[Theory] How Hashirama defeated Madara?

[System001]

I like your theory just because its out of the BOX that has been created by assumptions however i still have the nagging feeling deep down that if harishima didnt been madara fair and square the manga has contridicted itself slightly and naruto would never be the same it would also lead me to believe that naruto will definitly DIE in this war and if your thoery is true I WILL LOL so hard about the tobi turning on harishima and getting his own agenda part LOL

 

[BigTDogg220]

No, the thing is - Tobi was never on Hashiramas side. He says - "Hashirama defeated me but the true victor came out the one who thought ahead" (just before he killed of Konan). That's just one reference but there's alot more and in all of them he's leaning towards Madaras side and not Hashis.

Another thing, Tobi is not and Edo Tensei summon. He is a living creature and his body is like of Zetsus. If he as Edo Tensei he wouldn't need to dodge attacks in first place. It's a nice theory tho.

So true thank you.

 

[Escorpiius]

I like your theory just because its out of the BOX that has been created by assumptions however i still have the nagging feeling deep down that if harishima didnt been madara fair and square the manga has contridicted itself slightly and naruto would never be the same it would also lead me to believe that naruto will definitly DIE in this war and if your thoery is true I WILL LOL so hard about the tobi turning on harishima and getting his own agenda part LOL

Thanks.

And Naruto doesn't really deep ties with Hashirama anyways. It's Jiraiya, Minato, Kakashi, Kushina and Nagato who really made him who is. The others - almost all characters - have minor influences on him to my view atleast.

 

[list4e]

YOU GUYS SUCK, now i will explain why. Madara GOT THIS SPEED AND FIRE BALL AND ALL OTHER power-uped by kabuto idiots... the normal madara's speed or fire ball wasnt so powerfull. Kabuto said this is not yours few times SO DONT GET COCKY THAT HE IS GODLIKE AND BEATED HASHIRAMA. In manga was clearly said that hashirama fought madara 1 on 1 with kyuubi on madara's side. Second one is that hashirama's brother made edo tensei after hashirama's death(you suck again) and HASHIRAMA DOESNT KNOW THE JUTSU.. so stfu. Sasuke changed naruto alot too _-_ ... (shall i say again that you..?)Sasuke made naruto be the naruto you know now, sasuke made naruto to fight harder, to make his new jutsu and much more

 

[Firesword]

madara activated rinnegan when he fought with hasirama. Im sure of that

 

[Escorpiius]

YOU GUYS SUCK, now i will explain why. Madara GOT THIS SPEED AND FIRE BALL AND ALL OTHER power-uped by kabuto idiots... the normal madara's speed or fire ball wasnt so powerfull. Kabuto said this is not yours few times SO DONT GET COCKY THAT HE IS GODLIKE AND BEATED HASHIRAMA. In manga was clearly said that hashirama fought madara 1 on 1 with kyuubi on madara's side. Second one is that hashirama's brother made edo tensei after hashirama's death(you suck again) and HASHIRAMA DOESNT KNOW THE JUTSU.. so stfu.

1. Kabuto may have given power-uped to Madara but Madara still got Susano'o, EMS, and even Rinnegan.

2. That's why I said that Edo Tensei was still just an experiment by Tobirama at that time and only his brother knew about him. He might have used this imperfect jutsus but never revealed because of the consequences of what I've said.

3. So Madara is damn good because he's an Edo now and Hashirama was good enough to beat him even if Hashirama's Edo didn't much against an old Sarutobi and even couldn't kill someone as Kakuzu.

He's overhyped in my eyes. I'm not saying he's weak - I'm just stating that he couldn't beat Madara alone. Instead of replying me with cussing words and unleashing CapsLock, try bring up some proofs that I can't really contradict.

 

[Escorpiius]

So true thank you.

I've explained my Point of view in some of my above posts.

 

[MinatoIsBestHokage]

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I have thought for awhile this masked man has to be the So6P older son. I think its pretty obvious.

1 - Tobi/Madara (Person who I believe to be So6P who I will just call Masked Man from this point forward) has said that Nagato's eyes aka Rinnegan always belonged to him.

2 - Since he claims that these eyes belonged to him to begin with, it is easy for one to predict or even conclude that the older brother obviously believed everything his father (So6P) had belonged to him, not the younger brother.

3 - This I find to be the biggest part and ties everything in. Everyone forgets that Nagato is from the Uzumaki Clan who is a distant relative of the Senju clan. I believe this Masked Man waited for the genetic mutation to occur (which the Rinnegan is a genetic mutation, I believe that is stated by both Jirayai and Kakashi multiple times I just don't feel like going back and finding which chapters) and he finally found it in Nagato and he now has what he believes rightfully belongs to him. Also as I already stated in my post (link above) and this one above (sorry forgot the poster's name but props to you ;p) this Masked Man knows wayyyyy tooooo much like the Moon's Eye Plan, becoming the Jinchurukii of the Ten Tails, and reflecting an Infinite tsukuyomi off the moon so that everyone is under his control.

4 - Finally only someone with such extensive knowledge like the So6P or one of his son's I believe would be able to not only create but know step by step what to do to get this Moon's Eye Plan accomplished because remember, THE MOON IS THE TEN TAILS. So pretty much this masked man plans on taking away the moon and reflecting the Genjutsu at the same time. Only someone who has such extensive knowledge of all of this could accomplish something of this magnitude.


Sorry for that rant ;p, but anyway we must remember that all those arguing that Madara had the Kyuubi against the 1st Hokage is wrong because the 1st was able to control tailed beasts as well, if not, better than Madara. The 2nd part, which is big because up until 20 minutes ago I didn't believe there was a chance in hell after reading chapter 560 that Madara would lose to the 1st but Madara even says in Chapter 560 that he awoke the Rinnegan SHORTLY BEFORE HIS DEATH. So how long did he really have to use it? So you take those 2 things away and you are left with EMS against the Strongest Shinobi of his time from what we know. I don't think this battle was 1v1 either but I do think the 1st was victorious in the end, and as far as this whole Tobi is actually an Edo Tensei, I like the theory but it is very far fetched I mean why would this Edo Tensei have all of these amazing Jutsus like the Space Time Jutsu's and MS....it just makes more sense to me that it would be the So6P older son.

 

[Escorpiius]

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I have thought for awhile this masked man has to be the So6P older son. I think its pretty obvious.

1 - Tobi/Madara (Person who I believe to be So6P who I will just call Masked Man from this point forward) has said that Nagato's eyes aka Rinnegan always belonged to him.

2 - Since he claims that these eyes belonged to him to begin with, it is easy for one to predict or even conclude that the older brother obviously believed everything his father (So6P) had belonged to him, not the younger brother.

3 - This I find to be the biggest part and ties everything in. Everyone forgets that Nagato is from the Uzumaki Clan who is a distant relative of the Senju clan. I believe this Masked Man waited for the genetic mutation to occur (which the Rinnegan is a genetic mutation, I believe that is stated by both Jirayai and Kakashi multiple times I just don't feel like going back and finding which chapters) and he finally found it in Nagato and he now has what he believes rightfully belongs to him. Also as I already stated in my post (link above) and this one above (sorry forgot the poster's name but props to you ;p) this Masked Man knows wayyyyy tooooo much like the Moon's Eye Plan, becoming the Jinchurukii of the Ten Tails, and reflecting an Infinite tsukuyomi off the moon so that everyone is under his control.

4 - Finally only someone with such extensive knowledge like the So6P or one of his son's I believe would be able to not only create but know step by step what to do to get this Moon's Eye Plan accomplished because remember, THE MOON IS THE TEN TAILS. So pretty much this masked man plans on taking away the moon and reflecting the Genjutsu at the same time. Only someone who has such extensive knowledge of all of this could accomplish something of this magnitude.


Sorry for that rant ;p, but anyway we must remember that all those arguing that Madara had the Kyuubi against the 1st Hokage is wrong because the 1st was able to control tailed beasts as well, if not, better than Madara. The 2nd part, which is big because up until 20 minutes ago I didn't believe there was a chance in hell after reading chapter 560 that Madara would lose to the 1st but Madara even says in Chapter 560 that he awoke the Rinnegan SHORTLY BEFORE HIS DEATH. So how long did he really have to use it? So you take those 2 things away and you are left with EMS against the Strongest Shinobi of his time from what we know. I don't think this battle was 1v1 either but I do think the 1st was victorious in the end, and as far as this whole Tobi is actually an Edo Tensei, I like the theory but it is very far fetched I mean why would this Edo Tensei have all of these amazing Jutsus like the Space Time Jutsu's and MS....it just makes more sense to me that it would be the So6P older son.

As I said I'm not interested about who Tobi is. Whoever it is, if he's been Edo Tensei'd, my theory fits. Whether it's SO6P's son, Izuna, SO6P ect... who been Edo'd, I don't care. My point is Hashirama had a serious backup in his fight against Madara and the only SERIOUS help can come in the form of the Masked Man, Tobi.

Hashirama controlling Kyuubi with Mokuton isn't still clear. Both MS and Mokuton claim to control Kyuubi - both may be right.
I do believe that with his Mokuton and Mito uzumaki, he bested Kyuubi but not Madara.

It's a bit far-fetched perhaps but like I said, if according to me, the fight wasn't fair, the backup must be a serious one and this seems to fit atleast with me. And An Edo Tensei normally do get the amazing Jutsu of his former shelf, doesn't it? Plus Tobi never showed MS yet.

 

[Zesh]

Remember Nagato? He considered himself to be God, yes inferior to the SO6P but still a 'beast'. But you saw what his body was like, right? Crippled, decaying and too me thats what it comes down to. Yes, Madara has these GOD like powers but it takes a toll on the body. I don't see Hashi having backup but rather beating Madara because he possesed the 'body'. He was able to go on a little longer and with Madara running on empty it would be easy to finish him off. That could be the reason why the younger son bested the older one. Body > Eye, no?

 

[MinatoIsBestHokage]

As I said I'm not interested about who Tobi is. Whoever it is, if he's been Edo Tensei'd, my theory fits. Whether it's SO6P's son, Izuna, SO6P ect... who been Edo'd, I don't care. My point is Hashirama had a serious backup in his fight against Madara and the only SERIOUS help can come in the form of the Masked Man, Tobi.

Hashirama controlling Kyuubi with Mokuton isn't still clear. Both MS and Mokuton claim to control Kyuubi - both may be right.
I do believe that with his Mokuton and Mito uzumaki, he bested Kyuubi but not Madara.

It's a bit far-fetched perhaps but like I said, if according to me, the fight wasn't fair, the backup must be a serious one and this seems to fit atleast with me. And An Edo Tensei normally do get the amazing Jutsu of his former shelf, doesn't it? Plus Tobi never showed MS yet.

I got a little out of hand with my post and my beliefs on who Tobi is, sorry about that, I will address your main point.

I don't think Hashirama needed backup at all, and trust me I am not one of those people who think he is the best of all time blah blah, but some things are pretty obvious. As the history goes, anytime one person hired the Uchiha, the other person would hire the Senju and so on and so forth, finally they came to a truce and we have the Hidden Leaf/Konoha. Also we must remember the 1st had CRAZY STAMINA and I honestly think his full potential is not known (I mean for god sake's this Fourth Great Shinobi War wouldn't even be going on if Tobi did not have the first's cells because Zetsu's white clones wouldn't be as powerful or as large in number, etc...)


Before I go off in a huge explanation I just want to know why you find it so hard to believe that the 1st could have won this fight? I am not saying that the 1st won it in a landslide victory cause I am sure that isn't the case but Madara did not have access to his Rinnegan as he got it before he died whether it be in this fight or another, the Kyuubi is not a factor because even with Madara's EMS, Hashirama was known for his control over tailed beasts better than anything else he did. I mean if Madara was so powerful, he would have either been Hokage or he would have been able to defeat the Senju clan in all of those battles or at least Hashirama. And as far as Sharingan goes there are ways to defend against it as we have seen. I think now that we have seen Madara in this latest chapter seem almost indestructible it is now hard for some people to see how he ever lost but like I said we really don't know the 1st's powers to that great of an extent other than some things like his wood release, tailed beast control, etc...

 

[MinatoIsBestHokage]

As I said I'm not interested about who Tobi is. Whoever it is, if he's been Edo Tensei'd, my theory fits. Whether it's SO6P's son, Izuna, SO6P ect... who been Edo'd, I don't care. My point is Hashirama had a serious backup in his fight against Madara and the only SERIOUS help can come in the form of the Masked Man, Tobi.

Hashirama controlling Kyuubi with Mokuton isn't still clear. Both MS and Mokuton claim to control Kyuubi - both may be right.
I do believe that with his Mokuton and Mito uzumaki, he bested Kyuubi but not Madara.

It's a bit far-fetched perhaps but like I said, if according to me, the fight wasn't fair, the backup must be a serious one and this seems to fit atleast with me. And An Edo Tensei normally do get the amazing Jutsu of his former shelf, doesn't it? Plus Tobi never showed MS yet.

Okay sorry I just read your originally post, I think I posted in the wrong topic, I have been posting like crazy today sorry about that ;p

But I do want to argue this cause your theory, at least I think, is too heavily favored on Madara's side.

Madara had all of the EMS abilities, Susanoo and all of that, but Susanoo is only able to be sustained for as long as the user has life force/chakra. Hashirama could have made the fight drag on to the point where Madara was so physically exhausted because as we have seen with both Sasuke and Itachi, sustaining Susanoo is not easy AT ALL.

As far as Madara being God-Level, I don't know where that is coming from because like I stated I don't think he had Rinnegan in his fight against the 1st and we can only base that off of what he said which was "I awakened these eyes shortly before my death..." That doesn't sound particularly God-Level to me. Its not like he went into the fight being able to use Rinnegan so that also gets rid of your Madara being better at Ninjutsu theory because of the Rinnegan. Another indicator that he probably died in this battle or at least lost (I am only writing lost because we still aren't sure about the whole Madara/Who is Tobi thing and everything he has said about the fight). is that he looks the same and from what I can tell is wearing the same thing it looks like from his battle with Hashirama.

The Kyuubi thing as I think we have both agreed upon is not a factor in this fight so the Fox isn't in anyone's corner at least not for the entire fight.

These are obviously only theories and I am by no means a Hashirama lover or think he is a beast, but I do think from the knowledge we have if Madara truly was God-Level he would have never allowed Hashirama to become Hokage and he would have established his clan as far superior to the Senju's therefore never leading to a truce cause I think he would have been quite capable of wiping them out if he was as strong as you are making him out to be.

Also if they are separate people. I don't think Tobi has any idea of Madara's Rinnegan Abilities because if he did I don't think he would have went through all of this planning and using Nagato and all of this just to get "what is rightfully his." He would have probably just took Madara's eyes or at least had them in his collection.

And lets just go along with your theory for a second. So Hashirama is losing and he somehow uses Edo Tensei on someone who has all these abilities to begin with and is able to kill or badly damage a God-Like Madara? Wouldn't this person (Tobi) who Hashirama summoned have been the leader of the Uchiha's and not Madara? And even if he didn't start out with Sharingan how was he able to turn the tide of the fight to Hashirama's favor?

Trust me, I like your theory, it is very creative and definitely one of the better ones I have heard, it would explain a lot especially the reason why Tobi wanted to know so badly how this Jutsu worked. But I just think there are too many holes.

 

[modthis]

There is no "fair" in the Shinobi dictionary......

 

[Escorpiius]

But I do want to argue this cause your theory, at least I think, is too heavily favored on Madara's side.

I don't think Hashirama needed backup at all, and trust me I am not one of those people who think he is the best of all time blah blah, but some things are pretty obvious. As the history goes, anytime one person hired the Uchiha, the other person would hire the Senju and so on and so forth, finally they came to a truce and we have the Hidden Leaf/Konoha. Also we must remember the 1st had CRAZY STAMINA and I honestly think his full potential is not known (I mean for god sake's this Fourth Great Shinobi War wouldn't even be going on if Tobi did not have the first's cells because Zetsu's white clones wouldn't be as powerful or as large in number, etc...)

Madara had all of the EMS abilities, Susanoo and all of that, but Susanoo is only able to be sustained for as long as the user has life force/chakra. Hashirama could have made the fight drag on to the point where Madara was so physically exhausted because as we have seen with both Sasuke and Itachi, sustaining Susanoo is not easy AT ALL.

As far as Madara being God-Level, I don't know where that is coming from because like I stated I don't think he had Rinnegan in his fight against the 1st and we can only base that off of what he said which was "I awakened these eyes shortly before my death..." That doesn't sound particularly God-Level to me. Its not like he went into the fight being able to use Rinnegan so that also gets rid of your Madara being better at Ninjutsu theory because of the Rinnegan. Another indicator that he probably died in this battle or at least lost (I am only writing lost because we still aren't sure about the whole Madara/Who is Tobi thing and everything he has said about the fight). is that he looks the same and from what I can tell is wearing the same thing it looks like from his battle with Hashirama.

The Kyuubi thing as I think we have both agreed upon is not a factor in this fight so the Fox isn't in anyone's corner at least not for the entire fight.

These are obviously only theories and I am by no means a Hashirama lover or think he is a beast, but I do think from the knowledge we have if Madara truly was God-Level he would have never allowed Hashirama to become Hokage and he would have established his clan as far superior to the Senju's therefore never leading to a truce cause I think he would have been quite capable of wiping them out if he was as strong as you are making him out to be.

Also if they are separate people. I don't think Tobi has any idea of Madara's Rinnegan Abilities because if he did I don't think he would have went through all of this planning and using Nagato and all of this just to get "what is rightfully his." He would have probably just took Madara's eyes or at least had them in his collection.

And lets just go along with your theory for a second. So Hashirama is losing and he somehow uses Edo Tensei on someone who has all these abilities to begin with and is able to kill or badly damage a God-Like Madara? Wouldn't this person (Tobi) who Hashirama summoned have been the leader of the Uchiha's and not Madara? And even if he didn't start out with Sharingan how was he able to turn the tide of the fight to Hashirama's favor?

Trust me, I like your theory, it is very creative and definitely one of the better ones I have heard, it would explain a lot especially the reason why Tobi wanted to know so badly how this Jutsu worked. But I just think there are too many holes.

Seriously, I love your posts. Definitely amongst the most elaborate ones, I've read today.

So, one of those serious force of Hashirama will most likely be his defense thus, winning his fight on a long run against Madara - who's stamina was much less than in Edo version. Well, atleast it's an argument much more valid than those fanboys screaming "Hashirama is more beast ect...".

But still, not that I don't think of it as a possibility but if it occurred like this, if will be quite lame cause it will have meant that Hashirama's fight was just a fight based on time and defense which isn't how we, fans are exactly expecting it.

As for Madara's phrase "I awakened these eyes shortly before my death...", I still consider Tobi to someone other than Madara (Kishi better not troll me on that) and thus I believe Madara succumb in this fight. My guess with this part is that he was losing in someway (whichever way - yours or mine) against Hashirama and thus, he awakened his Rinnegan as last measure and unleashed the Rinnegan wonder powers for a short instance atleast before dying without being able to show to anybody his acquirance of Rinnegan.

As for Madara being leader of Konoha because he was really powerful, well, I don't think, it works exactly like that. See the villages for itself, even if one Kage is much more powerful than the other, they are still skeptical when to wage all-out wars. Moreover, you need a group if you wanna wage wars. As per the story, the Uchiha seemed pacific in nature and only Madara seemed against the Senju at a point. When gained power, the Senju oppressed the Uchiha hierarchically and what can Madara do if he was all-alone against a Clan? Perhaps, he knew he was gonna fail by being short at some time. He might have think that even he destroyed most of the Senju clan, he won't have the ability/stamina to fight a fresh Hashirama then. And his plan in way was to uptake Konoha by himself if you think of it the other way round. He decided to went someone pretty far from the Village (The Valley) to fight the Leader. If he defeated Hashirama, he wasn't really forced to attack the other Senju immediately given the position of the valley. He could have wait for days before coming back to the village and claiming the village by force or by choice from the other Senju. But that's part doesn't really affect my story cause I don't think it states that it's because Madara was quite weak that he was unable to take the village from the Senjus. There must be other factors.

And about if the Edo Tobi were an Uchiha, the Uchiha were most likely to have decided not to fight the Senju as per the initial story of Tobi. Also, Edo Tensei do bind the summoned to its controller (summoner). Also, it's not clear if Tobi was or was not an Uchiha like you stated. Since the Sharingan of Tobi remains active, it will not be something weird if it was an implanted one.

Thanks for your feedback and I really like yours counter-arguments too. The part about Hashirama winning by stamina seems plausible even if to me, it will be lame (writing point of view) that the victory of his came in this way. Well, it's a theory - it's not full-proof - but atleast, some (like you) countered it rightfully by proposing valid argument instead of just saying that Hashirama won because he's just better or more beast than Hashirama.

 

[MinatoIsBestHokage]

Seriously, I love your posts. Definitely amongst the most elaborate ones, I've read today.

So, one of those serious force of Hashirama will most likely be his defense thus, winning his fight on a long run against Madara - who's stamina was much less than in Edo version. Well, atleast it's an argument much more valid than those fanboys screaming "Hashirama is more beast ect...".

But still, not that I don't think of it as a possibility but if it occurred like this, if will be quite lame cause it will have meant that Hashirama's fight was just a fight based on time and defense which isn't how we, fans are exactly expecting it.

As for Madara's phrase "I awakened these eyes shortly before my death...", I still consider Tobi to someone other than Madara (Kishi better not troll me on that) and thus I believe Madara succumb in this fight. My guess with this part is that he was losing in someway (whichever way - yours or mine) against Hashirama and thus, he awakened his Rinnegan as last measure and unleashed the Rinnegan wonder powers for a short instance atleast before dying without being able to show to anybody his acquirance of Rinnegan.

As for Madara being leader of Konoha because he was really powerful, well, I don't think, it works exactly like that. See the villages for itself, even if one Kage is much more powerful than the other, they are still skeptical when to wage all-out wars. Moreover, you need a group if you wanna wage wars. As per the story, the Uchiha seemed pacific in nature and only Madara seemed against the Senju at a point. When gained power, the Senju oppressed the Uchiha hierarchically and what can Madara do if he was all-alone against a Clan? Perhaps, he knew he was gonna fail by being short at some time. He might have think that even he destroyed most of the Senju clan, he won't have the ability/stamina to fight a fresh Hashirama then. And his plan in way was to uptake Konoha by himself if you think of it the other way round. He decided to went someone pretty far from the Village (The Valley) to fight the Leader. If he defeated Hashirama, he wasn't really forced to attack the other Senju immediately given the position of the valley. He could have wait for days before coming back to the village and claiming the village by force or by choice from the other Senju. But that's part doesn't really affect my story cause I don't think it states that it's because Madara was quite weak that he was unable to take the village from the Senjus. There must be other factors.

And about if the Edo Tobi were an Uchiha, the Uchiha were most likely to have decided not to fight the Senju as per the initial story of Tobi. Also, Edo Tensei do bind the summoned to its controller (summoner). Also, it's not clear if Tobi was or was not an Uchiha like you stated. Since the Sharingan of Tobi remains active, it will not be something weird if it was an implanted one.

Thanks for your feedback and I really like yours counter-arguments too. The part about Hashirama winning by stamina seems plausible even if to me, it will be lame (writing point of view) that the victory of his came in this way. Well, it's a theory - it's not full-proof - but atleast, some (like you) countered it rightfully by proposing valid argument instead of just saying that Hashirama won because he's just better or more beast than Hashirama.

Thank you very much Escorpiius for the compliments and as I said, I do like your theory A LOT. And I do agree that it would be super lame if stamina is why the 1st won, super, super LAME. The only MAIN problem I had with your theory was stating that there was no way the 1st could win without the help of someone (aka Tobi) and Madara was God-Like. I mean as someone said, anyone can beat anyone in the Narutoverse given the right circumstances and chances. I think the 1st gets way too much credit skill-wise, I mean as a leader he was second to none but skill wise we still haven't been shown to much about his skills other than when he is brought back to fight the 3rd and even then I can't really take that fight seriously because it was sooooo far backkkk and I don't think Kishi meant for Edo-Tensei to be such a big part of the story at this point if you catch what I am saying. (Pretty much back then it was just for show and to make things interesting such as OMG!!! the 3rd is about to take on the first 2 hokages this is ridiculous blah blah...but I don't think it was as strong and/or unstoppable of a Jutsu as it is right now, you know what I mean?)

I definitely think there is a possibility Madara won. Maybe even Madara let the 1st crawl back with his tail between his legs and they made a pact so that Madara could disappear and Hashirama could remain Hokage. This is why what we say are arguments/theories and we happen to make good one's other than some people who like you said claim Hashirama won just because he is a beast, that makes no sense and I would argue it like you did.

See the thing that I want to make you realize more than anything is, yes of course Madara wouldn't have been able to take out a whole Senju clan, but what in the hell makes the Senju so damn powerful to go against a battle-oriented clan like the Uchiha time and time again? This is why I said I don't think we know the full capabilities/powers of the Senju clan, let alone Hashirama their strongest member and leader. I mean there had to be some sort of power they had that allowed them to go head to head against them because most people in the Narutoverse can't even take on one STRONG Uchiha like Itachi (Actually I don't think anyone could except for maybe Madara, Pain, a couple of others). so like I said what in the hell made the Senju so powerful, its not Wood Release because that was only Hashirama's Kekkei Genkai. There is definitely something we are missing from the whole battle and the Senju clan especially. I mean think about it, every main villian in this series has wanted the either the Sharingan or had it or some other dojutsu: Orochimaru, Itachi, Madara, Pain etc... There HAS GOT TO BE something to the Senju clan that we all do not know yet that make them so damn powerful (and I don't want to hear the Will of Fire, that is just lame ;p) I think I might be Space-Time Ninjutsu's, since we know the 2nd Hokage was good and knowledgeable with them (As Minato states when fighting Tobi...), but that is just my guess ;p

I do agree with you that Tobi is someone else and I think we don't have enough information yet to know what the answer is to all of these threads that are being made every second: OHHH WHO IS TOBI/MADARA??? ARE THEY THE SAME PERSON??? "IS SASUKE GOING TO GET THE RINNEGAN NOW THAT WE KNOW IT EVOLVES?!?!" I think these past 2 chapters have been somewhat of a diversion of sorts to throw the Allied Shinobi Force into chaos and dismay and I think we are being tricked to believe certain things that have happened in the past 2 chapters, and hopefully we do FINALLY find out WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED IN THE FIGHT BETWEEN MADARA AND HASHIRAMA? Because to be honest I think I would rather know that now than who Tobi is because Tobi can only be a handful of people and I think any smart, intelligent Naruto follower would believe that as well...

As for Tobi being an Edo-Tensei, like I wrote in my last post and I think you are kinda seeing now...If he was revived through Edo-Tensei, who in the hell did Hashirama revive to make such a strong being because they obviously had to be this way before he revived them or at least have the Sharingan, Space-Time Ninjutsu, etc... I guess what I am getting at is (and going along with your theory) who in the hell is this Tobi person that he died in the past and Hashirama brought him back to life and allowed him to kill Madara and remain Hokage? This is why I think it has to be the So6P older son or even the So6P (though I think the latter is way more far fetched then the former). See your theory is a good one but every theory I have read points to it being someone stronger than Madara, Hashirama, and anyone else we know of right now.

P.S. - IT IS NOT IZUNA PEOPLE

 

[-Kratos-]

I think you are right there's no way Hashirama could defeat Madara all by himself especially when Madara had the Kyuubi under his control.

Madara of course isn't strong enough as he was before cause as Kabuto said, "...You've been completed to beyond what you were in your prime...", but at least he had EMS, Rinnegan, Susanoo (not an ordinary and the coolest I've seen so far) and the Kyuubi under his control!

 

[Dean-Winchester]

It can't be sage, that would make absolutely no sense. He doesn't even need to do anything he is a GOD to begin with. He died, that's official but there isnt anything said about death of his sons. We know they fought and the younger one won but how did it end?


Just going to drop this bomb here..

Connections between elder son and Tobi :

*believed in peace by power (moon's eye plan goes well in this category)

*got owned by younger son

*Hides his identity

*The way Kabuto and Madara reffered to him in the latest chapters points out that he was someone very strong and powerful

*His techs are beyond anything we have seen in manga

*is arrogant and threats everyone as children

*Tobi wants to become Juubi jinchuurikki, why? To continue his fathers legacy. These elder sons always try to obtain their fathers powers. It's a classic story.

*was talking to Naruto, Kakashi, Yamato about how Senju and Uchiha has always fought and it's their destiny (he witnesses it himself couple of times already)

*is a former shell of himself - either because of being owned by younger son and loosing his powers or because of being extremely old and living thanks to Zetsu

*knows everything there is to know about Rinnegan, Sharingan, SO6P, Uchiha, Senju and everything else

*talks about Madara's fight versus Hashirama as if it was his fight but he's not Madara

This starts to make sense now because Madara could very well have been apprentice of elder son. He was the one pushing Madara to doubt Hashirama and Senju (because of the hate between those clans), he was the one who pushed him to fight Hashirama (to obtain his cells?). He was the one who promised to ressurect Madara after he died. Maybe he even wanted to use Madara to synch with Gedo Mazo and ressurect Juubi after that failed he had an option to either ressurect Madara or to find a new and better host for rinnegan. I think Madara was just to much for Elder son to control (had his own agenda?) so he decided to manipulate with someone weaker than him.

I know these are not facts, it's just a hypothesis and something to think about. Feel free to correct me and suggest better options of who is Tobi.

you are one of the most smartest people i have met on this form yet
you really made me think

 

[siyo]

Nice thread.

I believe, hashirama did defeat madara,but not with the rinnegan active.Remember they fought several times before, so they knew about each others abilities and i think tobi even says hashirama was the strongest of his time.We have no feats from hashirama,and it wouldn't surprise me if he could do a lot more than what he showed so far.

 

[JMAN]

1. Kabuto may have given power-uped to Madara but Madara still got Susano'o, EMS, and even Rinnegan.

2. That's why I said that Edo Tensei was still just an experiment by Tobirama at that time and only his brother knew about him. He might have used this imperfect jutsus but never revealed because of the consequences of what I've said.

3. So Madara is damn good because he's an Edo now and Hashirama was good enough to beat him even if Hashirama's Edo didn't much against an old Sarutobi and even couldn't kill someone as Kakuzu.

He's overhyped in my eyes. I'm not saying he's weak - I'm just stating that he couldn't beat Madara alone. Instead of replying me with cussing words and unleashing CapsLock, try bring up some proofs that I can't really contradict.

Before we saw Madara fight , we knew he was a very strong ninja and probably the strongest uchiha but we thought Itachi could equal him but now we come to see that they are on a different level ! We haven't really seen Hashirama fight till now except Oro version of Edo but we can't base are arguments on that fight ! .

 

[Escorpiius]

Thank you very much Escorpiius for the compliments and as I said, I do like your theory A LOT. And I do agree that it would be super lame if stamina is why the 1st won, super, super LAME. The only MAIN problem I had with your theory was stating that there was no way the 1st could win without the help of someone (aka Tobi) and Madara was God-Like. I mean as someone said, anyone can beat anyone in the Narutoverse given the right circumstances and chances. I think the 1st gets way too much credit skill-wise, I mean as a leader he was second to none but skill wise we still haven't been shown to much about his skills other than when he is brought back to fight the 3rd and even then I can't really take that fight seriously because it was sooooo far backkkk and I don't think Kishi meant for Edo-Tensei to be such a big part of the story at this point if you catch what I am saying. (Pretty much back then it was just for show and to make things interesting such as OMG!!! the 3rd is about to take on the first 2 hokages this is ridiculous blah blah...but I don't think it was as strong and/or unstoppable of a Jutsu as it is right now, you know what I mean?)

I definitely think there is a possibility Madara won. Maybe even Madara let the 1st crawl back with his tail between his legs and they made a pact so that Madara could disappear and Hashirama could remain Hokage. This is why what we say are arguments/theories and we happen to make good one's other than some people who like you said claim Hashirama won just because he is a beast, that makes no sense and I would argue it like you did.

See the thing that I want to make you realize more than anything is, yes of course Madara wouldn't have been able to take out a whole Senju clan, but what in the hell makes the Senju so damn powerful to go against a battle-oriented clan like the Uchiha time and time again? This is why I said I don't think we know the full capabilities/powers of the Senju clan, let alone Hashirama their strongest member and leader. I mean there had to be some sort of power they had that allowed them to go head to head against them because most people in the Narutoverse can't even take on one STRONG Uchiha like Itachi (Actually I don't think anyone could except for maybe Madara, Pain, a couple of others). so like I said what in the hell made the Senju so powerful, its not Wood Release because that was only Hashirama's Kekkei Genkai. There is definitely something we are missing from the whole battle and the Senju clan especially. I mean think about it, every main villian in this series has wanted the either the Sharingan or had it or some other dojutsu: Orochimaru, Itachi, Madara, Pain etc... There HAS GOT TO BE something to the Senju clan that we all do not know yet that make them so damn powerful (and I don't want to hear the Will of Fire, that is just lame ;p) I think I might be Space-Time Ninjutsu's, since we know the 2nd Hokage was good and knowledgeable with them (As Minato states when fighting Tobi...), but that is just my guess ;p

So, in away we share the same thoughts. We do believe that fight wasn't exactly an ass-whooping for Madara and we also agree that Hashirama may have won lamely. In fact, we even agree that perhaps Kishi messed it up with Hashirama and now, he is a bit confused.

I have 2 ideas on Senju Clan's powers:

1). They were in larger minority and had Uzumakis along them. Thus, why they usually ended up matching the Uchihas whose most levels must be like Obito at that time, who knows?

2). There seemed to be only 2 Clans at Konoha initially. Now there are multiple clans. Perhaps, the Senju had multiple abilities like that of Nara, Yamanaka, Akimichi, Inuzuka ect... Clans Abiliies. As generations were passed on, the abilities got divided and a true combination of all power (Senju) didn't really exist. Well, just another theory, who knows? Atleast, some thing like that will atleast put Hashirama much higher in my eyes that he is right now. Teleportation seem another idea but since no one apart Minato really inherited this, I have some doubts.

And I rather leave the last parts of your posts since I've been discussing and tired discussing of Tobi's identity threads since very long. Hope you understand.

Before we saw Madara fight , we knew he was a very strong ninja and probably the strongest uchiha but we thought Itachi could equal him but now we come to see that they are on a different level ! We haven't really seen Hashirama fight till now except Oro version of Edo but we can't base are arguments on that fight ! .

So it's right to base your arguments on facts that Hashirama defeated even if that fight was never shown but it's wrong that the Edo fight of Shodaime is taken into account even if this fight was clearly shown.

Frankly, I don't follow this logic. I'll believe Hashirama's stronger when that fight is shown till then I'll rather be firm to some theories (mine and some others)