[VS] Itachi-Sasori Vs. Kisame-Deidara

[Brooks]

Itachi and Sasori wins with mid-diff.​

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Dont want to jump into yall arguments, but, what is the relevance of Chiyo reacting to IS?

 

[Forbidden Technique]

Oh boy. I'll reply to this once more when I get the chance.

Dont want to jump into yall arguments, but, what is the relevance of Chiyo reacting to IS?

His claim is that the IS would travel 400 meters at speeds exceeding the speed of sound, that would practically end the fight before it even begins. Thus, I brought up Chiyo's feat in reacting to it within a relatively close range, which makes the entire notion completely absurd - if it doesn't already sound so, regardless of the fact.

 

[Waltz]

@Brother Numpsay: Its..nothing unusual. Two of the more common fallacies: A confirmation bias taggin' along Argumentum ad consequentiam...

"Despite the factual evidences of it doing so: Because Chiyo who was given a small enough window----defended against Satetsu at a close range; it therefore cannot travel beyond the speed of sound (340.29m/s) across a 400m (Long Range) distance through a rocky terrain (something Satetsu easily pierces) and engage a target because "I" think it's an absurd notion."

The extension on Temari was simply Ignoratio Elenchi.

​

 

[Forbidden Technique]

Fabricating? doubt it. You're only reemphasizing my point. "The last second" would have been before Satetsu was accelerated. You cannot say she 'did nothing' because her rigged arm was beneath her cloak. Sasori was not keeping a visual to see if Chiyo could react in time (she had enough time to do so to begin with as I highlighted in my previous post) as

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but his interest was to see what her course of action would be in such a scenario as noted at the beginning of the Chapter:

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His surprise then was that Chiyo had rigged her own arm to install a defense as noted in the scan directly following:

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Sasori was never maintaining Satetsu's full speed throughout this battle. Even his attack following the one currently discussed he constructed weapons [

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] yet allowed Chiyo and Sakura [

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-

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-

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] pages of conversation before actually proceeding to attack [

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] however Satetsu did indeed breech the sound barrier at a specific point to which Chiyo had prior a time to form a defense.
​

​

Either you missed the point, or you're purposely beating around the bush. The course of action required for Chiyos defense in this scenario is to extend her arm in front of her, and then activate the chakra shield. She can not hide it under her sleeve, so I don't even know why you brought that up. The bottom line is, if Chiyo took her course of action prior to the IS speed being accelerated, then Sasori would of obviously seen it, as his vision was very fixated on her. However, Sasori had no idea what the outcome was until after all of the debris cleared.

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There is no possible way for you to fabricate or miscontrue what happened here. Chiyo reacted to the IS after it was accelerated, as Sasori had to wait and see what happened - which was a surprise to him. It's speed really should not be too hard to handle in kage-tier fights.

Her Genjutsu's effect doesn't take place instantaneously; when she initially began utilizing the flute, Shikamaru despite hearing it's sound was still able to maneuver his body to the extent that he was able to throw a Kunai before the Jutsu took full effect [

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->

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] so what you term 'Temari reacted to Sound-speed' was actually Temari deflecting the sound before the Genjtusu took full effect; Shikamaru who also heard it testifies to this:

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I'll omit the bold then.​

Fair enough.

@ Yellow: Perhaps I didn't make myself clear: If Sasori immobilized Joints of Chiyo's puppets which he had no visual of as they were concealed then he can one shot an enemy out in the open. who's temporarily behind a few rocks that Satetsu will gracefully destroy.​

Immobilizng joints doesn't require a clear direct visual to begin with. He had no idea that Chiyo rigged her arm, yet still was able to immobilize her joints. The difference here is, Sasori had a clear visual of Chiyo; while the same most likely can't be said about this scenario, as it's a

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with a 400 meter distance between Sasori and his opposition. These aren't just mere rocks.

@ Blue: There's no fallacy being applied here as

->1) the databook has within it's contents the ranges of Jutsu:

-> 2) We've seen Jutsu's which take effect over 400 meters

-> 3) Since you haven't disproved Satetsu's speed and as it is capable of breaching the sound barrier, that is to travel faster than the speed of sound; then my argument remains.
​

​

Doesn't have to stretch it: [

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]​

There absolutely is though. Just because the attack exceeds a 10+ meter attacking distance, doesn't mean it's a concrete fact that it can reach 400 meters, nevermind maintaining it's travelling speed at a consistent proficient rate. I was talking about the magnetic forces by the way, not the IS' shape. A magnets magnetic field gets progressively weaker as the range increases.

@Brother Numpsay: Its..nothing unusual. Two of the more common fallacies: A confirmation bias taggin' along Argumentum ad consequentiam...

"Despite the factual evidences of it doing so: Because Chiyo who was given a small enough window----defended against Satetsu at a close range; it therefore cannot travel beyond the speed of sound (340.29m/s) across a 400m (Long Range) distance through a rocky terrain (something Satetsu easily pierces) and engage a target because "I" think it's an absurd notion."

The extension on Temari was simply Ignoratio Elenchi.

​

Lmao, could you possibly try a little harder though..?​

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​

 

[Worm]

I was talking about the magnetic forces by the way, not the IS' shape. A magnets magnetic field gets progressively weaker as the range increases.

I don't see how this is relevant though? You're talking about a single magnet that has the same magnetic property all the time. The stronger the magnet, the bigger the field of effect is. Sasori has literally no problems with pumping out more magnetic forces and strenghtening his 'magnet'. He's specifically done that a couple of times already and not even once did a range affect him. There's a specific reason his attacks can be any range he wishes them to be.

 

[Forbidden Technique]

I don't see how this is relevant though? You're talking about a single magnet that has the same magnetic property all the time. The stronger the magnet, the bigger the field of effect is. Sasori has literally no problems with pumping out more magnetic forces and strenghtening his 'magnet'. He's specifically done that a couple of times already and not even once did a range affect him. There's a specific reason his attacks can be any range he wishes them to be.

Show me a feat where Sasori utilized it's range anywhere remotely close to 100 meters, let alone 400. So because he was shown to strengthen it's magnetic force within a reasonable range equates to the notion that it's magnetic field has no boundaries...? A clear fallacy. It's one thing being capable of reaching that range, then maintaining that same amount of speed at all ranges is another.

 

[Worm]

Show me a feat where Sasori utilized it's range anywhere remotely close to 100 meters, let alone 400. So because he was shown to strengthen it's magnetic force within a reasonable range equates to the notion that it's magnetic field has no boundaries...? A clear fallacy. It's one thing being capable of reaching that range, then maintaining that same amount of speed at all ranges is another.

He seemed to have absolutely no trouble maintaining a range and the constant speed of his projectiles that could easily tear open the whole cave they were fighting in. [

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] He did so with what? The Third Kazekage's plus maybe his own chakra reserves? How many more chakra reserves does he have aside from himself and the Third Kazekage? Exactly 297. That's a pretty huge amount given how his chakra reserves dwarf easily someone like Kakuzu's, who had only 5 chakra reserves including himself. Has no boundaries, i.e. is limitless? No. It's as limited as his Chakra reserves. 400m does not even begin to come close to what limitless means.

 

[Zexion~]

He seemed to have absolutely no trouble maintaining a range and the constant speed of his projectiles that could easily tear open the whole cave they were fighting in. [

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] He did so with what? The Third Kazekage's plus maybe his own chakra reserves? How many more chakra reserves does he have aside from himself and the Third Kazekage? Exactly 297. That's a pretty huge amount given how his chakra reserves dwarf easily someone like Kakuzu's, who had only 5 chakra reserves including himself. Has no boundaries, i.e. is limitless? No. It's as limited as his Chakra reserves. 400m does not even begin to come close to what limitless means.

What? He has 300 human puppets but has he shown the feat of threading chakra in-between one another? No so he can't simply gain chakra like that. No clue where you got that from.

Not to mention how could they have an actual chakra system when they don't have any of the needed organs/organic material.

Chiyo stated they keep the chakra they had when alive.

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It doesn't make sense that Sasori would have to "specially build them" to maintain the chakra if they kept a chakra system constantly generating new chakra.

They either have a finate amount or just reuse the same chakra, or Sasori pumps his own somehow.

But they most certainly don't have chakra systems. Like Kakuzu has.

 

[Worm]

What? He has 300 human puppets but has he shown the feat of threading chakra in-between one another? No so he can't simply gain chakra like that. No clue where you got that from.

Not to mention how could they have an actual chakra system when they don't have any of the needed organs/organic material.

Chiyo stated they keep the chakra they had when alive.

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It doesn't make sense that Sasori would have to "specially build them" to maintain the chakra if they kept a chakra system constantly generating new chakra.

They either have a finate amount or just reuse the same chakra, or Sasori pumps his own somehow.

But they most certainly don't have chakra systems. Like Kakuzu has.

Except he is controlling their chakra and transfers some of his into them when needed. He can do the same by transfering their chakra into him and then using that chakra for another puppet.

Here we go. No, they don't have organs, but they have some way of producing chakra anyways. A finate amount would defeat the whole purpose of a Human Puppet, which is the ability to use Jutsu from the owner's life. Since he could easily use up the whole chakra reserve in a battle or two. Sasori doesn't specifically build them to contain chakra from their previous life, that much isn't possible. He creates them from their old bodies by turning them into puppets. The chakra is already there. He doesn't replenish it by himself somehow maically.

 

[Forbidden Technique]

He seemed to have absolutely no trouble maintaining a range and the constant speed of his projectiles that could easily tear open the whole cave they were fighting in. [

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] He did so with what? The Third Kazekage's plus maybe his own chakra reserves? How many more chakra reserves does he have aside from himself and the Third Kazekage? Exactly 297. That's a pretty huge amount given how his chakra reserves dwarf easily someone like Kakuzu's, who had only 5 chakra reserves including himself. Has no boundaries, i.e. is limitless? No. It's as limited as his Chakra reserves. 400m does not even begin to come close to what limitless means.

That cave was progressively taking a beating from the IS blocks. IS World didn't cover the entire range of the cave, because it didn't reach both Sasori and Chiyo. Again, Sasori doesn't even have the feat of extending his magnetic range that exceeds 100 meters, let alone 4x that. Even if we were to assume he has that range, it's even more of a stretch to claim that it would travel at a constant speed, given the fact it's magnetic repulsion will get progressively weaker. So now Sasori can somehow utilize the chakra of all his human puppets at once, and place it into the 3rds magnetism? Explain to me how that even begin to make sense.

 

[Worm]

@Versta. I forgot to say here, but adding more chakra into Deidara's explosives can very much enhance them.

That cave was progressively taking a beating from the IS blocks. IS World didn't cover the entire range of the cave, because it didn't reach both Sasori and Chiyo. Again, Sasori doesn't even have the feat of extending his magnetic range that exceeds 100 meters, let alone 4x that. Even if we were to assume he has that range, it's even more of a stretch to claim that it would travel at a constant speed, given the fact it's magnetic repulsion will get progressively weaker. So now Sasori can somehow utilize the chakra of all his human puppets at once, and place it into the 3rds magnetism? Explain to me how that even begin to make sense.

In width, sure. It didn't reach Sakura or himself, but it sure as hell did stretch our further in lenght and tore open even more new ground that wasn't already destroyed by the blocks before-hand. And yes, he did destroy them progressively, but that's irrelevant. The point is that Sasori was attacking them all over the place where ever they ran which is testimony to my statement that his range was inside the whole cave basically. Already said above. Sasori is basically connected to his puppets with chakra threads since he can trigger the usage of their chakra seeing as how he converts Kazekage's chakra into magnetism and is even capable of pumping his own chakra into the puppet so why specifically shouldn't he be capable of doing the vice versa?

Whether Sasori can hold a constant speed in a 400m radius at once is irrelevant. Simply firing his projectiles with the start speed will have them travel at that speed until they reach his targets. Sure, he probably won't be able to just change their direction immediately, but he can pump out new waves if specifically needed or just get closer to his projectiles.

 

[Rιver]

If you're talking about C3... no. Others maybe.

 

[Worm]

If you're talking about C3... no. Others maybe.

You are working under the assumption that C3 is the highest absolute level of the Explosive Chakra. It is not. He specifically states MY highest Chakra level. To begin with, C0 is a much higher Explosive Chakra output than C3 simply because he connected it to his heart which gives him the opportunity to pump literally all of his chakra into that one jutsu.

C3 is the highest level of chakra he could release by himself, without connecting it to his heart. If Kisame gives him a shitload of more Chakra, he's gonna make a new, more destructive bomb.

 

[Waltz]

Either you missed the point, or you're purposely beating around the bush. The course of action required for Chiyos defense in this scenario is to extend her arm in front of her, and then activate the chakra shield. She can not hide it under her sleeve, so I don't even know why you brought that up. The bottom line is, if Chiyo took her course of action prior to the IS speed being accelerated, then Sasori would of obviously seen it, as his vision was very fixated on her. However, Sasori had no idea what the outcome was until after all of the debris cleared.

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There is no possible way for you to fabricate or miscontrue what happened here. Chiyo reacted to the IS after it was accelerated, as Sasori had to wait and see what happened - which was a surprise to him. It's speed really should not be too hard to handle in kage-tier fights.

Hmm...

Alright; I cannot argue with the expressions here and the Databook references nothing of Kikou Junbuu being a notably fast defense so as you indicated it must have been her reflexes yet Satetsu breaks the Sound barrier. Real life physics fails here. ​

Immobilizng joints doesn't require a clear direct visual to begin with. He had no idea that Chiyo rigged her arm, yet still was able to immobilize her joints. The difference here is, Sasori had a clear visual of Chiyo; while the same most likely can't be said about this scenario, as it's a

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with a 400 meter distance between Sasori and his opposition. These aren't just mere rocks.

Only your assumption that because Sasori does't have visual of the opponent that Satetsu cannot be used across a long range distance when there is no reference of such limitations in the Manga or Databook also Satetsu should pierce through those mountains:

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However; it's pointless to argue this as I'll agree that Kisame could potentially react as did Chiyo at a much closer distance. ​

 

[Rιver]

You are working under the assumption that C3 is the highest absolute level of the Explosive Chakra. It is not. He specifically states MY highest Chakra level. To begin with, C0 is a much higher Explosive Chakra output than C3 simply because he connected it to his heart which gives him the opportunity to pump literally all of his chakra into that one jutsu.

C3 is the highest level of chakra he could release by himself, without connecting it to his heart. If Kisame gives him a shitload of more Chakra, he's gonna make a new, more destructive bomb.

1. Pretty sure Deidara stated already that C3 was the cap.

2. Proof of C0 requiring all chakra?

3. C0 being bigger explosion =/= C3 being able to outclass it with more chakra. If you can prove that the C variants have all the same type chakra, and C3 doesn't have a cap as stated then you are right. All we have is another assumption.

 

[Worm]

1. Pretty sure Deidara stated already that C3 was the cap.

Only when it comes to the amount of chakra he could produce by himself.

2. Proof of C0 requiring all chakra?

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3. C0 being bigger explosion =/= C3 being able to outclass it with more chakra. If you can prove that the C variants have all the same type chakra, and C3 doesn't have a cap as stated then you are right. All we have is another assumption.

I don't even know where you got the whole ''different types of explosive chakra!'' thing. His C levels are literally him increasing his chakra levels and the amount of chakra he kneads into his bomb.

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As stated

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, kneading more chakra into his bombs allows him to create a more powerful, large scale bomb. C0 > C3 because he could knead more chakra into C0 from his own heart. Kneading more Chakra into C3 -> An enhanced, more powerful C3 destruction-wise. Do I really need to show you countless times when Deidara was capable of creating C1 bombs that are more powerful than some of his other C1 bombs?

 

[Rιver]

Only when it comes to the amount of chakra he could produce by himself.

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I don't even know where you got the whole ''different types of explosive chakra!'' thing. His C levels are literally him increasing his chakra levels and the amount of chakra he kneads into his bomb.

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As stated

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, kneading more chakra into his bombs allows him to create a more powerful, large scale bomb. C0 > C3 because he could knead more chakra into C0 from his own heart. Kneading more Chakra into C3 -> An enhanced, more powerful C3 destruction-wise. Do I really need to show you countless times when Deidara was capable of creating C1 bombs that are more powerful than some of his other C1 bombs?

I am convinced.

 

[Forbidden Technique]

@Versta. I forgot to say here, but adding more chakra into Deidara's explosives can very much enhance them.



In width, sure. It didn't reach Sakura or himself, but it sure as hell did stretch our further in lenght and tore open even more new ground that wasn't already destroyed by the blocks before-hand. And yes, he did destroy them progressively, but that's irrelevant. The point is that Sasori was attacking them all over the place where ever they ran which is testimony to my statement that his range was inside the whole cave basically. Already said above. Sasori is basically connected to his puppets with chakra threads since he can trigger the usage of their chakra seeing as how he converts Kazekage's chakra into magnetism and is even capable of pumping his own chakra into the puppet so why specifically shouldn't he be capable of doing the vice versa?

Whether Sasori can hold a constant speed in a 400m radius at once is irrelevant. Simply firing his projectiles with the start speed will have them travel at that speed until they reach his targets. Sure, he probably won't be able to just change their direction immediately, but he can pump out new waves if specifically needed or just get closer to his projectiles.

There was never a point where Sasori used it from one end of the cave to the other though. It was more-so in the middle, and thus more accurate to say it's radius was around the length of the cave. I don't think that's even 1/4th of 400 meters.

When was it shown that Sasori pumped his own chakra into the 3rd Kazekage..? The manga states that the 3rd Kazekage had special chakra that can be converted into magnetism. Sasori's chakra doesn't have those properties... Ones chakra doesn't change it's properties just because it was used by someone else. Kisame used Bee's chakra to form the WD, and Cee was able to sense that it was the Hachibi's [

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]. So foreign chakra shouldn't be capable of being turned into magnetism because it's an unique trait exclusive to the 3rds chakra (assuming Sasori can even transfer to begin with). Furthermore, this is almost like saying because DSM Kabuto or Orochimaru can trigger the usage of their Edo's chakra, that they can transfer to themselves as well. Obviously shouldn't be possible.

The projectile's repulsion will decrease gradually, and thus travel more on momentum. Sasori shouldn't be capable of getting closer to his projectiles if they're travelling at top speed.

Only when it comes to the amount of chakra he could produce by himself.

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I don't even know where you got the whole ''different types of explosive chakra!'' thing. His C levels are literally him increasing his chakra levels and the amount of chakra he kneads into his bomb.

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As stated

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, kneading more chakra into his bombs allows him to create a more powerful, large scale bomb. C0 > C3 because he could knead more chakra into C0 from his own heart. Kneading more Chakra into C3 -> An enhanced, more powerful C3 destruction-wise. Do I really need to show you countless times when Deidara was capable of creating C1 bombs that are more powerful than some of his other C1 bombs?

Smh, so I was right. Should of done my research. Deidara is a dope ass character. I really should look more into his capabilities. Good stuff.

 

[Worm]

People are expecting a Deidara analysis thread from me, but I'm so lazy, man. Idk if I should actually work on it.

As for the Sasori part, agreed with the first bit, but as for the second. While using ISWO, Sasori notes how he's apparently gonna have to use a bit of chakra on ISWO, implying he was using his own chakra reserves for it as well. You could take that sentence in different ways, but going by the context, it seems like Sasori had to use his own chakra reserves.

Spoiler

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There might be something more about in the databook, but don't have the pages right now.