Kakashi vs Sasuke

[Beans2]

So are you saying you think Sasuke was going to use a different jutsu?

It could've been weaker without starting a storm... Lol you can't disregard manga scans.

Obviously Kishimoto retconned Kirin and changed his mind on the mechanics of the jutsu between early Part 2 and the fight with Itachi. It can't be weaker without starting a storm because without a storm or thunderclouds a lightning bolt can't be made in the first place. Kishimoto makes mistakes sometimes, and if it's obvious that he did then I will disregard that scan.

 

[super yang]

sasuke wins both scenes in base & w/o Kirin

chidori nagashi negates 99% of kakashis relevant arsenal.
sasukes snake mods & superior technical craft will overwhelm the lone remaining threat of a shark bomb

 

[EliteKakashi]

It's not like Kakashi would have the advantage in close range combat, so I don't see how that helps your arguement.

I didn't say either one would have an advantage at close range. I simply said he would keep it close range if the threat of Kirin appeared.

Kakashi also have low chakra like Itachi.. So him running out is a very plausible assumption that could make it easier to use.

His chakra isn't high, but it's not as bad as Itachi's was against Sasuke. Remember, Itachi was on death's door as it was due to his illness.

And depending on scenario here, Kakashi's stamina could be different. If he means War-Arc Kakashi just using 3-tomoe, then stamina isn't even a slight issue.

Stamina can become an issue in scenario 2 given he specifically states it's pre-war arc, although in this case if the fight lasts that long, and Kakashi finds himself running low on chakra, kamui is always an option.

I'll give you credit. I think Kakashi use clones better than anyone in the manga but he's also very limited to how many he can use.

No argument there. He has to be smart with his usage.

Yes Sasuke is on kakashi's level in battle tactics.. Kakashi did come up with the plan to seal Kaguya but he was working with four people while Naruto and Sasuke was working by themselves.. What Kakashi did was noteworthy but definitely doesn't separate him from Sasuke.. Every battle Sasuke has been in he's use some form of battle tatic save his last fight with naruto.

The databook proves nothing especially when there's full intell.

I've laid out my argument as to why Kakashi's tactical intelligence is better, backed up by hype and feats, I dunno what else to really say. If you don't agree then I guess we're just gonna have to agree to disagree, but I do feel the manga backs up my side much better than yours in this regard.

You must be registered for see links

Yes he can.

And I don't remember kakashi's using sution without a sorce of water.. He's not kisame or Tobirama

Kakashi uses suiton without a water source vs Kakuzu. I know there was a statement in part 1 about that being impressive, but in the war-arc there were fodder doing that. Not really an impressive feat anymore.

You must be registered for see images

Chapter 336 if you want to view it.

 

[EliteKakashi]

sasuke wins both scenes in base & w/o Kirin

chidori nagashi negates 99% of kakashis relevant arsenal.
sasukes snake mods & superior technical craft will overwhelm the lone remaining threat of a shark bomb

If Sasuke uses nagashi vs Kakashi it's going to end up getting copied, as well, which ends up eliminating a lot of Sasuke's arsenal too. Double edged sword there. Kakashi has mastery of the raiton element, anything Sasuke uses is getting copied in that regard.

Kakashi's shown great ability with suiton as well, he can defend against Sasuke's katon.

There's numerous ways to deal with the snakes, ala raikiri kunai, raiden, etc.

Sasuke isn't beating Kakashi period in these scenarios. He's certainly not doing it in base.

 

[super yang]

If Sasuke uses nagashi vs Kakashi it's going to end up getting copied, as well, which ends up eliminating a lot of Sasuke's arsenal too. Double edged sword there. Kakashi has mastery of the raiton element, anything Sasuke uses is getting copied in that regard.

Kakashi's shown great ability with suiton as well, he can defend against Sasuke's katon.

There's numerous ways to deal with the snakes, ala raikiri kunai, raiden, etc.

Sasuke isn't beating Kakashi period in these scenarios. He's certainly not doing it in base.

well then sasuke would copy kakashis water techs, so it evens out.

 

[EliteKakashi]

well then sasuke would copy kakashis water techs, so it evens out.

Sasuke's never used a suiton technique, so I'm not sure how that's going to work.

Nor am I sure how it matters. Kakashi's not a katon user, and there's no large water source around so they're not gonna be using any really deadly suiton techniques..for Kakashi it's just defensive purposes.

 

[super yang]

Sasuke's never used a suiton technique, so I'm not sure how that's going to work.

the same way kakashi would copy an un-copyable~seal-less chidori nagashi, that's how.

fanfiction works both ways

 

[EliteKakashi]

the same way kakashi would copy a seal-less chidori nagashi, that's how.

fanfiction works both ways

Except Kakashi has mastered the raiton element and Sasuke has never used a suiton, ever. I mean if you want to give him the ability to use that, I really don't care cause it doesn't make a difference in this battle, but there's no reason to think Sasuke can.

And it's not stated anywhere that I recall that the sharingan has to see hand seals. It can see the flow and the kneading of the chakra, and can copy it based off that.

Or hell, given his mastery of the element I see no reason to believe he can't replicate it just from looking at it even without a sharingan, same way any non-sharingan user in the manga learns techniques from their teachers.

 

[super yang]

And it's not stated anywhere that I recall that the sharingan has to see hand seals. It can see the flow and the kneading of the chakra, and can copy it based off that.

''kneading of chakra'' -IS- breathing & handseals
so you've just destroyed your premise & validated mine so flawlessly.

chidori is the height of rai'ton nature manipulation already.
nagashi is an exercise in personalized chakra control thru directed practice, 4 a specific quality; its not copy-able

]Or hell, given his mastery of the element I see no reason to believe he can't replicate it just from looking at it even without a sharingan, same way any non-sharingan user in the manga learns techniques from their teachers.

U r now displaying the height of contradiction, in-objectivity & bias

smh... and u don't copy a jutsu by watching what it does or how it moves thru the environment either

 

[EliteKakashi]

''kneading of chakra'' -IS- breathing & handseals
so you've just destroyed your premise & validated mine so flawlessly.

You're trying to tell me you need handseals to knead chakra?

You're not being serious, are you? I certainly hope not.

chidori is the height of rai'ton nature manipulation already.
nagashi is an exercise in personalized chakra control thru directed practice, 4 a specific quality; its not copy-able

It's, by definition in the databook, just chidori that is being shot in different directions.

This ninjutsu makes practical use of the "Chidori" by extending its attack range, in order to make use of the Lightning nature's special characteristic of "temporarily making the muscles of the touched person go stiff," and attempt to enfold multiple enemies. By releasing the "Chidori" in every direction, an electrical discharge flows from one's entire body. This allows one to attack everyone within a specific range. Also, when using this attack on a great number of enemies at once, it also effectively doubles as an instant defence.

Kakashi has already shown the ability to use raikiri and make it go in whatever direction he wants, and he can even form shapes with his.

You must be registered for see images

This isn't complicated stuff.

U r now displaying the height of contradiction, in-objectivity & bias

smh...

It has nothing to do with in-objectivity and bias. Saying someone who has mastered an element would be able to replicate other techniques used in that element is not some farfetched idea, especially when that person has already shown everything he needs to know how to replicate it, which is by controlling raikiri.

 

[super yang]

You're trying to tell me you need handseals to knead chakra?

You're not being serious, are you? I certainly hope not.

the sharingan need handseals & breathing - to witness or ''copy''- the kneading of chakra/production of ninjutsu

This isn't complicated stuff.

indeed, it isn't

It has nothing to do with in-objectivity and bias. Saying someone who has mastered an element would be able to replicate other techniques used in that element is not some farfetched idea, especially when that person has already shown everything he needs to know how to replicate it, which is by controlling raikiri.

Now n, U say replicate by merely seeing something.. you've disregarded the fictional, experience & skill accomplishments of the individual characters to suit the purpose of a hypothetical fight that the narrative has no use for.
U say its not a ''farfetched idea'', yet it takes a kkg doujutsu to copy ''replicate'' even an orthodox jutsu.
U simply don't have the right to alter the fiction so starkly
no, my assessment of your pining is spot-on

 

[EliteKakashi]

the sharingan need handseals & breathing - to witness or ''copy''- the kneading of chakra/production of ninjutsu

I'm still waiting on your scan that shows that handseals are required. It's quite clear they copy the chakra flow. Handseals aren't needed for techniques, as we've seen practically all through part 2.

Now n, U say replicate by merely seeing something.. you've disregarded the fictional, experience skill accomplishments of the individual characters to suit the purpose of a hypothetical fight. U say its not a ''farfetched idea'', yet it takes a kkg doujutsu to copy an orthodox jutsu.

no, my assessment of your pining is spot-on

So you're trying to claim you have to have the sharingan to be able to replicate a technique you've seen? And I'm using replicate as the definition of the word..I don't mean it in the sense of how the sharingan replicates.

Going off the FACT that Kakashi has molded his raikiri/shown the ability to form it and make it go in different directions, just as Sasuke has his chidori, there is no logical reason to believe that if he sees Sasuke form it/make it go in different directions that he would be incapable of doing the same thing.

At that point you're just trying to argue just to argue. You try telling me nagashi is some sophisticated technique that Kakashi wouldn't be capable of replicating(with or without sharingan) when Kakashi has already shown the ability to do the exact same thing Sasuke does(and I even provided the scan for it), and on top of that it's not sophisticated at all. It's just pushing the raiton chakra in different directions. We've seen this done with practically every element(forming it, directing it, etc). It's nothing new.

 

[super yang]

I'm still waiting on your scan that shows that handseals are required. It's quite clear they copy the chakra flow. Handseals aren't needed for techniques, as we've seen practically all through part 2.
.

handseals are needed to copy jutsu, yes. U don't get to personally retcon this because its convenient 4 U

u don't copy a jutsu by watching what it does or how it moves thru the environment.

the doujutsu copies the incantation of the ''magic''
it doesn't digitally record & playback the magic casting itself

rasengan, liquification, water mirror, chakra strings, lion fist & lighning armor are not copyable

At that point you're just trying to argue just to argue. You try telling me nagashi is some sophisticated technique that Kakashi wouldn't be capable of replicating(with or without sharingan) when Kakashi has already shown the ability to do the ''exact same thing'' Sasuke does(and I even provided the scan for it), and on top of that it's not sophisticated at all. ''It's just pushing'' the raiton chakra in different directions. We've seen this done with practically every element(forming it, directing it, etc). It's nothing new.

the second paragraph is more of the same, a frenzy of vanity for your bias.

U sound like one of his assistants or smthng...U don't get to make your own amendments to someone elses fiction.
what U say is ''exact same thing'' is said to be a different ninjutsu by the literature & author

get over yourself

 

[BenjerminGaye]

handseals are needed to copy jutsu, yes

u don't copy a jutsu by watching what it does or how it moves thru the environment.

the doujutsu copies the incantation of the ''magic''
irt doesn't digitally record & playback the magic casting itself

rasengan, liquification & lighning armor are not copyable

Nope. 2 tome sasuke copied dancing leaf shadow despite it not having handseals, and in the explanation of how sharingan works handseals was never mentioned as a requirement for copying.

You must be registered for see images

 

[Ghost in the Shell]

...didn't Kakashi copy Minato's rasengan?

 

[BenjerminGaye]

...didn't Kakashi copy Minato's rasengan?

Nope. He learned it the normal way before he even got obito's sharingan

 

[EliteKakashi]

I wouldn't even much bother anymore, guys. I've asked him for a scan numerous times to prove that handseals are needed yet he's still not come up with one. He's just debating in circles with me right now.

He for some reason thinks even though the user can use the technique without handseals, it can't also be copied that way. Which makes no sense, because the only other explanation for using the technique if you're not using handseals is you're controlling the chakra in your body to do so, which the sharingan can copy.

I really don't know what else to say to him.

 

[Ghost in the Shell]

Kakashi and Sasuke in Hebi are pretty close, but the former is overall superior. I don't even see the Curse Mark being too much of a game changer, especially if this is Kakashi with his War-Arc stamina boost.

 

[King Of Pop]

Kakashi is faster, with better reflexes, better CQC, stronger, tougher, smarter, more versatile, Raikiri > Chidori and Raikiri variants > Chidori variants, Suiton + Raiton + Doton > Katon + Raiton. Sasuke can use CS to boost himself but Kakashi still schools him.

i sure as hell know you are not using feats but your nicely crafted fanfiction. in no way shape or form is kakashi is superior categories, maybe to a fanboy. with cs2 sasuke has durability, boosted jutsus preferably chidori which he can make black, boosted speed etc with that kakahsi gets demolished and overpowered in any cqc confrontation, he isnt schooling jack.

Kirin doesn't really work here because Kakashi has full intel of it/it won't take him off guard like Sasuke tried to do with Itachi.

Giving Kakashi full intel in a fight where he's not clearly overmatched will practically always give him the victory.

The list of characters who can even come close in matching him in tactical knowledge is very short, and Sasuke is not on that list.

This panel:

You must be registered for see images

Was never proven to be false in the manga. If Kakashi has knowledge of a technique and how it works, he's going to figure out how to avoid it/defeat it if possible. Again, it's going to require someone who can think on par, if not out think Kakashi(again, if he's not obviously overmatched). Sasuke is not capable of such a feat.

i hate to break it to you but full intel works both ways, sasuke knows all what kakashi is capable off so kakashis intelligence or knowledge is not doing shit here especially when sasuke himself is a brilliant thinker like he has shown, being able to observe his battles and come up with solutions, theres no battle lost as a result of being outfoxed or out thought so kakashi is not going to be the only one doing the thinking and coming up with ways to defeat jutsus. he may be smarter but not to the point were you can come here and claim it would be some sort of factor, not when he is up a fellow capable

You must be registered for see links

.

 

[Itachi of the Uchiha clan]

1.Kakashi
2.Kakashi