Konoha Tavern - RP General Chat Discussion

[Zatanna]

Before I give my take on that...how are these lower tier (also, where are the tiers defined? Haven't found it) being hard capped below the others? What is stopping them from being as strong or stronger than the higher ones?

As one of the few people that managed to get YinYang early, I would like to heard your thoughts on the updates to the techniques they made. I know theres some that have been added/removed. What do you think?

 

[Pervyy]

Bringing up something I mentioned the other day and have been caught up in a couple arguments over, I just wanted to know how other people feel about the power tiers of bios as they stand.

Specifically (and I'm talking about bios and clans here, not universals), but do you think abilities of different tiers should be defined by how strong they are, or how strong they can be?

Inherently, a Six Paths Sasuke bio is stronger than a Hozuki bio by order of magnitudes. It's different worlds, almost, but I don't really have a problem with that.

The question is, should that be hard enforced and cemented as a fact, or should it be mutable?

Fundamentally, the default strength of a bio will always heavily influence its potential strength. Given this difference in power floors and 'base stats', I personally see no reason to take things a step further and cement 'power ceilings'.

In my mind, if someone can think of ways to enhance and build on their Hozuki to the point where it far transcends its initial tier, and can actually match or even surpass a Six Paths Sasuke bio, then power to them.

Because ultimately, nothing is stopping a Six Paths Sasuke bio holder from similarly fleshing out their bios inherent strengths. If they get out-done by something that has a much lower power floor - then that's purely their own failing; and a sign of either incompetence, a lack of creativity, or a lack of effort, because from the start they not only had higher base stats, but also more options to explore.

However, as things currently are, it seems apparent that the opposite approach is being taken. Not only are lower tier bios and clans intrinsically weaker, but their power ceilings are being hard capped so that they literally cannot rise above a certain point.

I'd argue that it should be the opposite, and the development of lower tier abilities should actually be encouraged and rewarded in the spirit of diversity, specialisation, and personalisation.

Instead of rules being made to undermine and limit the options and potential of weaker bios, rules should instead be made for rewards that can be gained through farming, and would be designed so that enthusiasts can expand upon the options that their HA/KG could logically grant. (I.e, perks like my steel bios are now upgraded, or a damage bonus to a field, and so on. I'm sure there's a variety of options that could be added - mainly little things that can scale into bigger differences in the right hands)

I'd like to see other peoples opinions on this. It really is a matter of design theory/philosophy, so I imagine there'll be a lot of different opinions, but the general sentiment is;
Do you think tier differences should be enforced, or do you think that 'tier mobility' should be encouraged, and perhaps more avenues introduced to facilitate for it?

Bare in mind, I'm not talking about free power or hard buffs/nerfs, but rather more options in the form of perks that can be worked towards/farmed.

To be honest i think it's as simple as, do what you can will the ability, as long as it doesn't go beyond what the ability was shown to be. Like sticking to the fundamentals of that ability.

I agree you should be allowed to develop and build, but in the past we have seen people just inherently change an ability, such as Dark release, it just stopped being the dark release shown in the series.

I mean an example was, years ago, before YY became the "meta", Moofy or Panthalassa build on an ability and i think that should be acceptable. You should be able to build an ability up to compete with the high end of abilities, as long as you stay true to that.


Not only that but you need to keep balance in the rp when it comes to individual customs etc.

 

[Scorps]

As one of the few people that managed to get YinYang early, I would like to heard your thoughts on the updates to the techniques they made. I know theres some that have been added/removed. What do you think?

I got it early for a few reasons. We spent a lot of months debating how to bring yin yang into the rp. The reasons at the time were various. Muten Akira and the big yydrama was part of it. Also, we took a long time to, in the manga, define what cannonically yin and yang release was. So when we finally got it approved we needed someone to teach it and have it to lead by example how to use it. I left before I could finish any training I think.

At the time, we knew only of the techniques that sasuke, obito, madara and naruto were using. We didn't have any other canon pure yin or yang techniques. However, we wanted to have a few so we adapted creation of all things in a way that made sense to the rp. I made two or three techniques to ensure we had some for people to use. The turn into heaven and turn into hell ones or something like that. But I left shortly after it was released into the rp.

Since then we saw more canon techniques, in boruto for example. We understood better what the elements can do. Etc.

I dunno what was changed or added since I dont remember exactly what existed when I left. I made a lot of things and the lasts months I was a mod are a bit blurry with all that was going on. So I cant speak for the changes that might have been.

Having fought against naikiri and facing some yy techs, I feel some might be too strong but at the same time, it might be a case of me being too weak. I could have simply used them myself.

Dunno. It's always a subjective thing. Was I too weak to come up with a way against them or are they really too strong? Difficult to say.

 

[Drackos]

I got it early for a few reasons. We spent a lot of months debating how to bring yin yang into the rp. The reasons at the time were various. Muten Akira and the big yydrama was part of it. Also, we took a long time to, in the manga, define what cannonically yin and yang release was. So when we finally got it approved we needed someone to teach it and have it to lead by example how to use it. I left before I could finish any training I think.

At the time, we knew only of the techniques that sasuke, obito, madara and naruto were using. We didn't have any other canon pure yin or yang techniques. However, we wanted to have a few so we adapted creation of all things in a way that made sense to the rp. I made two or three techniques to ensure we had some for people to use. The turn into heaven and turn into hell ones or something like that. But I left shortly after it was released into the rp.

Since then we saw more canon techniques, in boruto for example. We understood better what the elements can do. Etc.

I dunno what was changed or added since I dont remember exactly what existed when I left. I made a lot of things and the lasts months I was a mod are a bit blurry with all that was going on. So I cant speak for the changes that might have been.

Having fought against naikiri and facing some yy techs, I feel some might be too strong but at the same time, it might be a case of me being too weak. I could have simply used them myself.

Dunno. It's always a subjective thing. Was I too weak to come up with a way against them or are they really too strong? Difficult to say.

As someone who was around in 2016 when you posted the original Yin-Yang rules, and techniques, and still around today I find YY to have gotten weaker since then. The original version was definitely stronger; a lot of the techniques had damage that was just flat out crazy. For example, Phantom Dragons used to be damage PER dragon (100/120 damage per dragon), Hands of Sloth was 80 damage PER hand. Similar issues existed with 8 Branched Snake.

The counters to Yin-Yang in 2016 were also almost nonexistent then too. Today a lot more options exist.

Maybe weaker isn't the right word. Maybe the correct word should be manageable.

 

[System001]

Before I give my take on that...how are these lower tier (also, where are the tiers defined? Haven't found it) being hard capped below the others? What is stopping them from being as strong or stronger than the higher ones?

https://animebase.me/threads/currency-system-kumi-purchase-lists.756468/#post-21832714

Typically tier 5 is defined by newer additions to the rp that generally have a variety of passive boosts (+30 to ninjutsu), high end abilities and powerful techniques (high 100-200 base damages, teleportation, reality warping, can only be directly stopped by a select few abilities, etc)

Generally these are canon bios, like Hago, Six Paths Sasuke, Hamura, Madara etc.

Hard capping is basically the sentiment that weaker bios/clans should never come close to this. That they aren't, is logical, but that should never be is, I think, a matter of opinion. (I'm not saying that they should be infused with reality warping, teleportation, or high base damages to compensate, far from. That would be ridiculous and skewing them conceptually. However, as you're well aware, over the years people have constantly demonstrated the ability to take little things, and make much bigger things out of them. Minor bonuses that could be worked towards, could go a very, very long way in creating purely custom end-game content)

 

[Scorps]

As someone who was around in 2016 when you posted the original Yin-Yang rules, and techniques, and still around today I find YY to have gotten weaker since then. The original version was definitely stronger; a lot of the techniques had damage that was just flat out crazy. For example, Phantom Dragons used to be damage PER dragon (100/120 damage per dragon), Hands of Sloth was 80 damage PER hand. Similar issues existed with 8 Branched Snake.

The counters to Yin-Yang in 2016 were also almost nonexistent then too. Today a lot more options exist.

Maybe weaker isn't the right word. Maybe the correct word should be manageable.

Like I said, I cant really say its weaker or stronger or that as a whole it's too strong or too weak because I dont remember the details of what it was back then. My opinion will always be incomplete.

Also, I'm not keen on the idea of nerfing. If yy is deemed too powerful, I'm more keen on the idea of redefining it and placing boundaries as well as giving it more limited number of uses than actually nerfing it outright.

The only note I'll say is that speed is a huge pain to balance in the rp and might be the biggest offender. That's why eig has so many drawbacks.

 

[Zatanna]

I think the Tier system needs another looking at, simply because there is a lot on there that is outdated/some things have been updated.
A few examples:
-Bubblegum, Ink, Puppetry, Rain, Sensory, all t1 abilities that are adv nin, and now with paper nin and poison release as Adv Nin, there is a discrepancy between them, as in, will paper ninjutsu have a cost? Is poison really worth 4.5k?
-Some KG are to be paid for, eg Sand/Shikotsumyaku. I feel like this is from an older part of the rp where they were seen as more powerful abilities. I (personally) dont think Sand or Shiko should be needed to be paid for.
-Another example to relook at the tier list would be 3rd Raikage vs 4th Raikage. The 3rd Raikage is a tier above, the difference being that he has 400 extra chakra, shaves -10 more damage, and can use black lightning. But trades this off for not having a passive +3 to his base speed.
-I personally dont think that Tsunade, 3rd Raikage, Kisame, Sarada or Sumire should being in the same tier as EIG, MS/EMS/Rinnegan, Adv Madara, Adv Obito. There is a huge power discrepency between them.

I have other gripes with abilities and 'having only 1' of a certain character compared to others. Biggest arguement being that we have 2 or 3 Hagoromo's and 2 or 3 Six Path Sasukes, and 2 or 3 Hamura's, but a t4 Jinchuuriki is a special single bio. I understand that there may be several reasons behind this, but I think it could be worked around. I think that with the right rules in place, it could be fine to have multiple of the same jinchuuriki.

Edit: I will stress this is just personal opinion, not a flame or having a go, just open thoughts.

 

[Scorps]

https://animebase.me/threads/currency-system-kumi-purchase-lists.756468/#post-21832714

Typically tier 5 is defined by newer additions to the rp that generally have a variety of passive boosts (+30 to ninjutsu), high end abilities and powerful techniques (high 100-200 base damages, teleportation, reality warping, can only be directly stopped by a select few abilities, etc)

Generally these are canon bios, like Hago, Six Paths Sasuke, Hamura, Madara etc.

Hard capping is basically the sentiment that weaker bios/clans should never come close to this. That they aren't, is logical, but that should never be is, I think, a matter of opinion. (I'm not saying that they should be infused with reality warping, teleportation, or high base damages to compensate, far from. That would be ridiculous and skewing them conceptually. However, as you're well aware, over the years people have constantly demonstrated the ability to take little things, and make much bigger things out of them. Minor bonuses that could be worked towards, could go a very, very long way in creating purely custom end-game content)

Those bios you mention all have abilities that are by default strong. You cant logically make an ability like...hozuki as strong as instant teleport, mind control, reality warping, etc. Sure you can make it so that it does up to forbidden rank damage but the ability itself is liquidating your body and the whole oil explodey clone. There isn't much there to make it on part with teleports.

Most of the time, a field is weak because its ability doesnt have the potential to be strong.

 

[System001]

To be honest i think it's as simple as, do what you can will the ability, as long as it doesn't go beyond what the ability was shown to be. Like sticking to the fundamentals of that ability.

I agree you should be allowed to develop and build, but in the past we have seen people just inherently change an ability, such as Dark release, it just stopped being the dark release shown in the series.

I mean an example was, years ago, before YY became the "meta", Moofy or Panthalassa build on an ability and i think that should be acceptable. You should be able to build an ability up to compete with the high end of abilities, as long as you stay true to that.


Not only that but you need to keep balance in the rp when it comes to individual customs etc.

I see what you're saying. When things exit what they should be conceptually it can get out of hand pretty quickly. It also becomes a case of 'well how am I supposed to know that?' because things are no longer intuitive or reflective of the series.

Those bios you mention all have abilities that are by default strong. You cant logically make an ability like...hozuki as strong as instant teleport, mind control, reality warping, etc. Sure you can make it so that it does up to forbidden rank damage but the ability itself is liquidating your body and the whole oil explodey clone. There isn't much there to make it on part with teleports.

Most of the time, a field is weak because its ability doesnt have the potential to be strong.

I agree, I think exclusive access to their own brands of game-breaking abilities is a Hago or whatever bios prerogative.
However, historically people have taken weaker fields extremely far (Pervy already mentioned three, Pantha and bugs, Moofy and Hozuki, NK and dark, but there's also NK's steel, my Inuzuka, Vayne with Nara, Drackos and blast.) Now, some of it was wild (and that's another discussion entirely because the difference between wild customs, and wild canons are the series itself) but generally if there were attainable perks, things like custom dog breeds, liquid steel, passive boosts, alternate applications of an ability or whatever, that could be brought or worked for, then I believe the potential would truly exist. Because it has in the past.

After-all, things are no longer based on permission or battle tests, they're based on farming Kumi. Someone wanting to work towards a canon bio for their end game content is fine, but someone willing to put in the creativity needed - as well as farming the kumi or rewards necessary - to work towards custom non pre-packaged end-game content of their own creation is for some reason limited? Personally I disagree, but I know everyone has their own thoughts on it.

 

[Alternative]

I'm starting to think the point is being missed. This isn't about making customs within the realms of the ability or whether something has the potential to be strong, but rather about the natural growth every character has to become stronger over time. While I don't agree with the notion that any old bio should be capable of strength similar to Jinchuriki Madara with EMS, Rinnegan etc. I do like the idea of achieving a natural strength over your specialties, through adventure, comraderie and tournament arcs.

An example of developing strength could be the single handseal specialty we've always had here; your character wouldn't have naturally been capable of performing whatever element they specialise in when they started learning it, but over time they come to master that ability and the single handseal represents that mastery.

 

[Zatanna]

So, considering that Yin/Yang/YinYang has a higher chakra and damage base, is it possible to have a canon base such as aburame bugs, Hozuki/Nara to be taken to the extreme of being on the level of YY?
I ask genuinely, as I am not the best creative types for customs. What I struggle with is that while these canon abilities have a base damage and chakra cap (F rank 50 chakra 90 damage), base S rank Yin or Yang techniques have a higher stat base.

On top of this, at least for yin, there are only some techniques that can be interacted with by yin/yang/YY or Senjutsu. Forcing you to either use one of the aformentioned abilities.

Edit: as with Alternatives idea, there could be a potential for the Apex mastery or even primary mastery of an element/ability (outside of YY) to give an inherent +X for taking that speciality? representing the mastery over that chosen field.

 

[Drackos]

Everyone is welcome to send me rule set suggestions of Witchwood Arena either over Discord DM or profile VM. Preferably not this thread because frankly I can’t keep up with it lol.

Examples are no YY, Tai only, etc.

 

[System001]

I'm starting to think the point is being missed. This isn't about making customs within the realms of the ability or whether something has the potential to be strong, but rather about the natural growth every character has to become stronger over time. While I don't agree with the notion that any old bio should be capable of strength similar to Jinchuriki Madara with EMS, Rinnegan etc. I do like the idea of achieving a natural strength over your specialties, through adventure, comraderie and tournament arcs.

An example of developing strength could be the single handseal specialty we've always had here; your character wouldn't have naturally been capable of performing whatever element they specialise in when they started learning it, but over time they come to master that ability and the single handseal represents that mastery.

What direction would you take this in? Could you suggest some examples that you think could be a good idea?

So, considering that Yin/Yang/YinYang has a higher chakra and damage base, is it possible to have a canon base such as aburame bugs, Hozuki/Nara to be taken to the extreme of being on the level of YY?
I ask genuinely, as I am not the best creative types for customs. What I struggle with is that while these canon abilities have a base damage and chakra cap (F rank 50 chakra 90 damage), base S rank Yin or Yang techniques have a higher stat base.

On top of this, at least for yin, there are only some techniques that can be interacted with by yin/yang/YY or Senjutsu. Forcing you to either use one of the aformentioned abilities.

Edit: as with Alternatives idea, there could be a potential for the Apex mastery or even primary mastery of an element/ability (outside of YY) to give an inherent +X for taking that speciality? representing the mastery over that chosen field.

Perhaps surprisingly, I don't think that allowing for 'super techniques' that have higher base stats would be the answer. Simply because...where would it start and where would it end?
Also, technically you can achieve this already by just using Yin an Yang, so it's not like you can't create a fire technique with higher base damage and chakra...just so long as you make it a y/y custom.
I personally don't see a problem with that, since Y/Y is universal. Some bios may have better synergy with it, but the field itself isn't canon exclusive.

 

[Skorm]

So, considering that Yin/Yang/YinYang has a higher chakra and damage base, is it possible to have a canon base such as aburame bugs, Hozuki/Nara to be taken to the extreme of being on the level of YY?
I ask genuinely, as I am not the best creative types for customs. What I struggle with is that while these canon abilities have a base damage and chakra cap (F rank 50 chakra 90 damage), base S rank Yin or Yang techniques have a higher stat base.

There are certain fields that allows this without influence of YY such as CoT and i believe MP techniques can also go higher than 90 for forbidden techniques, atleast cannon jutsu wise. There are probably other examples of this as well. I think that Hands of Sloth, the technique you refer to, is very limited in terms of cjs that have the same principal as that. I just got a CEJ declined trying to have that aspect of it, stating it would basically be too overpowered.

 

[Squidy]

There are certain fields that allows this without influence of YY such as CoT and i believe MP techniques can also go higher than 90 for forbidden techniques, atleast cannon jutsu wise. There are probably other examples of this as well. I think that Hands of Sloth, the technique you refer to, is very limited in terms of cjs that have the same principal as that. I just got a CEJ declined trying to have that aspect of it, stating it would basically be too overpowered.

Hey brooooski

 

[Skorm]

Hey brooooski

Hey bro, hows it going?

 

[Scorps]

I'm starting to think the point is being missed. This isn't about making customs within the realms of the ability or whether something has the potential to be strong, but rather about the natural growth every character has to become stronger over time. While I don't agree with the notion that any old bio should be capable of strength similar to Jinchuriki Madara with EMS, Rinnegan etc. I do like the idea of achieving a natural strength over your specialties, through adventure, comraderie and tournament arcs.

An example of developing strength could be the single handseal specialty we've always had here; your character wouldn't have naturally been capable of performing whatever element they specialise in when they started learning it, but over time they come to master that ability and the single handseal represents that mastery.

Hum, but there are limits to how much a bio can grow without customs. Customs is what the user will give the bio and make it their own and grow it over time. The growth in the RP is a lot custom based.

Take a Hyuuga. You make a Hyuuga bio. Lets assume you have the basic 5, nin, gen, tai, fuuin. You have Byakugan, with all its passive abilities. Then you have Jyuken, which has up so S-rank techniques...but those are short range. With specialties, you can boost that bio to be a CQC top contender. HOWEVER, without customs, you can never make it, no matter how many specialities you put in it, on part with an EMS, Rinnesharingan Sasuke. Using customs, you have a chance to build its power but, can the Byakugan really allow for the creation of power on par with something like that?

I understand the point of wanting a bio or ability you want to be able to grow but the only way this could happen beyond someone making customs to develop it is if the mods make techniques and empower those abilities or bios in a way that gives it that progression. Lets say someone made Jyuken techniques which you can only use after you've done a mission or some action and these techniques are on par with something like Shinra Tensei? (also, this wouldn't be possible but for the sake of argument lets assume it is) As long as the growth to that level was continuous and attainable, you could feel progression in that bio within its abilities. But it had to be something tailor made for them. Cannonically, most bios, HA, KGs suck in comparisson with most top things.

 

[Pervyy]

Tbh, i always thought that something cool would be, a boost to an element or kg for a spec. Like +20 damage for that. Like we see with a lot of cannon characters. I know samurai in their rules get it for Kenjutsu, which is great. But say you wanted to specialise in wind. Yes you can go apex handseal, but would be cool to have your extra spec as a boost to your elemental affinity, to fully streamline your bio, as reflected with cannon characters. For example, how Onooki gets +20 to earth.

Just a penny for a thought to bridge the gap. Of course you'd have to apply something like: "Needs at least two specs in the chose element/skill" to warrant the buff, and show you're dedicated to the ability...

 

[Zatanna]

Some characters that are a bit outdated because theyre canon characters and have no more growth, have a passive +20 to their skill (eg Mei Terumi = water, Oonoki = Earth). However I'm not sure if adding these specialties to custom bios would good or not?
Edit: well he already said it above yeah.

 

[Skorm]

Sand and paper got that treatment in the form of a specialty.

Origami Master:

The user is capable of creating Paper techniques with paper tags interwoven, increasing damage by 20.

Note: Requires Paper.