[Theory] How Hashirama defeated Madara?

[Escorpiius]

Okay, instead of making lame exclamations that "Shodaime is so beast..." just because it is said by Kishi that he defeated Madara, I'd like to bring upon a theory.

I don't really think he beat Madara single-handedly. Why?

Well, if the 1st was so OP'd, even if his Edo was 10% of him, I still think he will cause much havoc than against an old Sarutobi.

In short, I'd like to bring upon a theory of how he managed to defeat a nearly God-level Madara.

Madara had Kyuubi, Sharingan, Susano'o and even Rinnegan.

Hashirama had his wife, Mokuton and Sage's Body.

While I believe 1st could have bested Kyuubi with his Mokuton and his wife and be better than Madara in Taijutsu, Madara still is better in Genjutus (Sharingan) and Ninjutsus (Rinnegan).

Since Madara seems to know Edo-Tensei and "HIM", I'll put upon a theory.

I think Hashirama was desperate at a point in his fight against Madara. He, thus tried his last hope that was the jutsus his little brother was experimenting on - Edo Tensei.

He summoned a powerful ninja which will be Tobi. Edo Tobi helped or perhaps considerably defeated Madara but since the Edo Tensei was not perfected yet, he escaped from Hashirama's control and went rogue in his way.

Hashirama, unable to reveal that he perhpas left a monster free, chose not to reveal this secret and thus claimed nice and clean that he bested the great Madara.

In this way, it was Hashirama and Tobi who defeated the all-mighty Madara. That's why Madara knows that the only person who could be behind this is HIM - The man who is responsible for his defeat.

Also, this might be why Tobi

- Knows about Madara, his Rinnegan abilities and all his secret.
- Got control of Hashirama's body and why he says that history is not clear when it's said that Hashirama defeated Madara.

Spoiler

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I know people who think high of Hashirama won't believe it but try to think of this with a cool head.

 

[x9lb babynaruto]

Possible

 

[-God of War-]

Good theory, +rep!

I agree with you. A lot of people say that Hashirama defeated Madara by himselfe! But if Hashirama was alone it's inpossible (Madara,Kyubi, Sharingan, Rinnengan vs Hashirama?)!

He summoned a powerful ninja which will be Tobi. Edo Tobi helped or perhaps considerably defeated Madara but since the Edo Tensei was not perfected yet, he escaped from Hashirama's control and went rogue in his way.

That can be possible.

 

[Anduril]

Yes and who is this "THIS" guy?

Sage of the six paths!!!
nailed it xd

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But explain why madara knows nagato xd

 

[kisamexRocks]

Well Madara did say he awakened these eyes before his death. SO he probably did give Nagato the Rinnegan, and did all he wanted, he seem's to godlike to get defeated by Hashirama unless hashirama has some insane jutsu. But I guess madara did survive the fight and took Hashiramas cells.

 

[Anduril]

Well Madara did say he awakened these eyes before his death. SO he probably did give Nagato the Rinnegan, and did all he wanted, he seem's to godlike to get defeated by Hashirama unless hashirama has some insane jutsu. But I guess madara did survive the fight and took Hashiramas cells.

Nope madara did not gave nagato the rinnegan....

Tobi did by taking them from madara's corpse...


and so there are only two people now who could be tobi

"the sage" or "Izuna uchiha"

 

[Don Roberto]

False. Re-read the manga.

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Key words: shortly before my death , completed to beyond - what you were in your prime.

 

[EternalMangekyouRinnegan]

Nope madara did not gave nagato the rinnegan....

Tobi did by taking them from madara's corpse...


and so there are only two people now who could be tobi

"the sage" or "Izuna uchiha"

It can't be sage, that would make absolutely no sense. He doesn't even need to do anything he is a GOD to begin with. He died, that's official but there isnt anything said about death of his sons. We know they fought and the younger one won but how did it end?


Just going to drop this bomb here..

Connections between elder son and Tobi :

*believed in peace by power (moon's eye plan goes well in this category)

*got owned by younger son

*Hides his identity

*The way Kabuto and Madara reffered to him in the latest chapters points out that he was someone very strong and powerful

*His techs are beyond anything we have seen in manga

*is arrogant and threats everyone as children

*Tobi wants to become Juubi jinchuurikki, why? To continue his fathers legacy. These elder sons always try to obtain their fathers powers. It's a classic story.

*was talking to Naruto, Kakashi, Yamato about how Senju and Uchiha has always fought and it's their destiny (he witnesses it himself couple of times already)

*is a former shell of himself - either because of being owned by younger son and loosing his powers or because of being extremely old and living thanks to Zetsu

*knows everything there is to know about Rinnegan, Sharingan, SO6P, Uchiha, Senju and everything else

*talks about Madara's fight versus Hashirama as if it was his fight but he's not Madara

This starts to make sense now because Madara could very well have been apprentice of elder son. He was the one pushing Madara to doubt Hashirama and Senju (because of the hate between those clans), he was the one who pushed him to fight Hashirama (to obtain his cells?). He was the one who promised to ressurect Madara after he died. Maybe he even wanted to use Madara to synch with Gedo Mazo and ressurect Juubi after that failed he had an option to either ressurect Madara or to find a new and better host for rinnegan. I think Madara was just to much for Elder son to control (had his own agenda?) so he decided to manipulate with someone weaker than him.

I know these are not facts, it's just a hypothesis and something to think about. Feel free to correct me and suggest better options of who is Tobi.

 

[kisamexRocks]

Nope madara did not gave nagato the rinnegan....

Tobi did by taking them from madara's corpse...


and so there are only two people now who could be tobi

"the sage" or "Izuna uchiha"

Izuna is dead.

 

[EternalMangekyouRinnegan]

Izuna is dead.

So is Madara. Stop beating up that dead horse. Tobi is not Madara and everything in manga points to that. Last chapter should have even convinced the most stubborn people but I guess it's impossible until he takes of his mask...

 

[Escorpiius]

Nope madara did not gave nagato the rinnegan....

Tobi did by taking them from madara's corpse...
and so there are only two people now who could be tobi

"the sage" or "Izuna uchiha"

I too believe that Tobi is possible the Sage now. But still most likely to be Izuna.

False. Re-read the manga.

Key words: shortly before my death , completed to beyond - what you were in your prime.

Re-understand the manga.

What Kabuto meant is that he just Edo'd Madara to much more than he were in his prime. Which is, now, he have much better control over Rinnegan.

It can't be sage, that would make absolutely no sense. He doesn't even need to do anything he is a GOD to begin with. He died, that's official but there isnt anything said about death of his sons. We know they fought and the younger one won but how did it end?


Just going to drop this bomb here..

Connections between elder son and Tobi :

*believed in peace by power (moon's eye plan goes well in this category)

*got owned by younger son

*Hides his identity

*The way Kabuto and Madara reffered to him in the latest chapters points out that he was someone very strong and powerful

*His techs are beyond anything we have seen in manga

*is arrogant and threats everyone as children

*Tobi wants to become Juubi jinchuurikki, why? To continue his fathers legacy. These elder sons always try to obtain their fathers powers. It's a classic story.

*was talking to Naruto, Kakashi, Yamato about how Senju and Uchiha has always fought and it's their destiny (he witnesses it himself couple of times already)

*is a former shell of himself - either because of being owned by younger son and loosing his powers or because of being extremely old and living thanks to Zetsu

*knows everything there is to know about Rinnegan, Sharingan, SO6P, Uchiha, Senju and everything else

*talks about Madara's fight versus Hashirama as if it was his fight but he's not Madara

This starts to make sense now because Madara could very well have been apprentice of elder son. He was the one pushing Madara to doubt Hashirama and Senju (because of the hate between those clans), he was the one who pushed him to fight Hashirama (to obtain his cells?). He was the one who promised to ressurect Madara after he died. Maybe he even wanted to use Madara to synch with Gedo Mazo and ressurect Juubi after that failed he had an option to either ressurect Madara or to find a new and better host for rinnegan. I think Madara was just to much for Elder son to control (had his own agenda?) so he decided to manipulate with someone weaker than him.

I know these are not facts, it's just a hypothesis and something to think about. Feel free to correct me and suggest better options of who is Tobi.

Okay, first of all, I like your theory about it being the Sage's Elder Son. Also, if Tobi is an Edo, perhaps he could be an imperfect Edo version of the Sage which will already be ultra-badass.

And lastly to everyone -

THIS IS NOT A TOBI"S IDENTITY THREAD!​

So please, it's only about how the Fight between Hashirama and Madara went and how I believe Tobi is implicated in it. Whoever is Tobi, that doesn't really affect my theory.

 

[Facebook]

It can't be sage, that would make absolutely no sense. He doesn't even need to do anything he is a GOD to begin with. He died, that's official but there isnt anything said about death of his sons. We know they fought and the younger one won but how did it end?


Just going to drop this bomb here..

Connections between elder son and Tobi :

*believed in peace by power (moon's eye plan goes well in this category)

*got owned by younger son

*Hides his identity

*The way Kabuto and Madara reffered to him in the latest chapters points out that he was someone very strong and powerful

*His techs are beyond anything we have seen in manga

*is arrogant and threats everyone as children

*Tobi wants to become Juubi jinchuurikki, why? To continue his fathers legacy. These elder sons always try to obtain their fathers powers. It's a classic story.

*was talking to Naruto, Kakashi, Yamato about how Senju and Uchiha has always fought and it's their destiny (he witnesses it himself couple of times already)

*is a former shell of himself - either because of being owned by younger son and loosing his powers or because of being extremely old and living thanks to Zetsu

*knows everything there is to know about Rinnegan, Sharingan, SO6P, Uchiha, Senju and everything else

*talks about Madara's fight versus Hashirama as if it was his fight but he's not Madara

This starts to make sense now because Madara could very well have been apprentice of elder son. He was the one pushing Madara to doubt Hashirama and Senju (because of the hate between those clans), he was the one who pushed him to fight Hashirama (to obtain his cells?). He was the one who promised to ressurect Madara after he died. Maybe he even wanted to use Madara to synch with Gedo Mazo and ressurect Juubi after that failed he had an option to either ressurect Madara or to find a new and better host for rinnegan. I think Madara was just to much for Elder son to control (had his own agenda?) so he decided to manipulate with someone weaker than him.

I know these are not facts, it's just a hypothesis and something to think about. Feel free to correct me and suggest better options of who is Tobi.

Possible Madara got me screaming when he first showed his Speed, then the Fire Jutsu was like Woah! I was like Madara will dominate Itachi... Then Susanoo, I was like nah! He has Susanoo he must have Amteratsu and Tskuyomi... Then I seen the Rinnegan and was like WTF!
Now when I see Hashirama, I say there is no way Hashirama fought Madara and won even if Madara had no Rinnegan... Madara's speed is incredible...

 

[Escorpiius]

Possible Madara got me screaming when he first showed his Speed, then the Fire Jutsu was like Woah! I was like Madara will dominate Itachi... Then Susanoo, I was like nah! He has Susanoo he must have Amteratsu and Tskuyomi... Then I seen the Rinnegan and was like WTF!
Now when I see Hashirama, I say there is no way Hashirama fought Madara and won even if Madara had no Rinnegan... Madara's speed is incredible...

:| It's pretty clear to me too that Hashirama did beat Madara but not one-on-one and not in a fair combat. He had help and the only help, that could have been sufficient to influence a battle between 2 heavy hitters like Hashirama and Madara, may come in the form of Tobi (Whoever he is)

 

[-Liquid Cefka-]

+Rep. I didnt think Hashi beat Madara head-up either. Looking at his abilities, Hashi could'nt have done it "just like that". But everyone jumped to the Hashirama band wagon so quickly, they didnt realise that there could've been a hidden factor.

 

[Escorpiius]

+Rep. I didnt think Hashi beat Madara head-up either. Looking at his abilities, Hashi could'nt have done it "just like that". But everyone jumped to the Hashirama band wagon so quickly, they didnt realise that there could've been a hidden factor.

Yep, I agree. In fact, no one tries to think it the other way round despite that eve Tobi states that in someway that history doesn't righfully state who won the fight between Hashirama and Madara.

 

[EternalMangekyouRinnegan]

Yep, I agree. In fact, no one tries to think it the other way round despite that eve Tobi states that in someway that history doesn't righfully state who won the fight between Hashirama and Madara.

No, the thing is - Tobi was never on Hashiramas side. He says - "Hashirama defeated me but the true victor came out the one who thought ahead" (just before he killed of Konan). That's just one reference but there's alot more and in all of them he's leaning towards Madaras side and not Hashis.

Another thing, Tobi is not and Edo Tensei summon. He is a living creature and his body is like of Zetsus. If he as Edo Tensei he wouldn't need to dodge attacks in first place. It's a nice theory tho.

 

[Mr Byte]

ANd You Guys Are Oblivious to the fact that Madara said he Awakened his Rinnegan after his fight with Hashirama

 

[Escorpiius]

No, the thing is - Tobi was never on Hashiramas side. He says - "Hashirama defeated me but the true victor came out the one who thought ahead" (just before he killed of Konan). That's just one reference but there's alot more and in all of them he's leaning towards Madaras side and not Hashis.

Another thing, Tobi is not and Edo Tensei summon. He is a living creature and his body is like of Zetsus. If he as Edo Tensei he wouldn't need to dodge attacks in first place. It's a nice theory tho.

Yeah but he was saying that against Konan, he was still claiming to be Madara. Now we know he's not Madara. So, perhaps is reference is more a hint of saying to Konan that he's the one who knows the truth behind that epic battle.

And about Tobi being Edo, well, perhaps, he just made use of Zetsu to increase his power later on. Originally, it won't surprise me if he's an Edo. The fact that he knows so many things from the past mostly, perhaps leads to his existence in the past at some time.

It's just my theory. I agree with your points which contradicts me but I don't see mine as impossible despite your arguments.

ANd You Guys Are Oblivious to the fact that Madara said he Awakened his Rinnegan after his fight with Hashirama

And tell me how Madara died?

Until proven otherwise, he still succumbs during his battle against the 1st and stating that he awakened the Rinnegan just before his death, surely meant that he did it just before the battle's ending.

 

[Elmage G Ace]

It's possible, but I don't think tobi is an edo tensei cos during his confrontation with danzo's guards, the bugs infected his hands and he broke them off

 

[Escorpiius]

It's possible, but I don't think tobi is an edo tensei cos during his confrontation with danzo's guards, the bugs infected his hands and he broke them off

But by-then, he might have gotten some Zetsu powering-up.

See how Naruto is beating the heck of Zetsus with Rasengans and see how Tobi regenerated from Minato's Rasengan.

It seems more like Edo Tensei regeneration a bit than Zetsu's.

But I respect your argument cause' I can't bring any concrete proof that Tobi is an Edo, just like you can't bring something exact that he is for sure not an Edo due to his mask and gloves ect...