Kisame vs Minato

[KidGamer65]

Well he doesnt have a neck anymore.

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He does, it's just smaller and covered by that fin. So I guess Minato will have to attack another area.

 

[Private Investigator]

Spoiler

Well he doesnt have a neck anymore. Lol

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He does, it's just smaller and covered by that fin. So I guess Minato will have to attack another area.

Kisame won't have the chance to use Water Dome/Samehada fusion. Minato's FTG - Kunai application is too quick. Arguing past this is fruitless.

. . .

 

[NarutoX28]

@ bold: what are you basing that information on?

Yes, we're aware of this godly speed that he already possesses. Now how do we compare the two in a given scenario?

This is explicitly stated upon the concept of Sage Mode being introduced to its reader:

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And even within its Databook Entry:

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Sage* Mode (仙人モード, Sennin Mo-do)
Senjutsu, No rank, Supplementary
User: Jiraiya

The lion-like child of the toads is overflowing with spirit!!
Wielding the "senjutsu" that surpasses ninjutsu!!

The form form Jiraiya showed to use senjutsu during his decisive battle with Pain. He summons the Two Great Toad Sages from Mt. Myouboku into his body and by borrowing their power, his body absorbs a great amount of "nature energy". By kneading this with his own chakra, he gains the ability to use senjutsu (仙術, Sage Techniques), rapidly increasing the level of all techniques, be it ninjutsu, taijutsu, or genjutsu!! By uniting with the Two Great Toad Sages into one body, they can cooperate like a Trinity. This is certainly the domain of Sages.

[picture of Jiraiya drawing an extra line on his face with his blood]
→↓He Draws a line under both his eyes using his own blood. Using this as a substitute for the "contract seal of blood,"** he can summon the legendary Two Great Toad Sages into his own body.
[picture of Jiraiya in Sage Mode, with Fukasaku and Shima on his shoulders]

*Sennin (仙人, "sage") are a kind of immortal super-humans from Chinese and Japanese mythology. They are basically humans (or the spirits of humans) that have lived as hermits and have become so great that they gained the power to perform certain miracles and became immortal. One of the most famous Sennin is the Gama Sennin, or Toad Sage, from whom Jiraiya got his nickname.
**Keiyaku no Keppan (契約の血判); the blood one needs to sacrifice before summoning something.

Hashirama, who also possesses no such feats also obtains the same benefits in terms of speed while using Sage Mode:

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Hermit Sorcery
稀代の木遁忍術だけではなく、忍・体・幻全ての「術」を飛躍的に底上げする「仙術」まで会得し た柱間。
In addition to the rare Mokuton Ninja Art, Hashirama mastered “Hermit Sorcery”, which raised the bar for all stealth, corporeal, and illusion arts.
本来、戦闘中に仙術チャクラを練ることは困難を極めるが、柱間は瞬時に”仙人モード”となるこ とが可能だ。
Although it is normally extremely difficult to exercise chakras for hermit sorcery in battle, Hashirama has the abitily to instantly enter “Hermit Mode”.

I'm honestly not sure how you could even believe that Sage Mode wouldn't increase his capabilities. As for the comparison, I've already elaborated on that within my previous post.

 

[RedRobin]

This is explicitly stated upon the concept of Sage Mode being introduced to its reader:

Spoiler

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And even within its Databook Entry:


Hashirama, who also possesses no such feats also obtains the same benefits in terms of speed while using Sage Mode:


I'm honestly not sure how you could even believe that Sage Mode wouldn't increase his capabilities. As for the comparison, I've already elaborated on that within my previous post.

SM for Minato shouldnt really be argued anyway, he himself stated he couldnt use it very well and hadnt ever actually used it in a battle.

Spoiler

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[Jugram Haschwalth]

"Jinton is a Fusion of elements, thus it has the traits of all the separate elements."

That is your logic. I'll just let you figure out how ridiculous that line of thinking is on your own.

Completely different since those are elements and combinations of elements can make up new elements so this is an absolutely terrible example but hey at least you tried.

How about this is. A human was fused with a wrecking ball do you think you be able to slit there throat with a knife nope.

 

[NarutoX28]

SM for Minato shouldnt really be argued anyway, he himself stated he couldnt use it very well and hadnt ever actually used it in a battle.

Spoiler

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I'm aware of that, I was arguing how Sage Mode would be ineffective against Kisame. What you're referring to is the practicality of the technique for Minato whereas I'm trying to argue as to whether or not Sage Mode would help Minato provided he manages to enter that state.

 

[RedRobin]

I'm aware of that. TBogard has used it plenty of times. However, it doesn't explain the fact that Pa/Ma have expressed having no knowledge of Minato whatsoever. Secondly, it was stated that they're no ordinary summonings and if I remember correctly only Jman possessed that ability.

When did that happen?

Judging from Naruto's training and Jman's usage of SM it seems only Pa teaches it so if Minato knows it then he should know Pa.

 

[NarutoX28]

Completely different since those are elements and combinations of elements can make up new elements so this is an absolutely terrible example but hey at least you tried.

How about this is. A human was fused with a wrecking ball do you think you be able to slit there throat with a knife nope.

It's a fictional universe, so the concept of fusion isn't required to be dictated by logic in the first place.

 

[RedRobin]

I'm aware of that, I was arguing how Sage Mode would be ineffective against Kisame. What you're referring to is the practicality of the technique for Minato whereas I'm trying to argue as to whether or not Sage Mode would help Minato provided he manages to enter that state.

Yeah SM would increase anyone's abilities if they could use it properly which Minato states himself that he cannot.

 

[Mellow]

Minato high diff

 

[NarutoX28]

Yeah SM would help increase anyone's abilities if they could use it properly which Minato states himself that he cannot.

Minato stated that he couldn't use it properly due to his inability to quickly knead Senjutsu Chakra, but that proposition doesn't make sense to begin with because the completion of producing Senjutsu Chakra is what bolsters Minato's capabilities, something he's capable of accomplishing considering that Minato stated that it required an extensive amount of time in order to accomplish that.

 

[TRE MERCER]

The whole Kisame samehada argument is stupid we can see Samehada scales on Kisame body

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[RedRobin]

Minato stated that he couldn't use it properly due to his inability to quickly knead Senjutsu Chakra, but that proposition doesn't make sense to begin with because the completion of producing Senjutsu Chakra is what bolsters Minato's capabilities, something he's capable of accomplishing considering that Minato stated that it required an extensive amount of time in order to accomplish that.

I am not understanding what you are trying to say. He states it takes too long to knead senjustu chakra and then he cant maintain the form for long as well.

 

[NarutoX28]

I am not understanding what you are trying to say. He states it takes too long to knead senjustu chakra and then he cant maintain the form for long as well.

I'm confused. Weren't you claiming that Sage Mode wouldn't enhance his capabilities because he can't use it properly?

 

[makosheva7]

With full intel Kisame wins. With manga intel Kisame dies before he can fuse with Samehada.

 

[RedRobin]

I'm confused. Weren't you claiming that Sage Mode wouldn't enhance his capabilities because he can't use it properly?

Not exactly I was trying to say that yes Senjustu chakra would increase anyone's abilities if its something they could use properly. Properly meaining Minato would get an increase in power but he cannnot hold it anyway so it would be pointless to argue about his increase in power when he doesnt have control over it.

 

[NarutoX28]

Not exactly I was trying to say that yes Senjustu chakra would increase anyone's abilities if its something they could use properly. Properly meaining Minato would get an increase in power but he cannnot hold it anyway so it would be pointless to argue about his increase in power when he doesnt have control over it.

All right, that makes sense.

 

[RedRobin]

All right, that makes sense.

Really though? Lol Cool.

 

[Private Investigator]

Not exactly I was trying to say that yes Senjustu chakra would increase anyone's abilities if its something they could use properly. Properly meaining Minato would get an increase in power but he cannnot hold it anyway so it would be pointless to argue about his increase in power when he doesnt have control over it.

. . .

Minato is capable of using SM, as seen in the war. However, he does not due to not being able to sustain it for long periods of time; cause being his inefficiency with the mode. This doesn't disregard Minato from being able to utilize the stat increase SM clearly grants to initiate a swift assault. Especially when capable of OHKO his opponent.

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[RedRobin]

. . .

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Except he himself states it takes too long to knead chakra, logically he didnt just knead chakra in that second and use it as that goes against everything he stated. Logically he would have been trying to knead chakra from before that moment he entered SM.