[Discussion] How strong the shogun of wano??

[Rikudou Tobi]

It's plot induced stupidity that the y became so powerful during Marineford.

No dummy, it's plot induced stupidity that he lost to Luffy. Marineford Crocodile is Crocodile's actual strength because Crocodile was a notorious pirate in the New world who lost to Prime Whitebeard at the age of 31. Even Doflamingo wanted to team up with Crocodile during the Marineford, and during his flashback fight with Luffy he even recognized Crocodile's strength of being stronger than

You must be registered for see links

who alabasta luffy lost to.
Alabasta Crocodile wouldn't even be strong enough to enter Fisherman island let alone the New world yet Crocodile spent years in the New world before entering Alabasta. Even Oda admitted that he introduced Crocodile too early in the series.
If you really think that Crocodile in the marineford is PIS then you're an absolute retard and trolling would just be an understatement.

 

[HowDidIGetPrem]

No dummy, it's plot induced stupidity that he lost to Luffy. Marineford Crocodile is Crocodile's actual strength because Crocodile was a notorious pirate in the New world who lost to Prime Whitebeard at the age of 31. Even Doflamingo wanted to team up with Crocodile during the Marineford, and during his flashback fight with Luffy he even recognized Crocodile's strength of being stronger than

You must be registered for see links

who alabasta luffy lost to.
Alabasta Crocodile wouldn't even be strong enough to enter Fisherman island let alone the New world yet Crocodile spent years in the New world before entering Alabasta. Even Oda admitted that he introduced Crocodile too early in the series.
If you really think that Crocodile in the marineford is PIS then you're an absolute retard and trolling would just be an understatement.

I agree with all you're saying except the fact that Marineford isn't plot induced stupidity. I don't subscribe to it, but people consider things asspulls when they happen out of nowhere or when new characters just appear. Neither Moriah nor Crocodile were established to be a third as strong as they were shown during Marineford, and it's not like they could recover their former strength within the few weeks or days they had until their reappearance at Marineford.

 

[Rikudou Tobi]

I agree with all you're saying except the fact that Marineford isn't plot induced stupidity. I don't subscribe to it, but people consider things asspulls when they happen out of nowhere or when new characters just appear. Neither Moriah nor Crocodile were established to be a third as strong as they were shown during Marineford, and it's not like they could recover their former strength within the few weeks or days they had until their reappearance at Marineford.

They were stated to be as strong right before they were introduced, Kuma literally stated that Luffy is the anomaly that no one expected, that is what's called PIS:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

Because if we go by your logic, that means that

You must be registered for see links

would get destroyed by pre timeskip Luffy. Is that what you're implying now?

The point is that both of these guys have been to the New World and both guys defeated opponents more powerful than Luffy, especially Crocodile and his legit feats we see in the Impel down/Marineford war. So both of them digressing wouldn't make any sense. Go to chapter 69 page 5-6 they'll tell you the level of what a Warlord of the Sea is suppose to be like, and Jimbei was first mentioned to be as such in that chapter.
What you're doing is called "low-balling," you're taking the low end of someone's feats and dubbing them base on the 1 low end showing.
Regardless of what people believe for one bias reason or another, if the author said that Crocodile was introduced way too early then what he says is law. The problem with people in this forum is that they regard their opinions above what the author states himself and because of that they create fanfic laws about what should be what despite the author completely opposing it.
If you haven't notice either, Luffy didn't defeat Crocodile or Moria with just his own fist. Crocodile wa knocked out by the bedrocks Luffy tunneled through that uprooted the whole city and Moria was knocked out by a castle dropping on his face. Luffy won those impossible battles by taking advantage over the Warlord's strengths and weaknesses during their battle.

 

[HowDidIGetPrem]

They were stated to be as strong right before they were introduced, Kuma literally stated that Luffy is the anomaly that no one expected, that is what's called PIS:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

Because if we go by your logic, that means that

You must be registered for see links

would get destroyed by pre timeskip Luffy. Is that what you're implying now?

The point is that both of these guys have been to the New World and both guys defeated opponents more powerful than Luffy, especially Crocodile and his legit feats we see in the Impel down/Marineford war. So both of them digressing wouldn't make any sense. Go to chapter 69 page 5-6 they'll tell you the level of what a Warlord of the Sea is suppose to be like, and Jimbei was first mentioned to be as such in that chapter.
What you're doing is called "low-balling," you're taking the low end of someone's feats and dubbing them base on the 1 low end showing.
Regardless of what people believe for one bias reason or another, if the author said that Crocodile was introduced way too early then what he says is law. The problem with people in this forum is that they regard their opinions above what the author states himself and because of that they create fanfic laws about what should be what despite the author completely opposing it.
If you haven't notice either, Luffy didn't defeat Crocodile or Moria with just his own fist. Crocodile wa knocked out by the bedrocks Luffy tunneled through that uprooted the whole city and Moria was knocked out by a castle dropping on his face. Luffy won those impossible battles by taking advantage over the Warlord's strengths and weaknesses during their battle.

Or the author himself who introduced the characters too early as per his own words? It may not have been his intent, but it still played out as it did. This scenario is no different than some other writer getting stuck and having to contradict the established to get out of the bind.

 

[Rikudou Tobi]

Or the author himself who introduced the characters too early as per his own words?

It was in his own words during an interview I believe.

It may not have been his intent, but it still played out as it did. This scenario is no different than some other writer getting stuck and having to contradict the established to get out of the bind.

And this is exactly what I was talking about, you and every other person cannot make this call based on your bias opinion. You take what the author gives you and work with it. The only time you can say it's PIS is if the author admitted that it was a mistake in the first place, other than that you have no say in what you believe the manga should be written or interpreted.

 

[HowDidIGetPrem]

It was in his own words during an interview I believe.

And this is exactly what I was talking about, you and every other person cannot make this call based on your bias opinion. You take what the author gives you and work with it. The only time you can say it's PIS is if the author admitted that it was a mistake in the first place, other than that you have no say in what you believe the manga should be written or interpreted.

They should've been stronger during their initial appearances. We, including the author, all agree, yet they were established as scrubs and then that all turned around in Marineford. Plot. Induced. Stupidity. The writer himself doesn't have to admit to a mistake. The only requirement is that their prior material doesn't add up to what they introduce.

What you've written is akin to saying a non sequitur can't be called out unless the writer admits that his own argument is screwed.

 

[Rikudou Tobi]

They should've been stronger during their initial appearances. We, including the author, all agree, yet they were established as scrubs and then that all turned around in Marineford. Plot. Induced. Stupidity. The writer himself doesn't have to admit to a mistake. The only requirement is that their prior material doesn't add up to what they introduce.

@Bold Says who? He wrote it and not you, what is there to argue? You don't know what he was thinking or what he was trying to imply.
Moria was said to fight kaido toe to toe back in the day before the marineford, you're telling me fighting toe to toe with Kaido is now being a scrub?
See you're talking more nonsense and anyone with common sense knows that neither of them are scrubs. I think your problem here is that you don't know how strong Luffy was and how badly a castle can kill you or getting bashed through a city level bedrock can kill you. Take away those factors, and there would be no straw hat Luffy. Don't forget that Crocodile also beat Luffy 2/3 of their fight.
You're blinded by your opinion so there's nothing to further discuss. You basically shot yourself in the foot once you said that the author didn't have to admit to his mistake.
I take the authors words over you any day of the week because unlike you, Oda knows how the story ends and he knows his own thoughts including story more than you ever would.

What you've written is akin to saying a non sequitur can't be called out unless the writer admits that his own argument is screwed.

Clearly. It's Oda's story not yours, what can you of all people say to counter the author's intentions? Even if it doesn't make sense to you, you make it make sense.

 

[Rikudou Tobi]

They should've been stronger during their initial appearances. We, including the author, all agree, yet they were established as scrubs and then that all turned around in Marineford. Plot. Induced. Stupidity. The writer himself doesn't have to admit to a mistake. The only requirement is that their prior material doesn't add up to what they introduce.

@Bold Says who? He wrote it and not you, what is there to argue? You don't know what he was thinking or what he was trying to imply.
Moria was said to fight kaido toe to toe back in the day before the marineford, you're telling me fighting toe to toe with Kaido is now being a scrub?
See you're talking more nonsense and anyone with common sense knows that neither of them are scrubs. I think your problem here is that you don't know how strong Luffy was and how badly a castle can kill you or getting bashed through a city level bedrock can kill you. Take away those factors, and there would be no straw hat Luffy. Don't forget that Crocodile also beat Luffy 2/3 of their fight.
You're blinded by your opinion so there's nothing to further discuss. You basically shot yourself in the foot once you said that the author didn't have to admit to his mistake.
I take the authors words over you any day of the week because unlike you, Oda knows how the story ends and he knows his own thoughts including story more than you ever would. Revision exist you know

What you've written is akin to saying a non sequitur can't be called out unless the writer admits that his own argument is screwed.

Clearly. It's Oda's story not yours, what can you of all people say to counter the author's intentions? Even if it doesn't make sense to you, you make it make sense.

 

[HowDidIGetPrem]

@Bold Says who? He wrote it and not you, what is there to argue? You don't know what he was thinking or what he was trying to imply.
Moria was said to fight kaido toe to toe back in the day before the marineford, you're telling me fighting toe to toe with Kaido is now being a scrub?
See you're talking more nonsense and anyone with common sense knows that neither of them are scrubs. I think your problem here is that you don't know how strong Luffy was and how badly a castle can kill you or getting bashed through a city level bedrock can kill you. Take away those factors, and there would be no straw hat Luffy. Don't forget that Crocodile also beat Luffy 2/3 of their fight.
You're blinded by your opinion so there's nothing to further discuss. You basically shot yourself in the foot once you said that the author didn't have to admit to his mistake.
I take the authors words over you any day of the week because unlike you, Oda knows how the story ends and he knows his own thoughts including story more than you ever would. Revision exist you know

Clearly. It's Oda's story not yours, what can you of all people say to counter the author's intentions? Even if it doesn't make sense to you, you make it make sense.

I wrote what I wrote, who are you to question if my conclusion is sound? Even if you typed a solid thousand word argument, it should all fall flat against this status I hold.

 

[Rikudou Tobi]

I wrote what I wrote, who are you to question if my conclusion is sound? Even if you typed a solid thousand word argument, it should all fall flat against this status I hold.

Exactly because you have no judgment or say. Because you believe that they are all “scrubs” prior to their marineford showings, therefore you believe it is contradicting.
Oda said they weren’t scrubs and their feats into becoming warlords is valid despite Luffy’s PIS. Marineford feats add up to Moria and Crocodile feats/hype pre Luffy.

You still not following or are you still trying to add your two sense into Oda’s thinking?

What you believe makes sense even if it’s a thousand times remains irrelevant because you do not know Oda’s purpose. What makes sense to you know may not make any sense to anyone later down the road.

 

[HowDidIGetPrem]

Exactly because you have no judgment or say. Because you believe that they are all “scrubs” prior to their marineford showings, therefore you believe it is contradicting.
Oda said they weren’t scrubs and their feats into becoming warlords is valid despite Luffy’s PIS. Marineford feats add up to Moria and Crocodile feats/hype pre Luffy.

You still not following or are you still trying to add your two sense into Oda’s thinking?

What you believe makes sense even if it’s a thousand times remains irrelevant because you do not know Oda’s purpose. What makes sense to you know may not make any sense to anyone later down the road.

I wrote what I wrote. Your words cannot possibly paint my conclusion as wrong. Bow before the writer status.

 

[Rikudou Tobi]

I wrote what I wrote. Your words cannot possibly paint my conclusion as wrong. Bow before the writer status.

Oh excuse me but are you Oda? Did you write Onepiece? Do you know how it ends?

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

I already gave you an example of your logic not making any sense.
Is a “scrub” like Rob Lucci being in the cipher pol 0 making any sense to you? He lost to pre timeskip Luffy too. :sdo:

Looks like Minamagoto teh frstpiece chapter 910 titled “scrub” is coming out Friday too huh?

 

[HowDidIGetPrem]

Oh excuse me but are you Oda? Did you write Onepiece? Do you know how it ends?

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

I already gave you an example of your logic not making any sense.
Is a “scrub” like Rob Lucci being in the cipher pol 0 making any sense to you? He lost to pre timeskip Luffy too. :sdo:

Looks like Minamagoto teh frstpiece chapter 910 titled “scrub” is coming out Friday too huh?

Just wait, I'll be fapping at the thought of this when my supervisors allow me to release the chapter.

 

[OG sama]

He's gonna be YC3 level if he's Zoro's opponent so he will basically be as strong as Cracker or Doflamingo.

 

[TheAncientCenturion]

The second strongest enemy in Wano.

 

[Sakazuki]

The second strongest enemy in Wano.

Nah that's king

 

[TheAncientCenturion]

Nah that's king

Kaido isn't allying someone that weak. Which is what Orochi is. An ally.

 

[OG sama]

Kaido isn't allying someone that weak. Which is what Orochi is. An ally.

I can see why you would think the Shogun would be this strong but if you believe he's above King then that would make Orochi above or at Yonko FM level so that would mean Kaido has two Yonko FM level fighters on his side which I think is too much. We already seen how strong one is in Katakuri and only Luffy could beat him. So who exactly from Luffys side ia going to help beat both? Whilst also having Kaido to deal with?

 

[Love Cook]

He's gonna be YC3 level if he's Zoro's opponent so he will basically be as strong as Cracker or Doflamingo.

Why do you think a political leader has that much strength ? If he is that strong wouldn't he better suited in a different position over one where he has to act like a diplomat most of the time. Of all of the One Piece leaders, none are remotely as strong as a yonkou henchman.

 

[OG sama]

Why do you think a political leader has that much strength ? If he is that strong wouldn't he better suited in a different position over one where he has to act like a diplomat most of the time. Of all of the One Piece leaders, none are remotely as strong as a yonkou henchman.

Who said he was simply a political leader? Wano is a samurai nation not even the WG wants to meddle with due to their strength being unknown to the world, the WG doesnt want to even risk going there and starting anything with them. So the Shogun as their ruler should be very powerful. This isnt like other countries in OP the people of Wano should be like the minks on Zou, where every one there is a capable fighter even the children. I expect that to be no different for the citizens of Wano. I'm not saying the Shogun should be as strong as Kaidos strongest henchman but he should at least be strong enough to be considered a calamity imo. And it makes since for him to be Zoros opponent and I feel as though the next level for Zoro is to beat a calamity level foe someone on the level of a Vista, or a Cracker, or Doflamingo. That's what I consider YC3 level and thats where I think the Shogun should be.