Kisame vs MS Madara

[salamander uchiha]

Never claimed Madara didn't have it, im simply saying Madara's physical edge over people doesn't help him in this particular fight due to Kisame canonically having physical and durability feats >= to Madara. Also the point about Guy was implying that Gai (Who is also one of the stronger fighters in this series) was over powered by Kisame easily until gate 6/7.

For you to make such a comparison you need to show both Kisame and Madara in a similar situation and Kisame overcoming it whereas Madara doesn't.

Pure Katon vs Pure water of = Scale means Katon will lose. GSB is just a massacre

There's no such thing as pure katon vs pure water. There's Jyubi sized katon vs normal sized, the collison results in steam. GSBis questionable as it's fearless if I'm being honest. It does have databook hype but since it's untested I'm on the fence.

Genjutsu is the most viable option for Madara but its a matter of how quick Kisame can turn the desert into an ocean (Which he can do VERY FAST). This is why I gave it high difficulty either way.

You're giving it either way is unreasonable, Maybe if it was Hashirama I can understand it going either way it would be difficult for him to use Mokuton in desert.

Since its desert terrain and 15m starting distance I say the fight would depend on how fast Kisame can get his terrain (Ocean/Lake) out.

Desert terrain is hot the advantage goes to Madara.

I give Madara the techincal advantage (MS+Fighting experience) but in reference to overall strength I dont see him overpowering Kisame in terms of CQC.

Once Kisame pulls out the massive scale Ocean terrain I dont see Madara winning with these restrictions. Susanoo can tank the 100+ water sharks but its not a submarine.

You act as if Madara who even as being blind can over power SM enhanced users can't over power Kisame. Anyway katon evaporates water especially in the desert(heat), oh and Madara wouldn't just stand around while Kisame does his "100 shark bombs."

 

[Animegoin]

He can create a lake out of nothing,

Remember he created a Lake with a 30% clone over a desert terrain in part 1

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Fair enough, although that variant isn’t the “great” variation that Happy pointed out. 30% chakra or not.

 

[Happy Medium]

that variant isn’t the “great” variation that Happy pointed out; 30% chakra or not.

I was thinking the same thing as I read that scan. But you know what, I see a logical pattern that I'd like to address. 30% Kisame used that technique without showing any exhaustion. This is purely speculation, but I'm going to guess that this technique took at least 15% of his chakra out of him. Using panel-scaling (that I don't feel like getting right now lol), that "great" variation I reference in my post might consume two, three, or four times as much chakra as it's sibling jutsu. 15 x 2 = 30%, 15 x 3 = 45%, 15 x 4 = 60%. So by using

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, he could consume at least 30, 45, or 60% of his chakra, leaving him 70, 55, or 40% of his chakra left, which is a fair amount and doesn't take into consideration the chakra he would be absorbing from Madara through the technique.

 

[DHOH]

The location is the desert lmao, Kisame isn’t pulling that off. Not to mention that if Madara has his gunbai (which he will), that technique is negged. Also, Kisame is susceptible to sharingan genjutsu.



There is now lol

Kisame has shown on multiple occasions that he doesn’t need a water source to make plenty of water.

 

[Zexion~]

I was thinking the same thing as I read that scan. But you know what, I see a logical pattern that I'd like to address. 30% Kisame used that technique without showing any exhaustion. This is purely speculation, but I'm going to guess that this technique took at least 15% of his chakra out of him. Using panel-scaling (that I don't feel like getting right now lol), that "great" variation I reference in my post might consume two, three, or four times as much chakra as it's sibling jutsu. 15 x 2 = 30%, 15 x 3 = 45%, 15 x 4 = 60%. So by using

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, he could consume at least 30, 45, or 60% of his chakra, leaving him 70, 55, or 40% of his chakra left, which is a fair amount and doesn't take into consideration the chakra he would be absorbing from Madara through the technique.

What is this? Kisame has tailed beast level chakra, the doppelganger jutsu doesn't just place a cap on your chakra like a mathematical equation it simply means your entire power is at 30% unless you're going to sit here and tell me activating MS takes more than 30% of Itachi's chakra as he couldn't even use it with the jutsu, when clearly his fight with Sasuke makes that statement impossible. Please don't bring any more calculations into it as it just looks foolish.

 

[Happy Medium]

What is this? Kisame has tailed beast level chakra, the doppelganger jutsu doesn't just place a cap on your chakra like a mathematical equation it simply means your entire power is at 30% unless you're going to sit here and tell me activating MS takes more than 30% of Itachi's chakra as he couldn't even use it with the jutsu, when clearly his fight with Sasuke makes that statement impossible. Please don't bring any more calculations into it as it just looks foolish.

No, Kisame does not have tailed-beast level chakra, he has tailed-beast level chakra volumes. They created that doppelganger using 30% of Kisame's chakra, so I assumed that the doppelganger capacitates whatever 30% of Kisame equates to. Given the size of the jutsu that the doppelganger used, I estimated that he put at least 15% chakra into the technique, which takes away from the 30% he already capacitates. It's not like the doppelganger has unlimited chakra, but he's also a fraction of Kisame, so using jutsu of that extent is going to take something, if anything, out of him. I might have been wrong when I said 15% because it was just speculation, but the method I employed is still viable. If the technique takes 15% out of 30% Kisame, it's going to take 15% out of 100% Kisame, and a technique with double, triple, or quadruple the chakra consumption is going to take an even higher percentage out of Kisame's 100%. Again, my numbers might be way too high, but it's just an example. I'm not sure about the whole Itachi thing because I'm not sure exactly what you're talking about, but I'm pretty sure they had to take a higher amount of chakra from Itachi for the doppelganger because he has way less chakra than Kisame. If you weren't referring to his doppelganger that fought Kakashi and Naruto, then I don't know what you mean. But MS does rapidly consume chakra; maybe less than 30%, maybe more, but it does consume a lot.

 

[Zexion~]

No, Kisame does not have tailed-beast level chakra, he has tailed-beast level chakra volumes. They created that doppelganger using 30% of Kisame's chakra, so I assumed that the doppelganger capacitates whatever 30% of Kisame equates to. Given the size of the jutsu that the doppelganger used, I estimated that he put at least 15% chakra into the technique, which takes away from the 30% he already capacitates. It's not like the doppelganger has unlimited chakra, but he's also a fraction of Kisame, so using jutsu of that extent is going to take something, if anything, out of him. I might have been wrong when I said 15% because it was just speculation, but the method I employed is still viable. If the technique takes 15% out of 30% Kisame, it's going to take 15% out of 100% Kisame, and a technique with double, triple, or quadruple the chakra consumption is going to take an even higher percentage out of Kisame's 100%. Again, my numbers might be way too high, but it's just an example. I'm not sure about the whole Itachi thing because I'm not sure exactly what you're talking about, but I'm pretty sure they had to take a higher amount of chakra from Itachi for the doppelganger because he has way less chakra than Kisame. If you weren't referring to his doppelganger that fought Kakashi and Naruto, then I don't know what you mean. But MS does rapidly consume chakra; maybe less than 30%, maybe more, but it does consume a lot.

No idea what you're saying but Itachi states that the entire jutsu is proportionate

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In reality all it means is that the original jutsu are on a much more potent scale than that of the doppelgangers lol.

 

[Happy Medium]

No idea what you're saying but Itachi states that the entire jutsu is proportionate

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In reality all it means is that the original jutsu are on a much more potent scale than that of the doppelgangers lol.

The only reason they'd have a greater scale is because the original has a greater amount of chakra, which I thought was fairly obvious. That wasn't the point of my post...

 

[Zexion~]

The only reason they'd have a greater scale is because the original has a greater amount of chakra, which I thought was fairly obvious. That wasn't the point of my post...

Your original post was trying to make calculations about how much Kisame could do based off what he did with 30% which is false lol never was he exhausted, never did he use up too much chakra the 30% clones just have all of their abilities scaled down to having 30% power/chakra.

Kisame has tailed beast level reserves as well as the ability to constantly replenish chakra so I don't know why Stamina is being argued here Madara is no where near especially with plain MS.

 

[Happy Medium]

Your original post was trying to make calculations about how much Kisame could do based off what he did with 30% which is false lol never was he exhausted, never did he use up too much chakra the 30% clones just have all of their abilities scaled down to having 30% power/chakra.

Kisame has tailed beast level reserves as well as the ability to constantly replenish chakra so I don't know why Stamina is being argued here Madara is no where near especially with plain MS.

Huh. I just thought they were scaled down because the doppelgangers had more limited chakra. Alright, I concede.

 

[Uverdore9]

On the contrary, Madara has enough stamina to capacitate Dual Rinnegan, when even a single Rinnegan nearly drove Obito insane:

Spoiler

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And where do you get the idea that Madara isn't extremely durable?

He tanks a kick from Tsunade, although you could accredit that to his Edo Tensei I suppose:

Spoiler

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However, while he was alive, Blind Madara tanked countless hits from each of the Tailed Beasts, and lost nothing but an arm:

Spoiler

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Don't get me start on quantifying the weight of the Tailed Beasts tails, and the force of their punches/attacks, or the amount of pressure placed on Madara once he was encompassed in the sand pyramid.

Madara tanked a kick; true, but that was from Base Tsunade. SM Enhancements assisted him in taking the brunt of the Biju's Strikes. + Edo Madara is a stronger version of his Prime living self.

 

[Happy Medium]

Madara tanked a kick; true, but that was from Base Tsunade. SM Enhancements assisted him in taking the brunt of the Biju's Strikes. + Edo Madara is a stronger version of his Prime living self.

The Madara that tanked the Tailed Beasts tails wasn't Edo Madara. And the Hashirama on his chest wasn't in Sage Mode, so he was not benefited from extra durability of any kind...

 

[Uverdore9]

The Madara that tanked the Tailed Beasts tails wasn't Edo Madara. And the Hashirama on his chest wasn't in Sage Mode, so he was not benefited from extra durability of any kind...

Edo+Living Version prowess combined = The Madara that fought the Tailed Beasts.

@bold: Actually it was. Look at the Markings in his face.

 

[Calpal]

Literally would’ve been such a cool mfn fight but not feasible.

Although I’m under the impression that madara would win

 

[MissingFUCKINGnin]

Madara wins, neg diff. Everything suggests that Kisame is susceptible to genjutsu.

Samehada would free kisame from genjutsu

 

[MissingFUCKINGnin]

Kisame wins low-mid diff...

Madara literally cant put him down in his real form without PS... kisame will just regen with samehada... all jutsu will be absorbed, and madara cant h2h kisame without getting his shit pushed in..


Kisame also has giant water dome and shark mode to neg madara

 

[Ninetailsfox00x1]

Madara can maybe blitz Kisame if he lusted.

If not he can mid diff him. Water Dome GSB is only thing to worry about