Kisame vs Minato

[Private Investigator]

Except he himself states it takes too long to knead chakra, logically he didnt just knead chakra in that second and use it as that goes against everything he stated. Logically he would have been trying to knead chakra from before that moment he entered SM.

. . .

In every instance of a character gathering natural energy for SM, they've always assumed a mantle of meditation; all except Kabuto who passively, and consistently absorbed natural energy due to implanting Jugo's clan ability. Minato did no such thing, as he had no time to do such.

 

[Zexion~]

:lol @ making this post when Minato is a sensor.

And if this is Manga intel then this match ends less than 5 minutes after it begins. There is no scenario where Kisame with Manga intel gets to use Water Dome. Manga intel=No sufficient intel on Minato. No sufficient intel=Minato engages Kisame long before Water Dome becomes a thought=Minato kills him.

1000 feeding sharks would all form in the same general vicinity. Sure, after they are formed they can swim around and try to flank Gamabunta, but it's not like that matters since there are 3 toads and Minato has Ma and Pa.

And the restraining factor doesn't prevent Fukasaku, Shima, and Gamabunta from using Ninjutsu.

But again, with intel Minato teleports away. Without it this never happens as there's no conceivable way for Kisame to reach WD w/o intel on Hiraishin. Obito was Minato's student and still fell for Hiraishin V2, so I don't want to hear anything about Manga intel Kisame being aware enough of Minato's abilities to do what you are saying he'll do from the start.

:lol when Minato has shown crummy sensing that requires focus, drowning in a WD throwing kunai facing off against Kisame in a hectic scenario and he's going to sense? He also can't stop every clone at once so this is pointless clones produce the prison the second they reach the kunai.

Obito had no WD option why the hell would you even bring that up? :lol he has intangibility and he tried that and it failed, Kisame always spawns water again I don't know why the hell you think he won't go WD after one instance of seeing Minato's speed. How does intel mean Minato teleports away, to where? Outside markings? Okay, and he'll come back into the water dome if not its basically a surrender.

Again those sharks have teeth and there is a thousand of them, one of them can chomp on that tongue which is the only useful jutsu here, not to mention Kisame takes ALL of these summons out with little effort so if it comes down to it he simply takes them out in less than a minute by absorbing their chakra and summons the sharks after. Minato could try to escape here but I don't see how if all these summons are being summoned together, if he gets close enough a GSB could take them all out in one go with no time for S/T barrier. If he tries to attack its a meaningless game of tag that provides nothing but dead summons and a drowning Minato.

Water Dome ends this match, and saying he won't use it is like saying Nagato wouldn't use CT here yet its used in every single debate PLUS there is the advantage that Kisame has a massive amount of chakra and it wouldn't phase him in the slightest.


Edit- Jesus christ didn't see this thread got so popular

 

[Private Investigator]

-Irrelevant-

Kisame won't have the chance to use Water Dome/Samehada fusion. Minato's FTG - Kunai application is too quick. Arguing past this is fruitless.

. . .

 

[RedRobin]

. . .

No time? Madara and Obito were having a whole conversation in that chapter. While Kakashi and Gaara were already planning an attack.

If Minato could muster up senjustu in an instance I would call him a great senjustu user except he outright stated it takes too long. Whatever you are trying to prove here does not fall in line with the manga.

Minato throughout this conversation stood still and said nothing, he could have easily been trying to muster up senjustu for an attack that Gaara and Kakashi were already planning.

 

[Zexion~]

-Irrelevant-

Distance is 35 meters, Kisame will be underwater by then and I don't see why Minato would use V2 FTG right off the bat and not just engage in CQC with shunshin.

Also no guarantee he's going for the decapitation here and not a rasengan or any other pointless attack that Kisame tanks. Due to Minato having no intel on Kisame he's not going to bother marking him either so from there he spawns up the WD.

 

[TRE MERCER]

. . .

Who is this guy?

 

[RedRobin]

Who is this guy?

He is a PI of course.

 

[NarutoX28]

In every instance of a character gathering natural energy for SM, they've always assumed a mantle of meditation; all except Kabuto who passively, and consistently absorbed natural energy due to implanting Jugo's clan ability. Minato did no such thing, as he had no time to do such.

Minato explicitly stated how it required an extensive amount of time to even use Sage Mode and consistencies are present throughout the manga such as Obito's ability to inflict damage towards Kakashi despite part of his body being phased through his Doton Wall. Consistencies are present throughout the manga, so they do not invalidate a blatant statement made towards the reader.

 

[Private Investigator]

No time? Madara and Obito were having a whole conversation in that chapter. While Kakashi and Gaara were already planning an attack.

If Minato could muster up senjustu in an instance I would call him a great senjustu user except he outright stated it takes too long. Whatever you are trying to prove here does not fall in line with the manga.

Minato throughout this conversation stood still and said nothing, he could have easily been trying to muster up senjustu for an attack that Gaara and Kakashi were already planning.

You must be registered for see images

Minato was busy administrating the other half of Kurama into Naruto.

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

Someone so inefficient in melding natural energy could not build up the chakra while expunging chakra. Kakashi mentioned Gaara's name several times; Minato's was never mentioned in regards to the plan. Why is that.

 

[Zexion~]

You must be registered for see images

Def some MF from NF :lol you can just tell by the way he posts.

 

[Private Investigator]

Spoiler

Distance is 35 meters, Kisame will be underwater by then and I don't see why Minato would use V2 FTG right off the bat and not just engage in CQC with shunshin.

Also no guarantee he's going for the decapitation here and not a rasengan or any other pointless attack that Kisame tanks. Due to Minato having no intel on Kisame he's not going to bother marking him either so from there he spawns up the WD.

I'm inclined to believe this battle is out of character. As everyone is implying things would go a certain way without factoring things IC. The way VS threads should be is out of character regardless, especially when nothing of mindset is specified.

You subtlety imply in the underlined that if Minato used V2 he'd be able to hit Kisame. Concession accepted.

Spoiler

Minato explicitly stated how it required an extensive amount of time to even use Sage Mode and consistencies are present throughout the manga such as Obito's ability to inflict damage towards Kakashi despite part of his body being phased through his Doton Wall. Consistencies are present throughout the manga, so they do not invalidate a blatant statement made towards the reader.

Inconsistencies are littered throughout the manga.
Itachi stating he and Kisame together probably could not defeat Jiraiya.
Hiruzen being called a greater Hokage than Hashirama, Tobirama, and Minato.
Kakashi saying that Naruto was on par or even surpassed Minato before he even learned Sage Mode. I'm referring to when Naruto defeated Kakuzu.
Kakashi's stamina/chakra levels.

. . .

 

[RedRobin]

You must be registered for see images

No Black Zestu had already stolen the other half of Kurama when Madara talked with Obito which is the situation I was talking about, Minato at that point was not doing anything but standing still.

I specifically used the word 'could' because I am not claiming Minato actually did that, I am not Kishimoto so I am not going to state something outright happened. It is a theory that he was kneading chakra throughout the conversation before being able to go into SM.

This theory makes way more sense than your claim he did in an instance when he had already stated it took time.

 

[Private Investigator]

No Black Zestu had already stolen the other half of Kurama when Madara talked with Obito which is the situation I was talking about, Minato at that point was not doing anything but standing still.

I specifically used the word 'could' because I am not claiming Minato actually did do that, I am not Kishimoto so I am not going to state something outright happened. It is a theory that he was kneading chakra throughout the conversation before being able to go into SM.

This theory makes way more sense than your claim he did in an instance when he had already stated it took time.

. . .

Yes, Black Zetsu did take away the chakra. I am not denying this. But Minato did attempt to administer the Kyuubi's chakra, and then formed a rasengan in attempt to counter-attack Black Zetsu.

Not when I've presented a list of inconsistencies on Kishimoto's part. Minato very well could have performed SM nigh instantly, with the induction of a second, or two. He wasn't keyed into Kakashi, and Gaara's plan from what we've seen canonically as Kakashi kept informing Gaara, not Minato who'd just appeared from Naruto's side.

 

[RedRobin]

. . .

Thats great and all but I am talking about after that happened in which Minato was not doing anything but standing still. (Chapter 665)

Except him doing it nigh instantly is literally against Minato outright stating it takes time. Again my theory of him having kneaded it during the conversation between Madara and Obito in chapter 665 makes more sense than your claim.

 

[NarutoX28]

Not when I've presented a list of inconsistencies on Kishimoto's part. Minato very well could have performed SM nigh instantly, with the induction of a second, or two. He wasn't keyed into Kakashi, and Gaara's plan from what we've seen canonically as Kakashi kept informing Gaara, not Minato who'd just appeared from Naruto's side.

Except the inconsistency wasn't the fact that Minato performed SM nigh instantly, it was the fact that Minato didn't partake in a meditative stance.

 

[Private Investigator]

Thats great and all but I am talking about after that happened in which Minato was not doing anything but standing still. (Chapter 665)

Except him doing it nigh instantly is literally against Minato outright stating it takes time. Again my theory on him having kneaded it during the conversation between Madara and Obito in chapter 665 makes more sense than your claim.

. . .

The absence of evidence is the evidence of absence. The evidence we do have is that Minato used SM nigh instantly (granted we can say it took him several seconds to administer). The evidence we don't have is that Minato was gathering natural energy from the moment Zetsu appeared, to when he attacked Madara.

Evidence > Absence.

 

[Forbidden Technique]

Lol what kind of stupid argument is this? Two objects fusing together doesn't mean that every single property of the two objects is present in the new object. Don't be stupid now. Like I said, to cut or pierce Kisame has to actually form blades from his body. So why would I assume he's as durable as Samehada was?

Oh wait, I wouldn't. So you have no point. End of story.

Wtf? Those spikes from his body were hard enough to pierce through Bee's V1 cloak... Not possible if they weren't solid enough. Bee's sword could not cut through the spikes either. They are literally merging bodies. It is very illogical to say that Kisame doesn't gain some durability from Samehada, when it is also Samehada's exterior armor/skin as well.

Between Kisamehada's body having no weak points for Minato to aim at, added durability, the capability of healing injuries, and being able to erect spikes out his body for added defensive purposes... Minato has zero chance of putting down Kisamehada, especially under water. Then we have the fact that any slight physical contact equates to Minato getting his chakra drained at a rapid rate, so tagging him comes at a huge expense.

 

[Private Investigator]

Except the inconsistency wasn't the fact that Minato performed SM nigh instantly, it was the fact that Minato didn't partake in a meditative stance.

. . .

So you agree Minato performed SM instantly. The underlined segment implies you do.

 

[RedRobin]

. . .

I made my case. I dont have anything else to say.

 

[KCN]

There has to be a chakra link since it let's Minato teleport to things it's in contact with. There would be no purpose in Minato saying he can teleport things his chakra is directly connected to but ill drop the argument if you can prove that it doesn't require a chakra link to ftg seal. No that's not like saying he'd be able to absorb Bee seal off him. Since what im implying is he'll absorb the chakra out of the seal which would mean Minato can teleport to the seal. Absorbing bee seal would have to be actually absorbing the seal as a whole which he can't. It's not like even if i was wrong it would change the dynamic of this battle.


1- That was a 30% Kisame clone if it were the real Kisame it would be a different outcome.
2- We can't even see how close Kisame blade was in the first place
3- Gai leg was shown in movement in his panel so that is irrelevant.


Not a good idea but ok.

I won't address the first bit as you've already conceded that point. Smart move, because it's a ridiculous argument tbh.

30% Kisame or not, I don't understand why you're comparing Gai's form of speed to Minato's when it's a completely different ballgame. Minato outmanoeuvred Ay and Obito in close quarters with Hiraishin, two individuals with significantly higher reflexes than Kisame, yet I'm supposed to believe Kisame's going to react when as far as I recall, his only credible evasive feat is dodging a ration pencil. If Kisame engages Minato in CQC the only possible outcome of that scenario is him being tagged and blitzed. You're gonna have to basically prove that without sufficient knowledge, Kisame somehow reacts better than Ay. It's been shown that Minato can attack his opponent near enough to instantly while marked [

You must be registered for see links

]/[

You must be registered for see links

] when Minato concentrates on attacking, so Kisame gets blitzed with no reaction here. Fighting a teleporter isn't the same.

I'm not gonna address the Gai thing again, when the anime clears it up and the scan is literally right there. Kisame's blade was inches above his head, and Gai only began to swing his foot after Kisame attacked first.