[VS] Kakakuri and Cracker vs Mihawk and Doflamingo

[HowDidIGetPrem]

Doffy can override a persons control over their own body which should be harder to do than anything they control remotely and he was able to do it to Jozu a commander of comparable standing in another Yonkou crew. I don't necessarily think he can control the biscuits since we've only really seen it used on living objects but I just don't think there's been any reason to say he couldn't. Why do you think he couldn't?



Doffy can make just as many strings as Cracker can biscuits so IF he could control one he could control them all. It would take Cracker longer and cost him more to try and free all his clones as more kept being controlled than to try and take out Doffy.

yeah u right. doffy could also take control of the true cracker and keep his hands from clapping. if the clapping is actually an important part of spawning biscuit warriors.

 

[Sakazuki]

yeah u right. doffy could also take control of the true cracker and keep his hands from clapping. if the clapping is actually an important part of spawning biscuit warriors.

Doffy can't take Control of cracker if he couldn't law or luffy

 

[chopstickchakra]

Doffy can't take Control of cracker if he couldn't law or luffy

A. Luffy>Cracker I think after this we could say even without Nami and B. I don't recall him using parasite on Law but just because he couldn't control them doesn't mean he can't control Cracker plus he did control Jozu and he did it before the skip. If he could get Jozu in a diamond state(partial or full I can't remember) then he should be able to get Cracker and possibly even through his biscuit as long as he could know which one held the real body.

 

[Rikudou Tobi]

A. Luffy>Cracker I think after this we could say even without Nami and B. I don't recall him using parasite on Law but just because he couldn't control them doesn't mean he can't control Cracker plus he did control Jozu and he did it before the skip. If he could get Jozu in a diamond state(partial or full I can't remember) then he should be able to get Cracker and possibly even through his biscuit as long as he could know which one held the real body.

I wouldn’t use that feat him stopping Jozu. It was a free for all sneak attack and him stopping Jozu was as affective as a sucker punch. The only reason why he was able to stop him in the first place is because half of his body was undiamond.
1 on 1 might different.
Despite the fact that Dofy, Cracker, and Jozu are in the same Warlord tier, Cracker still edged them both from what we see so parasite might not work on Cracker.

 

[chopstickchakra]

I wouldn’t use that feat him stopping Jozu. It was a free for all sneak attack and him stopping Jozu was as affective as a sucker punch. The only reason why he was able to stop him in the first place is because half of his body was undiamond.
1 on 1 might different.
Despite the fact that Dofy, Cracker, and Jozu are in the same Warlord tier, Cracker still edged them both from what we see so parasite might not work on Cracker.

We don't know that it couldn't have still went through and biscuits aren't as hard as diamond so even if it couldn't that's not evidence it couldn't go through biscuits. And the point wasn't that he got Jozu, the how can happen in any number of scenarios, the point was that once he got him he was unable to get free on his own.

 

[Rikudou Tobi]

We don't know that it couldn't have still went through and biscuits aren't as hard as diamond so even if it couldn't that's not evidence it couldn't go through biscuits. And the point wasn't that he got Jozu, the how can happen in any number of scenarios, the point was that once he got him he was unable to get free on his own.

You're right that he was unable to get out free on his own. However he cannot control cracker's real body through those hard biscuits because those biscuits were harder than Luffy's haki. And Cracker's

You must be registered for see links

.
The same gear that snapped Dofy's parasite strings by flexing his body:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

That's why parasite being able to control his body doesn't seem likely to happen. It's not like G4 luffy and Cracker are harder than diamond because that would be impossible logically but seeing how Luffy broke the strings, Cracker should be able to as well and his haki is strong enough to cut them.

That marineford thing had a lot of warlord level people preform feats that likely wouldn't happen in a one on one fight. Jozu blitzing Kuzan, Crocodile blitzing Sakazuki, Doflamingo parasite Jozu, Crocodile deflecing Hawk eye, Moriah one-shotting Oars jr., etc.
Or ate least high showings that shouldn't be common.

 

[chopstickchakra]

You're right that he was unable to get out free on his own. However he cannot control cracker's real body through those hard biscuits because those biscuits were harder than Luffy's haki. And Cracker's

You must be registered for see links

.
The same gear that snapped Dofy's parasite strings by flexing his body:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

Why Luffy broke out has never been explained and could be a number of reasons; kings haki, parasite works on controlling will and Luffy has one of if not the greatest will in the manga, expansion, arm haki etc. Even if his haki is strong enough to cut the strings on his clones if his body is caught he can't cut that string.

That's why parasite being able to control his body doesn't seem likely to happen. It's not like G4 luffy and Cracker are harder than diamond because that would be impossible logically but seeing how Luffy broke the strings, Cracker should be able to as well and his haki is strong enough to cut them.

@bold why are we attributing something a MC could due to someone just because they were able to damage said MC though?

That marineford thing had a lot of warlord level people preform feats that likely wouldn't happen in a one on one fight. Jozu blitzing Kuzan, Crocodile blitzing Sakazuki, Doflamingo parasite Jozu, Crocodile deflecing Hawk eye, Moriah one-shotting Oars jr., etc.
Or ate least high showings that shouldn't be common.

Why shouldn't it? You're acting like they're weak people because of the top tiers. They're all still strong in their own right. Moriah somehow obtained Oars whether he killed him or stole his corpse we don't know, he's no slouch though. Croc had multiple clashes with high ups. They're part of one of the main 3 power balances and you're acting like we shouldn't consider they can beat Yonkou commanders.

 

[Uverdore9]

Katakuri and Cracker.

 

[Sakazuki]

A. Luffy>Cracker I think after this we could say even without Nami and B. I don't recall him using parasite on Law but just because he couldn't control them doesn't mean he can't control Cracker plus he did control Jozu and he did it before the skip. If he could get Jozu in a diamond state(partial or full I can't remember) then he should be able to get Cracker and possibly even through his biscuit as long as he could know which one held the real body.

Obviously luffy and law > jozu. Get over it

 

[chopstickchakra]

Obviously luffy and law > jozu. Get over it

What would I need to get over, you act like this offends me? I also don't really see what Law or Luffy > Jozu has to do with this because that doesn't show Cracker>Jozu.

 

[Rikudou Tobi]

Why Luffy broke out has never been explained and could be a number of reasons; kings haki, parasite works on controlling will and Luffy has one of if not the greatest will in the manga, expansion, arm haki etc. Even if his haki is strong enough to cut the strings on his clones if his body is caught he can't cut that string.

Dude what? No it was not kings haki, luffy barely had enough haki for G4 let alone using supreme haki in which I might add doesn't look like that. Parasite does not control people's will at all, it is legitimate strings attached to the body:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

No devil fruit has the power to control people's aura or will, only kings haki is theorized to do something like that. When luffy uses kings haki there's pressure waves and black electricity on screen, but when luffy broke parasite there was none of that.

Why shouldn't it? You're acting like they're weak people because of the top tiers. They're all still strong in their own right. Moriah somehow obtained Oars whether he killed him or stole his corpse we don't know, he's no slouch though. Croc had multiple clashes with high ups. They're part of one of the main 3 power balances and you're acting like we shouldn't consider they can beat Yonkou commanders.

I think there's a misunderstanding. Besides the first mates (which holds billion bounty usually) the yonkou commander are all in the same tiers with the warlords. That's why I said that Dofy, Cracker, and Jozu are in the same Warlord tier even Croc and Moriah fit into that tier as well.
The thing is that they can't blitz all these admiral level people like that or people in the same level as them that easily. There should be some type of struggle in a 1 on 1, that's why I said the marineford was a free for all and everyone was getting their sucker punches in before flying or waiting for back up.

I'm just trying to give you an advice here that Dofy putting jozu in parasite behind his back is just as effective as Jozu blitzing Admiral Kuzan off of Whitebeard's bisento. Does it really mean thaaatt much in a fair fight?

 

[MickNerks]

I'm giving this to Katakuri and Cracker with Extreme difficulty (Because of Mihawk).

To be completely honest, Doffy is as much of a weak link to Mihawks team as Cracker would be to Katakuri's team.

From what was shown in the Manga Cracker is stronger, or at least more resilient than Doflamingo. This observation is made from both their fights against Luffy and how both faired against luffy. While cracker was able to put up some sort of resilence and offense against Gear 4 Bound Man, Doflamingo was treated like a rag doll every time Gear 4 showed up. Tha observation alone should make it clear that Cracker is above Doflamino in combat.

To compare Doflamingo to Katakuri is not necessary since it has been clearly displayed in the Manga that Katakuri is leagues above Doflamingo in regard to combat ability, haki, and stamina.

From this we can conclude that both Cracker and Katakuri are in fact stronger than Doflamingo and should be able to keep him down or incapacitate him. Mihawk is the problem here, but based on ACTUAL FEATS, Katakuri should be able to hold his own against Mihawk if not defeat him with the help of some Biscuit Soldiers (as distraction fodder).

Their is also a advatage for the Katakuri's team given that both Katakuri and Cracker are Awaken Devil Fruit Users and have shown a far higher level of durability and stamina than both Doflamingo and Mihawk (Actual Feats) thus far.

Now I know alot of people will bring up the hype of Mihawk and his battle with Shanks, but at this point we should all know that hype does not give you the neccesary data to measure Strength, Stamina, and Defense. The only thing we have to judge Mihawks combat ability is his fight against Zoro and his performance at Marineford, and neither was impressive enough to say that he is "X" times stronger than Katakuri.

The fact that most people think that Mihawk is Admiral or Yonko level is ridiculous considering we dont have the time frame of his clashes with shanks. If we use that logic than Shiki, Don Chinjoa, Sengoku, and Luffy must all be Pirate King or Yonko level because they have clashed with either Roger himself in the past or people who have clashed with Roger to a stalemate.

Shiki - Roger/Garp
Don Chinjoa - Garp
Sengoku - Shiki
Luffy - Don Chinjoa

This exactly why just hype is not a great indicater of strenght.

 

[Rikudou Tobi]

I'm giving this to Katakuri and Cracker with Extreme difficulty (Because of Mihawk).

To be completely honest, Doffy is as much of a weak link to Mihawks team as Cracker would be to Katakuri's team.

From what was shown in the Manga Cracker is stronger, or at least more resilient than Doflamingo. This observation is made from both their fights against Luffy and how both faired against luffy. While cracker was able to put up some sort of resilence and offense against Gear 4 Bound Man, Doflamingo was treated like a rag doll every time Gear 4 showed up. Tha observation alone should make it clear that Cracker is above Doflamino in combat.

To compare Doflamingo to Katakuri is not necessary since it has been clearly displayed in the Manga that Katakuri is leagues above Doflamingo in regard to combat ability, haki, and stamina.

From this we can conclude that both Cracker and Katakuri are in fact stronger than Doflamingo and should be able to keep him down or incapacitate him. Mihawk is the problem here, but based on ACTUAL FEATS, Katakuri should be able to hold his own against Mihawk if not defeat him with the help of some Biscuit Soldiers (as distraction fodder).

Their is also a advatage for the Katakuri's team given that both Katakuri and Cracker are Awaken Devil Fruit Users and have shown a far higher level of durability and stamina than both Doflamingo and Mihawk (Actual Feats) thus far.

Now I know alot of people will bring up the hype of Mihawk and his battle with Shanks, but at this point we should all know that hype does not give you the neccesary data to measure Strength, Stamina, and Defense. The only thing we have to judge Mihawks combat ability is his fight against Zoro and his performance at Marineford, and neither was impressive enough to say that he is "X" times stronger than Katakuri.

The fact that most people think that Mihawk is Admiral or Yonko level is ridiculous considering we dont have the time frame of his clashes with shanks. If we use that logic than Shiki, Don Chinjoa, Sengoku, and Luffy must all be Pirate King or Yonko level because they have clashed with either Roger himself in the past or people who have clashed with Roger to a stalemate.

Shiki - Roger/Garp
Don Chinjoa - Garp
Sengoku - Shiki
Luffy - Don Chinjoa

This exactly why just hype is not a great indicater of strenght.

Bold parts are true though and Don Chinjoa was well past his prime. His head was no longer able to split continence something that nobody in the dressrosa arc and even luffy was able to face against during their battles. Even then the fight was a complete one-shot not a actual dual that Hawk eye had with a yonkou.

 

[kiiro]

Doffy can win Katakuri

 

[chopstickchakra]

I'm giving this to Katakuri and Cracker with Extreme difficulty (Because of Mihawk).

To be completely honest, Doffy is as much of a weak link to Mihawks team as Cracker would be to Katakuri's team.

From what was shown in the Manga Cracker is stronger, A. or at least more resilient than Doflamingo. B. This observation is made from both their fights against Luffy and how both faired against luffy. While cracker was able to put up some sort of resilence and offense against Gear 4 Bound Man, Doflamingo was treated like a rag doll every time Gear 4 showed up. Tha observation alone should make it clear that Cracker is above Doflamino in combat.

You said a lot but this is the part I want to focus on.

A. ? More resilient? No. Stronger I would say we could make the case for since he was able to cut into G4 Luffy but resilient? Cracker was KO'd with essentially the first attack that made contact(granted he went through 2-3 biscuits but that's it) Doffy took so many G4 hits, like Kata did, before staying down. Doffy even managed to withstand 1 full G4 session of attacks. Cracker has a few things over Doffy but resilience isn't one of them.

B. This is literally ABC logic. A did better against B than C did so A>C.

Dude what? No it was not kings haki, luffy barely had enough haki for G4 let alone using supreme haki in which I might add doesn't look like that.

G4 runs off arm haki and as far as I recall nothing has indicated the hakis are connected. If someone had arm and king haki nothing has suggested or confirmed that if they exhausted their arm haki they would be unable to use kings haki too. Plus Luffy did that early in the fight when he still had his haki, iirc that was before the first G4 gassing period. But my point was we don't know exactly how or why Luffy was able to break out of Parasite so I don't think we should just go ahead and say Cracker can too because Luffy could.

Parasite does not control people's will at all, it is legitimate strings attached to the body:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

No devil fruit has the power to control people's aura or will, only kings haki is theorized to do something like that. When luffy uses kings haki there's pressure waves and black electricity on screen, but when luffy broke parasite there was none of that.

Doffy's strings literally force the affected body to act against their wills. Maybe control their will wasn't the right word but Doffy uses Parasite to force the victim to act according to Doffy's wishes despite what they want. That's what I meant by over-ride/over power their will. But Luffy's will is beyond others so trying to force his body to act against it's will is less likely to work. So while Doffy can usually subdue people, including yonkou commander level opponents, Luffy was still able to break free and it could just as easily be because of his strong willpower as it could be his haki was stronger than Doffys'.

I think there's a misunderstanding. Besides the first mates (which holds billion bounty usually) the yonkou commander are all in the same tiers with the warlords. That's why I said that Dofy, Cracker, and Jozu are in the same Warlord tier even Croc and Moriah fit into that tier as well.

But you said they were performing feats at MF that we shoudn't expect of them typically that's what I was questioning. Why do you think MF was a rare showing for them? Why are you assuming they're typically lesser than a 2 year old showing?

The thing is that they can't blitz all these admiral level people like that or people in the same level as them that easily. There should be some type of struggle in a 1 on 1, that's why I said the marineford was a free for all and everyone was getting their sucker punches in before flying or waiting for back up.

I'm just trying to give you an advice here that Dofy putting jozu in parasite behind his back is just as effective as Jozu blitzing Admiral Kuzan off of Whitebeard's bisento. Does it really mean thaaatt much in a fair fight?

But if they're around comparable levels then the sneak attack issue shouldn't be a hang up is my point though, you're acting like Doffy wouldn't get the chance to use Parasite if he 1v1'd Jozu or Cracker but there's no basis for that really. Plus Doffy can crate enough chaos with his strings to create an opening. Those chances may have come about easier due to the chaos but that's not the only reason some of those hits made contact and to assert so kind of detracts from the commanders and shichibukai imo. And yes it means a lot because even if it comes via luck or fluke it's a game ender(at least against Jozu and those of comparable strength from what we've seen)

 

[Uzumaki sensei]

Cracker gave a fresher luffy than the luffy that fought doffy a harder time than doffy did. Cracker beats doffy

A fresh doffy rapes cracker you cant tell me he has anything to bring to fight doffy exceptt biscuit soldiers which doffy can control with his string fruit why you bringin luffy in this he not part of the thread

 

[Rikudou Tobi]

G4 runs off arm haki and as far as I recall nothing has indicated the hakis are connected. If someone had arm and king haki nothing has suggested or confirmed that if they exhausted their arm haki they would be unable to use kings haki too. Plus Luffy did that early in the fight when he still had his haki, iirc that was before the first G4 gassing period. But my point was we don't know exactly how or why Luffy was able to break out of Parasite so I don't think we should just go ahead and say Cracker can too because Luffy could.

Did you just say that nothing indicates that haki is connected? You do realize that it's all aura/spiritual energy being used in 3 different types of forms? Haki uses stamina and nothing in the manga said that they are different, even Rayleigh said that he couldn't spam Kings haki during the Sabaody arc. Stamina is stamina, I've never heard of fatigued not effecting the user physically.
Besides that he clearly didn't use Kings haki like I said because this did not happen:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

Ruling that out the only way Luffy can possible break the strings is by arms haki and brute strength. Given the fact that the only thing that Dofy was controlling Luffy's limbs and the only thing that G4 covers in haki is his limbs seems reasonable that it is arms haki that is responsible.
Unless you think it's brute strength? I'd make a thread on it and see what people will tell you.

Doffy's strings literally force the affected body to act against their wills. Maybe control their will wasn't the right word but Doffy uses Parasite to force the victim to act according to Doffy's wishes despite what they want. That's what I meant by over-ride/over power their will. But Luffy's will is beyond others so trying to force his body to act against it's will is less likely to work. So while Doffy can usually subdue people, including yonkou commander level opponents, Luffy was still able to break free and it could just as easily be because of his strong willpower as it could be his haki was stronger than Doffys'.

He force people physically with strings. Will has nothing to do with it. I just posted a scan of Dofy controlling the King physically with strings and you denied it and said it was will? Does that make sense to you?
Devil fruits have 0% affects against haki/will. There was literally birdcage controlling people by attaching its strings to their body and Admiral Issho was seen evading the string.
What you're saying seems more like a theory than an actual fact but believe what you want.

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

But you said they were performing feats at MF that we shoudn't expect of them typically that's what I was questioning. Why do you think MF was a rare showing for them? Why are you assuming they're typically lesser than a 2 year old showing?

Yeah by the level of difficulty. Seems unreasonable that you can easily control people on the same tier as you or draw blood from someone on a higher level than you. It took luffy backed up barely able to stand up for Dofy to use parasite against him.
I feel like it would need to be the same with Jozu if it was a 1 on 1 fight, and the time it took for Dofy to land that sneak attack it required Jozu's non diamond body to be exposed.

On top of that Dofy did not train for 2 years, all he did was sit there for 2 years watching his business grow. Warlords are not known to train they get by through trickery as Dofy told Tsuru in the ship. It's the reason why jinbei told Moriah that he grown weak from not training and possibly the reason why Law reached close to Dofy in strength despite being nowhere near Dofy pre timeskip. That and we don't have a proper scaling to base Dofy on pre timskip because he didn't do anything.

But if they're around comparable levels then the sneak attack issue shouldn't be a hang up is my point though, you're acting like Doffy wouldn't get the chance to use Parasite if he 1v1'd Jozu or Cracker but there's no basis for that really. Plus Doffy can crate enough chaos with his strings to create an opening. Those chances may have come about easier due to the chaos but that's not the only reason some of those hits made contact and to assert so kind of detracts from the commanders and shichibukai imo. And yes it means a lot because even if it comes via luck or fluke it's a game ender(at least against Jozu and those of comparable strength from what we've seen)

The reason why it's highly unlikely in a 1 on 1 fight is because Law who is also in the same tier is unable to get held down by parasite. In fact during their second fight he needed Trebol to hold him down in order for him to land that attack

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

 

[chopstickchakra]

Did you just say that nothing indicates that haki is connected? You do realize that it's all aura/spiritual energy being used in 3 different types of forms? Haki uses stamina and nothing in the manga said that they are different, even Rayleigh said that he couldn't spam Kings haki during the Sabaody arc. Stamina is stamina, I've never heard of fatigued not effecting the user physically.
Besides that he clearly didn't use Kings haki like I said because this did not happen:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

But nothing says they use the same amount of stamina. Just because you've run out of the stamina needed to produce arm haki doesn't mean you've lost too much stamina to use CoO or CoC necessarily is my point. And you mention me treating my ideas as fact. Plus I'm fairly certain that Luffy still had stamina at this point since he enters G4. So what are you saying Luffy couldn't have had enough stamina at the start of G4 to throw out a little Kings Haki?

Plus, the black lightning you keep bringing up is only during Kings Haki clashes though. Every other case of kings haki like MF and FI there wasn't the lightning. The only way there would have been a black lightning clash at DR is if Doffy's parasite was also coated in Kings Haki but that's not a thing I don't think.

Ruling that out the only way Luffy can possible break the strings is by arms haki and brute strength. Given the fact that the only thing that Dofy was controlling Luffy's limbs and the only thing that G4 covers in haki is his limbs seems reasonable that it is arms haki that is responsible.
Unless you think it's brute strength? I'd make a thread on it and see what people will tell you.

No it's not the ONLY way. The strings could have lost their hold at the sudden expansion. Could have been a MC feat since I'm pretty sure he's the only one shown to break out(I still can't find Law in parasite). Could have been Luffy over powered Doffy's control through willpower. Could have been brute strength. Could have been his armament haki pushed the strings out or severed the connection or something. That was my point is we don't know definitively which one it is. We can figure which are more and less likely but we don't know which is the actual way. But I think you're too hung up on trying to disprove the idea that it could have been Kings Haki to see what I was getting at.

He force people physically with strings. Will has nothing to do with it. I just posted a scan of Dofy controlling the King physically with strings and you denied it and said it was will? Does that make sense to you?

If you are forced to act against your actions and perform the actions of another person then yes that 2nd person has over rid the will of the 1st. I even explained he doesn't alter their will, he over powers it and forces their bodies to carry out his will.

Devil fruits have 0% affects against haki/will. There was literally birdcage controlling people by attaching its strings to their body and Admiral Issho was seen evading the string.

Well that's not entirely true as we saw Law's df is able to bypass arm haki to an extent. What does the second part have to do with the discussion though? Issho was able to dodge it due to his CoO(presumably) Cracker hasn't displayed that level of CoO though. Kata yeah.

What you're saying seems more like a theory than an actual fact but believe what you want.

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

The irony. I've been saying this entire time we don't know about these particular things and could go ____ way, here are the claims you've made as fact in this thread alone;
On top of that Dofy did not train for 2 years - We never saw or heard about Doffy's time during the skip.
the time it took for Dofy to land that sneak attack it required Jozu's non diamond body to be exposed. - we don't know if his string can go through diamond or not.
Ruling that out the only way Luffy can possible break the strings is by arms haki and brute strength. - Again that's not the only way, just the only way you seem to want to accept.
Devil fruits have 0% affects against haki/will. - Because we've seen every DF or know how they all work. Until know we didn't know there were such thing as "special paramecia" or even awakenings.
However he cannot control cracker's real body through those hard biscuits because those biscuits were harder than Luffy's haki. - We don't know if it could go through biscuits or not.

Yeah by the level of difficulty. Seems unreasonable that you can easily control people on the same tier as you or draw blood from someone on a higher level than you. It took luffy backed up barely able to stand up for Dofy to use parasite against him.
I feel like it would need to be the same with Jozu if it was a 1 on 1 fight, and the time it took for Dofy to land that sneak attack it required Jozu's non diamond body to be exposed.

Idk Ace and Jinbei managed to fight for 5 days at a early point in their careers. I think the shichibukai being able to land good hits on Admirals shouldn't be a stretch, it's not like we're saying they'd win or push them to extremes. Also among each other I can see some of them having trump cards that would give them the definitive edge against their peers. Kuma, Mihawk and Doffy being the main choices imo.

On top of that Dofy did not train for 2 years, all he did was sit there for 2 years watching his business grow. Warlords are not known to train they get by through trickery as Dofy told Tsuru in the ship. It's the reason why jinbei told Moriah that he grown weak from not training and possibly the reason why Law reached close to Dofy in strength despite being nowhere near Dofy pre timeskip. That and we don't have a proper scaling to base Dofy on pre timskip because he didn't do anything.

Did he? I must have missed those chapters. Not all shichibukai are the same, just because Moriah got weaker doesn't mean Doffy would too. Jinbei attributed Moriah's decline to his reliance on his zombie army over his own strength iirc. I doubt Jinbei got weaker/didn't do any training or Mihawk or Boa or Kuma. Just because some did doesn't mean all will and we don't know which did which.

The reason why it's highly unlikely in a 1 on 1 fight is because Law who is also in the same tier is unable to get held down by parasite. In fact during their second fight he needed Trebol to hold him down in order for him to land that attack

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

I still don't remember Law being in Parasite what chapter was that because that's not a picture of Law breaking out of parasite. And not to throw another little wrench in that idea but if Law did also break out let's not ignore that the only two shown to break free would have been those of the D family.

 

[Rikudou Tobi]

But nothing says they use the same amount of stamina. Just because you've run out of the stamina needed to produce arm haki doesn't mean you've lost too much stamina to use CoO or CoC necessarily is my point. And you mention me treating my ideas as fact. Plus I'm fairly certain that Luffy still had stamina at this point since he enters G4. So what are you saying Luffy couldn't have had enough stamina at the start of G4 to throw out a little Kings Haki?

What you're saying is that there is 3 different forms of stamina that people feel which doesn't make sense considering that fatigued from stamina depletion affects the body physical whether mental or physical strain.
So using Observation haki for long affects the body physical, Arms haki affects the body phyiscally as well as kings. Even Luffy noted that Dogtooth can't use observation haki for long due to stamina.
So even if you believe that haki uses different types of aura, Luffy only has one stamina. You get what i'm saying?
Meaning that Luffy cannot use G4 arms haki and kings haki like that at the same time (for now), especially when he barely has enough stamina to stand on his two feet. That's what Dofy was mocking Luffy about when he questioned if his haki really returned because he can barely stand.

Plus, the black lightning you keep bringing up is only during Kings Haki clashes though. Every other case of kings haki like MF and FI there wasn't the lightning. The only way there would have been a black lightning clash at DR is if Doffy's parasite was also coated in Kings Haki but that's not a thing I don't think.

Even if you bring the marineford with no black lighting clash, there's still the air pressure that send people moving back when being used. That didn't happen when Luffy broke Dofy's string otherwise Dofy and his awakened stringswould be blown back from the pressure of Kings haki. He was right next to Luffy too so it would reach him.

No it's not the ONLY way. The strings could have lost their hold at the sudden expansion. Could have been a MC feat since I'm pretty sure he's the only one shown to break out(I still can't find Law in parasite). Could have been Luffy over powered Doffy's control through willpower. Could have been brute strength. Could have been his armament haki pushed the strings out or severed the connection or something. That was my point is we don't know definitively which one it is. We can figure which are more and less likely but we don't know which is the actual way. But I think you're too hung up on trying to disprove the idea that it could have been Kings Haki to see what I was getting at.

Willpower=Haki
I didn't worry about disproving the idea of Kings haki, it was obviously not and there are too many factors proving that it wasn't. I even wanted you to make a thread about it since you usually don't take my word for things until some other member confirms what I'm saying with the same scan. Similar to the whole Chrollo vs Hisoka argument we had until the actual chapter came out. So i'm use to it by now.
My focus is that we gather all logical possibilities that Luffy could break out of parasite within his capability during that state he was in.
The best one you offered me is him expanding his body to get bigger and the other two which you agreed upon being possible is arms haki and brute strength.
I was gonna use this information and apply it to Cracker/Jozu and see if both these guys can break out of parasite with brute force and or haki.

If you are forced to act against your actions and perform the actions of another person then yes that 2nd person has over rid the will of the 1st. I even explained he doesn't alter their will, he over powers it and forces their bodies to carry out his will.

He just physically attached strings to their body and moves it along with his fingers. If you can override people's will, people would not be saying things that he does not want them to say. Saying that he can override will somehow is a farfetch theory that doesn't make sense because will is not tangible enough for you to control. That's a mental thing. You're asking Doflamingo to control things that he is literally physically incapable of controlling. Just make a thread about it and you'll see people will be saying the same thing I'm saying right now. Not even Riker, and you know how senseless Riker becomes anytime it's Doflamingo related. In the past he went as far as to saying Doflamingo is Admiral level and Law was stronger than Luffy.
So just make a thread if you don't believe me or ask someone else if parasite can control people's willpower.

Well that's not entirely true as we saw Law's df is able to bypass arm haki to an extent. What does the second part have to do with the discussion though? Issho was able to dodge it due to his CoO(presumably) Cracker hasn't displayed that level of CoO though. Kata yeah.

Law's DF power was just stronger than Vergo's haki, so it just bypassed his armour it didn't affect his haki in anyway considering the fact that he was still covered in haki when cut. Arms haki doesn't do too well towards sharp objects when thrust/slice with a certain amount of strength behind it.
You're presuming Issho has observation haki but not Cracker? Issho hasn't displayed any level of Observation either. Not even Vice admiral bastille and he evaded it.

The irony. I've been saying this entire time we don't know about these particular things and could go ____ way, here are the claims you've made as fact in this thread alone;
On top of that Dofy did not train for 2 years - We never saw or heard about Doffy's time during the skip.
the time it took for Dofy to land that sneak attack it required Jozu's non diamond body to be exposed. - we don't know if his string can go through diamond or not.
Ruling that out the only way Luffy can possible break the strings is by arms haki and brute strength. - Again that's not the only way, just the only way you seem to want to accept.
Devil fruits have 0% affects against haki/will. - Because we've seen every DF or know how they all work. Until know we didn't know there were such thing as "special paramecia" or even awakenings.
However he cannot control cracker's real body through those hard biscuits because those biscuits were harder than Luffy's haki. - We don't know if it could go through biscuits or not.

His strings can obviously not go through diamond if it's unable to go through Luffy's body. Not even Hawk eyes strongest slash cut through diamond and now you're arguing that Dofy can?
DF have 0% chance to affect Haki/will, but I never said that it didn't work the other way around. The only time we've seen haki affect an awakened devil fruit is from Dogtooth and he was a special paramythia that can use his haki like a logia as well. He shot his arm off with grilled mochi and then reformed it again. Things Dofy can't do. He was unable to cover his flow mochi in haki but the peerless donut: power mochi was able to be covered in haki because he had this wireless-like connection to his fist.
the rest I covered above but it's up to you to believe it or not. Like I said before you could just make a thread about it

Idk Ace and Jinbei managed to fight for 5 days at a early point in their careers. I think the shichibukai being able to land good hits on Admirals shouldn't be a stretch, it's not like we're saying they'd win or push them to extremes. Also among each other I can see some of them having trump cards that would give them the definitive edge against their peers. Kuma, Mihawk and Doffy being the main choices imo.

With their strongest attacks I agree.

Did he? I must have missed those chapters. Not all shichibukai are the same, just because Moriah got weaker doesn't mean Doffy would too. Jinbei attributed Moriah's decline to his reliance on his zombie army over his own strength iirc. I doubt Jinbei got weaker/didn't do any training or Mihawk or Boa or Kuma. Just because some did doesn't mean all will and we don't know which did which.

Jinbei we saw some of his adventures in splash pages (i think) and he did fight or anything. I'm not saying that they got significantly weaker but they didn't get significantly stronger either. What can you say changed?

As for Crocodile I know people are going to go through this misconception that Crocodile got stronger/use haki thanks to the New World but we know that's not true because he's been in the New world before and both he and his colleagues showed no haki pre timeskip. Besides that nothing really changed.

I still don't remember Law being in Parasite what chapter was that because that's not a picture of Law breaking out of parasite. And not to throw another little wrench in that idea but if Law did also break out let's not ignore that the only two shown to break free would have been those of the D family.

He didn't break parasite. My point was that Doflamingo didn't use parasite on him personally (his own fingers) because he was unable to. He used Trebol to land some heavy blows. The only parasite he did evade like the rest of the strong people did in that island was the birdcage parasite.

 

[chopstickchakra]

What you're saying is that there is 3 different forms of stamina that people feel which doesn't make sense considering that fatigued from stamina depletion affects the body physical whether mental or physical strain.

Not at all, I'm saying you don't know that the 3 forms of haki use the same amount of stamina. So just because you're out of stamina to produce arm haki for instance doesn't mean you're out of stamina to use a burst of CoO. Besides that Luffy clearly wasn't out of Haki at the point since he entered G4 so what's your point about his stamina anyway?

So using Observation haki for long affects the body physical, Arms haki affects the body phyiscally as well as kings. Even Luffy noted that Dogtooth can't use observation haki for long due to stamina.
So even if you believe that haki uses different types of aura, Luffy only has one stamina. You get what i'm saying?
Meaning that Luffy cannot use G4 arms haki and kings haki like that at the same time (for now), especially when he barely has enough stamina to stand on his two feet. That's what Dofy was mocking Luffy about when he questioned if his haki really returned because he can barely stand.


Even if you bring the marineford with no black lighting clash, there's still the air pressure that send people moving back when being used. That didn't happen when Luffy broke Dofy's string otherwise Dofy and his awakened stringswould be blown back from the pressure of Kings haki. He was right next to Luffy too so it would reach him.



Willpower=Haki
I didn't worry about disproving the idea of Kings haki, it was obviously not and there are too many factors proving that it wasn't. I even wanted you to make a thread about it since you usually don't take my word for things until some other member confirms what I'm saying with the same scan. Similar to the whole Chrollo vs Hisoka argument we had until the actual chapter came out. So i'm use to it by now.
My focus is that we gather all logical possibilities that Luffy could break out of parasite within his capability during that state he was in.
The best one you offered me is him expanding his body to get bigger and the other two which you agreed upon being possible is arms haki and brute strength.
I was gonna use this information and apply it to Cracker/Jozu and see if both these guys can break out of parasite with brute force and or haki.


He just physically attached strings to their body and moves it along with his fingers. If you can override people's will, people would not be saying things that he does not want them to say. Saying that he can override will somehow is a farfetch theory that doesn't make sense because will is not tangible enough for you to control. That's a mental thing. You're asking Doflamingo to control things that he is literally physically incapable of controlling. Just make a thread about it and you'll see people will be saying the same thing I'm saying right now. Not even Riker, and you know how senseless Riker becomes anytime it's Doflamingo related. In the past he went as far as to saying Doflamingo is Admiral level and Law was stronger than Luffy.
So just make a thread if you don't believe me or ask someone else if parasite can control people's willpower.


Law's DF power was just stronger than Vergo's haki, so it just bypassed his armour it didn't affect his haki in anyway considering the fact that he was still covered in haki when cut. Arms haki doesn't do too well towards sharp objects when thrust/slice with a certain amount of strength behind it.
You're presuming Issho has observation haki but not Cracker? Issho hasn't displayed any level of Observation either. Not even Vice admiral bastille and he evaded it.


His strings can obviously not go through diamond if it's unable to go through Luffy's body. Not even Hawk eyes strongest slash cut through diamond and now you're arguing that Dofy can?
DF have 0% chance to affect Haki/will, but I never said that it didn't work the other way around. The only time we've seen haki affect an awakened devil fruit is from Dogtooth and he was a special paramythia that can use his haki like a logia as well. He shot his arm off with grilled mochi and then reformed it again. Things Dofy can't do. He was unable to cover his flow mochi in haki but the peerless donut: power mochi was able to be covered in haki because he had this wireless-like connection to his fist.
the rest I covered above but it's up to you to believe it or not. Like I said before you could just make a thread about it



With their strongest attacks I agree.



Jinbei we saw some of his adventures in splash pages (i think) and he did fight or anything. I'm not saying that they got significantly weaker but they didn't get significantly stronger either. What can you say changed?

As for Crocodile I know people are going to go through this misconception that Crocodile got stronger/use haki thanks to the New World but we know that's not true because he's been in the New world before and both he and his colleagues showed no haki pre timeskip. Besides that nothing really changed.


He didn't break parasite. My point was that Doflamingo didn't use parasite on him personally (his own fingers) because he was unable to. He used Trebol to land some heavy blows. The only parasite he did evade like the rest of the strong people did in that island was the birdcage parasite.

You know, I'm just gonna agree to disagree you seem to be missing the points I'm making, maybe that's my explanations idk but I'm out. btw didn't read the rest, will read it later. Might reply then idk.

Alright I'll address a couple quick points.

Issho has CoO. Check 799.

I'm not arguing Doffy can cut what Mihawk can't I'm arguing we don't know that Parasite works like a typical cutting or slashing attack that you're comparing it to. What we know is it somehow penetrates the victim and controls their body(better for you than saying over powering their will?)

Speaking of "over powering will" you seem to keep interpreting that as changing or altering their will. I'm not saying Doffy changes their will in any way I'm saying Parasite allows him to force a person's body to move opposite of their desire and if physical strength alone could break you out well I would argue Jozu has more physical strength than Doffy so he should have been able to get out but he couldn't. When I talk about Luffy's will I'm talking about that "strength" that let's him keep standing up not his fighting strength. Do I think this is the most likely answer, no but I do think it's a plausible excuse. I think the most likely is the expansion.

We don't know you can't use Arm haki and kings haki at the same time. Has there even been anything that indicated you can only activate one haki at a time?

Doffy doesn't need his hands to control parasite.