sigh just looking at this whole thing just made me tired and gave me a headache... you dont really provide any good arguements at all.. all you do is discredit everyone but Itachi by asking questions and making statements like "for all we know Kin Gin attacked Tobirama from behind" (as if the 2nd Hokage is a noob and would be attacked from behind).. or "Kisame is an expert on sharingan and he's not Itachis docter" (well it doesnt take an expert to know that high level jutsus have high level risks.. Kisame worked very closely with Itachi so he would know alot more about him than most).. and thats the difference between you and me.. you only discredit arguements by asking unimportant questions that cant be answered while i provide proof and examples from the manga to support my arguements..
but anyways .... ill very briefly respond each point you make
Kin Gin would beat Itachi.. Itachi is outnumbered.. it is key when fighting an Uchiha to outnumber him.. if Itachi use Tsukiyomi one of the bros can cancel it.. Kakashi said Tsukiyomi cant be cancelled but Hachibi had cancelled Tsukiyomi for Bee so Kakashi was wrong.. anyways did anybody even try to cancel Tsukiyomi for Kakashi when he was in it? no.. so Kakashi was wrong.. Amaterasu is easy to dodge and deflect. Sasuke dodged it, Gaara deflected it, Raikage punched through it like it didnt even matter.. Sasuno is a good defense.. Itachis Sasuno has the sealing sword and impenatrable shield.. but Sasuno cannot last forever and Itachi using Sasuno will weaken and drain him significantly...
Itachi is fast.. we dont really know the speed of Kin Gin to know how they match up with Itachi in speed but being fast doesnt garuntee a win.. Shikumaru was never fast at all and did most of his fighting staying still but he did well because of his intelligence.. Gaara is also a still fighter and not very fast unless flying on his sand cloud.. puppet masters Kankuro, Sasori and Chiyo are all still fighters but they are excellent at chakra control and win because of how they control puppets.. speed helps but it isnt everything.. besides Itachi wasnt even the fastest character.. Sasuke was faster than Itachi..
Itachi is smart but hes not a psychic or mind reader.. he can look into the future.. he is nowhere near the level of Kakashi or Shikumaru.. whats the smartest thing Itachi's done? pretend to lose a fight? prepare Sasuke with an amaterasu to attack Madara with it? which failed btw.. wow guess Itachi isnt much of a good planner huh.. Itachi plans ahead but Sasuke was steps ahead in him in certain parts of the fight.. Sasuke set up Itachi up and waited for him to use amaterasu before using Oros clone jutsu.. Sasuke pretended to aim his fireballs at Itachi but was aiming for the sky to set up the Kiri.. Itachi didnt see any of that coming.. but lucky for him he had Sasuno or like he said he would have died being hit by Kiri.. but even Sasuke showed to be a better stragitist than Itachi.. all Itachi planned for was to lure Oro out and die.. not much brain power needed.. just fight Sasuke till he's at his limit, seal Oro and die.. wow how genuis...
we dont know how smart Kin Gin are but people are making them out to be dumb muscles.. they portray nothing of the sort.. they organized a coup detat, which though was unsuccessful but nonetheless showed they are capable of planning and organizing.. there's a group called the Cloud Kinkaku force which had troubled the 2nd Hokage during war.. many beleive the Kinkaku force are responsible for the 2nds death.. one of the Kin Gin is named Kinkaku and some even believe hes responsible for 2nds death.. he may very well be.. he and his bro already fought the 2nd Hokage and Raikage and left 2nd Hokage near death.. so maybe during war Kinkaku came more prepared and killed 2nd Hokage...
the Kin Gin uses 4 of the 5 Ultimate Treasures that the SO6P himself used.. they, so far as we know, are the only ones able to use them.. able to bind, curse, seal and use attacks in all 5 elements.. many say Itachi is too fast to hit with the rope.. well we've seen many times Itachi got hit.. Kakashi uppercut him from underground, Naruto Rasengan him a couple of times, Sasuke chidori him, hit him with Kiri.. Itachi isnt un-hittable peoples.. hes no Madara/Tobi, able to use space time.. hes no Pain, pushing and pulling people around... but even if Itachi never gets hit the Kin Gin still have more up their sleeves than we've seen.. they can use the fan to hit him with combinations of any 5 elements.. also their may be more things they can do we havent seen yet..
but if Itachi does get hit than his soul is curse automatically.. Itachi will be forced to talk carefully and not say his word.. but thats if Itachi even knows their techniques and stragedy which he wont.. alot of people didnt know and only reason Samui knew is because she researched on them.. but that didnt stop her from getting seal.. she didnt even say her curse word.. so Itachi doesnt even have to say his word to be sealed.. and thats another reason Itachi would most likely be cursed and hit by the rope because Itachi wouldnt even know the powers of the Ultimate Treasures...
this is for the "we dont know Itachis max power" excuse that Itachi fanboys love to say over and over.. Itachi at max is not invicible.. he proabably isnt even that much stronger at max when he fought Sasuke. when fighting Sasuke he was sick, on meds to stay alive. Zetsu noticed Itachi wasnt fighting his usual self also.. but the only sure thing we know about Itachi at max is that he would have been able to dodge Sasuke's windmill shuriken.. thats all.. no big deal.. Itachi at max is just able to dodge shurikens a lil bit better than when hes sick...
you're right. It's going back and forth way too much for it to be an argument, but I do have something to comment about the first quote: the reason why I was saying the he was caught from behind or whatever is because I was being ironic and referencing to the fact that you were doing the same thing. I admit to doing it, now you should look at your posts to see if you really provide your arguments with information.
"if Itachi use Tsukiyomi one of the bros can cancel it.. Kakashi said Tsukiyomi cant be cancelled but Hachibi had cancelled Tsukiyomi for Bee so Kakashi was wrong.. " - Well I guess you already know that Sasuke's tsukyiomi is much weaker than Itachi's, but also Hachibi being a host, his beast felt when he was under a genjutsu. However, in a normal fight, like Itachi vs Kakashi, did Asuma and Kurenai notice that he was in a genjutsu? It was literally less than a second long in the real world. I strongly believe that it is impossible for one of the brothers to notice that the other one is in a genjutsu and go to him to insert chakra into his body. Also as I said before, even if they would be fast enough to stop, Itachi would get some good hours of torture, which, as you can see when vs Kakashi, it can be quite painful.
"anyways did anybody even try to cancel Tsukiyomi for Kakashi when he was in it? no.. " - If you do remember, Asuma and Kurenai said that he stopped talking and he just fell down afterwards. It's true that they had their eyes closed at the time, but I'm trying to prove that it takes so little time to torture someone in a genjutsu for 72 hours. And Kurenai, being a genjutsu-based ninja was surprised as well.
"Amaterasu is easy to dodge and deflect. Sasuke dodged it, Gaara deflected it, Raikage punched through it like it didnt even matter.." - no conflict here. Amaterasu is easy to dodge by any high-class ninja. But I still don't like you comparing Sasuke's amaterasu to itachi's. There's no proof, but seeing how sasuke's susano'o and tsukyiomi were weaker than itachi's at that point, we can safely assume that amaterasu was weaker as well.
"Itachis Sasuno has the sealing sword and impenatrable shield.. but Sasuno cannot last forever and Itachi using Sasuno will weaken and drain him significantly..." - But Susano'o can do the job because it has the perfect offense and defense and it's very fast. How do we know this? Well Itachi was able to summon susano'o in the amount of time it took a lightning to travel from the sasuke was to where itachi was.
"speed helps but it isnt everything.. besides Itachi wasnt even the fastest character.. Sasuke was faster than Itachi.." - true, speed alone doesn't decide a battle, but it's quite important as a factor in the sum of all factors. We know that Itachi is fast because Kakashi's sharingan wasn't even able to pick his hand seals. And Kakashi's sharingan was really evolved. So that should say enough about Itachi's speed. I can assume that he is faster than the brothers from what we've seen, but then again I may be wrong. We don't know yet. I don't recall sasuke being faster than Itachi, when they fought, but I can not really argue about that because I don't remember. Maybe someone can bring proof.
"Itachi is smart but hes not a psychic or mind reader.. he can look into the future.. he is nowhere near the level of Kakashi or Shikumaru.. whats the smartest thing Itachi's done? " - This part is just wrong. Itachi was called a genius even from a young age. He was in the anbu at the age 13, sasuke was a genin by that time. And saying that he's nowhere near Kakashi's level is absurd. Itachi is smarter than Kakashi IMO. Either way, the worst you can say about itachi is that he's close to kakashi's intelligence level, but definitely not what you said there.
" but even Sasuke showed to be a better stragitist than Itachi.. all Itachi planned for was to lure Oro out and die.. not much brain power needed.. just fight Sasuke till he's at his limit, seal Oro and die.. wow how genuis..." - I guess you decided that Itachi's dumb... No, sasuke had a lot of time to prepare for the fight, and under orochimaru's guidance he had a few aces up his sleeve. That's not that impressive, seeing how it's been done throughout the whole anime. We always see people coming up with something new. Heck, even naruto when he beat kakuzu did something suprising. Is he smarter than Itachi as well? And no, Itachi's plan didn't involve orochimaru at first. Itachi was smart enough to infiltrate the most notorious organization in the naruto universe without letting anyone know about his real intentions. He was able to deceive some really smart ninja. Also, Itachi's plan doesn't resume to just him vs sasuke (w/ orochimaru). He knew that his brother would kill him, but he also knew that Madara would approach him. He knew that Naruto would be the one trying to stop him and he anticipated what will be one of the greatest fights in the naruto universe, Naruto vs Sasuke. He gave naruto a gift, which is yet to be revealed and knew that sasuke would decide to attack Konoha. All this among other little things that I failed to mention. Please tell me if you consider this dumb, or if you think Kakashi did more planning than that. Shikaramu would be able to pull something like that off. I guess Shikaku as well. And also Madara. Other than that, no one else.
I'm not going to copy the whole next paragraph to save space, but you're assuming now that Kinkaku killed the second hokage, the tsunade says that they left him on the verge of death. So you're disregarding a fact from the manga now. If the manga says that they were eaten by the fox, I guess they were. If it says that they left tobirama on the verge of death, that's what they did. The thing you can cling on is that everything is just a legend and legend tend to be wrong. So they might have killed tobirama then, without people actually knowing it. But the opposite is true as well: the legend might set the standard too high for them and they could have the reputation, without doing the crimes. Happens sometimes. I'm not saying that is what happened, I'm just saying that is what my reply would be to your assumption that they killed tobirama.
"Kakashi uppercut him from underground, Naruto Rasengan him a couple of times" - that was itachi at about 20% of his chakra, which isn't really that much. It was itachi at his fullest I guess you know that.
"the Kin Gin uses 4 of the 5 Ultimate Treasures that the SO6P himself used.." - first of all it saying in the manga that they are 4 of the 5 treasures that hidden cloud HAS, which means hidden cloud has 5 treasures, they have 4 of them. There might be a lot more! And also it doesn't say that SO6P used them, it says that he left them behind. He might have created those for his sons, because I doubt he needed a banana fan to create elements, since he could use all of them... Also, with regards to Itachi... Kakashi copied 1000 techniques with his sharingan. Don't assume that Itachi is limited to 3 MS abilities. Itachi was in the presence of the greatest ninja alive. He most likely picked things up along the way. It's what the sharingan does.
If Itachi knew or didn't knew about the ultimate treasures that's debatable. Why? Simple. Because the SO6P (as I said before) probably left more than 5 treasures behind and most likely a strong clan like uchiha would know about some of them, if not all. Either way, you can not say that you are 100% that Itachi doesn't know about the weapons, in the same way that I cannot say that the brothers don't know about MS and his powers. And also Itachi isn't that talkative if you remember so he won't really use the word he uses most, which I guess is either "hatred" or "sasuke". And I will disregard why Samui was trapped because no one knows the exact reason why, so there's no point in bringing that up yet.
"this is for the "we dont know Itachis max power" excuse that Itachi fanboys love to say over and over.. " - I guess I fit in that category because we actually don't Itachi's full power. You can easily say that the brothers can be smarter and faster even if you didn't actually seem them be that impressive, but you think that Itachi at full power isn't that much of a difference. I think you heard that so much that you decided to completely disregard it, even if it's true. It is true though, we don't know Itachi's full power. No matter what you say, that remains a fact and you cannot imply that he wasn't really that strong in the same sense that I cannot imply that he was very strong. So this is a thing we can both forget about. All we DO know is that we don't know how strong Itachi might be at full power. Let's accept this now.
In the end, you cannot say that KinGin win or Itachi wins for sure, because everyone makes mistakes and everyone has weaknesses. But at the moment, I lean towards Itachi winning, however, if the manga reveals that the bros are stronger than I give them credit, then I would easily change my mind. My life isn't better if Itachi wins all the fights he is in, so I don't really care that much. I am subjective in the sense that I would want Itachi to win if he were to fight the brothers, but I am objective when I am arguing who is stronger. Where there is proof, I gave it, where there isn't I've written why we cannot know for sure. I think this thread is over-done and we can come to an agreement that we cannot know 100% who wins (at least not yet) and that if you think the brothers win, then good for you, if I think Itachi wins, hurray for me. Either way I don't measure my worth as a human being by how many battles Itachi wins so I guess I will stop debating on this subject for now.
. But they didn't then, however, Itachi fought the likes of shisui, deidara, kakashi and so on and didn't have ANY problems winning.
