[VS] Kakakuri and Cracker vs Mihawk and Doflamingo
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chopstickchakra
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Based on what evidence? As far as we know Luffy is the only one to break out of Parasite, so we're just gonna attribute feats only achieved by the MC to other characters just because they gave him a good fight? So do you think Cracker>Jozu then?
Lord Tywin
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The gap between Doflamingo and the sweet commanders is smaller than the gap between Mihawk and rest of these scrubs. Mihawk med diffs katakuri and low diffs cracker and takes both out high diff
Rikudou Tobi
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That's fine by me but like a said in the last 3 posts I made, just make a thread about it.
I did and there was no CoO, even luffy was shouting out all his attacks at him:
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It doesn't penetrate it just attaches to the victims body. Parasite in part one used to be called marionette because it controls people like a puppet. This is all that he's doing with parasite:
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I really don't think it's plausible because it doesn't make any sense. To control somebodies "willpower" is an intangible thing that you are demanding Doflamingo to do. Not only has this not been mentioned in the manga but as far as the eyes can see, nobodies will has been conquered or broken by Parasite otherwise the whole dressrosa would've conceded to him during the revolt against doflamingo.
But it's your opinion, agree to disagree. Make a thread about it. Seriously.
He can use kings haki and arms haki but during his fights with dogtooth and dofy, he cannot use G4 haki and kings haki yet because it demands more stamina than he has to carry out a fight for a long period of time. Not even Dogtooth can use Power mochi and Kings haki at the same time during that battle. Rayleigh a Kings haki legend was only able to use kings haki 2-3 times before filling a little fatigued and this was him not using any buso haki.
The power of Kings haki is to overwhelm and when used unchecked you can end up damaging people you don't want to get hurt or possibly even you. It's the strongest haki for a reason.
One can argue (speculation) that Kings haki can not only command or make people pass out but it can even disrupt your senses to the point that you cannot change in shape properly when using your devil fruit powers making you susceptible to attacks.
Yes he does, he's always used his hands for parasite. The only time he didn't was when Birdcage was used as a medium. Besides that he's always used his hand. I know that one for a fact.
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A. I apologize, I think I used the wrong word. Instead of resilient I should have said more endurance.
B. I was not using ABC logic. I was saying that based on both of there fights and how they offensively dealt with Luffy Cracker seemed to have superior attack strength and Haki than Doffy considering Cracker could damage Gear 4th and Doffy couldnt. This would be know different from me comparing the Defense of Doffy and Big Mom based on there interaction with Gear 4. Doffy could not withstand the attack power of Gear 4th, while Big Mom wasnt even phased by Gear 4 so we can conclude Big Mom has a higher durability and defense than Doffy. Thats not ABC logic, just looking at the evidence and making a conclusion.
chopstickchakra
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I think you should go reread 799. I'll use you're line, don't believe me make a thread.
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Issho is seeing the aura's of the people in the bottom panel and he's hearing the words in the jagged speech bubbles but hearing their spirit/feelings in the circle speech bubbles with the spikes.
I'm not gonna make a thread about your misunderstanding. You keep trying to frame my words as though I'm saying Doflamingo literally alters a persons will and I've explained to you multiple times now that's not what I'm saying. What Doffy's doing is the equivalent of putting someone in handcuffs and pushing them down the street while they try to stand still. Regardless of what they want to do they are forced to follow Doffy's commands.
Reread this and let me know if you see the fallacy. "Yes he does, he's always used his hands for parasite. The only time he didn't was when Birdcage was used as a medium" It can't be always if there's an instance where it wasn't. Also he has controlled people's actions with his hands in his pockets. Doffy doesn't need to move his hands to force people to act once caught in parasite. Double checking but seems the pocket scene may have been anime only.
"It doesn't penetrate it just attaches to the victims body." According to the description it attaches to the victims' spine.
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I love that you said I try to pass stuff of as fact...
And Kings haki requires more aura and stamina than the rest of the haki - Logical assumption or not, this hasn't been stated in the manga.
He had a seconds worth of stamina for buso haki only, there was no room for any other use of haki left - Based on?
he cannot use G4 haki and kings haki yet because it demands more stamina than he has to carry out a fight for a long period of time. Not even Dogtooth can use Power mochi and Kings haki at the same time during that battle. - How do you know neither can use them at the same time? You're operating from an end of the fight scenario, what about at the start of the fight, you think they don't have enough stamina to use G4/power mochi and a burst of Kings Haki simultaneously when they're fully charged? You're essentially saying it's impossible to use high level arm haki and kings haki simultaneously which may be true but has never been confirmed or hinted at.
Rikudou Tobi
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You're using a wiki fandom? Fandom? You do realize the manga never showed parasite being explained as penetrating people's spine right?
And the manga has never shown Doflamingo control people with his hands in his pockets before, everytime he uses parasite he always holds out his fingers. If you want to disprove me you can just one scan of him using parasite without his hands (excluding birdcage).
I've never seen it once. Ever.
I didn't say that, you clearly didn't read what I posted. All I said is that it's your opinion so agree to disagree. Make a thread about it. That's it.
It's based on the fact that he's never used it before.
What doflamingo said. Did you not read my scan? I underlined it for you
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Read the @bold. Long period of time. Which they evidently were unable to do. I never said that they couldn't do it in the beginning of their battle because we'd be speculating something we've never seen. And in every logical debate we never speculate people's capability to do something they've never done before because it provides wrongful power gauging. I don't confirm things until it becomes canon.
Because we don't know what state luffy will be in IF he can use kings haki and G4 arms haki at the same time. There's a possibility that it may hinder some of Luffy's other capabilities when using both. We just don't know.
chopstickchakra
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Make a thread then. The auras alone should have been enough evidence. Also he's not just saying there's no ill will, he's able to hear there inner thoughts/true feelings as represented in the spikey circle speech bubbles.
I already covered that but listen to what you just said, the manga NEVER showed parasite being explained which means your definition of how it works is also not set, which I acknowledged last post anyway. The pocket scene was an anime scene just like the Fuji catching the string scene you kept bringing up.
The way you phrased it sounded like you were saying I was claiming an idea as fact.
So because you haven't seen something you rule it's possibility as none?
Doflamingo doesn't say he only has seconds of arm haki left and no seconds of any other haki. Doflamingo says how many more seconds can you last with that low of stamina. This is what I was questioning you on seconds worth of stamina for buso haki only no where does it say anything about arm haki only.
Here is a panel that suggests Doffy can in fact control people without waving his hands and multiple people at that
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Here's another instance
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Also the fact that the Birdcage example exists defeats the argument that it can't be done without hand motions doesn't it?
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Rikudou Tobi
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He said that he didn't hear anger in their voices, and I didn't think of those images as Obsrevation haki. In fact you wouldn't of thought that if not for the recent chapters of dogtooth vs luffy. The reason why I don't make a thread about it is because people don't care about the threads I make.
I just notice that there's strings drawn attached to people's limbs that's what I said or at least implied. I don't use anime for obvious reasons, in fact I don't watch it. I just read it. I skip the anime arc just to see the art of how G4 luffy would look like, after that I never watched it again. I'm talking strickly canon material from the manga.
I'm just put it aside until further notice. Think of it in this way.
Example:Crocodile fought Luffy and luffy beat him at the last match due to whatever reasons. We know he went to the New World, made a name for himself, and fought WB in his prime before getting his ass kicked.
Does Crocodile have haki or not? Will he show haki this timeskip? The answer is possibly yes, but we don't know that yet because we haven't seen it. so for now we have to say no, Crocodile doesn't have haki.
You get what I mean?
He never specifies on which haki it is, he just said haki in general. Just like we see Luffy's buso haki deplete during his fight with Dofy, Luffy told Brulee that haki depletes so of course Dogtooth's haki will weaken as well. This obviously includes buso haki as well for dogtooth but he doesn't have to repeat that again. So when Dofy said how many more seconds for Luffy's haki, he was talking about his stamina to use haki in general.
He was literally using Parasite with his fingers right before that page you posted. The second page is when Doflamingo stopped using parasite:
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I already said that I've never seen doflamingo use parasite without his hands excluding birdcage in the first place so I don't know why you brought that up. He created birdcage works automatically through his string clone.
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chopstickchakra
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That's not true, I and I think a lot of others assumed he had it when he could get around so well being blind, which granted is not a strong reason to think it but it is what it is. Also in DR Usopp was able to sense auras.
The only time I recall seeing more than one string was on Luffy and everyone else the string is shown going into the back of the neck area which is why they into the spine theory came about. Which instance do you remember seeing strings on limbs besides Luffy? Weren't you the one who mentioned Fuji dodging Doffy's parasite? Pretty sure that was anime only.
I'm not asking or demanding that you accept it as fact but I'm asking that you not treat the idea that the two can't be used together as fact like you have been.
I do get what you mean but at the same time I disagree with it to a bit. The fact that haki's visualization wasn't as prevalent pre skip coupled with status I feel can allow us leniency in assuming some people have traits they didn't get a chance to showcase in the limited moments we had with them. The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence, meaning just because we don't have proof something is not proof it can't be.
VA's are said to have haki, does it make any sense that a Shichibukai would then be less than a VA by not having a base requirement for VA status, yet be called one of the 3 balancing powers? The NW is a place said to eat over confident logia alive, does it make sense a Logia could go there clash with WB and return without haki? After ID most agree Croc has an awakened fruit does it make sense to assume that and not that he has haki?
@bold, right so then why did you say it was arm haki only? I'm not arguing that Luffy was low on stamina and couldn't use a lot of haki(of any type) I'm arguing you asserting it was arm haki only. But now we've said the same thing so we can move on from that topic.
Right he was using it just before, so are you trying to say in that one panel that would have been seconds time in real time that he stopped using parasite answered Trebols question then re-parasited everyone? No, the townspeople were still attacking each other, parasite didn't just stop for a few seconds so Doffy could talk to Trebol. I knew you wouldn't consider it but I've presented the evidence to suggest Doffy can control those caught in parasite without moving his hands so we're done here too.
Because the fact that he can do it in one example proves it's possible. You keep saying it's impossible despite an instance where it happens. I'm trying to emphasize this until you realize that. If we have a case of him doing something that is proof he can do it. It doesn't matter if it requires situations, it can happen.
Rikudou Tobi
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I never thought that because that would mean Issho uses haki every time he walks around meaning implying his haki never depletes. Are people saying Usopp officially has CoO now?
Luffy and King Riku were shown with more than one string. Oh yeah Sanji too.
As for Fujitori I said him and Vice admiral bastille dodge parasite simply because of the fact that they weren't controlled. Dofy was using both civilians and navy with the strings. I don't know if all the vice and admirals actually dodged on screen.
That's the thing, I'm not saying that it's not true or not a possibility. I'm just not going to argue that it's a concrete fact. I agree with you with my own biased opinion. For the Crocodile thing and the luffy haki, while on the other hand there are people on this base who completely disagree with us. But in the most unbias clear cut on paper, word for word we cannot make that argument that either of them can. Because the opposing side can make valid arguments as well. Like Luffy never showed G4 and kings haki when he first clashed with Doflamingo or Crocodile was still able to fight/beat high level opponents in the marineford war without haki etc.
I'm not going on what I know is possible right or foreshadowing to be right, I'm just going by only what we've seen just for debating sack.
When did I say it was arms haki only? It would defeat the purpose of my argument because I believe that all 3 colors use the same aura/will.
Uh no because the page I posted was doflamingo literally using parasite (written there in bold letters) while manipulating with his fingers. The following page was the first one you posted right after mine.
The second one you posted was when the whole thing was over.
chopstickchakra
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Pretty sure Usopp does have it yeah. Make a thread? lol.
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As for Issho well he was said to be a monster and we know Admirals can fight for 10 days. I'm sure casually using CoO to see is less strain then fighting on stamina and he gets to recharge every night when he sleeps.
Were they? I don't see any on Sanji(granted I know at least 1 is there)
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Yeah I wasn't trying to debate it as a fact I was always just presenting it as a hypothetical to discuss the possibility of.
On post 64. "He had a seconds worth of stamina for buso haki only, there was no room for any other use of haki left." When you say there was no room for any other haki use it sounds like you're saying he only had enough stamina to use arm haki and not kings or ob. You also said before Kings uses more stamina that's why it's not spammable. "And Kings haki requires more aura and stamina than the rest of the haki because it's superior and unspammable"
The page you posted Doffy starts Parasite, right? Then the page I posted is the page right after and we see him with his hands rested on his knees. This means 1 of 2 things. Either 1. Doffy stopped Parasite for a few seconds to answer Trebol and sit on the roof. Or 2. Doffy was watching the townspeople kill each other. Which seems more likely? If you don't agree with the scenario I laid out how do you think those scenes play out?
As for the second moment the soldiers were still attacking people as they were running up on that couple before Pica and Diamante kicked them away so parasite was obviously still active as the soldiers were still attacking civilians in order for Doffy to save them from the soldiers, right? And in that panel we see Doffy again with a hand draped over his knee and another one in the air palm up.
In both scenes they are brief moments among the chaos, why would you think Parasite would be deactivated for 2 brief moments during Doffy's takeover?
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HowDidIGetPrem
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Rikudou Tobi
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No i'm not saying it's wrong at all. Rayleigh said that haki has aura to it and Usopp is clearly saying that he sees aura. I just wanted to know if the actual OP fans confirmed this because before it was speculated to be another power similar to CoO.
However my Issho 24/7 haki point still stands though
His was the same as Luffy:
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Okay
That's not what I was saying so I can see why you're confused now. Should've been more clear but I was saying that he only had enough stamina to use one form of haki and not two of them at the same time because he still needs to fly up in the air and use King Kong Gun.
Rikudou Tobi
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HowDidIGetPrem
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Wheew, almost thought the consensus was broken. Luckily, no one with that name exists.
chopstickchakra
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Issho may not use it all the time but he saw auras like Usopp did. Plus using it for something like seeing might not be that taxing especially for someone at the level of characters who fight for 10 days especially when he gets to sleep each day where he's not using it.
As for Luffy we still don't see any strings there, we only know there was more than one because when Luffy broke free "snap" was written two or three times.
What about this though, Kings haki requires more aura and stamina than the rest of the haki because it's superior and unspammable...I believe that all 3 colors use the same aura/will. Do they all use the same amount of haki per usage or does kings haki use more per usage?
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