Kabuto deserves respect!

[Only naruto and nagato]

yes

 

[Wakizashi]

yes what?

 

[psukkar]

We are yet to see his motives and then judge the path he has taken to achieve his goals. I dont think ethics come into question here, as he is a villain and he will looked down upon despite him having any ethics at all. He does show respect for his enemies, but his single minded quest makes him more devious thats all. And anyway I do not mean respect as a person, but as an interesting character. No one would idealize Kabuto in real life.

thats what I though it you meant by respect, but if were simply just saying he should get more credit from his progess as a shinobi then I agree he has come a long way. But respect to me means actions and I simply dont respect him.

 

[Honord Sage]

Respected is earn not given, you must earn Respected.

 

[bornfree]

Respected is earn not given, you must earn Respected.

He has definitely earned it.

 

[Darkakatsuki]

I get the sense that you like Kabuto? Then this may be rough, but I promise to try to be as easy as I can. My apologies though in advance. :shrug:



This is a specious argument, and we can begin simply by asking where the summoner is during the fight. Everyone you listed has been directly facing their opponent except Kabuto, aside from the one fight he failed his objective to capture the jinchuuriki and settled for Yamato. This is totally different, with Kabuto safe and sound in a cave while Jiraiya etc. are exposed to attacks on the battle field where as if Kabuto's summons go down who cares he's safe. Further you said it yourself, Impure World Ressurection (IWR) is a variant of the summoning technique, it is not a summoning technique per se which you are directly comparing its usage to in other ninjas thus you have a fallacy in your argument already. For this and many other reasons, this argument is specious (i.e. flawed). Simply think about it, and I'm certain you'll begin to realize more without me elucidating further and detailing others, albeit you may not want to.




First, Jiraiya said four eyes (i.e. Kabuto) was probably on the same level as Kakashi to Naruto when Naruto wanted to fight him, not Orochimaru. I presume that that was a typo.

Next, Tsunade and Kabuto were actually having a pretty good go at it and both were impressed (Impressing Tsunade is pretty good, especially at his young age). Tsunade was about to hit him with a killer blow though, and he pulled out a little punk move by stabbing his hand to bleed in order to freeze her because of her paralyzing fear of blood following the deaths of her younger brother Owaki, a genin, (whose corpse was a bloody mess) and her lover Dan, whom she couldn't save.

This was the only time Kabuto kicked her ass, and it had nothing, I repeat nothing, to do with his fighting ability. She was in shock, and sat there taking a beating putting up no defense whatsoever until Naruto intervened, and then it was until he successfully intervened with his first Rasengan. That whole time Kabuto was acting like a complete sadist, where do you get that he was trying to hold back? He wasn't ever going for the kill, he was just having fun beating the crap out of her. Anyone can beat up a defenseless person, what a big achievement! :izuna: It's like you're reading another manga, lol.



I remember saying something regarding his technique, but I don't know that she called it superior to her technique; so show me the manga please and all of it. I believe she actually figured it out and used it if I recall to increase Lee's odds of success above 50%. I believe all she wanted was to better understand Kabuto's technique (as I stated above I believe she did) so that she could apply it healing Lee (as I stated above I believe she did), not that it was superior to her technique, which is especially hard to fathom considering hers is a Kinjutsu and requires releasing the chakra seal on her forehead; thus, it ought to have a greater lasting power than Kabuto's.

Kabuto is not the same type of medical ninja as Tsunade, and he doesn't focus on healing as she does; thus, it ought not be overtly surprising that she is superior in this facet when compared. He excels in other areas, especially due to his "experiments," which have clearly paid off in the post-time-skip era.

Further, her technique when combined with her summons, Katsuyu was used to heal all of Konoha during Nagato's invasion, something on an entirely separate level than Kabuto's. While this may be considered a limit of their respective summons, summons tend match their masters, just look at how Sasuke moved from snakes to hawks (of course I doubt the snakes would come calling to a summons after he got Manda blown up by Deidara so he kind of had to move on, lol xd).

As well, her recent use of that Hidden Cloud space-time transporter took advantage of her regeneration technique, something only the 3rd and 4th Raikage with their lightning armor could survive. Could Kabuto survive it, possibly (pre-Oro's DNA)/probably (post-Oro's DNA) {my personal speculation}, we'll never know.




Kabuto is a normal person, so how is implanting Orochimaru's DNA near impossible for normal people? What makes him not normal? He has no known relationship genetically to the Rikudou Sennin, no KG, not KT, etc. Yes, he's a genius, and he's particularly knowledgeable and gifted at genetic manipulation as demonstrated by his numerous works, but his body is still normal, so that's bull, he could've implanted Orochimaru's DNA into anyone.

Yes, he's come to some sort of equilibrium with the DNA he's injected, but he's far from being the Kabuto he was in the past, see my post just up above, which you may not have read, I don't really feel like retyping nor feel it's legitimate to just copy and paste it here.




Where does it say he mastered all of Orochimaru's snake techniques? Do you have any idea how many Orochimaru must've had considering this is the guy that wanted to master every jutsu ever, not to mention how many he's shown?!

Yes, he created a bigger and better version of Manda, which is impressive and goes with one of his best strengths, genetic manipulation. With his genius creativity he called it "Manda version 2," utterly brilliant and completely novel, lol . Seriously, he couldn't come up with a better name? That's a minor/trivial complaint, as Kishi probably needed to keep continuity for the reader, so more of a knock on Kishi, but still, pretty lame. :shrug:

Tsunade doesn't even know genetic engineering, I doubt she could do the simplest genetic manipulation, but Kabuto doesn't know her Taijutsu and how to focus his chakra to a pinpoint so that taijutsu blows deliver devastation and can blow up the land or crush opponents. Everyone has their strengths and weaknesses, so what? I'm not going to criticize Einstein because he didn't contribute to discovery of the structure of the DNA double helix, geez what an idiot, lol . Hell, Linus Pauling incorrectly thought DNA was a triple helix, and he has two Nobels. Genius's get stuff wrong and don't specialize in everything, as it's impossible. There's a saying, "a jack of all trades is a master of none." I doubt that the Rikudou Sennin was as good in every aspect of jutsu as some masters are today, i.e. Ninjutsu, Genjutsu, Taijutsu, Kinjutsu, Kenjutsu, Fuuinjutsu, etc. unless he was the exception to the rule, which is entirely possible, but don't tell me anyone else is.

Regarding Edo Tensei, you're inferring what Orochimaru could do based on what Orochimaru did do with a sample size of 1. We don't know how many summons Orochimaru could bring up, we only know he brought 2, and failed trying to bring up Minato because he's in the Shinigami. Thus, that's a specious argument based on an assumption, do you get that? Thus, we don't know that Kabuto improved the number of Edo Tensei summons that can be active at a time, although we do know that he improved the technique. He hasn't been clear exactly as to how he has improved it other than not limiting the free will of his summons as much, but other than that he hasn't been explicit in his improvements as I recall. Further, by endowing them with this free will he's cost himself plenty of battles to emotional catharsis and uncooperative ET's.

As well, he must place a talisman (which you call a seal) in every ET, as that gives him control over the ET even if he doesn't wipe the personality. Even ET Madara has a talisman in him otherwise Kabuto wouldn't have any control over him, and he could run around like Itachi is, due to that freak instance of Kotoamatsukami (Shisui's MS genjutsu) that freed Itachi by instructing him to, "protect Konoha." For every successful ET Kabuto has had such as the 3rd Raikage he's had a significant number of major gaffes like Hanzou, who totally fought Kabuto and was completely wasted. I'm not going to debate that Kabuto's usage of IWR resurrection appears to be superior to that of Orochimaru's because in my opinion it has been. Personally, I kind of wish that he could've used Hashirama and Tobirama because I'd like to see them at superior strength than I believe they were used by Orochimaru. However, you're going overboard in your praise of his Edo Tensei improvement (this is a common theme in your post). We saw Orochimaru use it once, and we have no idea how far he improved it upon where it's status was after Tobirama since Orochimaru perfected it according to Kabuto. Improving on perfection sounds a lot less impressive than perfecting something to me. Further, to me, improvement is what's more important, not the bottom line. If Tobirama had IWR operating at say conceptual to functional with a value of say 25, and Orochimaru got it to say a value of 75, and Kabuto now has it to a value of 100, surely Orochimaru gets second most credit for improving it the most to perfection and Tobirama gets the most credit for conceiving the jutsu in the first place. Kabuto, thus, should get the least credit if he made the least improvement to IWR regardless of the end result.
Real world example:

Spoiler

I work in a field of theory where ideas are everything. Proving a nonlinearity is necessary for solving something is more important than proving that the conjunction of two nonlinearities improves the performance of the solution for example.

Yes, Tsunade made a comment like this, but Blaze Release has a nice thread about taking these comments in context and not literally, as they lead to problems down the line when comparing characters. Really, it's just hype, and hype is below accomplishment and these statements tend to change when characters meet each other again. An excellent example are the confounding statements of Kisame and Itachi about Jiraiya pre-time-skip as they're inconsistent, with praise at one point and antagonism at another. It's not entirely reliable.

Further, I presume that any medical ninja knows how to make a medical scalpel, as they use them in their medical practice; thus, pulling one out in battle instead of an operating room is not particularly impressive, and proficiency comes from practice, so what? :shrug:



Capturing Yamato was not his mission! :flaw: His mission was to capture a jinchuuriki, and if I recall, Naruto specifically. He quickly realized that he could not do this with these people there despite Onooki not being able to use dust release (would blow up the tortoise island, lol) and even with Deidara at his side, so he settled for Yamato instead, and took off like a bat out of hell, to save his skinny ass. If he stayed for a prolonged conflict it would've been bad for him, and he knew it. Tobi knew this as well I speculate, which is why he gave him that mission (i.e. set him up to fail), that's my guess anyway regarding Tobi's motives.




I'll ignore the stop hating on Kabuto bit because I know it wasn't directed at me, and instead at someone else.

Kabuto at the beginning of the 4th Great Ninja War had a crapload more raw power than he has know given that so many of his ET's have been sealed, which is an inherent flaw in ET's dependency of powerful shinobi to summon being available, whereas regular summons aren't sealed. What does he have left? He has ET Madara, but he's playing the servant to ET Madara despite summoning him, lol. xd He has 1/2 Muu (can't use dust release in 1/2 form), and whatever tricks up his sleeve (maybe the Jinchuuriki's, personally confused with the six paths of Pain, and Torune, if he kept him). IWR is dramatically reduced in comparison to the start of the war; thus, so is Kabuto's raw power, until he starts restocking his DNA with powerful ninja, and they don't come around all the time. He's got "that jutsu," which you've failed to mention in Kabuto's defense for some reason as an original jutsu, not sure why when people were bringing up FRS, sage mode, etc.

Also, how is he a triple secret agent? There's Akatsuki, Orochimaru, and who else, lol? Sure, he's an excellent spy, but does he really serve that role anymore?

P.S. I don't have the time to respond to your second post. Clearly you are dedicated to Kabuto, which is fine. You were clear and open about it, so please just try to keep it objective though when arguing about your favorites, as it's the hardest thing to do. Further, if you can do it about them, you can do it about anyone, making you a strong debater on anyone in the Narutoverse. You brought up some good points in there, as well as some incorrect ones and specious arguments, but I liked the dedication, and it was pretty respectful too. Thus, +rep.

Peace

Yes it was a typo, I meant to say same level as Kakashi, I don't have that much time at the moment to give a proper reply, but to sum it up, everything you just said seems like a big lame excuse, a summon is a summon, whether human or animal or not, summoning technique rashomon is not an animal, and tayaya's summons were not animals, Pein was even able to summon human bodies and Konan, and he can summon the hell demon and demonic statue of the outer path, Ibiki has a summoning technique that summons some kind of torture prison, like I said before, take away all those from the other character's arsenal, along with animal summons, before you try and play down Kabuto's human summons.

As for Kabuto surviving the implants, be real man, we all know that there is a high death toll for dna implantation, Oro implanted Hashirama's dna on 60 subjects and only Yamato survived, the curse seal, which is a form of dna implanting (Jugo's dna) has a 9/10 death rate. You don't need to be a genious to figure out that it was Kabuto's durability/regeneration and his scientific knowledge that helped him survive that.

As for Kabuto's battle with Tsunade, you either need to read properly when someone says something or go back and either read the manga or watch the anime, Kabuto was DEFINATELY holding back, he said so himself, that she shouldn't worry because he wasn't trying to kill her but to capture her, she even asked herself why he wasn't going for vital areas. There was never a point where Tsunade had the advantage in that battle. In fact, I'm goint to go through that battle for you step by step.

1) Tsunade declares that she will kill Oro and Kabuto (note: intent to kill so no holding back).
2) Kabuto and Oro run to get to a wide area to counter her taijutsu.
3) They get to a clearing and wait for her until she arrives.
4) Oro orders Kabuto to 'capture' tsunade so that they can force her to heal him.
5) The battle starts, Kabuto uses speed and diversion tactics and quickly overwhelms tsunade by cutting off some of her tendons, one attack was aimed for her one of her lungs to incapacitate her by making her have breathing difficulties.
6) Kabuto misses her lung because of her breasts (this is tue, Kabuto said that), and Tsunade wonders why he didn't go for the killing blow.
)Kabuto, not knowing he missed the area he targeted let's his guard down and starts laughing with his head facing the sky, mocking her for disgracing the sannin that she shares with Orochimaru.

I'll stop here and explain something to you, if Kabuto was not trying to capture her but going for the kill, isn't it obvious that Tsunade would have died here. She can't be excused since she was clearly intent on killing them, but Kabuto was holding back and could clearly have illed her already.
Everything you mentioned about this battle only happened after this, when tsunade would have already died. She was able to punch him and inject her raiton into his system after the last sceneI mentioned, but that was after Kabuto let his guard down, he wasn't even looking at her when she was able to land a hit and was crackling off to the clouds (he was looking at the sky).

Before that, Tsunade just got blitzed with ease.

By the way I am not a Kabuto fan so I won't be offended, you may speak freely, I'm a Konan, Deidara, Kisame, Sasori, and Deva path (I know weird huh?) fan.

Oh did I forget Mei Terumi and Temari?

Anyway mayn I do seriously believe that you are just making excuses to downplay Kabuto. And don't talk about Kabuto hiding mayn, this is a ninja battle, not a samurai battle, you do what ever it takes to win. Jiraiya was running and hiding from Pein throughout their battle, are you going to call him weak for that? He went into hiding to set up frog song and was on the run the whole time he was trying to summon ma and pa. He was also hiding inside a barrier when he captured animal path, is there something wrong with that?

The second Mizukage is another example, he went into hiding when he summoned his joki boi to fight for him, hiding behind his clam's illusions and letting joki boi do the offensive work, he was safe behind a boulder somewhere, was he wrong for that? Does it make him weak?

Common sense, why reveal yourself and make yourself vulnerable when you don't need to? In the wave arc, Naruto almost got both himself and Sasuke killed when he just revealed himself to Haku, Sasuke and Kakashi both schasticed him and said he should have stayed hidden and taken advantage of the situation at the right time, were they wrong for suggesting hiding? Do you see now why I said you are making lame excuses, it was not to insult you, but I truly believe that is what you are doing.

Besides, if you watched Oro's battle with Hiruzen, you would know why it was stupid, or rather arrogant of Oro to summon edo's while your location is known, Oro was unable to move from his spot after he summoned the edo's, not that he couldn't have, but if he did, he would have lost concentration that was required for the technique, how can you fight while controlling other people in battle? He would have been left wide open while he was controlling Nagato and the third raikage, plus muu, just like Oro was left wide open for hiruzen to seal him in that spot he had been standing on since he summoned the edo's.

Your argument about Tsunade's praise of Kabuto is, to quite from you, a spacious argument. All the people in the manga who have said some questionable statements have either been talking about someone else or have been undercover spies who have never spoken the truth up to their last literal breath (cough Itachi cough). Tsunade had absolutely no possible reason to lie and she was talking about HERSELF, why would she have tried to make herself sound weak for no reason, and why wouldn't she know exactly what level she had reached at that age, your argument is flawed.

Kabuto acting a little like Orochimaru is no surprise and there is nothing suspicious about it, Orochimaru was his role model and he wants to surpass him in all and every way possible, add the dna implants and it is obvious he would act like a snake creep just like oro. And his sudden interest in Sasuke makes perfect sense, he needs Sasuke if he wants to attain the level that he had helped. Oro in his attempts to achieve. Naruto wants to attain peace because of his role models, Minato, Nagato, and Jiraiya, why shouldn't Kabuto have the same vision as his master? Criticizing him for that is just character assassination.

Anyway g2b, gotta get to class, wish I could say more but I can't, peace.

 

[MasterofSenjutsu]

Although I never hated or loved Kabuto, I am surprised by the lack of fans or even a strong hater base for him. I think he is one of the most interesting characters out there. Unlike most, he doesnt carry any "destiny" or "dreams" and most importantly, his character has never bothered us by soppy distracting flashbacks and all the time we have seen him, it has been in the most entertaining conflicts.

His major criticism is he is a wannabe Orochimaru, which I think is bull crap. Is utilizing what he has learned from someone strong and intelligent a drawback? Since SO6P gave birth to ninjutsu, are all ninjas wannabe rikudo? Even after Oro's death, whose motivations gave Kabuto a purpose in life, he picked himself up from a crony's status to becoming one of the key players in the fourth ninja war and he has still kept his real motivations a secret, which in my book deserves respect.

Kabuto annoys me. He's such a troll. He can be wanna-whoever, but he doesn't have to be such an *******.

 

[USSJ Future Trunks]

Edo tensei doesnt make you stong, That character he summons beats you not Kabuto

edo tensei is a jutsu. controlling others with edo is no different to controlling others with genjutsu or summoning animals. by your logic, fukasaku beat the 3 pains.

 

[Kratos of cruxis]

Pretty much every great ninja relies on others' powers for their gains.

Minato - used tobiramas space time jutsus and followed jiraiya's footsteps in sage training
Tobi- relies on bijuu, someone else's rinnegan, hashi's DNA and gedo statue which hashi prob created
Madara - his brother's eyes, hashi DNA
Gaara - mom's sand defense
Tsunade/jiraiya - rely on their summoning animals to perform their most powerful jutsus, tsunade learned her diamond head dot from mito


The list goes on and on

Thats completly wrong its not like tobirama comes pick up minato and wraps him yobi said he GAVE the rinnigun to nagato in the first place and madara has his eyes but tai gen and ninjustu is his....gaara's sand is a given like a demon to its host and tsunade/jiraiya use there chakra to summon and USES more chakra to combine attacks with there summoning attacks and where is it said she learned that justu from mito because I never seen it

 

[Kratos of cruxis]

edo tensei is a jutsu. controlling others with edo is no different to controlling others with genjutsu or summoning animals. by your logic, fukasaku beat the 3 pains.

Genjustu maybe summoning animals no because he isnt fighting with his edo's ex.gamabuta shoots oil jiraiya uses fire to set oil on fire making it stronger...kabuto doesnt do combine attacks making it a shared attack by your logic naruto cut off the shekaku's arm

 

[Kratos of cruxis]

I dont think so because I hate his fanboys they overrate him way to high and dont understand his justu

 

[Wakizashi]

I dont think so because I hate his fanboys they overrate him way to high and dont understand his justu

which jutsu are you talking bout. im not a kabuto but i just want you to be specific so i can properly understand

 

[Honord Sage]

He has definitely earned it.

No, He has not the only thing Kabuto has earn is the hate and lotting of the 5 Nations for using a forbidden jutsu,and He will be made to pay for it.

 

[madara san]

For me, the best you can say about Kabuto is that he's an opportunist. He exploits the talents of other ninja to further his own goals. This is perfectly encapsulated by his use of the edo tensei. He's cowardly and weak, but he is intelligent. He knows he cannot match the top ninjas from all the villages like Tobi, Madara or any of the other Akatsuki members can/could. But he's using other people and their actions to benefit is own plans. He could not have undertaken as large scale a plan as Tobi has, but he gladly jumps on board when the opportunity is right and he can gain the most with the least risk to him.

Now that's me being generous, because in reality he is still like a pawn of Orochimaru. He's still just working towards Oro's original goals, gaining jutsu and knowledge, working towards the Uchiha's genetic gold dust! It could be that Orochimaru is in control, that his spirit/life force has gained more control over the body itself. Kabuto is just the temporary vessel while Oro waits to claim Sasuke's body once and for all...maybe

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KABUTO IS SLIMY,WEAK AND DESERVES NO RESPECT!!
My least favourite character...

 

[leafeater]

Yes it was a typo, I meant to say same level as Kakashi, I don't have that much time at the moment to give a proper reply, but to sum it up, everything you just said seems like a big lame excuse, a summon is a summon, whether human or animal or not, summoning technique rashomon is not an animal, and tayaya's summons were not animals, Pein was even able to summon human bodies and Konan, and he can summon the hell demon and demonic statue of the outer path, Ibiki has a summoning technique that summons some kind of torture prison, like I said before, take away all those from the other character's arsenal, along with animal summons, before you try and play down Kabuto's human summons.

First, I was respectful of your post and did not describe points made as "lame excuses" as you did throughout this post, so you're lucky to get a response, albeit it'll be a brief one.

Taking away summons affects each character differently. Take away Naruto's summons, and he's affected to a degree, take away Jiraiya's and he's affected to a greater degree, take away Kabuto's and by your logic he's devastated because IWR resurrection is just another summons. However, as I've noted, and if you've read other posts such as whiteknight's reply to my reply to your original post, whiteknight actually elaborates on the distinction between IWR and summoning jutsu making it clearer why your comparison is specious as I note in my reply to him. Thus, you've not done anything that serves to disprove that IWR, a variant of the summoning jutsu, and summoning jutsu are equivalent. It's still a specious argument. That I can't make that clear to you, and that you can't see that when it's been further elaborated by others is strange. However, if you see this as a lame excuse that's up to you. As I said before, I'm not going to waste much time responding to you given the insults to prevent this from escalating potentially.

As for Kabuto surviving the implants, be real man, we all know that there is a high death toll for dna implantation, Oro implanted Hashirama's dna on 60 subjects and only Yamato survived, the curse seal, which is a form of dna implanting (Jugo's dna) has a 9/10 death rate. You don't need to be a genious to figure out that it was Kabuto's durability/regeneration and his scientific knowledge that helped him survive that.

We know that Hashirama's DNA and Juugo's DNA are special, we don't know the same thing about Orochimaru's DNA in that it has a high rejection potential. Thus, you're simply inferring and speculating. Further, you're speculating as the means by which Kabuto gain balance and control over the process of Orochimaru's DNA. It's fair to speculate that his knowledge of genetic manipulation and medical ninjutsu was a key factor but beyond that who knows as it's never detailed what he went through in the manga. There is nothing special about his physical body, it's the techniques he knows that allow him to survive damage, etc.

As for Kabuto's battle with Tsunade, you either need to read properly when someone says something or go back and either read the manga or watch the anime, Kabuto was DEFINATELY holding back, he said so himself, that she shouldn't worry because he wasn't trying to kill her but to capture her, she even asked herself why he wasn't going for vital areas. There was never a point where Tsunade had the advantage in that battle. In fact, I'm goint to go through that battle for you step by step.

1) Tsunade declares that she will kill Oro and Kabuto (note: intent to kill so no holding back).
2) Kabuto and Oro run to get to a wide area to counter her taijutsu.
3) They get to a clearing and wait for her until she arrives.
4) Oro orders Kabuto to 'capture' tsunade so that they can force her to heal him.
5) The battle starts, Kabuto uses speed and diversion tactics and quickly overwhelms tsunade by cutting off some of her tendons, one attack was aimed for her one of her lungs to incapacitate her by making her have breathing difficulties.
6) Kabuto misses her lung because of her breasts (this is tue, Kabuto said that), and Tsunade wonders why he didn't go for the killing blow.
)Kabuto, not knowing he missed the area he targeted let's his guard down and starts laughing with his head facing the sky, mocking her for disgracing the sannin that she shares with Orochimaru.

I'll stop here and explain something to you, if Kabuto was not trying to capture her but going for the kill, isn't it obvious that Tsunade would have died here. She can't be excused since she was clearly intent on killing them, but Kabuto was holding back and could clearly have illed her already.
Everything you mentioned about this battle only happened after this, when tsunade would have already died. She was able to punch him and inject her raiton into his system after the last sceneI mentioned, but that was after Kabuto let his guard down, he wasn't even looking at her when she was able to land a hit and was crackling off to the clouds (he was looking at the sky).

Before that, Tsunade just got blitzed with ease.

Mei culpa. I actually went back and reread this fight as I haven't in a while given I do have other things in my life and I presume we all forget things, sadly most people here will never admit this type of thing. One thing you forgot to mention was that Kabuto popped what was probably a soldier pill or some enhancement pill to likely compensate for his self-stated weakness in taijutsu. Either way, both ninja (as demonstrated by Tsunade's techniques later on in the Sannin standoff) were holding back and the fight never reached conclusion due to the interruption of Jiraiya et al. Thus, what one can infer from it is highly limited. If he was trying to kill her could he, possibly, but we'll never know. He was going all out to capture her while holding back only with delivering debilitating blows at times instead of lethal ones, and yes he let his guard down, but so what, that's his fault as one of his major weaknesses is his arrogance just like Orochimaru. Personally, I don't find the fight highly informative of where Kabuto is now, nor where Tsunade is now in a Taijutsu fight. Further, while this is speculation, I have a feeling Tsunade was rusty and saw Kabuto as an obstacle to Orochimaru rather than as a goal in itself as Kabuto saw Tsunade. This is speculation, but it makes common sense, and we know she held back jutsu until confronting Orochimaru. However, again we'll never know. The fight was more of an interrupted skirmish that one should not interrupt much from, at least that's my personal assessment. You're free to disagree. Thus, whenever recalling the manga, what you really should've done was just pointed out when the fight started rather than writing everything down (which takes time and too much space), and linked the manga page like so... Further, this way anyone reading now has the canon of the fight and doesn't have to worry about any mistaken recollections (as humans are prone to), lol.

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By the way I am not a Kabuto fan so I won't be offended, you may speak freely, I'm a Konan, Deidara, Kisame, Sasori, and Deva path (I know weird huh?) fan.

Oh did I forget Mei Terumi and Temari?

Even so, you over-rate him, such that when I put things into perspective you consider it downplaying him and appear to lose objectivity. While you may not be a Kabuto fan you take a critique of your argument personally such that you become defensive and thus boost your side whether your aware of this or not. The point of this is not to win or lose the argument. I stipulated above that I forgot some of the details of the initial fight with Kabuto and Tsunade, and I then went and reread the manga. It's not a big deal, and I didn't over-react or take it personally, albeit your ad hominem comments were unnecessary, a habit you might want to consider losing to gain respect. I have stated he's in my active ninja top 10, and unless people die and/or he demonstrates something new and impressive, he ain't moving up. I hardly see how that's downplaying him and acting dismissive.

Anyway mayn I do seriously believe that you are just making excuses to downplay Kabuto. And don't talk about Kabuto hiding mayn, this is a ninja battle, not a samurai battle, you do what ever it takes to win. Jiraiya was running and hiding from Pein throughout their battle, are you going to call him weak for that? He went into hiding to set up frog song and was on the run the whole time he was trying to summon ma and pa. He was also hiding inside a barrier when he captured animal path, is there something wrong with that?

The second Mizukage is another example, he went into hiding when he summoned his joki boi to fight for him, hiding behind his clam's illusions and letting joki boi do the offensive work, he was safe behind a boulder somewhere, was he wrong for that? Does it make him weak?

Common sense, why reveal yourself and make yourself vulnerable when you don't need to? In the wave arc, Naruto almost got both himself and Sasuke killed when he just revealed himself to Haku, Sasuke and Kakashi both schasticed him and said he should have stayed hidden and taken advantage of the situation at the right time, were they wrong for suggesting hiding? Do you see now why I said you are making lame excuses, it was not to insult you, but I truly believe that is what you are doing.

IWR is totally different than Jiraiya and the 2nd Mizukage temporarily hiding while they're performing a technique that leaves them highly vulnerable or they just had they're arm chopped off and are dying. Kabuto is miles away from the battle scene and with some of the Edo Tensei's he's not even issuing battle instructions. Does he deserve credit for the fight against the 5 Kage or does ET Madara? It's shared. Kabuto deserves credit for the preparation and execution of IWR of ET Madara along with the enhancements, but he deserves zero credit for the actual battle itself. He's exerting no control whatsoever over Madara who is fighting with his own mind and his own free will without any interference from Kabuto. Which deserves more credit finding the DNA, performing the ritual, and doing the enhancement, or battling the 5 Kages at once? I think that's pretty clear. Further, I never called Kabuto weak nor a coward, where you got that from, I don't know, but it's not from me.

Besides, if you watched Oro's battle with Hiruzen, you would know why it was stupid, or rather arrogant of Oro to summon edo's while your location is known, Oro was unable to move from his spot after he summoned the edo's, not that he couldn't have, but if he did, he would have lost concentration that was required for the technique, how can you fight while controlling other people in battle? He would have been left wide open while he was controlling Nagato and the third raikage, plus muu, just like Oro was left wide open for hiruzen to seal him in that spot he had been standing on since he summoned the edo's.

While I haven't reviewed that fight recently, I have it fairly well in my head, and that was not the sole reason he lost. Besides, Kabuto when he attacked the tortoise island holding Bee and Naruto with ET Deidara did so with his location known but let Deidara have free will since he didn't understand Deidara's techniques. Thus, his position was known and he summoned an Edo, so was Kabuto being stupid, or is the position just more sophisticated than you proposed it to be? I believe it's the latter. Would Orochimaru have faired differently if he used his Edo's differently against Hiruzen, or used different Edo's with different personalities that would have allowed him to move about? I believe the position that your stating is merely a simplification, generalized from a sample size of a single battle. Further, Kabuto's later use of Edo Tensei without being hidden contradicts your position as well.

Your argument about Tsunade's praise of Kabuto is, to quite from you, a spacious argument. All the people in the manga who have said some questionable statements have either been talking about someone else or have been undercover spies who have never spoken the truth up to their last literal breath (cough Itachi cough). Tsunade had absolutely no possible reason to lie and she was talking about HERSELF, why would she have tried to make herself sound weak for no reason, and why wouldn't she know exactly what level she had reached at that age, your argument is flawed.

The term is specious, not spacious. Statements uttered in excitement and uttered in battle are not necessarily reliable and must be taken in context, as character assessments outside of such states are often much more measured; thus, it's not specious, especially, since all I was saying is that her statements had to be taken in the context of when she was saying them, not that her credulity (e.g. Tobi/Itachi, very different) was the reason that they may change in value or measure.

Kabuto acting a little like Orochimaru is no surprise and there is nothing suspicious about it, Orochimaru was his role model and he wants to surpass him in all and every way possible, add the dna implants and it is obvious he would act like a snake creep just like oro. And his sudden interest in Sasuke makes perfect sense, he needs Sasuke if he wants to attain the level that he had helped. Oro in his attempts to achieve. Naruto wants to attain peace because of his role models, Minato, Nagato, and Jiraiya, why shouldn't Kabuto have the same vision as his master? Criticizing him for that is just character assassination.

It's not character assassination whatsoever. Naruto is not a clone of Minato, Nagato, or Jiraiya, despite sharing similar goals as the example you gave; thus, it's a poor comparison. The point that was being made is that it's unoriginal, uncreative, and that is on the author.

Anyway g2b, gotta get to class, wish I could say more but I can't, peace.

That's fine, and feel free to reply, but I'm done, given the amount of time and respect I've given you without the reciprocity. Next time leave out the ad hominem remarks and statements regarding my arguments, which you deem as "lame excuses." :shrug:

Peace

 

[bornfree]

First, I was respectful of your post and did not describe points made as "lame excuses" as you did throughout this post, so you're lucky to get a response, albeit it'll be a brief one.

Taking away summons affects each character differently. Take away Naruto's summons, and he's affected to a degree, take away Jiraiya's and he's affected to a greater degree, take away Kabuto's and by your logic he's devastated because IWR resurrection is just another summons. However, as I've noted, and if you've read other posts such as whiteknight's reply to my reply to your original post, whiteknight actually elaborates on the distinction between IWR and summoning jutsu making it clearer why your comparison is specious as I note in my reply to him. Thus, you've not done anything that serves to disprove that IWR, a variant of the summoning jutsu, and summoning jutsu are equivalent. It's still a specious argument. That I can't make that clear to you, and that you can't see that when it's been further elaborated by others is strange. However, if you see this as a lame excuse that's up to you. As I said before, I'm not going to waste much time responding to you given the insults to prevent this from escalating potentially.



We know that Hashirama's DNA and Juugo's DNA are special, we don't know the same thing about Orochimaru's DNA in that it has a high rejection potential. Thus, you're simply inferring and speculating. Further, you're speculating as the means by which Kabuto gain balance and control over the process of Orochimaru's DNA. It's fair to speculate that his knowledge of genetic manipulation and medical ninjutsu was a key factor but beyond that who knows as it's never detailed what he went through in the manga. There is nothing special about his physical body, it's the techniques he knows that allow him to survive damage, etc.



Mei culpa. I actually went back and reread this fight as I haven't in a while given I do have other things in my life and I presume we all forget things, sadly most people here will never admit this type of thing. One thing you forgot to mention was that Kabuto popped what was probably a soldier pill or some enhancement pill to likely compensate for his self-stated weakness in taijutsu. Either way, both ninja (as demonstrated by Tsunade's techniques later on in the Sannin standoff) were holding back and the fight never reached conclusion due to the interruption of Jiraiya et al. Thus, what one can infer from it is highly limited. If he was trying to kill her could he, possibly, but we'll never know. He was going all out to capture her while holding back only with delivering debilitating blows at times instead of lethal ones, and yes he let his guard down, but so what, that's his fault as one of his major weaknesses is his arrogance just like Orochimaru. Personally, I don't find the fight highly informative of where Kabuto is now, nor where Tsunade is now in a Taijutsu fight. Further, while this is speculation, I have a feeling Tsunade was rusty and saw Kabuto as an obstacle to Orochimaru rather than as a goal in itself as Kabuto saw Tsunade. This is speculation, but it makes common sense, and we know she held back jutsu until confronting Orochimaru. However, again we'll never know. The fight was more of an interrupted skirmish that one should not interrupt much from, at least that's my personal assessment. You're free to disagree. Thus, whenever recalling the manga, what you really should've done was just pointed out when the fight started rather than writing everything down (which takes time and too much space), and linked the manga page like so... Further, this way anyone reading now has the canon of the fight and doesn't have to worry about any mistaken recollections (as humans are prone to), lol.

You must be registered for see links

Even so, you over-rate him, such that when I put things into perspective you consider it downplaying him and appear to lose objectivity. While you may not be a Kabuto fan you take a critique of your argument personally such that you become defensive and thus boost your side whether your aware of this or not. The point of this is not to win or lose the argument. I stipulated above that I forgot some of the details of the initial fight with Kabuto and Tsunade, and I then went and reread the manga. It's not a big deal, and I didn't over-react or take it personally, albeit your ad hominem comments were unnecessary, a habit you might want to consider losing to gain respect. I have stated he's in my active ninja top 10, and unless people die and/or he demonstrates something new and impressive, he ain't moving up. I hardly see how that's downplaying him and acting dismissive.




IWR is totally different than Jiraiya and the 2nd Mizukage temporarily hiding while they're performing a technique that leaves them highly vulnerable or they just had they're arm chopped off and are dying. Kabuto is miles away from the battle scene and with some of the Edo Tensei's he's not even issuing battle instructions. Does he deserve credit for the fight against the 5 Kage or does ET Madara? It's shared. Kabuto deserves credit for the preparation and execution of IWR of ET Madara along with the enhancements, but he deserves zero credit for the actual battle itself. He's exerting no control whatsoever over Madara who is fighting with his own mind and his own free will without any interference from Kabuto. Which deserves more credit finding the DNA, performing the ritual, and doing the enhancement, or battling the 5 Kages at once? I think that's pretty clear. Further, I never called Kabuto weak nor a coward, where you got that from, I don't know, but it's not from me.



While I haven't reviewed that fight recently, I have it fairly well in my head, and that was not the sole reason he lost. Besides, Kabuto when he attacked the tortoise island holding Bee and Naruto with ET Deidara did so with his location known but let Deidara have free will since he didn't understand Deidara's techniques. Thus, his position was known and he summoned an Edo, so was Kabuto being stupid, or is the position just more sophisticated than you proposed it to be? I believe it's the latter. Would Orochimaru have faired differently if he used his Edo's differently against Hiruzen, or used different Edo's with different personalities that would have allowed him to move about? I believe the position that your stating is merely a simplification, generalized from a sample size of a single battle. Further, Kabuto's later use of Edo Tensei without being hidden contradicts your position as well.



The term is specious, not spacious. Statements uttered in excitement and uttered in battle are not necessarily reliable and must be taken in context, as character assessments outside of such states are often much more measured; thus, it's not specious, especially, since all I was saying is that her statements had to be taken in the context of when she was saying them, not that her credulity (e.g. Tobi/Itachi, very different) was the reason that they may change in value or measure.



It's not character assassination whatsoever. Naruto is not a clone of Minato, Nagato, or Jiraiya, despite sharing similar goals as the example you gave; thus, it's a poor comparison. The point that was being made is that it's unoriginal, uncreative, and that is on the author.



That's fine, and feel free to reply, but I'm done, given the amount of time and respect I've given you without the reciprocity. Next time leave out the ad hominem remarks and statements regarding my arguments, which you deem as "lame excuses." :shrug:

Peace

thanks for taking time to reply to so many

 

[Darkakatsuki]

Dude, you are the one taking things personally and being defensive, dont project yourself unto me, And I even told you to speak freely as I wont be offended, how is that taking things personally and being defensive?

Kabuto didnt let Deidara fight on his own just because of a supposed lack of understanding of abilities, he let him fight on his own without controlling him because Deidara was on their side from the get go, he is an Akatsuki member afterall, Kabuto even noted this as a reason, you are putting the scenario completely out of context. And it shouldnt be too hard to see the difference between summoning a a loyal member that doesnt need to be controlled and summoning a kage who needs to be controlled or else he will tell his opponents all his weaknesses and even warn them before he attacks and tell them what jutsu he is using, like Itachi and nagato were doing, and even Muu. And I can tell by your arguments that you are DEFINATELY smart enough to realise this and are either just in denial/hating or playing down Kabuto's achievements. Seriously mayn, how can you possibly watch your back and fight while controlling all these rebelious shinobi? Hiding is the only option. And regardless of the reason Jiraiya and the Mizukage went into hiding to use their techniques, they still went into hiding and like I said before, this isnt a samurai battle, this is a ninja battle, tactics, deception, soldier pills (Even choji used super powered ones against Kidomaru but I dont see people saying he is weak or cheated or whatever.) And mayn do you realise that even mentioning that Kabuto summoned without hiding is contradicting your own argument about Kabuto being a 'summon and hide coward?' Besides, why must YOU decide which way is correct and which isnt for Kabuto to use any jutsu in his arsenal?

Your argument about words spoken in heated battle have absolutely no substance, it is just your opinion, not a fact, and it is a biased opinion, even a child could have seen through that, like I said before, Tsunade had absolutely no reason to lie or in any manner at all deceive anyone. And in fact, being in a heated battle with Kabuto gives us even more reason to believe her then if she just pulled that out of her ass like how Naruto said that Kakashi had a better nose then Kiba during the second bell test when he hadnt met Kiba for three whole years and had no idea how much he had developed, more then that, it was later proven in a later arc that Akamaru, Kakashi and his ninken too were way below Kiba in that department when they had to track Sasuke, at least Tsunade was comparing to herself against Kabuto while his abilities were on display, right in front of her and being on the receiving end of his display.

Kabuto taking a pill before the fight? Come yo, seriously? Didnt Hayate tell Naruto that a soldier pill and a dog (Kiba vs naruto chuunin exams) was a ninja tool just like a kunai and an exploding tag? and didnt everyone agree? wasnt the fight continued even with the soldier pill taken by both Kiba and Akamaru and wasnt the fight consider completely within the rules and legal? Mayn you say that I am insulting you and acting defensive when I call your statements lame excuses but seriously mayn have you taken another look at what you wrote? It's like saying Tsunade cheated against Orochimaru cause she healed herself with a seal on her forehead, Kabuto is a medic mayn and he probably made that pill himself, and if he didnt, it is still a ninja tool in a ninja battle. Note: Refer to Choji example above.

"Specious", if you were trying to humiliate me by pointing that out, as I dont see the point of it either then that, then you should also consider the fact that not everyone has english has their home, second, or even third language for that matter, english is the fourth out of the six languages that I speak, but in any case I suppose I have learned a lesson and will not repeat the same mistake again.

As for the point you made about degrees of being affected by lack of summons, not to be rude but i dont see how that is relevant? If you have to take away something a character has to make a point, is there really a point. eg. Deidara without clay, Itachi and Sasuke without sharingan (ms), Nagato without rinnegan? Minato without Hirashin? And one of your own Jiraiya without summons?All these people would be significantly weaker or even plain weak without those, and so would Kabuto be weaker without edo, so what? I truly do not get the point of taking away something that a character learned and even improved in this kind of argument.

Sure Naruto isnt a clone of Jiraiya, but is Kabuto a clone of Orochimaru, before Naruto mastered KM, he had the same goals as Jiraiya and even the same fighting style, Sage mode, rasengan, giant rasengan, ma and pa, toad summons, and two goals, to bring back his so called 'dear' friend and to bring peace to the world. Yes he had apparently surpassed Jiraiya despite using the same techniques, but so has Kabuto, bigger and stronger manda, better edo tensei, very limited blind spot (the snake tail on his back) and no sickness because of rebirth technique or whatever that thing is when he takes over other people's bodies. as for goals and ambitions, I believe that, no actually, it is a FACT that Kabuto told Naruto that he implanted Oro into his body because of Naruto, he thought that if he could supress Oro's will and control his power, just like Naruto was doing and on his way to doing with the fox, then he would be able to truly strong. It was Naruto's ability to have a seperate identity from the fox that inspired him to do what he did. He even promised Naruto that he would subdue oro and control his powers, which is what he has done. He also stated on more then one occasion that he would be even greater then oro and surpass him, which we have seen many signs of, the better edo tensei and the better summon being clues. There is nothing wrong with Kabuto ising the same/similar techniques to his master and there is nothing wrong with him trying to get sasuke just like oro, he needs to do it to become better then oro and he needs for knowledge, Kabuto has always been a scholar first and has always been intrigued by science and knowledge in itself, is it really a surprie that he would be interested in the powers of the sage of the six paths, is it a surprise that he wants to know all jutsu, how else would he surpass the man that dedicated his life to that? and how is that not natural for a scholar to follow in his master's footsteps?

Your argument about Jugo and Hashirama's dna being special is also not valid mayn unless you can name an instant where someone's dna didnt have a high death toll during transplant. Do you really think the 'special dna' card can work here? Are you seriously saying there is nothing special about a person who's true form (Ssuke vs Oro battle) is a humanoid snake isnt special? Someone who was cut in half by Kyubi Naruto and not only didnt die but was able to reatach the two halves of his body, someone who has inhibited many bodies and doesnt even look human but like a snake. Someone who can take the form of an eight headed giant snake and whose blood releases a paralise toxin when he is cut. Seriously mayn, what isnt special about Oro's dna? The guy is a pseudo immortal even and spits out new bodies when damaged. How can he possibly not have special dna? His dna might even be more special then Jugo, I mean his dna had a will of its own that even tried to take over Kabuto, come yo, be real yo.

And again you accuse me of overating Kabuto, but you should take a better look at what you are doing, when you refer to things in the manga, you point out irrelevant scenes or actions, like Kabuto taking a soldier pill, or, you point out things that either contradict you or are incomplete truths, like when you mentioned Kabuto's summon of deidara. Or what I can only call excuses that have no credible back up, like the special dna card you pulled. And then you try to dictate how a person should use their techniques and make unrealistcic comparisons, once again willing, no need to control deidara summoning compared to like 20 UNWILLING summons. And then you excuse away Naruto's similarities to Jiraiya, only noting the differences, but intentionally ignore the differences between Kabuto and Orochimaru, only noting the similarities. I'm not the one overating Kabuto, you are the one underating him.

I apologise if you were offended by me calling your arguments 'lame excuses', I guess I was acting too familiar with you and was not conciderate of the distance barrier, where I'm at, me and my friends use seemingly offensive phrases like that casually with each other without anyone feeling offended, insulted or humiliated. But then some people are more sensitive then others and especially so when it is someone you dont know and cant see on a forum, without body language or facial expressions, i guess I could see how you could have come to the conclusion that I was being rude and defensive, but I was in no way being like defensive, not even close. anyway hardy mayn, I'll try my best to make sure it dont happen again.

Having said that though, dont you think you are overeacting and being subjective and lacking in objectivuty yourself? I mean this is a naruto fanbase forum, I would understand if we were in a formal meeting of political or business relations, sure its a discussion, but an anime discussion forum, I seriously think you overeacted to some of the things I said and blew them way out of proportion, and some of the things you accused me of were very hypocritcal, considering that you were easily guilty of doing those yourself. I have accepted your critism and defended myself accordingly, but please do the same and take a closer look at yourself before you point at others, I also didnt appreciate the 'high and mighty' attitude you seemed to exhibit throughout our debate.

And dont jump the gun and accuse people of insults when they criticise you, it is natural for people to criticise someone's argument and point out loopholes in it (and I'm not talking about spelling mistakes in a fan forum), otherwise how would people get to a conclusion.

I've said enough, peace.

 

[Wakizashi]

why on every thread the longest arguments start? just agree to disagree and move on to another thread.

 

[suffering]

I accept, he is one tough son of a bitch!