in Naruto. If we knew about all of the techs they had, maybe we would have a clearer understanding of the Mangekyo Sharingan
 

Kirin Rei

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Actually Shisui did have Kotoamatsukami in both eyes. Itachi said "Shisui's eyes create the most powerful genjustu." Notice Itachi referred to both of Shisui's eyes and only one genjutsu
This means that both of his eyes have the same genjustu, Kotoamatsukami. The reason Ao didn't say the name Kotoamatsukami was probably because he didn't actually know it. He probably just saw it and figured out how powerful it was. As for why Danzo kept sending commands to Mifune while Itachi only received one command was probably because Danzo needed to make sure that Mifune had reasons to choose Danzo instead of just saying "I choose Danzo" which would have made Mifune and Danzo look suspicious in front of the other Kages.

As for needing to have a different tech in each eye, you have to remember that we've only seen the full extent of Itachi and Sasuke's MS. There really is no "norm" for Mangekyo Sharingan because we don't know all of the abilities of the other 4 Mangekyo Sharingan users in Naruto. If we knew about all of the techs they had, maybe we would have a clearer understanding of the Mangekyo Sharingan
Actually, this is the correct translation of the conversation Bee and Itachi were having.

Bee - うちは最強の幻術使い… 瞬身 の シ スイか? -> Uchiha's strongest genjutsu user... Shisui of the body flicker?
Itachi - シスイの瞳力は対象者 が 幻 術 に か けら れたと自覚する事なく操 る 事が出来 る 最 強 幻 術 を 生 む 木の葉を守れ… -> Shisui's eye power had the ability to control the target without them even noticing bla bla bla...

Itachi didn't say Shisui's eyes. He used 瞳力, which means eye power.

Plus, he later on states that he embedded it specifically into the left eye of the crow.
I think that too, has been left out of the translation.

It's stated in the third databook that in order to be able to use Susanoo, one must awaken the abilities in both eyes. This indicates that each MS in a pair has different abilities.
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... Stuff about Itachi's Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi, one enabling to show substances of light, one of darkness bla bla bla... Only those that have been able to use both of these doujutsu can use the power of the malevolent god Susanoo...
It states that Itachi can only use Susanoo because he has awakened Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi, his respective MS techniques.

By categorizing each eye in a pair of MS seperately, it means that each MS is supposed to have different jutsus indeed. :shrug:
 
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