[VS] Killer Bee vs EMS Sasuke

[Apêx1]

Hey you know what? A needle stab has force concentrated into a tiny point so it has a better chance piercing through susanoo compared to TBB because TBB spreads out its energy in a 3D sphere whereas the needle concentrates energy into a single point.

Is this directed towards me?

 

[Icelerate]

Is this directed towards me?

No it is directed towards this guy. (

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)

I hope you win this debate since I'd rather see Sasuke beating Bee but I'll have to read it from page 5 which will take a long time.

 

[KidGamer65]

I'd agree if it wasn't shown as a parallel with TBB against Obito. It has the same speed as TBB and thus the only difference in their forward momentum's intensity is the mass,

Yes, it had the same speed, but as you said, mass is the main difference.

Which is unlikely to be vastly significant given the constituent chakra's of the two aren't differing, and if anything, Sasuke' Susano chakra is more potent than Naruto's Kyuubi chakra as stated by the Kyuubi himself in early part 2. So mass is the only deciding factor here, and it won't be big enough to plow through something that is attacking its core imo. Enton being aimed at the core will make deflection only possible by reversing its forward momentum completely, which is unlikely.

1. Its a vastly significant difference. Bijuu Dama is one the most dense forms of chakra in the manga, much more dense than a Susanoo arrow. Density and Mass are directly proportional. As one increases the other increases. The more density the more mass, thus the more momentum. Bijuu Dama's density>>>>>Susanoo arrow, thus its mass>>>Susanoo arrow, thus its momentum>>Susanoo arrow.

2. What does chakra potency have to do with mass?

No. He was impulsively smacking his tentacles around due to the pain, him aiming the place he would smack his tentacles isn't the equivalent of him being capable of using his hand to cut off one of his tentacles.

Then he shouldn't have been able to aim for Karin at all, but as you said, he did. He consciously aimed for her, thus he had some kind of control over his motor functions despite the pain. No reason he can't cut off his tentacle.

Oh, my bad. And no he didn't, the Juubi laser cut off his Tentacle, but the tentacle wasn't what was warped, but rather his horn was [

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].

The Juubi laser isn't a cutting technique, so there's no way it'd cut off only one of B's tentacles, especially since that was shown to be a clean cut, if you look at the edges of the tentacle. That horn has always been like that ever since Ay cut it off donkey years ago, so it has nothing to do with what happened in this chapter.

No, it was only the Juubi's size because the Juubi's TBB also exploded [

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]. Hachibi's TBB was far smaller, and thus served as a much smaller role in that explosion. V3 also survived Kirin, which is a mountain buster as well. Surviving is all he needs to do, he doesn't need to tank, though he can in fact tank that small scaled TBB Hachibi launched.

The Juubi's Bijuu Dama is much larger than that. Had it exploded, we would have seen

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, not that. Not to mention that Bijuu Dama was roughly the same size as

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, which caused

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explosion. Its still a Mountain vaporizer, and it'll still wreck Sasuke's Susanoo.

V3 didn't survive Kirin, it got obliterated by Kirin, which is a Large Hill/Small Mountain buster which only carried enough energy to obliterate the Mountain, but leave a lot of rubble behind. Bijuu Dama vaporizes Large Mountains leaving no rubble behind. Bijuu Dama is tiers above Kirin. Tiers. The Bijuu Dama Hachibi used on the Juubi wrecks his Susanoo.

Don't see anything explaining why the Enton arrow's forward momentum is reversed when the size is the only difference between it and the TBB. Thus, if the Enton arrow was an equivalent size, it would carry an equal forward momentum. Moreover, since the Enton arrow is a piercing attack, it won't need to create an equilibrium with the TBB's energy output, as it's hitting a much smaller unit per area, thus should logically pierce through it given its added penetrative properties from its constituent Ketai Henka. Similar to PS shockwave, it could logically pierce a flash TBB, but had you spread its effect to a size matching the flash Biju Dama thus decreased its energy output per unit area, it would likely do nothing.

Size, density, mass and thus momentum are all things that show why the arrow isn't doing anything to a Bijuu Dama. The fact arrows from a stronger guy only managed to stalemate Gudo Dama means that arrows from a weaker guy aren't going to hinder Bijuu Dama at all.

Strict used the same argument. Combined with the fact Bijuu Dama's Momentum>Enton Arrow's momentum, and the fact that there is nothing that implies its strong enough to pierce a Bijuu Dama, (And even then if it pierces it, the Dama still goes flying or it still explodes thus killing Sasuke regardless) at least nothing that I've seen tells me that this isn't happening.

@bold/underlined: Based on what? It being a penetrative attack isn't enough to make a case.

He should perceive it given the fact summoning Hachibi has been noted to take a lot of strength/chakra [

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]. He predicts a build up in chakra and fires off Amateratsu continuously like he did against Kabuto. Knowing of Bee's ability to use tentacles as a means of switching bodies, he can simply fire Amateratsu's at Bee's mouth/tentacles/limbs/body which should disable him from using TBB in the improbable case he switches with a tail. Not to mention even if Bee comes out of the tentacle somehow alive, he is highly vulnerable to an Enton arrow if he goes into BM or remains in base, since it will incinerate the Hachibi from inside out and force him to repeat the cycle of "scream in agony since I can't fire off TBB like zis."

Summoning taking up a lot of strength doesn't translate to there being some extremely large build up that he'd notice. So B enters Bijuu Mode, Sasuke responds with Amaterasu and B cuts off his tentacle. Whether or not there is flame on it is irrelevant since it doesn't burn hot or fast enough to incinerate the tentacle and B along with it before he enters Bijuu Mode. Why would that prevent him from using Bijuu Dama when he leaves the clone behind? When he leaves the clone behind he reverts to Base Mode.

I've replied to Enton Arrow dozens of times now. If B is in his tentacle and Sasuke fires an arrow, he bursts out of the tentacle in Bijuu Mode once again and one of the two things happens:

1. The arrow hits his lower body, he takes it and blows Sasuke up. Then he reverts to base and calls it a day.

2. He fires the Dama, hits the arrow, breaks right through it, kills Sasuke, and calls it a day.

Only because that was the visible flame doesn't imply that that it is the flame which occurs after contact. Similar to when it burned Zetsu, it was a small size but expanded when it made contact with an entity. Same applies here, it's the size of Hachbi initially, but once it makes contact, it can reach sizes as large as half the Juubi

Uh, no, it doesn't reach sizes equal to half the Juubi's.

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The flame is about the same size as the head of the Juubi, just a bit larger, and Hachibi was near that size as well. Cut that flame in half and you get something a little bit larger than half of the size of the Hachibi.

Which is vastly larger than the Hachibi. More so, it was the size length and width wise, which means it's far larger than the Hachibi with or without Futon amplification. Not to mention, Sasuke can exert a greater amount of chakra to continuously spawn Amateratsu.

It was a bit larger than the size of a Bijuu after Fuuton amplification. Without it'd be half that size, as you said. Continuously spawning Amaterasu isn't going to help since Hachibi can just cut a tentacle and he's free from it.

Fair enough. Just wanted to point that out for any Minato fanboys reading.

Lol.

 

[Transcendence]

Dios mio, this debate has gone on forever!

I would step in, but reading through 9 pages? I'm going back to my Biology spreadsheet...

 

[Dannie]

Bee is overrated as hell. Bee could only beat a pre MS Sasuke.

 

[Transcendence]

Bee is overrated as hell. Bee could only beat a pre MS Sasuke.

No, Bee beats Prime MS Sasuke as well. Too much DC for Sasuke's Susano'o during MS, and MS Sasuke doesn't have the benefit of no drawbacks from MS techniques like EMS Sasuke does.

 

[KidGamer65]

Bee is overrated as hell. Bee could only beat a pre MS Sasuke.

B is overrated yet you think any Sasuke that has MS defeats him? Not sure if serious.

 

[TRE MERCER]

B is overrated yet you think any Sasuke that has MS defeats him? Not sure if serious.

He's actually right. The Be tailed blocked Amaterasu arguement is poor seeing as you couldn't see the full length of his tail before hand so who's to say it' wasn't right there already? Not to mention his face was still caught.

 

[RustledJimmies]

Fck, now I lost myself in all those pages ._.

 

[KidGamer65]

He's actually right. The Be tailed blocked Amaterasu arguement is poor seeing as you couldn't see the full length of his tail before hand so who's to say it' wasn't right there already? Not to mention his face was still caught.

That isn't even an argument that I'm using, but not. MS Sasuke gets obliterated by Killer B. Its not even a contest until he gets Complete Susanoo. W/o Complete Susanoo, Bijuu Mode isn't needed to end his life.

B w/ Full Hachibi restricted>MS Sasuke w/Complete Susanoo and up restricted.

 

[Dannie]

No, Bee beats Prime MS Sasuke as well. Too much DC for Sasuke's Susano'o during MS, and MS Sasuke doesn't have the benefit of no drawbacks from MS techniques like EMS Sasuke does.

B is overrated yet you think any Sasuke that has MS defeats him? Not sure if serious.

When did I say that MS could beat Bee?

I was making a comparison between MS Sasuke and EMS war arc Sasuke.

 

[Apêx1]

Yes, it had the same speed, but as you said, mass is the main difference.




1. Its a vastly significant difference. Bijuu Dama is one the most dense forms of chakra in the manga, much more dense than a Susanoo arrow. Density and Mass are directly proportional. As one increases the other increases. The more density the more mass, thus the more momentum. Bijuu Dama's density>>>>>Susanoo arrow, thus its mass>>>Susanoo arrow, thus its momentum>>Susanoo arrow.

2. What does chakra potency have to do with mass?

Yes, it is. That's what I said, in more detail. Doesn't change the fact that both are moving at an equivalent speed, and nothing implies that TBB is immune to something that can pierce into, simply because it is dense. Take a basketball for example throw it at an extremely small knife, maybe even a needle which are aimed at the core of the basketball. The basketball has an equivalent speed (200 km/h) in comparison to the knife/needle and weighs a lot more, thus has a greater forward momentum. (I know it'a a somewhat flawed analogy, but fact remains sharp materials cannot pierce dense objects due to the lack of penetrative properties they posses in our world, still get my point though). However, if they are aimed at each other's cores, the only way to deflect the other is by pushing it backward and reversing its forward momentum. Not hitting it to the side which would be an easy task, but moving it backward without being affected by its penetrative capabilities. I'd say it is highly unlikely that the TBB is so dense that the Enton arrow cannot pass through, since that's the only thing stopping it from doing so. Not the TBB's forward momentum, but the TBB's density itself.

Then he shouldn't have been able to aim for Karin at all, but as you said, he did. He consciously aimed for her, thus he had some kind of control over his motor functions despite the pain. No reason he can't cut off his tentacle.

He gained a control over his impulsive actions, not his ability to calmly do what he pleases. You also seem to forget the fact that the Hachbi's tails were never in his arm's reach to begin with while under the influence of Amateratsu, thus would have had no way of slicing it himself [

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]. He couldn't then, nothing implies he can do it now when Sasuke can also choose to aim at his arms/hands during the rapid spawning of Amateratsu.

The Juubi laser isn't a cutting technique, so there's no way it'd cut off only one of B's tentacles, especially since that was shown to be a clean cut, if you look at the edges of the tentacle. That horn has always been like that ever since Ay cut it off donkey years ago, so it has nothing to do with what happened in this chapter.

My bad, it wasn't the Juubi laser that cut it off, but it could have. It's a laser with immense pressure, similar to that of a water jet. So in essence, it's not a cutting technique, but in another context, it has the ability to cut off something like the Hachbi's tails with ease. Put your hand out when a train is coming and you have no hand anymore, put your hand out in front of a high pressure water stream and you have no hand anymore. Same concept applies here, it just showcases the Kyuubi's durability to high pressure attacks and the Hachibi's low resistance to them.

And that's not what I am trying to say, I know his horn got sliced by Ay. What I am saying is that Kakashi Kamui'd the entire Hachbi. It is visible in here [

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] that they look the exact same. Here you can see the Hachbi coming out of the Kamui dimension [

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], even though it takes time for Bee to leave and enter the tentacles [

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], yet was done nigh instantly [

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]. More so, you can notice the difference between a tail and a tentacle when Kakashi is warping. Not to mention that Kakashi apologises for having cut off his leg here [

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], since it was noticeably distant from the rest of his body [

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]. All in all, Kakashi Kamui'd the Hachibi and it's tentacle was left behind, he apologised for it, and then Kamui'd the full Hachibi back atop of the Juubi, even though leaving the tentacle and going back into BM isn't an easy task.

The Juubi's Bijuu Dama is much larger than that. Had it exploded, we would have seen

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, not that. Not to mention that Bijuu Dama was roughly the same size as

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, which caused

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explosion. Its still a Mountain vaporizer, and it'll still wreck Sasuke's Susanoo.

Doesn't matter, it was still part of the explosion since when you look at the very next page, the Juubi no longer has a TBB in its mouth [

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]. Unless you are saying the TBB magically disappeared when Bee attempted his TBB, it was mostly the Juubi's uncompressed TBB. The Juubi's uncompressed TBB would most likely, I agree.

V3 didn't survive Kirin, it got obliterated by Kirin, which is a Large Hill/Small Mountain buster which only carried enough energy to obliterate the Mountain, but leave a lot of rubble behind. Bijuu Dama vaporizes Large Mountains leaving no rubble behind. Bijuu Dama is tiers above Kirin. Tiers. The Bijuu Dama Hachibi used on the Juubi wrecks his Susanoo.

Yes, but they are two completely different types of attacks. That's like saying rasengan>Chidori because it can cause more destruction. Kirin was portrayed as a penetrative attack, hence the fact it pierced right through the entire mountain, rather than vaporised it with its outputted heat due to its electric properties. It's basically the most overall attack. Hot, electricity, massive forward momentum, penetrative, large; yet v3 survived it. Rubble or not, it doesn't matter, as it's energy output is insane, not to mention TBB spreads over a much larger area when compared to Kirin. Most likely, his Susano would get wrecked, unless it's somewhat distant from the epicentre of the explosion.

Size, density, mass and thus momentum are all things that show why the arrow isn't doing anything to a Bijuu Dama. The fact arrows from a stronger guy only managed to stalemate Gudo Dama means that arrows from a weaker guy aren't going to hinder Bijuu Dama at all.

Arrow would have no reason to increase in strength, as the only difference is the constituent chakra which would make it more potent, not faster, stronger or heavier. More so, those arrows had no Enton to them, thus have a lower form of penetrative capability. And no, nothing implies TBB is denser than Gudo Dama. Gudo Dama can cause intense explosions at a smaller scale, but that's also requiring an understanding of the difference in size. Thus, Sasuke's TBB still affects the same unit per area that it would affect the Gudo Dama, which are much smaller than the TBB, which only has mass going for it, that is irrelevant if it isn't dense enough to stop the Enton Arrow. You are factoring in irrelevant things, it's like this right now. If Susano can pierce through a TBB, then it wins, if it doesn't have the penetrative requirements, it doesn't. Momentum is irrelevant, because it isn't trying to cause an equilibrium, it's trying to fragment the TBB's shell to force an explosion, and it certainly should be capable of that given the density of the TBB being able to stop a penetrative attack like Susano arrow has no evidence to back it up.

Strict used the same argument. Combined with the fact Bijuu Dama's Momentum>Enton Arrow's momentum, and the fact that there is nothing that implies its strong enough to pierce a Bijuu Dama, (And even then if it pierces it, the Dama still goes flying or it still explodes thus killing Sasuke regardless) at least nothing that I've seen tells me that this isn't happening.

Haven't seen his arguments yet. Momentum is irrelevant to an extent. If Enton arrow can get through TBB's density, it explodes. And I don't see why not. If Sasuke isn't in the epicentre of the explosion, he survives. Energy deteriorates at an exponential rate the further you get away from it. Sasuke's shown a massive jump on his legged v3, along with the fact that he can stop Kirin with a superior Susano to Itachi implies he can take on a non-epicentre TBB blast.

@bold/underlined: Based on what? It being a penetrative attack isn't enough to make a case.

What? You are taking this out of proportion. What even is TBB's density feat to begin with, before even trying to compare it to the likes of a PS shockwave. PS shockwave slices it in half low diff.

Summoning taking up a lot of strength doesn't translate to there being some extremely large build up that he'd notice. So B enters Bijuu Mode, Sasuke responds with Amaterasu and B cuts off his tentacle. Whether or not there is flame on it is irrelevant since it doesn't burn hot or fast enough to incinerate the tentacle and B along with it before he enters Bijuu Mode. Why would that prevent him from using Bijuu Dama when he leaves the clone behind? When he leaves the clone behind he reverts to Base Mode.

What? Strength is clearly implying chakra. He would need no actual strength to begin with in order to summon something within him, only chakra as does every summon/Chakra expulsion/BM. You are making it seem immediate, he isn't doing any of this, nor will it be successful as I've already shown that it takes time for Bee to leave his tentacle. Bee isn't cutting off his tentacle as long as Sasuke has the ability to continuously spawn Amateratsu and burn Hachibi's arms/hands. Sasuke has seen it before, I don't see why he won't do anything about it now that he knows. It takes time for Hachibi to leave the tentacle, he's highly vulnerable to Enton arrows.

I've replied to Enton Arrow dozens of times now. If B is in his tentacle and Sasuke fires an arrow, he bursts out of the tentacle in Bijuu Mode once again and one of the two things happens:

1. The arrow hits his lower body, he takes it and blows Sasuke up. Then he reverts to base and calls it a day.

2. He fires the Dama, hits the arrow, breaks right through it, kills Sasuke, and calls it a day.

He can't do that though.

1. Then again arrow incinerates its target with Enton, so Bee won't bee able to fight while screaming in pain again [

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], not to mention the Ketai Henka remain while the target is incinerated [

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], so he is suffering internal and external damage from heat and his flesh being penetrated.

2. That's if Hachibi decides not to break Bee out of genjutsu.

Uh, no, it doesn't reach sizes equal to half the Juubi's.

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The flame is about the same size as the head of the Juubi, just a bit larger, and Hachibi was near that size as well. Cut that flame in half and you get something a little bit larger than half of the size of the Hachibi.

Not even close, I already showed the size difference before, half the Juubi head is multiple times the Hachibi.

I don't see what the debate is still going on about though. People really think Amateratsu hasn't improved? Think again;
-Hachibi in front of the first stage Juubi [

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]
-Gamakichi who is as big as a Bijuu in front of final portrayed Juubi size [

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]
-All 3 Summons along with larger sized Juubi clones compared to Juubi [

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]
-Sasuke's Amateratsu compared to Juubi head [

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]

It was a bit larger than the size of a Bijuu after Fuuton amplification. Without it'd be half that size, as you said. Continuously spawning Amaterasu isn't going to help since Hachibi can just cut a tentacle and he's free from it.

Nope. And no, continuously spawning Amateratsu means more damage to Hachibi. Hachibi's body after getting out of a tentacle doesn't heal, so all the damage he takes from Amateratsu is still there after he goes into his second BM. Anyways, this is imply under the assumption that he can cut off the tentacle, when he can't, not to mention it takes time to leave the tentacle [

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]..

 

[TRE MERCER]

That isn't even an argument that I'm using, but not. MS Sasuke gets obliterated by Killer B. Its not even a contest until he gets Complete Susanoo. W/o Complete Susanoo, Bijuu Mode isn't needed to end his life.

B w/ Full Hachibi restricted>MS Sasuke w/Complete Susanoo and up restricted.

Drink Ebola blood @Bold.

 

[ARGUS]

lol ribcage Susano'o tanks tbb. tbb is unfocused explosion not like Tsunades punch.
And Hashirama caught the tbb with a wooden arm. Sasukes Susano'o would catch the tbb as well.

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Bee is overrated as hell. Bee could only beat a pre MS Sasuke.

Lol pre MS sasuke would get pooped on by Bee, just how he did in canon

 

[TRE MERCER]

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Lol pre MS sasuke would get pooped on by Bee, just how he did in canon

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[ARGUS]

[

Spoiler

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Bee canonically countered it by removing his tentacle,
he also nearly killed sasuke by a lariat, and had it not been for karin and jugo, sasuke wouldve died,

 

[TRE MERCER]

Bee canonically countered it by removing his tentacle,
he also nearly killed sasuke by a lariat, and had it not been for karin and jugo, sasuke wouldve died,

Bee didn't remove his tentacle Sasuke did.(

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). Not sure why people think Killer bee saved his own ass that time but he didn't.

 

[ARGUS]

Bee didn't remove his tentacle Sasuke did.(

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). Not sure why people think Killer bee saved his own ass that time but he didn't.

Lol the tentacle that was hit with amatearsu was clearly seperated from the main body of the hachibi, sasuke only managed to cut the tentacle even more

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, he does the exact same thing here to counter amaterasu and then blows sasuke up with TBB

 

[TRE MERCER]

Lol the tentacle that was hit with amatearsu was clearly seperated from the main body of the hachibi, sasuke only managed to cut the tentacle even more

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, he does the exact same thing here to counter amaterasu and then blows sasuke up with TBB

Reverse summonings says HI Amaterasu to the face end him.

 

[ARGUS]

Reverse summonings says HI Amaterasu to the face end him.

Lol how the hell is reverse summoning helping?
Removing tentacle says hi
then Bee uses the ink to block sasukes LoS and proceeds to nuke sasuke off, therefore sasuke dies,