[Discussion] Juha Bach vs Aizen

Mahesvara

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Really? what about gremmy powers(and he isn't even top quincies)??

edit: plus he couldn't use ks against ichigo in his ultimate form so he is as good as dead if he enters that form
Gremmy's ability has one fatal flaw, if someone can freak out and manipulate the mind of the user the powers can back fire just like they did against Kenpachi.

Is it confirmed he can't use KS in that form? It could be that he didn't want to use it, because Ichigo said after fighting him it felt like at the end Aizen just wanted to face a challenging opponent.
 

Goetia

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Yhwach would need most of the Sternritter letters, if not all, to take Aizen. Also, Aizen must be sealed, though I have no doubt that Yhwach is capable of creating a good enough seal.

Here's my verdict.

If Yhwach has less than half the Sternritter letters, Aizen wins mid diff.

Yhwach with most Sternritter letters, either Yhwach or Aizen really high diff.

Yhwach with all letters, Yhwach wins with mid diff.
 

Joseph Gomes

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Juha is already under Aizen's illusion XD

But seriously, Aizen is still God tier level. Juha can only win if he as all the stern ritter powers. Otherwise KS solos anybody. Aizen not soloing Bleachverse is a plothole itself. Never, ever underestimate Aizen

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7th Biggest OP Fan

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Its like people don't understand what happened in Bleach and just wank Aizen because haxs KS.


Aizen does not have Kyōka Suigetsu anymore.

Ichigo destroyed Aizen's sword with Mugetsu.

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Aizen just thought he was ascending again, and we all know how that turned out.
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So people saying Juha Bach is in KS already don't know shit.
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All Aizen did was confuse his perception of time. KS has never shown this ability to manipulate the perception of time.

Shikai Special Ability: The special ability of Kyōka Suigetsu is Kanzen Saimin (完全催眠, Complete Hypnosis).[215] It controls the five senses to the point where it can make the target misinterpret another person's form, shape, mass, feel, and smell to be an enemy's. The initiation condition for the hypnosis is to show the enemy the release of Kyōka Suigetsu.

Only the 5 senses it is capable of manipulating.

So Bach is not under KS because he does not have his sword anymore because it was destroyed, and KS does not have the ability to manipulate time anyways.. He did something else to Bach which we do not know of.


Anyways, which version of Aizen are people arguing for. It seems people are trying to combine the different versions of Aizen. people are using current Aizen and saying he is under KS(which is not true to what I said earlier) and Monster Aizen before Aizen met Bach. You have to pick one version. I'd pick Monster tbh since he is the strongest form of Aizen. But then people would have to argue how Bach is being put under KS. Since Aizen was not able to do so when fighting Ichigo in battle, I doubt he can perform the ritual against Bach.

Juha Bach win this mid difficulty. Aizen won't have time to put him in KS, if he is even capable of doing so in monster form since he has not been shown to do so, and because Bach is just that much stronger. Even in base he was able to take on Yamamoto which Aizen said he wasn't capable of doing. Now you add Yamamotos Bankai, his quincy powers, and all of the letters he can absorb at will, its gg.
 
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Goetia

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Its like people don't understand what happened in Bleach and just wank Aizen because haxs KS.


Aizen does not have Kyōka Suigetsu anymore.

Ichigo destroyed Aizen's sword with Mugetsu.

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You must be registered for see images

Aizen just thought he was ascending again, and we all know how that turned out.
You must be registered for see images

So people saying Juha Bach is in KS already don't know shit.
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All Aizen did was confuse his perception of time. KS has never shown this ability to manipulate the perception of time.

Shikai Special Ability: The special ability of Kyōka Suigetsu is Kanzen Saimin (完全催眠, Complete Hypnosis).[215] It controls the five senses to the point where it can make the target misinterpret another person's form, shape, mass, feel, and smell to be an enemy's. The initiation condition for the hypnosis is to show the enemy the release of Kyōka Suigetsu.

Only the 5 senses it is capable of manipulating.

So Bach is not under KS because he does not have his sword anymore because it was destroyed, and KS does not have the ability to manipulate time anyways.. He did something else to Bach which we do not know of.


Anyways, which version of Aizen are people arguing for. It seems people are trying to combine the different versions of Aizen. people are using current Aizen and saying he is under KS(which is not true to what I said earlier) and Monster Aizen before Aizen met Bach. You have to pick one version. I'd pick Monster tbh since he is the strongest form of Aizen. But then people would have to argue how Bach is being put under KS. Since Aizen was not able to do so when fighting Ichigo in battle, I doubt he can perform the ritual against Bach.

Juha Bach win this mid difficulty. Aizen won't have time to put him in KS, if he is even capable of doing so in monster form since he has not been shown to do so, and because Bach is just that much stronger. Even in base he was able to take on Yamamoto which Aizen said he wasn't capable of doing. Now you add Yamamotos Bankai, his quincy powers, and all of the letters he can absorb at will, its gg.
The ability of Kyōka Suigetsu is manipulation of the opponent's five senses, which can in turn, no doubt lead to time perception if you play about with the senses of touch, sight and hearing. And the scan of Yhwach and Haschwalth you provided is inaccurate when against the likes of MS scans, so let me grab that for you.

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In this scan, Yhwach claims that his senses were disrupted. Here is the definition of disrupt.

disrupt
dɪsˈrʌpt/Submit
verb
interrupt (an event, activity, or process) by causing a disturbance or problem.

OR

drastically alter or destroy the structure of.

Both definitions can fit the context of which Yhwach used the word disrupt. Confuse can be used as well, though it isn't as accurate.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to argue against the entire post, since I can agree with it. Just trying to say that Kyoka Suigetsu actually merged with Aizen.
 

Ultimateone

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in order to be under the effects of KS you have to see aizens shikai. which as far as we know is some kind of ritual that he showed everyone in the gotei 13. he couldn't have shown juha bach it because he no longer has a zanpakuto. most likely though he has some way to minipulate perception on a much smaller scale. but nowhere near what he could do before. aizen may have the hokyoku, but it no longer deams him as it's master. based on hype though, juha bach wrecks aizen.
 

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He's under KS it doesn't matter plus he has Hogyoku and that wrecks.
Aizen don't have KS anymore, and as long as we know Hogyoku don't acknowledge him as his master anymore.

OT: Yhwach win this.

Current Yhwach > Beginning of this arc Yhwach >/= Hogyoky Aizen > Shinigami Aizen >/= Current Aizen
 
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Forbidden Tale

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The ability of Kyōka Suigetsu is manipulation of the opponent's five senses, which can in turn, no doubt lead to time perception if you play about with the senses of touch, sight and hearing. And the scan of Yhwach and Haschwalth you provided is inaccurate when against the likes of MS scans, so let me grab that for you.

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In this scan, Yhwach claims that his senses were disrupted. Here is the definition of disrupt.

disrupt
dɪsˈrʌpt/Submit
verb
interrupt (an event, activity, or process) by causing a disturbance or problem.

OR

drastically alter or destroy the structure of.

Both definitions can fit the context of which Yhwach used the word disrupt. Confuse can be used as well, though it isn't as accurate.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to argue against the entire post, since I can agree with it. Just trying to say that Kyoka Suigetsu actually merged with Aizen.
Actuall, scan of MS is wrong here... You can see that by Hashwalth's talk. He said "We have reached the time limit" and "allow us to back to Vandenreich"... In both he refer like he also don't have time anymore, but actually Yhwach is the only one who reached limit and from an unknown reason he can't stay from longer period of time, outside of shadown, other Quincies can... Still MS mistranslated that and said that it's the case with all Quincies, which is not true.

When it comes to Bleach, best translation on internet is that of BadKarma from Manga Helpers and it say:

Page 12
Haschwald:影の領域(シャッテン・ベライヒ)圏外での活動限界です
You have reached the limit for activity outside of the Schatten Bereich*
*TN: German for “Shadow Region”. Kanji mean the same.
Haschwald:見えざる帝国へお戻り下さい
Please return to Vandenreich

Juhabach:馬鹿な
Impossible
Juhabach:まだ時間は―――――
I still have-------

Juhabach:・・・そうか
…I see
Juhabach:藍染惣右介
Aizen Sousuke
Juhabach:奴の小細工か
So this is one of his tricks
Juhabach:接触した数分間に私の感覚を僅かに狂わせたか・・・
He imperceptibly confused my sense of time during the few moments I was in contact with him…

Juhabach:ハッシュヴァルト
Haschwald
Juhabach:貴様気付いて黙っておったな
You were aware of this and remained silent?

Haschwald:お止めしても
I believed trying to stop you
Haschwald:無駄かと思いまして
Would be futile
 
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Goetia

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Actuall, scan of MS is wrong here... You can see that by Hashwalth's talk. He said "We have reached the time limit" and "allow us to back to Vandenreich"... In both he refer like he also don't have time anymore, but actually Yhwach is the only one who reached limit and from an unknown reason he can't stay from longer period of time, outside of shadown, other Quincies can... Still MS mistranslated that and said that it's the case with all Quincies, which is not true.

When it comes to Bleach, best translation on internet is that of BadKarma from Manga Helpers and it say:

Page 12
Haschwald:影の領域(シャッテン・ベライヒ)圏外での活動限界です
You have reached the limit for activity outside of the Schatten Bereich*
*TN: German for “Shadow Region”. Kanji mean the same.
Haschwald:見えざる帝国へお戻り下さい
Please return to Vandenreich

Juhabach:馬鹿な
Impossible
Juhabach:まだ時間は―――――
I still have-------

Juhabach:・・・そうか
…I see
Juhabach:藍染惣右介
Aizen Sousuke
Juhabach:奴の小細工か
So this is one of his tricks
Juhabach:接触した数分間に私の感覚を僅かに狂わせたか・・・
He imperceptibly confused my sense of time during the few moments I was in contact with him…

Juhabach:ハッシュヴァルト
Haschwald
Juhabach:貴様気付いて黙っておったな
You were aware of this and remained silent?

Haschwald:お止めしても
I believed trying to stop you
Haschwald:無駄かと思いまして
Would be futile
I thank you for proving the MS scan wrong, since it only further proves my point that it is incredibly likely Aizen utilised Kanzen Saimin.
 

ssjelf

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If Ichigo managed to beat Aizen (with Urahara sealing) then I think Bach can. Yamamoto could have too if not for Wonderweiss. So in a 1v1 Juha would win.
 

Forbidden Tale

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Bach is stronger. Aizen is fodder without the Hokyoko he was not able to beat Yammato.
That don't make him fodder. Everyone is weak compared to Yamamoto :p Except for Yamamoto, Aizen is still one of strongest shinigamis.

Indeed, but it doesn't matter. The only thing in your translation that matters was what Yhwach said.
That don't make your claim more likely. :p I bolded the part when Yhwach said that his time senses were confused.
 

Goetia

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That don't make him fodder. Everyone is weak compared to Yamamoto :p Except for Yamamoto, Aizen is still one of strongest shinigamis.



That don't make your claim more likely. :p I bolded the part when Yhwach said that his time senses were confused.
Actually, it does. Where the other scans failed, your translation succeeded. How, you may ask? Well, your translation, which you said to be superior to that of the MangaPanda and ***********, shows that Yhwach said his senses were "imperceptibly confused" in the moments they met. Kanzen Saimin works by confusing the senses in such a fashion that the opponent was unaware their senses were being confused.
 

Forbidden Tale

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Kanzen Saimin don't confuse sense of time.
+ In order for Kanzen Saimin to work, Aizen need to release his zanpakuto, I don't know how could he release his zanpakuto, if it's marged with his arm.
 

bashkim

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That don't make him fodder. Everyone is weak compared to Yamamoto :p Except for Yamamoto, Aizen is still one of strongest shinigamis.



That don't make your claim more likely. :p I bolded the part when Yhwach said that his time senses were confused.

I do not deny the fact, that he is strong, but what do you expect from Aizen ? He needed the Hokyoku to be at the level of Yammato. Bach beat Yammato and killed him. He Also is about to kill the 0 division those guys are stronger than Yammato.

And the end his fodder.
 
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