JJ Madara vs Current Sasuke

[genii96]

Invisible man, if Naruto hit Juubito's body with a KCM rasengan instead of

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, what exactly do you think would happen?

Minato saying ninjutsu doesn't work on the juubi jink obviously is referring to damaging the jink, as that was the blatant context in which minato and everyone made that deduction.

you mean

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OT,madara clearly. Sasuke does not posses any senjutsu to get through the goudama.before people start using his black chidpri as an excuse,that is as a result ofhis yin powers,yin has been shown to black on the manga,heck yin kurama is black iirc. Also YANG is white in the manga.
Against naruto
he made a black chidori

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.

Naruto made a WHITE rasengan

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clearly this was basically a yin vs yang battle with their yin/yang powers awakening. Senjutsu had nothing to do with it,especially as sasuke or naruto never made those versions again.



madara can just choose to summon a bijudama firing tree,which he dosent need to charge,he can just fire them off quickly,the destructive capabilities of incharged juubidamas are more than enough to kill sasuke.

If madara is feeling pissed,he just summons the juubi amd has it step on sasuke.

 

[lanakui8]

you mean

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your link is broken

 

[genii96]

your link is broken

really?works on my phone just fine:|.
How about this?

Spoiler

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[/QUOTE]

 

[lanakui8]

really?works on my phone just fine:|.
How about this?

Spoiler

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[/QUOTE]
I see it now, but i don't understand what that proves. Obito wasn't damaged by an attack far more powerful than a Fuuton rasenshuriken, yet he got a huge hole in his back from an attack far weaker than a Fuuton rasenshuriken.

Again i ask, if KCM Naruto had hit Obito with a rasengan instead of SM Naruto, what would happen to Obito?

Why does Tobirama state ninjutsu fails but senjutsu works after seeing a senjutsu not hit the black orb, but hit Juubito's body?

 

[LuckyMan]

really?works on my phone just fine:|.
How about this?

Spoiler

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I already linked this scan in my earlier posts. Its clear he was damaged and it just healed from his major durability, regeneration along with TSB removing the flames. Some people can't cope with their favorites losing.

 

[Varrah]

By that logic he should have been able to match both of them, but they overwhelmed him with the utmost ease.

Which I find insensible giving the alleged power the Rinnegan grants its user, and the body composition Madara had at the time.​

​

 

[genii96]

I see it now, but i don't understand what that proves. Obito wasn't damaged by an attack far more powerful than a Fuuton rasenshuriken, yet he got a huge hole in his back from an attack far weaker than a Fuuton rasenshuriken.

Again i ask, if KCM Naruto had hit Obito with a rasengan instead of SM Naruto, what would happen to Obito?

Why does Tobirama state ninjutsu fails but senjutsu works after seeing a senjutsu not hit the black orb, but hit Juubito's body?[/QUOTE]

hmm?,the black flames ate up the wind,it was just a rasengan coated with enton,the rasengan slammed into his stomach,whereas the black flames engulfed him. From the scan it is clear as day that he was damaged as the red lines show.

Tobirama claimed ninjutsus didnt work because "his attack and defence are bost fast". Even if they hit him,the orbs will still nullify it as it did there,on the other hand,the orbs were right behind him when senjutsu hit,yet couldnt nullify the tasengan.
He also recovred from that rasengan as he did the ninjutsu attack. Let me ask you thin,if his body was immune to ninjutsu,tell me he bothered using the orbs to block all the ninjutsu attacks?,and why he bothered fully coating himself to protect himself from those bijudamas he fired,naturally,they shouldnt have even bothered him should they?

However in that scan it cant be clearer that ninjutsu damages their body.

If kcm naruto hit obito instead,his rasengan would have been erased by the blackballs near his back.


@invisible man
yea,he was clearly hurt by that attack.plus like i said in my previous post,chidori being black has nothing to do with senjutsu,as yin is black in the manga,naruto also made a white rasengan which is the colour of yang too.

 

[lanakui8]

hmm?,the black flames ate up the wind,it was just a rasengan coated with enton,the rasengan slammed into his stomach,whereas the black flames engulfed him. From the scan it is clear as day that he was damaged as the red lines show.

the red lines do not show damage, they show smoke which does not necessarily mean damage.

And no, hell no, enton rasenshuriken is not just a normal rasengan coated in enton. It's a Fuuton rasnshuriken amplified by being combined with enton.

Tobirama claimed ninjutsus didnt work because "his attack and defence are bost fast". Even if they hit him,the orbs will still nullify it as it did there,on the other hand,the orbs were right behind him when senjutsu hit,yet couldnt nullify the tasengan.
He also recovred from that rasengan as he did the ninjutsu attack.

so let me get this straight. You are literally asserting that had Tobirama warped KCM Naruto's rasengan into juubito's back, that juubito would have taken pretty much the same amount of damage?

Let me ask you thin,if his body was immune to ninjutsu,tell me he bothered using the orbs to block all the ninjutsu attacks?,and why he bothered fully coating himself to protect himself from those bijudamas he fired,naturally,they shouldnt have even bothered him should they?

Because 'immune' is hyperbole, his body isn't going to literally no sell any ninjutsu no matter how powerful, however his durability vs ninjutsu enormously outclasses his durability vs senjutsu as proven by him taking a enton rasenshuriken with no noticeable damage while getting a hole blasted in his back by a normal senpou rasengan.

If kcm naruto hit obito instead,his rasengan would have been erased by the blackballs near his back.

That makes absolutely no sense, the black balls have to touch the ninjutsu in order for them to erase it, the senpou rasengan didn't touch the black balls. Tobirama's clone could grab the black balls, edo minato could let them touch his back, neither of which happens if the black balls don't have to touch the ninjutsu first.

 

[Strict]

By that logic he should have been able to match both of them, but they overwhelmed him with the utmost ease.

They overwhelmed him together. Look at what the weaker Juubito did. What if Madara flies up, uses Six Red Yang Formation, creates the tree spamming Juubidamas and covers himself in the Onmyoton? His Susanoo won't get past the Onmyoton, as it negates any Ninjutsu with the exception of Kamui (I don't consider the FTG seal itself as a Ninjutsu, which Obito wasn't able to remove). Don't be irritated by Naruto's seemingly superior firepower as he used 6 Bijuudama Rasenshuriken. Juubi itself also has an invinite amount of Chakra. The huge Juubidama is multiple times stronger than

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single TBB of the skinny Juubi. When you pay attention to the mountains compared to this, this single explosion already exceeds Naruto's multiple Bijuudama Rasenshuriken (at least, or above all, in height by far, so the contained energy > Naruto's TBB). And now increase the scale by multiple times for

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TBB and multiply it multiple times, as Juubi Jins can spamm them. He is free to just fly up, cover himself with Onmyoton, send out the Limbo and shot multiple Gudou Damas; maybe followed by multiple huge Juubi Damas shot in all directions, maybe after jailing Sasuke in a barrier. Sorry, I can't see Sasuke winning because he, who fought together with Naruto, had some openings against a Madara, who, on the other hand didn't nearly show the full potential of Rikudo's Senjutsu.

Obito, who had the weaker Rikudo Senjutsu, used his multiple Onmyoton-Balls, jailed the alliance in a barrier, spammed TBB with a power to destroy a country and used the Double Helix sword which was hyped to create and destroy the world, until it was broken as Obito got emotional. Juubito has shown more fire power than Naruto. You say Naruto can use TBB faster. Naruto raises his hand to create those TBB, Juubito touches the ground to instantly let a tendril with a flower appear, creating massive TBB.

All Madara did was to use some random Ninjutsu and using his last Gudoudama as a stick. Only because Madara limited himself in this fight and didn't go all out while fighting BOTH Sasuke and Naruto, who uses Rikudo's Senjutsu as well, doesn't mean that's all he is capable of. Sasuke got a powerup by Hagoromo, Juubi is Hagoromo's power as well, which became the Rikudo's Senjutsu in Madara's body, together with a Rinnegan which is also Hagoromo's power.

To put it in a nutshell, Madara is Juubito with more firepower, more speed and a Limbo. A man wielding Rikudo's Senjutsu and having his eye. While Sasuke wields Rikudo's eye only. Madara is stronger.

 

[KidGamer65]

Lol, I see that the nonsense debate on whether the Jin's body can't be damaged by Ninjutsu has begun once again..another case of people taking what multiple characters said and ignoring it in favor of their own arguments..

Smh.

They overwhelmed him together. Look at what the weaker Juubito did. What if Madara flies up, uses Six Red Yang Formation, creates the tree spamming Juubidamas and covers himself in the Onmyoton? His Susanoo won't get past the Onmyoton, as it negates any Ninjutsu with the exception of Kamui (I don't consider the FTG seal itself as a Ninjutsu, which Obito wasn't able to remove). Don't be irritated by Naruto's seemingly superior firepower as he used 6 Bijuudama Rasenshuriken. Juubi itself also has an invinite amount of Chakra. The huge Juubidama is multiple times stronger than

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single TBB of the skinny Juubi. When you pay attention to the mountains compared to this, this single explosion already exceeds Naruto's multiple Bijuudama Rasenshuriken (at least, or above all, in height by far, so the contained energy > Naruto's TBB). And now increase the scale by multiple times for

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TBB and multiply it multiple times, as Juubi Jins can spamm them. He is free to just fly up, cover himself with Onmyoton, send out the Limbo and shot multiple Gudou Damas; maybe followed by multiple huge Juubi Damas shot in all directions, maybe after jailing Sasuke in a barrier. Sorry, I can't see Sasuke winning because he, who fought together with Naruto, had some openings against a Madara, who, on the other hand didn't nearly show the full potential of Rikudo's Senjutsu.

You guys keep repeating that they did it together, but either one of them would have been able to do anything the team did at full power as the they fought no where near their full potentials. No where near it. No Perfect Susanoo, and Naruto only used Jiton Rasengan, and a staff made from the Gudo Dama.

Sasuke can get past the Onmyoton. Ninjutsu isn't supposed to damage the Jin's body either, as stated by multiple characters, but he was able to cut Madara in half with Chidori Katana. Meaning Onmyoton isn't going to negate his Susanoo, it'd carve the Gudo Dama up with relative ease considering a weaker PS got through Obito's shield.

And the bold...no, not happening.

-Limbo isn't doing anything to Susanoo. Its already been established by Sasuke that the Rikudo's Chakra can hurt it, he possess that.

-Covering himself with the Gudo Dama is useless as explained above. Attacking with them is useless as well cause Susanoo protects Sasuke. And he'd have to make the tree to make the Bijuu Dama first, and he can't do that if he's in the air, inside an orb. And it needs to charge. That's time he'll never get against Sasuke due to his teleportation and his high speed flying Susanoo.

Full potential? The new things Madara showed were countered and the old things Obito showed can be countered by either Sasuke or Naruto alone. He's not beating either one at full power without his eyes, not when he can't beat the both of them using techniques far below their full power.

Obito, who had the weaker Rikudo Senjutsu, used his multiple Onmyoton-Balls, jailed the alliance in a barrier, spammed TBB with a power to destroy a country and used the Double Helix sword which was hyped to create the world, until it was broken as Obito got emotional. Juubito has shown more fire power than Naruto. You say Naruto can use TBB faster. Naruto raises his hand to create those TBB, Juubito touches the ground to instantly let a tendril with a flower appear, creating massive TBB.

The sword got broken because it was weaker. What does Obito becoming emotional have to do with it? His feelings weren't powering the sword. he was just plain weaker.

All Madara did was to use some random Ninjutsu and using his last Gudoudama as a stick. Only because Madara limited himself in this fight and didn't go all out while fighting BOTH Sasuke and Naruto, who uses Rikudo's Senjutsu as well, doesn't mean that's all he is capable of. Sasuke got a powerup by Hagoromo, Juubi is Hagoromo's power as well, which became the Rikudo's Senjutsu in Madara's body, together with a Rinnegan which is also Hagoromo's power.

The only reason he'd have to not use those techniques is because he was being pressured so hard he couldn't perform them. Mainly speaking about the Bijuu Dama here. There is no other reason for him to limit himself in a fight where he could get sealed for good.

To put it in a nutshell, Madara is Juubito with more firepower, more speed and a Limbo. A man wielding Rikudo's Senjutsu and having his eye. While Sasuke wields Rikudo's eye only. Madara is stronger.

Yeah...no. All he has is more firepower, firepower that can be evaded or prevented. Sasuke beats him here. Sasuke only having the Rinnegan isn't anywhere close to a logical reason to infer Madara is better.

Which I find insensible giving the alleged power the Rinnegan grants its user, and the body composition Madara had at the time.​

​

He did only have one Rinnegan, and you need both to use their full powers.

 

[Strict]

So Sasuke's eye >> Madara's Rikudo Senjutsu + eye? Seems like you get a fuck about portrayal.

 

[KidGamer65]

So Sasuke's eye >> Madara's Rikudo Senjutsu + eye? Seems like you get a fuck about portrayal.

Sasuke got the Rinnegan and all of Hagoromo's Yin Chakra. All his abilities have been dramatically boosted. Susanoo is the perfect example. There is no portrayal that puts Madara above Sasuke because he has one eye and Rikudo Senjutsu. The sheer fact he lacks his other eye, thus lacks the full power of his own Rinnegan completely destroys any kind of comparison you are making here.

I repeat, there is no portrayal argument that puts Sasuke below Single Eyed Juubi Jin Madara. Like I said before, if your portrayal argument wasn't flawed beyond belief, Madara would have equaled Naruto and Sasuke at the very least instead of being stomped by them, realizing that he needs his other eye to compete, when they didn't even go all out. By your portrayal argument, One Eyed Madara should equal a Full Power Rinnegan Sasuke and a Full Power Rikudo Senjutsu Naruto...though the manga has clearly shown that is false.


The main reason your portrayal argument is flawed is because Sasuke's best technique isn't his best technique because of his Rinnegan, its because of the chakra Hagoromo have him.

 

[Strict]

Let's analyze this stomp fight. Madara attacked with lightning, both Naruto and Sasuke countered. Naruto directly attacks Madara, his Limbo stops Naruto and smacks him away. Madara attacks Sasuke and gets stabbed by his sword, which made no damage at all. Then they attacked him with a Jiton Rasengan and a Chidori, while Madara replaced himself with a Limbo. Then he flew to Kakashi to get his eye, in order to get his Rinnegan back and obtain his full power, when Sasuke used Madara's abstraction in order to teleport before him and cut him in half.

Wow, what stomp! This short fight of the team of Sasuke and Naruto against a Madara who used a fraction of the Juubi's power means that Sasuke stomps him. Yeah, as if the Juubi's power wouldn't boost his overall abilities like Susanoo, despite the Sennin stated that becoming Juubi's Jinchuriki equals getting his power.

This stomp was just incredible!

 

[KidGamer65]

Let's analyze this stomp fight. Madara attacked with lightning, both Naruto and Sasuke countered. Naruto directly attacks Madara, his Limbo stops Naruto and smacks him away. Madara attacks Sasuke and gets stabbed by his sword, which made no damage at all. Then they attacked him with a Jiton Rasengan and a Chidori, while Madara replaced himself with a Limbo. Then he flew to Kakashi to get his eye, in order to get his Rinnegan back and obtain his full power, when Sasuke used Madara's abstraction in order to teleport before him and cut him in half.

You can call the match whatever you like, its completely irrelevant to the point, which makes me believe you have nothing relevant to add so I'll repeat the point. By your ridiculous portrayal argument, One eyed Madara should equal them, but he got forced to run away by the duo fighting no where near their full power.

Do you know why he ran away? Oh wait, I know...

Its because he was too weak to take them on. Case and point. After they figured out his Limbo, Naruto sealed it. Madara ran away, Sasuke caught up (on foot) and bisected him. Madara would have been destroyed if the fight had continued considering a mere fraction of their power caused him to run with his tail between his legs for his other eye back.

There wasn't one point in that fight where he had the advantage.

Wow, what stomp! This short fight of the team of Sasuke and Naruto against a Madara who used a fraction of the Juubi's power means that Sasuke stomps him. Yeah, as if the Juubi's power wouldn't boost his overall abilities like Susanoo, despite the Sennin stated that becoming Juubi's Jinchuriki equals getting his power.

One Eyed Madara can't use Perfect Susanoo due to lacking his other eye. You need both Sharingan to use their full powers, and the full power of EMS is Perfect Susanoo, and any level below that is completely irrelevant. So Madara's Susanoo in his One eyed state is irrelevant here, so don't bother mentioning it again.

Sasuke has already shown counters to everything Madara did in their fight and everything you say Madara could have done. He's superior, its just that simple. Feats agree, and there is no hype or portrayal that disagrees.

 

[genii96]

the red lines do not show damage, they show smoke which does not necessarily mean damage.

And no, hell no, enton rasenshuriken is not just a normal rasengan coated in enton. It's a Fuuton rasnshuriken amplified by being combined with enton.


so let me get this straight. You are literally asserting that had Tobirama warped KCM Naruto's rasengan into juubito's back, that juubito would have taken pretty much the same amount of damage?


Because 'immune' is hyperbole, his body isn't going to literally no sell any ninjutsu no matter how powerful, however his durability vs ninjutsu enormously outclasses his durability vs senjutsu as proven by him taking a enton rasenshuriken with no noticeable damage while getting a hole blasted in his back by a normal senpou rasengan.


That makes absolutely no sense, the black balls have to touch the ninjutsu in order for them to erase it, the senpou rasengan didn't touch the black balls. Tobirama's clone could grab the black balls, edo minato could let them touch his back, neither of which happens if the black balls don't have to touch the ninjutsu first.

the same smoke that is shown when the senjutsu rasengan hit him?

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dude,the enton engulfs the rasenshuriken to make a bigger enton,it does not even explode. When wind and fire combine together it makes a bigger flame. The wind fueled the enton.

So basically you are saying he has a higher resistance to ninjutsu when compared to senjutsu then?,which makes sense. Now dont you think ninjutsu fueled by hagoromo's chakra would severly damage a juubi jin if it wasnt blocked? Also obito was blown in half by his goudama that he fired too.
Pretty sure an attack with hagoromo's chakra would be real messy for a juubi jin

 

[Strict]

Forgot that Madara may can't use the PS with one eye. And as Sasuke can also draw on Senchakra (which has a similar appearance to the cursed seal), this is another matter. :b

 

[lanakui8]

the same smoke that is shown when the senjutsu rasengan hit him?

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except we don't see any wound being healed from, we just see smoke emitted from that part of his body, and then we see Tobirama explicitly state that even if we remove the orbs, ninjutsu doesn't work. Therefore why would he state senjutsu works, yet ninjutsu doesn't when Juubito gets damaged by both?

dude,the enton engulfs the rasenshuriken to make a bigger enton,it does not even explode. When wind and fire combine together it makes a bigger flame. The wind fueled the enton.

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, just like when naruto hit kakuzu with his first FRS, it

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and then turned into that when it traveled and blew up.

So basically you are saying he has a higher resistance to ninjutsu when compared to senjutsu then?,which makes sense. Now dont you think ninjutsu fueled by hagoromo's chakra would severly damage a juubi jin if it wasnt blocked? Also obito was blown in half by his goudama that he fired too.

Mindless juubito who did not have the ninjutsu canceling ability was the one who was blown in half by his gudoudama. Hagoromo's chakra is rikudou senjutsu, which is why it slices the juubi jin in half. And it would not make sense if Sasuke's chidori spear slices through madara, yet Naruto's senpou lava rasenshuriken which is a far more powerful technique and uses senjutsu wasn't able to cleave madara all the way in half.

Pretty sure an attack with hagoromo's chakra would be real messy for a juubi jin

sure, but that's because hagoromo's chakra is rikudou senjutsu.

 

[ARGUS]

Sasuke beats Juudara with only one rinnegan,
loses to madara with 2 rinnegan

 

[XY iNVeRSe]

Madara, Sasuke can't teleport forever. Je hasn't even caused any permanent damage to madara in any way.

Madara also has the six paths tools #MANGAFACT

 

[genii96]

except we don't see any wound being healed from, we just see smoke emitted from that part of his body, and then we see Tobirama explicitly state that even if we remove the orbs, ninjutsu doesn't work. Therefore why would he state senjutsu works, yet ninjutsu doesn't when Juubito gets damaged by both?

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, just like when naruto hit kakuzu with his first FRS, it

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and then turned into that when it traveled and blew up.


Mindless juubito who did not have the ninjutsu canceling ability was the one who was blown in half by his gudoudama. Hagoromo's chakra is rikudou senjutsu, which is why it slices the juubi jin in half. And it would not make sense if Sasuke's chidori spear slices through madara, yet Naruto's senpou lava rasenshuriken which is a far more powerful technique and uses senjutsu wasn't able to cleave madara all the way in half.


sure, but that's because hagoromo's chakra is rikudou senjutsu.

thats because the wound was already healed?,you do realize how fast they can heal right?. Like i showed you,the smoke emmited means he was healing from something. Tobirama said it didnt work because his defence was too fast. Let me ask you a question,if his body could nullify ninjutsu,tell me why he couldnt nullify it until his balls saved him?,and why he was on the floor until then?.

Enton is fire,it spreads,a single amaterasu from itachi spread through a forest,sasuke's enton magatamas engulfed the zetsus. Nagato's summons were quickly engulfed etc. If it eploded like a fuuton,we would have seen the massive dome shaped explosio there was no fuuton left,it was eaten by the enton.

The ninjutsu cancelling abilitiy isnt on their bodies,it is through the goudama,otherwise he would have nullified the flames all around him before his balls came. Also he would not had to go on the defensive and would just run through their attacks instead of just having to block them with the black balls.

Hagoromo's chakra is not the same as senjutsu. Indra inherited his eyes and chakra,ashura inherited his body and senjutsu. Madara clearly differentiated naruto and sasuke in that aspect. If sasuke had any form of senjutsu in him,madara would have noticed it