[VS] Kakashi vs Muu
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Lord Tywin
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Apex, you're right about Kishi not bothering about shit. It looks stupid as fuck to visually perceive something without light, but there is Kishi for you.
Or that chakra emits some kind of light?
Or that chakra emits some kind of light?
Dunno how Kishi's physics work, but at the end of the day the only thing that matters is that Sharingan ignores light only after the second activation if there's a chakra presence. Byakugan ignores light with or without chakra behind it and can see past an entire mountain so I don't think it has anything to do with chakra emitting some kind of light. Pretty sure that's just how the Sharingan works, if there's chakra present then it'll find it regardless of whatever is in its way.
Lord Tywin
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Bold may be not true. Chakra has shown to have color, and colors are just light. But I rather not sink into Kishi logic too much :lol
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Lord Tywin
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BenjerminGaye
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Her manipulating them with chakra doesn't necessarily mean they contain her chakra.
Lord Tywin
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Lord Tywin
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You're probably right. As you said, Sharingan is ignoring the light reflected by the body, and looks at the chakra inside. So you're right
Before I start, I'll apologize for an error I made in my last post. The translation I thought was Konan's camouflage technique was actually an updated translation on both Konan's and Muu's jutsus- "DBC" is Dustless Bewildering Cover and "PPOGT" is Paper Person of God Technique.
"One controls how light is reflected around their body with chakra inflections."
Of course sharingan is going to see those chakra inflections and therefore very obviously detect the user. On the other hand Muu's technique bends light by manipulating water droplets.
You didn't actually counter anything I said in the first paragraph of my last post. You seem to be confused so I'm going to break this down for you, in chronological order.
-At the beginning of this thread, you posted
-I reply saying that Muu suppressing his chakra isn't the reason why sharingan can't see him in the first place. All you proved was that sharingan would be able to see Karin with her chakras suppressed, something which I never even challenged.
-Now you start acting like the comparison I drew between Muu and Karin was the basis for my entire argument and that because there's a chakra presence that means sharingan can see him, when really that's entirely irrelevant. Somehow by your logic this all translates to the burden of proof being on me when you don't even have a proper argument. I detest it when people scream "burden of proof" as an excuse to get out of having to back up an argument that doesn't have evidence to begin with. You did the same exact thing when you claimed that Kirin would kill the Third Raikage, simply denying all the evidence I put forward and not actually backing up your original statement.
Apex. Literally nothing has changed since we went over this last time. Muu only suppresses his chakra from only sensors, the same way Karin does but that's old news to me. Muu doesn't have visible chakra, so sharingan can't see him. You're debating a topic that you've already conceded on.
-Then we have the fact that X-Rays see bones through human tissue but that doesn't mean they ignore light.
-Then we have the fact that Obito did not see that he was standing on an ocean of chakra infused paper, which honestly should be all that's needed here.
And you're accusing me of grasping at straws :lol. You're reading way too deep into this. Being able to see through things does not equate to ignoring light.
Obito didn't "activate" his sharingan to go into "chakra-viewing mode", and we know for a fact that he didn't since that was his first time awakening sharingan. Yet he could still see chakra that was right in front of him.
Sharingan can passively see chakra. It's only when a sharingan user wants to see past a solid object or through something that they have to "activate" their eyesight in order to see the chakra behind it. In the examples you showed me, the sharingan user was either trying to see the chakra network inside a person or see chakra behind a solid object.
Smh, are you talking about Taiseki? Because this is the first time you've ever brought up Taiseki, in this thread or any other one where we discussed this. Anyway, this is an irrelevant point to make since the two jutsus work in different ways. Taiseki's jutsu works because it bends light using chakra.
"One controls how light is reflected around their body with chakra inflections."
Of course sharingan is going to see those chakra inflections and therefore very obviously detect the user. On the other hand Muu's technique bends light by manipulating water droplets.
Stupid reasoning. I never challenged the notion of sharingan being unable to see Karin with her chakras hidden. The only thing Karin has to do with my argument whatsoever is to show you that Muu hides his chakra in a similar way that she does, so Kabuto's statement holds up. Muu hiding chakra isn't the reason sharingan can't see him when he's invisible, so you dug up an irrelevant quote. The only thing I said in that quote was that Muu hides his chakra like Karin does (not to mention I wasn't even talking about invisibility in terms of whether sharingan would see it or not.)
You didn't actually counter anything I said in the first paragraph of my last post. You seem to be confused so I'm going to break this down for you, in chronological order.
-At the beginning of this thread, you posted
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scan which shows only that Karin suppresses her chakra so it's not prone to sensing. Something I already phucking knew.-I reply saying that Muu suppressing his chakra isn't the reason why sharingan can't see him in the first place. All you proved was that sharingan would be able to see Karin with her chakras suppressed, something which I never even challenged.
-Now you start acting like the comparison I drew between Muu and Karin was the basis for my entire argument and that because there's a chakra presence that means sharingan can see him, when really that's entirely irrelevant. Somehow by your logic this all translates to the burden of proof being on me when you don't even have a proper argument. I detest it when people scream "burden of proof" as an excuse to get out of having to back up an argument that doesn't have evidence to begin with. You did the same exact thing when you claimed that Kirin would kill the Third Raikage, simply denying all the evidence I put forward and not actually backing up your original statement.
Apex. Literally nothing has changed since we went over this last time. Muu only suppresses his chakra from only sensors, the same way Karin does but that's old news to me. Muu doesn't have visible chakra, so sharingan can't see him. You're debating a topic that you've already conceded on.
Bolded: and you really think Kishimoto thought this manga through to the point where he takes into consideration the fact that human eyesight only sees light reflected off objects? I brought up this point in my last post and you ignored it which is making me think you're not even properly reading my posts, because you still questioned if I knew how eyesight works. "Ignoring light" is a tremendously dumb argument for the simple reason that if sharingan actually straight up ignored light it wouldn't be able to see anything at all, because of the way eyesight works. Light enters our eye allowing us to see things. Ignoring light=blind.
-Then we have the fact that X-Rays see bones through human tissue but that doesn't mean they ignore light.
-Then we have the fact that Obito did not see that he was standing on an ocean of chakra infused paper, which honestly should be all that's needed here.
And you're accusing me of grasping at straws :lol. You're reading way too deep into this. Being able to see through things does not equate to ignoring light.
Nope. Kishimoto doesn't always draw the Sharingan when chakra is being viewed, and if Sharingan could perceive Konan's paper past the camouflage, DB wouldn't have stated that it can fool Sharingan in general.
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Obito didn't "activate" his sharingan to go into "chakra-viewing mode", and we know for a fact that he didn't since that was his first time awakening sharingan. Yet he could still see chakra that was right in front of him.
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Sharingan can passively see chakra. It's only when a sharingan user wants to see past a solid object or through something that they have to "activate" their eyesight in order to see the chakra behind it. In the examples you showed me, the sharingan user was either trying to see the chakra network inside a person or see chakra behind a solid object.
-No idea why that matters. This isn't a continuation of our previous arguments.
-Bends light using chakra? WTF? So Mu can now manipulate water droplets via his own will power, or is he using chakra? Smh. Obviously the same shit here, water droplets being used doesn't take chakra out of equation since water droplets are formed with chakra and manipulated with it.
Only thing I read that was even relevant to the actual debate is the bold. Just going to let you know that a burden of proof is an actual thing and a burden of proof is pretty much the focal point of any argument. You're making the claim that Mu is invisible to the Sharingan without any proof to back it up. Why would I need to disprove your unsubstantiated claim? You're supposed to be the one to substantiate it in the first place subsequent to me proving the Sharingan ignores light. But then to prove your argument you make another baseless claim.. Dude this is definitely not how proving a claim works. Please prove the red. I have absolutely no idea how you came to the conclusion that his chakra lacks color/is invisible. His only form of invisibility is his camoflage technique that uses the formation of chakra/water droplets to make him go invisible in the same way the Hiding like a Camoflage technique works. I already told you that light DOES NOT have an effect on the Sharingan's perception and proved it. Yet you keep giving me these baseless claims and passing them on as if you ignored all the canonical evidence I have given.
Now you're going to go ahead and ignore any IRL physics being applied to the manga just because you think it's stupid to do it? Because YOU think? That's cool, but what YOU personally think is absolutely irrelevant so it doesn't help your argument. Sharingan ignores light in order to see chakra, it's not ignoring it for fun. And it's not outright ignoring any light
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. It's pretty obvious that it ONLY ignores light when there's a chakra presence behind it. Look at the top of the cave; there's no light being ignored, he sees it as it is. Yet the bottom clearly shows light being ignored ONLY in order to perceive chakra. This is EXACTLY the SAME shit. He's ignoring the light reflections to see the chakra within Mu BEHIND it.-No idea what the hell this is even supposed to do for your argument. The page
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shows te Sharingan works absolutely nothing like an X-Ray and backs up my argument completely.-Not sure why I need to keep explaining how the Sharingan works to you.
-Uh, it definitely does buddy, unless you can actually make a reasonable refutation, which you can't, because I have shown you that it does EXACTLY that in a multitude of occurrences.
Did I say he ALWAYS does? No, I didn't. I showed that he has. Sharingan does have a passive chakra vision, but that chakra vision is completely different. The Sharingan finds chakra naturally but it does not see it with color/signification like it would in its chakra vision. For example, Sasuke saw the C4 bombs inside of him passively (his Sharingan zoomed in on it) but now that I look at it again he didn't see it as color, but as clay
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. On the other hand, when Sasuke uses chakra vision which is clearly depicted by Kishi as shown with the sound/mark from his eye
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he sees the bombs as color as he himself states
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. This brings me to the conclusion that Obito could ONLY see the chakra in the papers had he used chakra vision to see the color of the papers, since looking at the papers without any signfication would be futile seeing how the paper and even Gaara's sand are both infused with chakra. Without chakra vision he'd see the papers as they are since chakra isn't being seen via color. As you can see here
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, although the Sharingan ignores light, as I have already stated before, it's only for non-chakra related substances. You can clearly see chakra overlapping another chakra, meaning that the Sharingan only ignores light as far as the first chakra substance goes. It won't see past the first chakra substance, so in Konan's case; the first Ocean layer. That rules out seeing many papers as an indicator. Obito would have no way to realise the ocean was paper seeing how there's no natural chakra to see in the first place (like say, Asuma having chakra around his chakra blade being perceivable), hence there'd be no light ignoring vision in the first place. He'd only see a single layer of color had he used chakra vision, and without using chakra vision he'd see the paper as it is naturally with his Sharingan. It's basically like Sasuke seeing Deidara's clay for the first time with his Sharingan and not using chakra vision. He sees it as clay and ONLY clay as I have already shown. He doesn't know it's chakra if he just saw it for the first time lying on the floor with nobody around, he'd only realise that when his enemy is using it as a part of a jutsu. Same applies to Konan's paper.
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