Konan v Sound 4

[Unorthodox]

You need a brain for Genjutsu to work.

So Tsukuyomi would be useless on Konan?

Not to mention, Edo's don't have organs and yet Itachi was trapped in Tayuya's Genjutsu.

LMFAO apex a dumbass.

Sound 4/5 mops.

Nah. Haku wasnt even trying in that fight. He later goes on to surprise attack a jounin like Sai in the War arc, not to mention he intercepted Kakshi's attack.

Here we go with this nonsense only thing Haku was not trying to do is kill When Sasuke nicked Haku's leg he was surprised and said its and impossible and said Sasuke just got lucky this scan proves Haku was trying to kill

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Haku stated that this Sasuke would eventually track him and being able to fend him off (1 tomoe phucking Sasuke!) So he attacked Naruto with the intent to kill because who knew attacking a 1 tomoe user head on could be a danger to his health, Sasuke who's basically out of chakra and half dead (Legs cut up so speed is not what it would be if healthy) intercepted Haku then add Haku was beat shitless by Naruto with red eyes.

 

[Haizaki]

First time I actually agree with Unorthodox...As for the others, expect a reply later on.

 

[RedRobin]

LMFAO apex a dumbass.

Sound 4/5 mops.



Here we go with this nonsense only thing Haku was not trying to do is kill When Sasuke nicked Haku's leg he was surprised and said its and impossible and said Sasuke just got lucky this scan proves Haku was trying to kill

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Haku stated that this Sasuke would eventually track him and being able to fend him off (1 tomoe phucking Sasuke!) So he attacked Naruto with the intent to kill because who knew attacking a 1 tomoe user head on could be a danger to his health, Sasuke who's basically out of chakra and half dead (Legs cut up so speed is not what it would be if healthy) intercepted Haku then add Haku was beat shitless by Naruto with red eyes.

Lol Haku could have killed Naruto and Sasuke from the beginning, he was playing with them, not hitting any critical spots. He was NEVER trying to kill them, if he wanted to they would be dead.

Also Haku intercepted Kakashi's attack from across the battlefield and then surprised attack Sai in the war arc who would neg red eyed Naruto.

Spoiler

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[EZQ]

People. Haku was not going all out against Naruto and Sasuke and it was stated later. The difference in strenght by that time was huge.

Sasuke started to be able to see Haku because Haku was obviously getting tired of prolonguig the battle, when he could have finished it when it started.

 

[Unorthodox]

Lol Haku could have killed Naruto and Sasuke from the beginning, he was playing with them, not hitting any critical spots. He was NEVER trying to kill them, if he wanted to they would be dead.

Also Haku intercepted Kakashi's attack from across the battlefield and then surprised attack Sai in the war arc who would neg red eyed Naruto.

Spoiler

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He could have gotten them in the beginning but that's the beginning (Before red eyed Naruto and 1 Tomoe sharingan) Haku saying he was going to end it was him being serious then he got smacked backed by Sasuke. Do not ignore that he got owned by Naruto even admitting inferior to him at that point in time.

Haku intercepted a Kakashi who had his victim restrained no reason for Kakashi to move at top speed when Zabuza could barely move a muscle. That still does not changed the fact he was intercepted by Sasuke.

Ofcourse that Sai > Naruto but once again its about matchups Sai probably thought Haku was blown apart and since most ninja cannot fly Sai looking up was out of the question Haku took him by surprised nothing more its not like it was a speed blitz.

Point remains

Haku clocks out much weaker then red eyes Naruto wave arc. Sasuke dodged a couple of Orochimaru's blows even fooled him does that mean they can be compared? absolutely not.

 

[Unorthodox]

People. Haku was not going all out against Naruto and Sasuke and it was stated later. The difference in strenght by that time was huge.

Sasuke started to be able to see Haku because Haku was obviously getting tired of prolonguig the battle, when he could have finished it when it started.

Your dumbass when was it stated that the strength in time was huge? Also your denying Manga facts nothing in the scan i posted proves Haku was tired of prolonging the battle he was fearful of how strong Sasuke was with 1 tomoe so he went for Naruto to lure Sasuke in simple as that any other conclusion is a fanfic opinion supported by nothing. If Sasuke entered the fight with Sharingan he could have finished it in the beginning.

 

[RedRobin]

He could have gotten them in the beginning but that's the beginning Haku saying he was going to end it was him being serious then do not ignore that he got owned by Naruto even admitting inferior to him at that point in time.

Haku intercepted a Kakashi who had his victim restrained no reason for Kakashi to move at top speed when Zabuza could barely move a muscle. That still does not changed the fact he was intercepted by Sasuke regarless.

Ofcourse that Sai > Naruto but once again its about matchups Sai probably thought Haku was blown apart and since most ninja cannot fly Sai looking up was out of the question Haku took him by surprised nothing more its not like it was a speed blitz.

Point remains

Haku clocks out much weaker then red eyes Naruto wave arc. Sasuke dodged a couple of Orochimaru's blows even fooled him does that mean they can be compared? absolutely not.

It doesnt matter if Kakashi wasnt moving at top speed, Haku moved across the battlefield in seconds.

Its all context, Haku got the drop on jonins. You cant put that Genin Sasuke on his level, its complete BS.

Even with naruto you cant even put that Sauske on Red eyed Naruto's level, he would have shitted on Sasuke too. So using that against Haku makes no sense.

Sasuke who copied Lee's speed by that point and could use his sharingan better.

 

[Haizaki]

People. Haku was not going all out against Naruto and Sasuke and it was stated later. The difference in strenght by that time was huge.

Haku didn't want to kill Sasuke hence the reason why he changed his tools and avoided critical areas. Speed wise, Sasuke trumped him.

Sasuke started to be able to see Haku because Haku was obviously getting tired of prolonguig the battle, when he could have finished it when it started.

This is 100% not true...Read that chapter again. Sasuke forced him to use his ultimate technique and Zabuza stated in his mind Haku lost in speed. Why would he bring out his ultimate tech if he didn't want to go all out?(Doesn't make sense). He just didn't want to kill him hence avoiding critical areas as implied when Sakura said to Sasuke "It's impressive you got no hits to your critical areas". Plus Haku had to go for Naruto to put Sasuke down rather than going at Sasuke himself...He panicked in his mind that Sasuke could see his attacks. Never was it due to lack of chakra or getting tired.

Haku didn't want to kill Sasuke hence the tools he used and the fact that he avoided critical areas....However he was at his best or he win;t be pulling out his strongest technique. Didn't Kakashi talk about the tool Haku was using as well? Read the scan in regards to that tool

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[Curse Mark]

Wot. She's controlled her bodily paper without hands on tonnes of occasions. [

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][

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][

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][

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]. Not sure what this is supposed to be directed to? Is it for the Genjutsu counter? Because if that's the case then she used a paper hand so it's still a possibility since she can move her paper hand freely. Not sure what else it could be directed to, you should clarify.



Do you see the papers ~1 meter from Obito surrounding him?

Spoiler

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She attached those to him after he started Kamui'ing. Naruto was evaded at point blank range FYI, and Obito initiated Kamui after point blank range was reached. Konan had to react to Kamui after it was initiated. Big difference.

Ah my mistake, I thought you were saying she attacks with paper bombs like that while webbed.

Even so, she needs physical pain to get out of the genjutsu, and unlike shikamaru's shadows her papers cant do that.

 

[Draegod]

Haku didn't want to kill Sasuke hence the reason why he changed his tools and avoided critical areas. Speed wise, Sasuke trumped him.




This is 100% not true...Read that chapter again. Sasuke forced him to use his ultimate technique and Zabuza stated in his mind Haku lost in speed. Why would he bring out his ultimate tech if he didn't want to go all out?(Doesn't make sense). He just didn't want to kill him hence avoiding critical areas as implied when Sakura said to Sasuke "It's impressive you got no hits to your critical areas". Plus Haku had to go for Naruto to put Sasuke down rather than going at Sasuke himself...He panicked in his mind that Sasuke could see his attacks. Never was it due to lack of chakra or getting tired.

Haku didn't want to kill Sasuke hence the tools he used and the fact that he avoided critical areas....However he was at his best or he win;t be pulling out his strongest technique. Didn't Kakashi talk about the tool Haku was using as well? Read the scan in regards to that tool

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Incorrect Since Haku never took them serious to begin with.

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Haku Reacted to war arc Lee and Gai no diff yet cannot keep up with kid sasuke? lol Haku reactions far surpass part 1 sasuke and even moves faster then 3 tomoe can comprehend.

 

[Unorthodox]

It doesnt matter if Kakashi wasnt moving at top speed, Haku moved across the battlefield in seconds.

Its does matter because Sasuke intercepted Haku from a much shorter distance than Haku intercepted Kakashi meaning Sasuke's speed > Haku's

Its all context, Haku got the drop on jonins. You cant put that Genin Sasuke on his level, its complete BS.

Fodder jounin means nothing if i remember correctly academy Minato took out multiply Jounin this post is excused.

Even with naruto you cant even put that Sauske on Red eyed Naruto's level, he would have shitted on Sasuke too. So using that against Haku makes no sense.

Im using it to show how weak Haku is and that he is nowhere near Kakashi level which you are implying by saying he intercepted Kakashi's attack and still does not change the fact that 1 tomoe sharingan Sasuke healthy > Haku

Sasuke who copied Lee's speed by that point and could use his sharingan better.

He did not copy lee's speed until his fight with Gaara when he fought Orochimaru he was around weighted lee speed not with weights off.

 

[EZQ]

Haku didn't want to kill Sasuke hence the reason why he changed his tools and avoided critical areas. Speed wise, Sasuke trumped him.




This is 100% not true...Read that chapter again. Sasuke forced him to use his ultimate technique and Zabuza stated in his mind Haku lost in speed. Why would he bring out his ultimate tech if he didn't want to go all out?(Doesn't make sense). He just didn't want to kill him hence avoiding critical areas as implied when Sakura said to Sasuke "It's impressive you got no hits to your critical areas". Plus Haku had to go for Naruto to put Sasuke down rather than going at Sasuke himself...He panicked in his mind that Sasuke could see his attacks. Never was it due to lack of chakra or getting tired.

Haku didn't want to kill Sasuke hence the tools he used and the fact that he avoided critical areas....However he was at his best or he win;t be pulling out his strongest technique. Didn't Kakashi talk about the tool Haku was using as well? Read the scan in regards to that tool

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Not talking about speed. Maybe he was going at full speed i don't know. What is sure is that Haku didn't want to kill them

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Naruto and Sasuke both realized Haku spared their lifes

 

[RedRobin]

Its does matter because Sasuke intercepted Haku from a much shorter distance than Haku intercepted Kakashi meaning Sasuke's speed > Haku's



Fodder jounin means nothing if i remember correctly academy Minato took out multiply Jounin this post is excused.



Im using it to show how weak Haku is and that he is nowhere near Kakashi level which you are implying by saying he intercepted Kakashi's attack and still does not change the fact that 1 tomoe sharingan Sasuke healthy > Haku



He did not copy lee's speed until his fight with Gaara when he fought Orochimaru he was around weighted lee speed not with weights off.

Draegod said it all. Nothing else needs to be argued. You can still believe what you want.

 

[Haizaki]

Incorrect Since Haku never took them serious to begin with.

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Haku Reacted to war arc Lee and Gai no diff yet cannot keep up with kid sasuke? lol Haku reactions far surpass part 1 sasuke and even moves faster then 3 tomoe can comprehend.

Why did he pull out his ultimate technique?

That scan is false as well...Haku stated he didn't want to kill Sasuke

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but when he pulled that technique, Zabuza then questioned if he really doesn't want to kill him

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"Is that true?" Implying he was going out.


Haku narrowly reacted to a collaboration technique from both of them....That technique is nothing special when Lee who was really fast had the likes of Temari react to that particular technique even though he was a youngin. Leaf whirlwind has never been noted for its speed considering Lee tried it against Base Sasuke and he easily reacted despite getting blitzed after.

Haku on numerous occasions spoke about Sasuke's speed

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, Zabuza too

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and later used Naruto to draw him near

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. Why would he pull out his ultimate? and use Naruto? Why?

@EZQ use spoilers...I addressed the fact that he used his tools as a reason for not wanting to kill them. Not to mention he admitted defeat to Naruto KN0 state. Same person who could't blitz Neji and was getting manhandled by part 1 Base 3T Sasuke.

 

[Draegod]

lol PPl still think Friendly Haku took them serious from the beginning? Haku allowed them to be alive from the get go, if he wanted to Sasuke would have been dead here:

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All of the lines across the image is Haku moving from one mirror to the next in seconds. lol And literally saved them from Zabuza instantly offing them:

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"let me fight the kids my way". Its manga fact he was just testing and toying with them. He already had afriendship with Naruto and is wayyyyyyyyyyyy too kind hearted. War arc Serious Haku has facts and feats that place him lightyears ahead of almost all joinin that aren't already boarderline Kage level Joinin.

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Zabuza knew Haku was playing with them (in his character), Sasuke knew he was being played with. Manga facts from even Sasuke, it's literally clear as day.

 

[Draegod]

Why did he pull out his ultimate technique?

That scan is false as well...Haku stated he didn't want to kill Sasuke

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but when he pulled that technique, Zabuza the questioned if he really doesn't want to kill him

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"Is that true?" Implying he was going out.


Haku narrowly reacted to a collaboration technique from both of them....That technique is nothing special when Lee who was really fast had the likes of Temari react to that particular technique even though he was a youngin. Leaf whirlwind has never been noted for its speed considering Lee tried it against Base Sasuke and he easily reacted despite getting blitzed after.

Haku on numerous occasions spoke about Sasuke's speed

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, Zabuza too

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and later used Naruto to draw him near

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. Why would he pull out his ultimate? and use Naruto? Why?

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This scan alone literally killed your post bro. Haku was saving them from Zabuza interfering and truthfully allowing them to live since he had it set in his mind he was NEVER GOING TO KILL THEM ANYWAYS. Sasuke uchiha himself on 2 occasion admitted this, its literally manga fact he never once took them serious.

And incorrect yet again, He perfectly went from a

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to a Blindside from them and

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. Arms literally on his side, like literally!! When

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Lee blind side attack and we all know kisames reaction speed. What? lmao Lee when used it on the sound nin wasn't even remotely serious nor was it a blind side attack nor a real fighting to th edeath moment. really bro??? Lee literally blitz Kisame no diff!!!!!

Haku saying "he's fast" doesn't mean anything at all, it's merely a note! Like me saying a 12 year old runing a 5'0 in a 40 is fast as shit for his age, but NFL players run 4'2 which is the pinnacle of speed! He never stated "Sasuke is the fastest" or "I cannot handle his speed". I can say the same thing, "Why did he pull his ultimate yet spare them on all occasion?" HE IS TOO SOFT!!!

 

[Haizaki]

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This scan alone literally killed your post bro. Haku was saving them from Zabuza interfering and truthfully allowing them to live since he had it set in his mind he was NEVER GOING TO KILL THEM ANYWAYS. Sasuke uchiha himself on 2 occasion admitted this, its literally manga fact he never once took them serious.

He didn't want Zabuza to interfere...How does that mean he himself wasn't going all out himself? He just didn't want to kill them hence the tool he used and him avoiding critical areas. I showed the tool itself and I brought point regarding why he'll use Naruto to get to Sasuke when he could just do it himself.

And incorrect yet again, He perfectly went from a

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to a Blindside from them and

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. Arms literally on his side, like literally!! When

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Lee blind side attack and we all know kisames reaction speed. What? lmao Lee when used it on the sound nin wasn't even remotely serious nor was it a blind side attack nor a real fighting to th edeath moment. really bro??? Lee literally blitz Kisame no diff!!!!!

Lool so we'll stick KN0 Naruto in part 1 being faster than Part 2 Lee and Gai considering he could blitz Haku with no reaction while they couldn't despite being at their fastest Base speed according to this.

Haku saying "he's fast" doesn't mean anything at all, it's merely a note! Like me saying a 12 year old runing a 5'0 in a 40 is fast as shit for his age, but NFL players run 4'2 which is the pinnacle of speed! He never stated "Sasuke is the fastest" or "I cannot handle his speed". I can say the same thing, "Why did he pull his ultimate yet spare them on all occasion?" HE IS TOO SOFT!!!

Him being destroyed and forced out to pull out his ultimate technique increasing his speed shows he was fast..Him stating he has to bring Naruto to draw Sasuke(He stated it to himself). Zabuza called him soft for not letting him interfere. However that translates Haku himself wasn't at his best despite showing the tool that he uses don't have chances of killing if not aimed at a critical area.

Not to mention this is pointless considering my overall point stands. Genin Sasuke would beat Haku considering in his 3T sate, he manhandled KN0 Naruto who blitz the hell out of Haku with no reaction...No excuses for this as Haku noted he lost regardless of killing or no killing. He said he couldn't fight that. Someone Sasuke beat in his Base 3T State...So my point still stands regardless that Part 1 Genin Sasuke was superior to Haku. Not sure why Haku would be stating all these things and not sure why Zabzua in his mind would be talking about how Haku lost in speed when either way he knew this guy wasn't serious.

 

[Apêx1]

- We see different Shinobi's running there as well and I didn't know Naruto and Kiba apparently have the same running speed considering they go there at the same time bottom left

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.

- Uhmm no...The Paper were far to close to Obito compared to the Naruto's case. He was surrounded with multiple paper bombs. Matter of fact you can see what I'm talking about in the top left of this scan...Look how close they are to his face alone

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. Comparing that to the Naruto scenario is wrong.

- We have the fact that Base Jiraiya could evade her paper attacks

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so unless you're willing to tell me here that Base Jiraiya can also react to Naruto's running speed who's apparently slower, not interested.

@bold, I really hope that comparison isn't what I think it is. Telling me Konan raised here hand? Looks like you didn't bother looking at the scan before that did you? She had her hands up already before he could use Kamui so she never raised it up before he could complete it...Top right

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.

Yeah? Don't die lmao. Not to mention, Obito takes longer to warp himself.

-Horrendous counter. They were all standing on the top panel motionlessly while Naruto was running. They all ran by the second panel, but where nowhere near Naruto. I have absolutely NO IDEA how you can sit here telling me Kiba and Naruto showed equal speed when we don't see where Kiba even started from. Makes no sense for you to tell me they showed equal speed when we only see Kiba next to Naruto after Naruto was done, but never saw Kiba's starting location. Not that any of this matters, because this was KCM Naruto's running speed whether you like it or not. KCM Naruto's running speed~Onoki's flight

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. Stop giving your fan-fic feats to S4 and start giving me reaction feats. This isn't the first time I ask so I'm going to assume you concede that they have no sufficient reaction feats if you fail to supply them again.

-Huh? Naruto was closer then the papers are. You don't seem to realise they were attached to his back and the ONLY ones that were behind him were these [

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]. Don't mention the ones shown later because these were the ONLY ones present at this time. And anyways, stop forgetting Konan as to react to Obito's Kamui before she can attach her papers to him.

-And? Base Jiraiya is portrayed on Itachi's tier. Thus they are relatively equal. Itachi kept up with KCM Naruto's movement speed just fine. Not sure why it's far-fetched for Jiraiya to be able to do that feat given those papers were fired from about 15 meters instead of a meter. And they weren't guided. So Jiraiya reacting and dodging is rather within the realms of his potential, not sure why everyone always mentions this as if it's supposed to be some kind of hard counter. Saying Jiraiya gets blitzed from 15 meters by KCM's running speed is far fetched. Saying Sound 4 get blitzed by KCM Naruto's running speed is not, because they are part 1 fodder who'd get blitzed by Base Lee w/ no weights (except Kimimaro and maybe Kidomaru). And Base Lee is definitely not even close to KCM Naruto's running speed.

-You're right on her hand already being there tho.

100% sure I addressed the paper feats because it makes 0 sense that Base Jiraiya can dodge papers that are apparently faster than KCM Naruto's running speed. Kiba getting there at the same time with Naruto puts a major dent on that as well. Not to mention take into consideration the distance here and the fact that she has to prep.


Besides, we have the fact that you didn't take into account that Konan has to go in her paper state from Base

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in order to fire off those paper attacks

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. Plus she has to put chakra into them? From 20M as well? No one would be able to do a thing? Tayuya cannot apparently raise flute? With 4-5people there? Just wow.

And Apex, you conceded to Genjutsu but then still bring it up?

Nope...Tayuya's Genjutsu still prevented Susnaoo from functioning

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. Shikamaru's shadow possession isn't proof that Konan's Jutsu would still function under this circumstances. Not to mention Susnaoo doesn't require bodily movements as seen here

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here

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and many more.


Zeros reasons for me to believe Tayuay's Genjutsu won't prevent Konan when we heave the fact that the shadow neck binding works differently and its endowed with physical strength.



Main thing is where is your proof for Konan's just being able to function under these conditions like the Shadow neck binding? None.

-Addressed

-I suggest you re-read the S4 chapters. It took Tayuya ages to pull out her Flute from her pocket lmfao. Anyways, it won't work on Konan's body and I don't know why you're acting like it takes time for Konan to enter paper mode when she does it instantly

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. And again, someone who pressured Obito can't do that before a part 1 girl can do anything? Interesting logic.

-In the same way Ay's Raiton shroud turned off from Genjutsu, Susano turned off. Those are different from Konan's Dance of the Shinigami which changes her body into paper. In the same way Shikamaru can use chakra to manipulate his shadow whilst in the Genjutsu (chakra is used for it based on Boruto movie) Konan can manipulate her papers. But you're right, Susano doesn't require any bodily movement and Ay's shroud doesn't either. So it might be up to the reader, unless you have some suggestion. BTW in case you don't comprehend what's being said in the DB, being endowed with physical strength means the shadow has physical strength rofl. It's not being endowed with the user's physical energy or anything like that, as that's not stated.

-Doesn't work that way buddy. By that logic I could also say where's your proof Dance of Shinigami works like Susano or Raiton shroud? None. But if anything, it's far more similar to something which has little need for chakra control and amount - Shadows. While Susano and v1/v2 shroud require continuous large amounts of chakra and for that chakra to be controlled ie Susano has a form that needs to be maintained via chakra control, paper form is just her attaching chakra to papers and then controlling the papers with her mind. Similarly to Gaara's sand. There's no chakra control necessity that needs to be maintained, as long as chakra is present on the medium it can be moved around with the mind. But I'm not about to argue that, I'm simply showing you that your logic is flawed since you can interpret it both ways.

 

[Haizaki]

I can't...Jesus. *facepalm*...I'll respond to this nonsense later.

 

[Draegod]

He didn't want Zabuza to interfere...How does that mean he himself wasn't going all out himself? He just didn't want to kill them hence the tool he used and him avoiding critical areas. I showed the tool itself and I brought point regarding why he'll use Naruto to get to Sasuke when he could just do it himself.



Lool so we'll stick KN0 Naruto in part 1 being faster than Part 2 Lee and Gai considering he could blitz Haku with no reaction while they couldn't despite being at their fastest Base speed according to this.




Him being destroyed and forced out to pull out his ultimate technique increasing his speed shows he was fast..Him stating he has to bring Naruto to draw Sasuke(He stated it to himself). Zabuza called him soft for not letting him interfere. However that translates Haku himself wasn't at his best despite showing the tool that he uses don't have chances of killing if not aimed at a critical area.

Not to mention this is pointless considering my overall point stands. Genin Sasuke would beat Haku considering in his 3T sate, he manhandled KN0 Naruto who blitz the hell out of Haku with no reaction...No excuses for this as Haku noted he lost regardless of killing or no killing. He said he couldn't fight that. Someone Sasuke beat in his Base 3T State...So my point still stands regardless that Part 1 Genin Sasuke was superior to Haku. Not sure why Haku would be stating all these things and not sure why Zabzua in his mind would be talking about how Haku lost in speed when either way he knew this guy wasn't serious.

Lmao I literally posted facts from the manga of Sasuke, Zabuza and the Manga it self showing he never took them serious enough to kill ever!! Yet you think he was going all out??? Then you think he switched weapons as if he doesn't always fight with senbons.lol Really?

You can choose to believe what ever you want, manga facts show he never went all out, otherwise they would be dead!!! In the war when he was blood lust why didnt "he use his Ultimate tech". Really??? Just because you see Sharingan doesnt mean kakshi goes all out (even though in part one that was his win condition). just because Oru used Edo tensei on Hiruzen (his best tech arguably) doesn't mean he went all out! Just because Kabuto summons Edo madara doesnt mean he went all out (Still had DSM). Just because Kurama uses TBB starndard his best move doesn't mean he went all out. Do you not here yourself??? Seriously???????????

Serious Haku>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Soft nice Haku based on manga facts it's not even close! He matched Demon mode Zabuza in speed, Reacted to War arc Lee and Gai, Moved faster then 3 TOMOE WAR ARC KAKASHI (HIS STRONGEST VERSION) yet he "went all out when the manga shows and states otherwise...... I'm done! If the manga doesn't work then i'm wasting my time!