Kakashi hasn't surpassed itachi, but he's around his level (war arc kakashi).

[Takos]

KAKASHI PROBABLY SURPASSED Part 1 itachi but definitely not edo

No one claimed he surpassed Edo. But then again, being an edo shouldn't really count for Itachi's skills.

Here's what I think:
Current Kakashi VS non-edo Itachi --> Kakashi wins
Current Kakashi VS edo Itachi --> Itachi wins
Edo Kakashi VS Edo Itachi ---> APOCALYPSE

 

[BenjerminGaye]

No one claimed he surpassed Edo. But then again, being an edo shouldn't really count for Itachi's skills.

Here's what I think:
Current Kakashi VS non-edo Itachi --> Kakashi wins
Current Kakashi VS edo Itachi --> Itachi wins
Edo Kakashi VS Edo Itachi ---> APOCALYPSE

current kakashi can't beat itachi. Its just not in his blood.

 

[Takos]

current kakashi can't beat itachi. Its just not in his blood.

Current Kakashi has shown much better stamina than Itachi had. This is why even if Kakashi's mastery of MS is lower than Itachi's (which is hard to determine for sure, since they have different MS abilities), he can spam Kamui more than Itachi could any of his MS techniques. Since Kamui can be used both for defence and for offence, I think Kakashi would pull it off more times than not.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

Current Kakashi has shown much better stamina than Itachi had. This is why even if Kakashi's mastery of MS is lower than Itachi's (which is hard to determine for sure, since they have different MS abilities), he can spam Kamui more than Itachi could any of his MS techniques. Since Kamui can be used both for defence and for offence, I think Kakashi would pull it off more times than not.

If ms is restricted kakashi can win but Ms is the reason itachi is so op
Amaterasu and tsukyomi are one-shot techs
Yata blocks everything
Toska seals everything
9/10 kakashi looses to this.
But without it Kakashi's MS moveset is:

Chidori
Demonic Illusion: Hell Viewing Technique
Earth Release: Double Suicide Decapitation Technique
Earth Release: Earth-Style Wall
Earth Release: Hiding Like a Mole Technique
Eight Gates
Evil Sealing Method
Genjutsu: Sharingan
Lightning Beast Running Technique
Lightning Cutter
Lightning Release Shadow Clone
Lightning Transmission (Manga only)
Multiple Shadow Clone Technique
One Thousand Years of Death
Rasengan
Shadow Clone Technique
Silent Killing
Summoning Technique (Ninken)
Summoning: Earth Release: Tracking Fang Technique
Water Clone Technique
Water Release: Great Waterfall Technique
Water Release: Water Dragon Bullet Technique
Water Release: Water Encampment Wall
Water Release: Water Shark Bullet Technique

While itachi' is:

Clone Great Explosion
Crow Clone Technique
Demonic Illusion: Mirror Heaven and Earth Change
Demonic Illusion: Shackling Stakes Technique
Dusk Crow Genjutsu
Ephemeral
Fire Release: Great Fireball Technique
Fire Release: Phoenix Sage Fire Technique
Fire Release: Phoenix Sage Flower Nail Crimson
Genjutsu: Sharingan
Izanami (Manga only)
Shadow Clone Technique
Summoning Technique (Crows)
Water Release: Water Fang Bullet

 

[Takos]

If ms is restricted kakashi can win but Ms is the reason itachi is so op
Amaterasu and tsukyomi are one-shot techs
Yata blocks everything
Toska seals everything
9/10 kakashi looses to this.
But without it Kakashi's MS moveset is:

Chidori
Demonic Illusion: Hell Viewing Technique
Earth Release: Double Suicide Decapitation Technique
Earth Release: Earth-Style Wall
Earth Release: Hiding Like a Mole Technique
Eight Gates
Evil Sealing Method
Genjutsu: Sharingan
Lightning Beast Running Technique
Lightning Cutter
Lightning Release Shadow Clone
Lightning Transmission (Manga only)
Multiple Shadow Clone Technique
One Thousand Years of Death
Rasengan
Shadow Clone Technique
Silent Killing
Summoning Technique (Ninken)
Summoning: Earth Release: Tracking Fang Technique
Water Clone Technique
Water Release: Great Waterfall Technique
Water Release: Water Dragon Bullet Technique
Water Release: Water Encampment Wall
Water Release: Water Shark Bullet Technique

While itachi' is:

Clone Great Explosion
Crow Clone Technique
Demonic Illusion: Mirror Heaven and Earth Change
Demonic Illusion: Shackling Stakes Technique
Dusk Crow Genjutsu
Ephemeral
Fire Release: Great Fireball Technique
Fire Release: Phoenix Sage Fire Technique
Fire Release: Phoenix Sage Flower Nail Crimson
Genjutsu: Sharingan
Izanami (Manga only)
Shadow Clone Technique
Summoning Technique (Crows)
Water Release: Water Fang Bullet

I don't think that number of techniques would be the only factor determining Kakashi's superiority if MS was restricted.

It's true that Tsukyomi, Amaterasu and Totsuka are one-shot-KO techniques, but so is Kamui.
In fact, Kakashi can one-hit-KO Itachi just as fast as Itachi could one-hit-KO Kakashi.

However, due to my opinion that base Kakashi is stronger than base Itachi and the fact that Kakashi possesses much larger stamina than Itachi, I would say Kakashi's chances of avoiding that one-hit-KO are much greater than Itachi's.

With larger chakra and jutsu arsenal Kakashi can use more bunshin feints (which were stated and shown to be his speciality), which greatly reduce the chances of falling to Tsukyomi, Amaterasu or Totsuka. Itachi, while skilled and capable of using bunshins, has not shown such proficiency as Kakashi with handling them. In fact, Kakashi has already been able to trick Itachi with a bunshin twice (once in Part I and once in the beginning of Part II, and he has greatly improved since that time). Itachi was able to trick Kakashi with a bunshin only once (in Part I) and part I Kakashi was still capable of seeing through it fast enough to save Kurenai. Add to this the fact that Kakashi already has intel on Tsukyomi and supposedly "doesn't fall for the same trick twice" and all in all I'm pretty sure Kakashi would win more times than not.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

I don't think that number of techniques would be the only factor determining Kakashi's superiority if MS was restricted.

It's true that Tsukyomi, Amaterasu and Totsuka are one-shot-KO techniques, but so is Kamui.
In fact, Kakashi can one-hit-KO Itachi just as fast as Itachi could one-hit-KO Kakashi.

However, due to my opinion that base Kakashi is stronger than base Itachi and the fact that Kakashi possesses much larger stamina than Itachi, I would say Kakashi's chances of avoiding that one-hit-KO are much greater than Itachi's.

With larger chakra and jutsu arsenal Kakashi can use more bunshin feints (which were stated and shown to be his speciality), which greatly reduce the chances of falling to Tsukyomi, Amaterasu or Totsuka. Itachi, while skilled and capable of using bunshins, has not shown such proficiency as Kakashi with handling them. In fact, Kakashi has already been able to trick Itachi with a bunshin twice (once in Part I and once in the beginning of Part II, and he has greatly improved since that time). Itachi was able to trick Kakashi with a bunshin only once (in Part I) and part I Kakashi was still capable of seeing through it fast enough to save Kurenai. Add to this the fact that Kakashi already has intel on Tsukyomi and supposedly "doesn't fall for the same trick twice" and all in all I'm pretty sure Kakashi would win more times than not.

The only reason i listed the techniques is because kakashi has multiple options and counters to everything in itachi has(excluding ms) without even having to resort to his raiton techs. His clone games are the best in the series having tricked roughly half of the akatsuki's top brass (pain, itachi, deidara, hidan,kisame) and he could outlast last itachi.

But once itachi camps in his susanno kakashi has no response other than kamui to block attacks like yaska matanagma, on top of that he still would have to contend with yata and toska while dodging ama.

 

[Slug Princess Tsunade]

Kamui > Itachi. I don't see how he can counter it.
The only way for him to defeat Kakashi is the Amaterasu. It's faster then the Kamui.

 

[Takos]

The only reason i listed the techniques is because kakashi has multiple options and counters to everything in itachi has(excluding ms) without even having to resort to his raiton techs. His clone games are the best in the series having tricked roughly half of the akatsuki's top brass (pain, itachi, deidara, hidan,kisame) and he could outlast last itachi.

But once itachi camps in his susanno kakashi has no response other than kamui to block attacks like yaska matanagma, on top of that he still would have to contend with yata and toska while dodging ama.

I'm glad we agree on Kakashi's proficiency with bunshin feints and bunshins in general. It's true Kakashi would be put in a difficult spot if he had to deal with yata and totsuka while dodging ama. Kamui would surely be useful and using Susanoo drains Itachi's stamina even more than regular MS techniques, because it drains chakra continuously. Kakashi's feints would still be handy and might (or might not) allow him to survive. That's why I think Kakashi wouldn't be left totally helpless in this situation, but I agree that if it came to this Kakashi would likely be killed.

However, this situation is hypothetical and if Kakashi fought Itachi with intent to kill, he surely wouldn't just stay on the defensive. As I said, both Kakashi and Itachi have one-hit-KO techniques, so if we were to judge the outcome only based on MS, then it would be 50% chances for each.
However, when we consider Kakashi's skill with bunshins and greater stamina, I think he has the edge.

Kamui > Itachi. I don't see how he can counter it.
The only way for him to defeat Kakashi is the Amaterasu. It's faster then the Kamui.

Both Kamui and Amaterasu are one-shot-KO, but Amaterasu is not faster. If anything, it is slower, since it was shown to travel and was avoided by A (with body flicker, but still).

But for the sake of the argument, I'm willing to even assume both Amaterasu and Kamui are instant, even though Ama is arguable.

Amaterasu is definitely not, however, faster than Kamui, which was so fast that a skilled Sharingan user in front of the kamuied object didn't even notice it (even though he clearly stated he would keep an eye on Kakashi using Kamui).

 

[BenjerminGaye]

I'm glad we agree on Kakashi's proficiency with bunshin feints and bunshins in general. It's true Kakashi would be put in a difficult spot if he had to deal with yata and totsuka while dodging ama. Kamui would surely be useful and using Susanoo drains Itachi's stamina even more than regular MS techniques, because it drains chakra continuously. Kakashi's feints would still be handy and might (or might not) allow him to survive. That's why I think Kakashi wouldn't be left totally helpless in this situation, but I agree that if it came to this Kakashi would likely be killed.

However, this situation is hypothetical and if Kakashi fought Itachi with intent to kill, he surely wouldn't just stay on the defensive. As I said, both Kakashi and Itachi have one-hit-KO techniques, so if we were to judge the outcome only based on MS, then it would be 50% chances for each.
However, when we consider Kakashi's skill with bunshins and greater stamina, I think he has the edge.



Both Kamui and Amaterasu are one-shot-KO, but Amaterasu is not faster. If anything, it is slower, since it was shown to travel and was avoided by A (with body flicker, but still).

But for the sake of the argument, I'm willing to even assume both Amaterasu and Kamui are instant, even though Ama is arguable.

Amaterasu is definitely not, however, faster than Kamui, which was so fast that a skilled Sharingan user in front of the kamuied object didn't even notice it (even though he clearly stated he would keep an eye on Kakashi using Kamui).

its not that kakashi doesn't have 1shot techs its that itachi has multiple 1shot techs and as such has much less to worry about than kakashi.

 

[Takos]

its not that kakashi doesn't have 1shot techs its that itachi has multiple 1shot techs and as such has much less to worry about than kakashi.

But having more than one 1-hit-KO technique doesn't really matter:
1) Both Amaterasu and Tsukyomi require eyes to use, and using Tsukyomi additionally requires eye contact (something that neither Amaterasu nor Kamui require)
2) Totsuka requires Susanoo, which continuously drains Itachi's chakra. Itachi has also not used it right away after freeing himself from Edo Tensei, which suggests it isn't a use-whenever-and-wherever-you-want technique.

Having multiple one-hit-KO techniques won't do any good:
-Using Tsukoymi and Amaterasu at the same time is useless, because if Tsukyomi manages to land a hit, it means so would Amaterasu, meaning Tsukyomi was pointless in this scenario
-Usin Totsuka and any of the above would on the other hand result in even faster chakra drainage for Itachi, who cannot afford to spam MS techniques as much as Kakashi can

 

[Slug Princess Tsunade]

But having more than one 1-hit-KO technique doesn't really matter:
1) Both Amaterasu and Tsukyomi require eyes to use, and using Tsukyomi additionally requires eye contact (something that neither Amaterasu nor Kamui require)
2) Totsuka requires Susanoo, which continuously drains Itachi's chakra. Itachi has also not used it right away after freeing himself from Edo Tensei, which suggests it isn't a use-whenever-and-wherever-you-want technique.

Having multiple one-hit-KO techniques won't do any good:
-Using Tsukoymi and Amaterasu at the same time is useless, because if Tsukyomi manages to land a hit, it means so would Amaterasu, meaning Tsukyomi was pointless in this scenario
-Usin Totsuka and any of the above would on the other hand result in even faster chakra drainage for Itachi, who cannot afford to spam MS techniques as much as Kakashi can

I disagree with this. The Totsuka sword is a spiritual weapon, so it can change it's appearance/ size/ form. Orochimaru wanted to find it, but he has no Susanoo.
And the same can be said about the Yata Mirror. He can use them without the Susanoo, but it's more practical to use them with it.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

But having more than one 1-hit-KO technique doesn't really matter:
1) Both Amaterasu and Tsukyomi require eyes to use, and using Tsukyomi additionally requires eye contact (something that neither Amaterasu nor Kamui require)
2) Totsuka requires Susanoo, which continuously drains Itachi's chakra. Itachi has also not used it right away after freeing himself from Edo Tensei, which suggests it isn't a use-whenever-and-wherever-you-want technique.

Having multiple one-hit-KO techniques won't do any good:
-Using Tsukoymi and Amaterasu at the same time is useless, because if Tsukyomi manages to land a hit, it means so would Amaterasu, meaning Tsukyomi was pointless in this scenario
-Usin Totsuka and any of the above would on the other hand result in even faster chakra drainage for Itachi, who cannot afford to spam MS techniques as much as Kakashi can

Logically speaking kakashi should solo since he has the fastest 1 shot attack in nv, but in this scenario if he makes eye contact he gets tsukuyomi'd if he doesn't make eye contact he gets amatersu'd . He can't get past susanno and if he gets hit by yaska matanagma i don't see him living. Same goes if he gets hit by toska. He doesn't have the speed to dodge ama and he might not have the speed to dodge yaska since he couldn't dodge susanno arrows.

 

[Takos]

Logically speaking kakashi should solo since he has the fastest 1 shot attack in nv, but in this scenario if he makes eye contact he gets tsukuyomi'd if he doesn't make eye contact he gets amatersu'd . He can't get past susanno and if he gets hit by yaska matanagma i don't see him living. Same goes if he gets hit by toska. He doesn't have the speed to dodge ama and he might not have the speed to dodge yaska since he couldn't dodge susanno arrows.

He might not be able to dodge magatama but he might be able to Kamui it. The great advantage of Kamui over Amaterasu or Tsukyomi is that it can be used for defence as well.

Your point about Kakashi getting Amaterasu'd if he avoids looking into Itachi's eyes is valid, but we arrive at the start of this discussion - we discuss how well Kakashi can do DEFENDING against Itachi but not otherwise.

If Itachi doesn't make a bunshin (which is a general strategy that Kakashi uses even better and can utilize to avoid Itachi's MS techniques), then he has no way of avoiding Kamui:
-It is instant
-It doesn't travel, so staying inside Susanoo won't help; the warping would simply take place inside of Susanoo
-For the above reason, Yata mirror won't protect Itachi from it
-Amaterasu and Tsukyomi are 100% offensive and won't provide any help
-Finally, neither will any other jutsu in Itachi's arsenal

Hence, Itachi's chances of avoiding Kakashi's MS are lower than Kakashi's chances of avoiding Itachi's MS. =D

 

[BenjerminGaye]

He might not be able to dodge magatama but he might be able to Kamui it. The great advantage of Kamui over Amaterasu or Tsukyomi is that it can be used for defence as well.

Your point about Kakashi getting Amaterasu'd if he avoids looking into Itachi's eyes is valid, but we arrive at the start of this discussion - we discuss how well Kakashi can do DEFENDING against Itachi but not otherwise.

If Itachi doesn't make a bunshin (which is a general strategy that Kakashi uses even better and can utilize to avoid Itachi's MS techniques), then he has no way of avoiding Kamui:
-It is instant
-It doesn't travel, so staying inside Susanoo won't help; the warping would simply take place inside of Susanoo
-For the above reason, Yata mirror won't protect Itachi from it
-Amaterasu and Tsukyomi are 100% offensive and won't provide any help
-Finally, neither will any other jutsu in Itachi's arsenal

Hence, Itachi's chances of avoiding Kakashi's MS are lower than Kakashi's chances of avoiding Itachi's MS. =D

Someone didn't read the first sentence.... anyways kamui is not an attack or a defense but just a means of transport. Only when used incorrectly does it technically do any form of damage.Ex deadara's arm, hachibi's tail.

 

[Takos]

Someone didn't read the first sentence.... anyways kamui is not an attack or a defense but just a means of transport. Only when used incorrectly does it technically do any form of damage.Ex deadara's arm, hachibi's tail.

So what? If Itachi gets warped to the other dimension, he will die of starvation, eventually. He has no way of coming back on his own. How is that not a KO?

 

[pateuvasiliu]

Kamui > Itachi. I don't see how he can counter it.
The only way for him to defeat Kakashi is the Amaterasu. It's faster then the Kamui.

Is it, really?

Kamui was able to warp BM Naruto's rasengan without Obito realising it.

Kamui was never dodged once Kakashi mastered it.

Amaterasu? It can be dodged.

Not to mention Kamui can extinguish Amaterasu as shown with Tobi.

Kakashi beats Itachi.

Deal with it people.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

So what? If Itachi gets warped to the other dimension, he will die of starvation, eventually. He has no way of coming back on his own. How is that not a KO?

The technique itself isn't an attack. Yes itachi will die but only due to natural causes and not technique used. Neither kakashi or itachi resort to ms unless its necessary but chances are if they resort to it itachi is most likely to get the first hit since he has more options.

 

[Slug Princess Tsunade]

Is it, really?

Kamui was able to warp BM Naruto's rasengan without Obito realising it.

Kamui was never dodged once Kakashi mastered it.

Amaterasu? It can be dodged.

Not to mention Kamui can extinguish Amaterasu as shown with Tobi.

Kakashi beats Itachi.

Deal with it people.

But Kakashi can't dodge it. He is a slug compared to the Raikage. If Itachi starts with the Amaterasu Kakashi loses. If not, Kakashi wins. Simple as hell.

 

[pateuvasiliu]

The technique itself isn't an attack.

Wrong.

Kakashi was about to decapitate the Mazou with it.

But Kakashi can't dodge it. He is a slug compared to the Raikage. If Itachi starts with the Amaterasu Kakashi loses. If not, Kakashi wins. Simple as hell.

My point was that Kamui is faster since it managed to hit faster targets than Raikage, who dodged Amaterasu.

Not to mention the whole eyebleeding and air pressure part.

 

[Takos]

The technique itself isn't an attack. Yes itachi will die but only due to natural causes and not technique used. Neither kakashi or itachi resort to ms unless its necessary but chances are if they resort to it itachi is most likely to get the first hit since he has more options.

That's like saying throwing someone off a cliff is not a murder since the victim will die because of fall damage and not the push.

Also, having more options doesn't really increase chances of making the first move.