[VS] Kakazu, Kisame, Itachi Vs. 6 Paths of Pain

[ItachiStyle]

It's not about 'having' to act on their own. It's about having the potential to do so. The Pein Rikudō cannot act on their own, period. Itachi's use of Kotoamatsukami freed him from Kabuto's control - he was just fortunate that he did not need to rely on this control in order to operate or act. It's not like Kabuto had to control Itachi's every move in order to make him function (well he did, but only to make him fight against his will). He could've easily released his control and Itachi would've gone frolicking in the flowers without a care in the world.

So long as Nagato pours chakra into the Pein's, they have the same capacity to act on their own that an edo without a personality does. I don't see anyone seriously claiming Koto wouldn't work on an Edo with their personality supressed. The only difference is Nagato can pull the plug on their power supply... which stops them being used against him of course... but also stops him from using them in the fight. Nagato is doing the same thing with his puppets as Edo Tensei as far as we can see... giving them instructions, the same as Kabuto does... the genjutsu creates a new set of instructions that can't be overriden from long distance, which means Nagato's only option is to pull the plug (once he's realised what has happened, which may be too late). It's just inaccurate to claim that Koto "freed Itachi from Edo Tensei", rather it gave him a new set of instructions... it just happened he was very happy to work with those new instructions. If he hadn't liked them (say Koto had told him "kill Naruto") it's not like he could have acted on his own accord. Your analysis is just not supported by what we saw.

The realms have no personalities. They have no voice. They have no thoughts. They can't feel pain. They can't be subjected to mental tortue.

Some of this is unproven (remember, the anime doesn't count). They certainly lack personalities, but that's no different to the edo's who have their personalities taken away, and I don't think anyone would dispute Koto can work on them. I also question that Koto can't affect Nagato, given he experiences everything they experience... I've spent some time explaining why the Jiraiya genjutsu was specially weak to Nagato's pain's, whereas Itachi's would one shot all of them at once, because rather than paralysing the nerves of those who physically hear it, Itachi sends psychic backlash at those who he makes eye contact with... meaning Nagato gets shut down from mind rape, along with all the pains and summons, because he experiences what they do. The claim he doesn't experience Koto is pretty specultative.

Remember, the Edo's don't feel pain either, and can't be tortured, so the difference is pretty moot.

 

[OnPoint]

So long as Nagato pours chakra into the Pein's, they have the same capacity to act on their own that an edo without a personality does. I don't see anyone seriously claiming Koto wouldn't work on an Edo with their personality supressed. The only difference is Nagato can pull the plug on their power supply... which stops them being used against him of course... but also stops him from using them in the fight. Nagato is doing the same thing with his puppets as Edo Tensei as far as we can see... giving them instructions, the same as Kabuto does... the genjutsu creates a new set of instructions that can't be overriden from long distance, which means Nagato's only option is to pull the plug (once he's realised what has happened, which may be too late). It's just inaccurate to claim that Koto "freed Itachi from Edo Tensei", rather it gave him a new set of instructions... it just happened he was very happy to work with those new instructions. If he hadn't liked them (say Koto had told him "kill Naruto") it's not like he could have acted on his own accord. Your analysis is just not supported by what we saw.

The realms never act on their own. Their every movement is controlled by Nagato. Seriously, this concept is pathetically basic. A dead body can't even wipe its ass by itself. It's dead. An Edo summon can think, and it can move. It's not like the Path is dead and is magically brought to life to become a zombie (like the Edo); it's completely dead and being controlled by chakra in the same fashion as the puppet master Sasori controls his puppets. It seems like your suggesting that a dead body, which can't think, talk or move without its controller, can somehow begin to move by itself.

Some of this is unproven (remember, the anime doesn't count). They certainly lack personalities, but that's no different to the edo's who have their personalities taken away, and I don't think anyone would dispute Koto can work on them.

And yet, at no point was Itachi's personality suppressed. His movements controlled, his personality, never. Comparing an Edo, which can act on its own, to a dead body which can't speak for itself, move by itself or think by itself is laughable.

I also question that Koto can't affect Nagato, given he experiences everything they experience... I've spent some time explaining why the Jiraiya genjutsu was specially weak to Nagato's pain's, whereas Itachi's would one shot all of them at once, because rather than paralysing the nerves of those who physically hear it, Itachi sends psychic backlash at those who he makes eye contact with... meaning Nagato gets shut down from mind rape, along with all the pains and summons, because he experiences what they do. The claim he doesn't experience Koto is pretty specultative.

Remember, the Edo's don't feel pain either, and can't be tortured, so the difference is pretty moot.

Nagato doesn't experience anything. Canonically, all he does is see what the paths see by looking through things similar to security cameras [

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]. You use Genjutsu on your opponent by sending your chakra into their brain and manipulating their chakra system. Itachi cannot reach Nagato's brain. Itachi cannot have his chakra jump kilometre-odd distances without some form of chakra receiver, which is what Nagato uses. Otherwise Nagato wouldn't need the rods. Otherwise, Nagato himself would've turned to stone when Gakidō did. It seems as though this is another fact you're overlooking. Nagato wasn't even caught by Gamarinshō; only the two realms which heard the melody were, which is why only their bodies appeared in the cube. Nagato doesn't get caught when his tools are captured; tools which, even when subjected to mental torture, would simply carry on like the lifeless puppets they are. Chakra just doesn't magically 'jump' to the controller or we'd have a pair of stone Rinnegan in this manga. And if the chakra cannot reach the man's brain, he simply cannot be caught in an illusion, simple.

 

[Penguin]

The realms never act on their own. Their every movement is controlled by Nagato. Seriously, this concept is pathetically basic. A dead body can't even wipe its ass by itself. It's dead. An Edo summon can think, and it can move. It's not like the Path is dead and is magically brought to life to become a zombie (like the Edo); it's completely dead and being controlled by chakra in the same fashion as the puppet master Sasori controls his puppets. It seems like your suggesting that a dead body, which can't think, talk or move without its controller, can somehow begin to move by itself.




And yet, at no point was Itachi's personality suppressed. His movements controlled, his personality, never. Comparing an Edo, which can act on its own, to a dead body which can't speak for itself, move by itself or think by itself is laughable.



Nagato doesn't experience anything. Canonically, all he does is see what the paths see by looking through things similar to security cameras [

You must be registered for see links

]. You use Genjutsu on your opponent by sending your chakra into their brain and manipulating their chakra system. Itachi cannot reach Nagato's brain. Itachi cannot have his chakra jump kilometre-odd distances without some form of chakra receiver, which is what Nagato uses. Otherwise Nagato wouldn't need the rods. Otherwise, Nagato himself would've turned to stone when Gakidō did. It seems as though this is another fact you're overlooking. Nagato wasn't even caught by Gamarinshō; only the two realms which heard the melody were, which is why only their bodies appeared in the cube. Nagato doesn't get caught when his tools are captured; tools which, even when subjected to mental torture, would simply carry on like the lifeless puppets they are. Chakra just doesn't magically 'jump' to the controller or we'd have a pair of stone Rinnegan in this manga. And if the chakra cannot reach the man's brain, he simply cannot be caught in an illusion, simple.

DAYUM. + rep. You are good.

 

[ItachiStyle]

Bearing in mind that Koto was removed from this thread, I'll be brief in my response.

You continue to insist that THEY'RE DEAD, THEY HAVE NO PERSONALITIES OR ANYTHING!!!, and you do this like it matters. It really doesn't. It wasn't like the genjutsu just said "you have your personality back Itachi, hurray". The genjutsu gave a new set of instructions, not unlike the instructions Kabuto and Nagato (and Tobi) give to their edo's/paths, what Itachi's personality thought about them was really irrelevant (if he'd been told to kill Naruto by Koto, he'd have done that too). The paths are indeed dead, and so are the edo's. Provided Kabuto doesn't give them personalities, the edo is as robot like as Pein's paths... there's no reason instructions sent to either should be less effective by Koto. Unless you want to argue Koto fails against an Edo minus a personality (which strikes me as silly), I don't think you have an argument. If it helps, use this rather messy and inexact analogy to make it easier for you to conceptualise it. Imagine one of the paths. Now install a radio on it. It is now exactly the same as an edo for all intents and purposes. Sound comes out, but they're both robots, and Koto is just a virus forcing a new set of programming into them both.

I agree it wouldn't work on a robot, but clearly the Pain's are more complex than that (they can use jutsu, and can be entrapped in genjutsu for instance, so they have all the ordinary functions of a body like nerves for Jiraiya to paralyse via the Sage Song, they're just not alive... but neither are the edos).