[Theory] How Hashirama defeated Madara?

[Rainfall]

This is more of a question than a theory, but as previously stated, the senjuu, specifically hashiramma were known for their control over tailed beast. Tobi was controlling the fox during the attack on the village but has their been and evidence that madara was the one controlling the strings in his fight with the first? I'm not 100% confident when i say this, but wouldnt the first be in control of the fox when they fought? a small sliver of his chakra was in Tsunades necklace when naruto broke it, so can we imagine the full extent of his power to control a tailed beast?

 

[Rainfall]

and also, this would make the fight more believable, madara already seeming somewhat god like, putting the fox on the first side amkes the fight seem much more plausable

 

[rashimunu]

:| It's pretty clear to me too that Hashirama did beat Madara but not one-on-one and not in a fair combat. He had help and the only help, that could have been sufficient to influence a battle between 2 heavy hitters like Hashirama and Madara, may come in the form of Tobi (Whoever he is)

okay if tobi was brought back with edo tensei then you would be able to tell from his eyes and when his arm got infected during the fight with danzo's guard. it would have regenerated.

i believe that hashirama killed madara. in order for you to even use the rinnegan you have to train yourself through each path. madara possibly attained the rinnegan before he faced hashirama for the last time, but if he hadn't trained through the paths it wouldn't have mattered except to increase his chakra levels and possibly be why his susanoo is double headed.
We have to also remember that in order for the rinnegan to be fully usefull you have to have either cells implanted from senju or to be a descendent.

also there seem to be levels that must be reached for an uchiha to gain the rinnegan. the first 2 marks of sharingan, the third mark, mangekyo, eternal mangekyo, amaterasu, and susanoo. keep in mind that nagato was uzamaki. because of his blood it is possible that he is a child with both uchiha and senju blood. he didn't have to go through these levels and immediately awakened the rinnegan after his traumatic experience.

 

[JMAN]

So, in away we share the same thoughts. We do believe that fight wasn't exactly an ass-whooping for Madara and we also agree that Hashirama may have won lamely. In fact, we even agree that perhaps Kishi messed it up with Hashirama and now, he is a bit confused.

I have 2 ideas on Senju Clan's powers:

1). They were in larger minority and had Uzumakis along them. Thus, why they usually ended up matching the Uchihas whose most levels must be like Obito at that time, who knows?

2). There seemed to be only 2 Clans at Konoha initially. Now there are multiple clans. Perhaps, the Senju had multiple abilities like that of Nara, Yamanaka, Akimichi, Inuzuka ect... Clans Abiliies. As generations were passed on, the abilities got divided and a true combination of all power (Senju) didn't really exist. Well, just another theory, who knows? Atleast, some thing like that will atleast put Hashirama much higher in my eyes that he is right now. Teleportation seem another idea but since no one apart Minato really inherited this, I have some doubts.

And I rather leave the last parts of your posts since I've been discussing and tired discussing of Tobi's identity threads since very long. Hope you understand.



So it's right to base your arguments on facts that Hashirama defeated even if that fight was never shown but it's wrong that the Edo fight of Shodaime is taken into account even if this fight was clearly shown.

Frankly, I don't follow this logic. I'll believe Hashirama's stronger when that fight is shown till then I'll rather be firm to some theories (mine and some others)

Well at the moment you have to believe that Hashirama is stronger than Madara because it is stated in the manga that he defeated him .
Untill unless it is proven that the fight didn't go the way it was said , we have to believe that Hashirama was stronger than Madara.

What you say , can be compared with fight between SO6P's two sons , they fought and the younger one won! And i really think the older brother had eyes much stronger than Madara ! If we see it from your point of view it is impossible for the younger one to win because we don't know his abilities ...

 

[Escorpiius]

okay if tobi was brought back with edo tensei then you would be able to tell from his eyes and when his arm got infected during the fight with danzo's guard. it would have regenerated.

i believe that hashirama killed madara. in order for you to even use the rinnegan you have to train yourself through each path. madara possibly attained the rinnegan before he faced hashirama for the last time, but if he hadn't trained through the paths it wouldn't have mattered except to increase his chakra levels and possibly be why his susanoo is double headed.
We have to also remember that in order for the rinnegan to be fully usefull you have to have either cells implanted from senju or to be a descendent.

also there seem to be levels that must be reached for an uchiha to gain the rinnegan. the first 2 marks of sharingan, the third mark, mangekyo, eternal mangekyo, amaterasu, and susanoo. keep in mind that nagato was uzamaki. because of his blood it is possible that he is a child with both uchiha and senju blood. he didn't have to go through these levels and immediately awakened the rinnegan after his traumatic experience.

I explained that part about Tobi and Zetsu. I said, in one of my posts, that Zetsu is made from Hashirama. So, possibly, Tobi got powered up with Zetsu, later on only. Initially, he might have been an Edo. For example, Zetsus are begin affected by Rasengan but Tobi regenerated after Minato hit him with Rasengan. Perhaps, at that time, he was less of a Zetsu...

And I didn't really got your part about Rinnegan. I don't remember that part of Senju being implanted as condition for Rinnegan. It's Izanagi that needs Senju and Uchiha's DNA to be present so that you can perform it as far as I can remember. Some just said that since Rinnegan comes from SO6P and SO6P's later generation gave rise to Senju and Uchiha, they concluded that Senju and Uchiha's DNA re needed for Rinnegan to be useful. I don't think it was stated in the Manga though.

 

[-Kratos-]

This is more of a question than a theory, but as previously stated, the senjuu, specifically hashiramma were known for their control over tailed beast. Tobi was controlling the fox during the attack on the village but has their been and evidence that madara was the one controlling the strings in his fight with the first? I'm not 100% confident when i say this, but wouldnt the first be in control of the fox when they fought? a small sliver of his chakra was in Tsunades necklace when naruto broke it, so can we imagine the full extent of his power to control a tailed beast?

I think Madara controlled the Kyuubi since you can clearly see that the Kyuubi was against Hashirama, otherwise it would roam free.

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[psukkar]

Okay, instead of making lame exclamations that "Shodaime is so beast..." just because it is said by Kishi that he defeated Madara, I'd like to bring upon a theory.

I don't really think he beat Madara single-handedly. Why?

Well, if the 1st was so OP'd, even if his Edo was 10% of him, I still think he will cause much havoc than against an old Sarutobi.

In short, I'd like to bring upon a theory of how he managed to defeat a nearly God-level Madara.

Madara had Kyuubi, Sharingan, Susano'o and even Rinnegan.

Hashirama had his wife, Mokuton and Sage's Body.

While I believe 1st could have bested Kyuubi with his Mokuton and his wife and be better than Madara in Taijutsu, Madara still is better in Genjutus (Sharingan) and Ninjutsus (Rinnegan).

Since Madara seems to know Edo-Tensei and "HIM", I'll put upon a theory.

I think Hashirama was desperate at a point in his fight against Madara. He, thus tried his last hope that was the jutsus his little brother was experimenting on - Edo Tensei.

He summoned a powerful ninja which will be Tobi. Edo Tobi helped or perhaps considerably defeated Madara but since the Edo Tensei was not perfected yet, he escaped from Hashirama's control and went rogue in his way.

Hashirama, unable to reveal that he perhpas left a monster free, chose not to reveal this secret and thus claimed nice and clean that he bested the great Madara.

In this way, it was Hashirama and Tobi who defeated the all-mighty Madara. That's why Madara knows that the only person who could be behind this is HIM - The man who is responsible for his defeat.

Also, this might be why Tobi

- Knows about Madara, his Rinnegan abilities and all his secret.
- Got control of Hashirama's body and why he says that history is not clear when it's said that Hashirama defeated Madara.

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I know people who think high of Hashirama won't believe it but try to think of this with a cool head.

i have question dude,

before we saw madara in action did u think he would this strong? Probally not right.

So whats so hard to believe that madara's rival hasihrama was equally as strong and simpy came out on top.

U bring up a point about tobi and madara knowing each other though. Its getting harder and harder to figure out whats going on.

 

[ChupaKoTensie]

Hmmm.. everyone was surprised when madara let out the Rinnegan.. Now what if Senju has something up his sleeve too? anyone thought of any possibilities on that?

 

[GodaimeRaikage]

To those who think Tobi is the sage of the six paths or one of his sons.No! That is all.

 

[pein87]

Tobi said hashirama was the strongest ninja of his time. He also said he got EMS before the leaf was founded(thats the whole reason he was pissed about his brother's sacrifice because they wanted the treaty). He also said they fought over and over again. Majority of what tobi has said has been true to some extent. If the sage's older son go beat by his younger son then its possible that the same trend followed even down to their descendants. Jiraiya hinted there is more then just jutsu that makes someone strong. Obviously the sage's older son's eyes were closer to the originals then the EMS he would have had crazy jutsu. The fact that the physical side of the combo wins is pretty odd. You'd picture the crazy jutsu holder winning and it hasn't been the case. Tobi also states he only got fame from fighting with hashirama and not dying. Essentially he said senju where the strongest clan and only uchiha could counter them. Hence why they were always hired against them. He in all likely hood didn't have the rinnegan during their fight. Him and tobi were working together, much the same way as tobi and nagato were. The one thing that made hashirama's kekkei genkai stand out above the rest(most of which look to be more power and better suited for combat) is the ability to turn chakra into a source of life, which is what makes mokuton unique among the other kekkei genkai. That is stated as the major factor for his wood release and thus his ability to control tailed beast. Something is special about him being the yang type describe as the power to breath life into nothing. No other senju could turn chakra into a source of life and no other shinobi besides his clones can now(yamato and zetsu). If he wasn't something extremely rare they could have just gotten any old senju's dna. It had to be his power, the power to create live from nothing. I bet the plan and collaboration with tobi will be revealed through either dialogue with kabuto or with naruto asking about how he has the rinnegan. If mito sealed the fox during the fight that means their were others who saw the fight. Much like how others saw minato seal the kyubi. When he gives the spill on the fight he says everyone thought I died and I even fooled hashirama. That hints to others observed it and at the very least his wife did see it and was alive during the thirds rein. The bigger question is not who won but who then could kill either of them since they were elite and the two strongest shinobi. We know hashirama was alive while nawaki was alive because tsunade's flash backs show him walking the streets of konoha with tobirama while talking to her.

 

[Escorpiius]

Well at the moment you have to believe that Hashirama is stronger than Madara because it is stated in the manga that he defeated him .
Untill unless it is proven that the fight didn't go the way it was said , we have to believe that Hashirama was stronger than Madara.

What you say , can be compared with fight between SO6P's two sons , they fought and the younger one won! And i really think the older brother had eyes much stronger than Madara ! If we see it from your point of view it is impossible for the younger one to win because we don't know his abilities ...

I do believe that, as stated, by the manga, Hashirama defeated Madara.

But, until the fight is shown, I won't agree that Hashirama was stronger than Madara.
What I was to say, is that defeating someone doesn't obligatory means that you're stronger than someone and examples of those cases already have been shown.

Silly comparison...We neither don't know abything of the abilities of the 2 brothers whereas Madara was just shown fighting and we saw Hashirama's Edo fighting (even if the Edo was weak compared to now). Still, we know an approximation of their powers unlike the Sage's Sons.

i have question dude,

before we saw madara in action did u think he would this strong? Probally not right.

So whats so hard to believe that madara's rival hasihrama was equally as strong and simpy came out on top.

U bring up a point about tobi and madara knowing each other though. Its getting harder and harder to figure out whats going on.

Before we see Madara in action. I believed he'd be badass but not so overwhelming. I thought that it will around 3-4 times more powerful and impressive that what Oro's version of Shodaime (considering that Edo version was weak) but what Madara showed us, is like 10-20 times more impressive.

Which makes me wonder? There's huge chances that the Valley of the End battle hides some meaning. The verdict was known to everyone but the proceeding might not have been that simple.

I already explained why I think Hashirama was not as strong as his rival i one of my other (check it out if you wish). It's his account - the fail demonstration against the 3rd despite the 3rd was old and Oro and 2nd was on his side. Also, there's Kakuzu which, by now seems like a normal ninja compared to other powerhouses ninjas but which stayed alive after having fought the seemingly greatest ninja -- weird?

Well, it's because the point is fair enough. Madara seems to know Tobi and refers to "HIM" in a scared and angry tone. How many person do you think Madara might be scared of? Either someone he knew during his life or someone who defeated him - for me, this is pretty clear that Tobi is someone from those 2 generations (Someone during Madara/Shodaime generation or someone before those 2 generations). Now, as I said, it's a theory. There are plot holes but there are points which aren't that implausible either...

 

[psukkar]

I do believe that, as stated, by the manga, Hashirama defeated Madara.

But, until the fight is shown, I won't agree that Hashirama was stronger than Madara.
What I was to say, is that defeating someone doesn't obligatory means that you're stronger than someone and examples of those cases already have been shown.

Silly comparison...We neither don't know abything of the abilities of the 2 brothers whereas Madara was just shown fighting and we saw Hashirama's Edo fighting (even if the Edo was weak compared to now). Still, we know an approximation of their powers unlike the Sage's Sons.



Before we see Madara in action. I believed he'd be badass but not so overwhelming. I thought that it will around 3-4 times more powerful and impressive that what Oro's version of Shodaime (considering that Edo version was weak) but what Madara showed us, is like 10-20 times more impressive.

Which makes me wonder? There's huge chances that the Valley of the End battle hides some meaning. The verdict was known to everyone but the proceeding might not have been that simple.

I already explained why I think Hashirama was not as strong as his rival i one of my other (check it out if you wish). It's his account - the fail demonstration against the 3rd despite the 3rd was old and Oro and 2nd was on his side. Also, there's Kakuzu which, by now seems like a normal ninja compared to other powerhouses ninjas but which stayed alive after having fought the seemingly greatest ninja -- weird?

Well, it's because the point is fair enough. Madara seems to know Tobi and refers to "HIM" in a scared and angry tone. How many person do you think Madara might be scared of? Either someone he knew during his life or someone who defeated him - for me, this is pretty clear that Tobi is someone from those 2 generations (Someone during Madara/Shodaime generation or someone before those 2 generations). Now, as I said, it's a theory. There are plot holes but there are points which aren't that implausible either...

so ur saying bcause ninjas that fought hasihrama, lived means hasihrama isnt that strong? Comon dude u dont have to kill someone to prove ur stronger. Hasihrama seems to have benevolent nature. Mainly becuase the senju come from the younger son believing peace can only be achieved by love or what ever.

It's the uchiha that need to kill just like the older son they come from.


Look at naruto he hasnt killed anyone but is very strong or is weak according to you because he doesnt deal the killing blow. Is sasuke strong because he's lunatic willing to kill anyone saying the word uchiha?

We dont know how powerful hasihrama was and its safe to say he was just as strong as madara if not stronger due what the outcome of their battle.

 

[niblack89]

Madara didn't die with his battle wit the 1st that real but, later on in life he gained the rinnegan. Kabuto said I brought you back in your prime. Meaning maybe Tobi had the real truth. Madara was a shell of his formers self after that battle. That could be how someone actually defeated him even wit the rinnegan.

 

[Firesword]

tobi is obito fused with black zetsu, remember darth vader? and how he became that??

 

[Kaongakure]

Hashirama defeated Madara with paper, rock, scissors! When Madara did the scissors Hashirama shot him with his chakra infused spirit gun. Yeah, baby! xd

Seriously though, I believe that Hashirama kept the Kyuubi at bay through the use of his Mokuton. I agree with rainfall when he posted:

"a small sliver of his chakra was in Tsunades necklace when naruto broke it, so can we imagine the full extent of his power to control a tailed beast?"

Also the 1st could have used scrolls to assist him in the fight. Why not? Madara had the EMS so Hashirama had his scrolls to counter attacks such as the Amaterasu. Remember when Jiraiya used his scroll against Itachi's Amaterasu? Don't deny the power of the scrolls!!

Question: How did Hashirama die? Yes, Konohan history states that Hashirama defeated Madara, but what killed the 1st? Did Madara's defeat come with a cost? Things that make you go hmmmm?

 

[FK166]

You are seem to forget the point that Hashirama had access to the scrolls of seals which we all saw on the 1st-2nd chapter Naruto learning the first technique Shadow clones jitsu on the list... Hashirama had access to forbidden jitsu that even Orochimaru didn't get access to because he sealed them away because they were too dangerous. It doen't say Hashirama did,but Kishimoto drawing of Madara and Hashirama battle(Chapter 399 page 10).On theory, yeah its possible.