How does Hiruzen actually defeat Kakashi?

[Gold Lightning]

Kakashi is no match for Hiruzen it's as simple as that. You guys are seriously crazy.

Nice points, your post is very well thought out and logical.

they both suck,hiruzen couldn't kill orochimaru when sasuke did with ease,and kakashi is crap

Orochimaru was sick and weakened when sasuke defeated him.

 

[Hokage Sharingan Kakashi]

So first of all let me start by saying that before I joined this forum I never even thought Hiruzen is all that. I knew he was good (he was Hokage so of course he was reallt good) but I never saw him as top 10 or even 20 material. However for some reason people at NB seem to think he is like God tier or something. At first I thought it was a joke but no people actually believe he is greater than Madara, Nagato, Itachi, Sasuke, Minato and even So6P (no joke ). I've even some people think he could've stopped tobi the day the nine tails attacked. I just can't understand it. I personally feel Guy would take him, I mean this isn't part 1 anymore, so many shinobi have surpassed him IMO.

Anyway just needed to get that out of the way, now back on topic. Now before any fan boys start, I'm referring to the Hiruzen we have all seen fight, not prime, not hype cuz as far as I'm concerned that Hiruzen doesn't exist. Oh what the hell, so hiruzen fan boys don't cry you can use prime hiruzen if you want. I still don't see how Kakashi will lose.

In part 1 Hiruzen would have taken down Kakashi for sure, low-mid diff. But now from what I've seen from current kakashi I don't think its possible. Hiruzen uses fire and earth style jutsu, kakashi also uses earth and fire (I think). Even if kakashi doesn't technically have fire he has powerful water jutsu that can counter hiruzen's fire jutsu. Kakashi used lightning which also overcomes hiruzens earth. Some may say but "oh, hiruzen has mastered all jutsu of hidden leaf, so what - kakashi has over 1000 jutsu copied world wide. So in terms of ninjutsu kakashi clearly wins right.

Hiruzen was called the professer so I'm guessing he's incredibly smart, same goes for kakashi since he's regarded as a genius. From what I've seen Kakshi has more tactical strategic thinking in battle. Hiruzen may have more intellegence but I feel kakashi would outsmart him in a fight.

In terms of speed, you have to be stupid to say Hiruzen, I doubt prime hiruzen is faster than kakashi either. No matter how fast hiruzen may have been, kakashi's sharingan will always give him the advantage since he can read any of hiruzens movements.

I don't even think Kakashi needs Kamui to win this, Kakashi's abilities olone suggest to me that he would win in a battle to the death.

This is just my thoughts though, feel free to tell me otherwise but no fanboyish arguments such as because hiruzen is god of shinobi he will win (BS!!).

IMO
Kakashi's feats > Hiruzen hype

 

[Joon]

Please don't overrate Hiruzen, crappy opinions like that mean nothing to me, no logic, no analysis, no nothing. You basically just told me Kakashi is an acadamy student in front of current Kakashi, the same Kakashi who's currently taking on Tobi. Plz, pls, pls STFU!!!!

Anyone who tries to justify Hiruzens abilities with hype/prime will just be ignored. It is a stupid pointless form of argument, it's basically just a what if statement.

And why do people think Enma is invincible, he can be hurt even in rod mode. If Kakashi electrocutes him or uses raikiri it will obviously do some damage.

Plus I never meant Kakashi's Sharingan will give him an edge against all opponents. What I was saying is that combined with his speed and taijutsu he will be dificult to match in close combat. He took on Hidan, And 3 hearts of Kakuzu at the same time nd he dodged pretty much all their attacks. Sarutobi and Enma will not overwhelm Kakashi as easily as some think.

Your Thread, your opinion. My comment, my opinion. You yourself used "Assumption" instead of "Logic." [Bold] You also "Hyped" Kakashi, making claims of his battles that are irrelevant to this one. [Underline] Fact are facts, and Hurizen's "Hype" was fact supported by both the Manga and data-book, prime or not. @EliteKakashi I fully understand what Hype is. Members or some Manga reader misinterpret every "Hype" present within the Manga. I admit at one point that I was also guilty of it, but I read portions of the correct Translation. Also, you seem to overrate Kakashi's characters based of key battles which in all where he fought foes using teamwork.

 

[EliteKakashi]

Your Thread, your opinion. My comment, my opinion. You yourself used "Assumption" instead of "Logic." [Bold] You also "Hyped" Kakashi, making claims of his battles that are irrelevant to this one. [Underline] Fact are facts, and Hurizen's "Hype" was fact supported by both the Manga and data-book, prime or not. @EliteKakashi I fully understand what Hype is. Members or some Manga reader misinterpret every "Hype" present within the Manga. I admit at one point that I was also guilty of it, but I read portions of the correct Translation. Also, you seem to overrate Kakashi's characters based of key battles which in all where he fought foes using teamwork.

Hype is a statement not backed up with feats, in terms of what Naruto fans in general use it for. Hiruzen's prime self has no feats, therefor is all hype at this point. No one is calling it false hype(well..I'm not, anyway), just the fact that it is hype. Hiruzen is one of my favorite characters in the series, but it is impossible to debate for a character just going off what others have said about him, especially when it's just naming the character, not stating feats he actually accomplished..all we're getting is that he was good enough to get those nicknames, not WHY he got them.

Kakashi's fight vs Asura and Deva was mostly without help. He had Deva and Asura beat prior to his backup arriving and ruining his plan, as I explained earlier in this thread:

Kakashi had Deva and Asura beat before the backup showed up. Kakashi had Asura Path stunned with his raiton kagebunshin, and had a raikiri ready to take out Deva Path. Deva Path was on his 5 second interval as he had just finished using it. We've seen countless times in this series that Kakashi is capable of fooling and sneaking up on anybody. Him managing to catch Kakuzu off guard, a person whose battle experience was unmatched in this series, proves that point the best, IMO.

Deva had no clue where he was at and Asura wouldn't have been able to save him, it was game over at that point for the two paths. He even stated when Chouza and Chouji showed up, that he was happy BECAUSE he was going to be able to reserve chakra(as the village was under attack by more than just those two, he knew that), and stated he had a plan in place.

No, he wouldn't have beaten a Deva Path who went all out(as in Deva didn't use chibaku tensei, massive scale shinra tensei, etc), but he outsmarted and had the 2 paths beat in that situation none the less.

 

[bigmoose21]

from what we have seen the logical choice would be kakashi. However, there are so many question about hiruzen in his prime. Orochimaru said himself that Hiruzen could use every jutsu that existed in the leaf, and was shocked at how weak Hiruzen seemed during their fight..... Hiruzen showed us literally none of those techniques and still defeated the 1st, 2nd and Took Oros Arms.

I would like to say Hiruzen is my choice, but i just can not do it because i have not seen enough to say he would beat Kakashi where he is at now.

 

[bigmoose21]

from what we have seen the logical choice would be kakashi. However, there are so many question about hiruzen in his prime. Orochimaru said himself that Hiruzen could use every jutsu that existed in the leaf, and was shocked at how weak Hiruzen seemed during their fight..... Hiruzen showed us literally none of those techniques and still defeated the 1st, 2nd and Took Oros Arms.

I would like to say Hiruzen is my choice, but i just can not do it because i have not seen enough to say he would beat Kakashi where he is at now.

 

[HiddenWarrior]

Prime Hiruzen >=Hashi
Prime Hiruzen > Madara EMS

nuff said.

Comedian ..

 

[Joon]

Hype is a statement not backed up with feats, in terms of what Naruto fans in general use it for. Hiruzen's prime self has no feats, therefor is all hype at this point. No one is calling it false hype(well..I'm not, anyway), just the fact that it is hype. Hiruzen is one of my favorite characters in the series, but it is impossible to debate for a character just going off what others have said about him, especially when it's just naming the character, not stating feats he actually accomplished..all we're getting is that he was good enough to get those nicknames, not WHY he got them.

Kakashi's fight vs Asura and Deva was mostly without help. He had Deva and Asura beat prior to his backup arriving and ruining his plan, as I explained earlier in this thread:

I forgot what "Hype" means, but its whatever. We, or some, can't determine "Feats" of Hurizen because he was not shown as much as Kakashi; so every thing "Kakashi has shown in this battle here..." and/or he could do this here...," etc. is of course proves far Superior than Hurizen who was shown little. I say otherwise based off other stuff. This whole thread is Opinion and Assumption.

 

[minatofan234]

hiruzin was able to take out the 1st and 2nd and orochimaru witch current current kakashi cant do he cant even take out orochimaru and that was just old hiruzin his power would be about 5 times as much old hiruzin might be able to take out current kakashi but saying prime hiruzin cant thats just going to far hiruzin was called the professor and god of shinobi his hype by itself will blow up kakashi the 1st and 2nd hokages trained hiruzen to become the strongest hokage to bring peace and stop the war witch he did hiruzin has more battle experience than kakashi so dont even say that he will out smart hiruzin so what if kakashi knows a thousand jutsus hiruzin knows all the jutsu from the hidden leaf village thats about tens of thousand jutsus dont even get me started with hiruzins summonings the only chance kakashi has if he is fighting old hiruzin but prime would just snap his fingers and kakashi would blow up to oblivion

 

[Talal]

This is stupid, yes we can't say how Hiruzen would win. I can't tell you how the Sage would beat Kakashi because we haven't seen them do anything. I want you to just think about this, Hiruzen was the Hokage for so many years and Konoha remained the top village during his time. He was considered the strongest Hokage by many people even with someone like Hashirama being under that list. Orochimaru (who scared Kakashi shitless) said that if Hiruzen was 10 years younger he wouldn't have been able to win. With all due respect to Kakashi, I really doubt that he would beat the old Hiruzen let alone the young one.

 

[Leoj of the Teinken]

Actually, he has stated before many times that Hiruzen could use 1000 genjutsu.


And that's the VIZ translation. Not 1000 jutsu, illusions. As in gentjutsu. It's not his speculation, it's his analyzation of the manga.

As for the topic at hand, there are many factors handicapping Hiruzen, but I can't think of any that handicap Kakashi. Being past his prime(anyone past their prime aren't as strong as they were during their prime, that's common knowledge), part 1/part 2 powerscaling, and his poor performance during the fight between him and Orochimaru. He was not only weakened physically, but held back emotionally, not wanting to kill his student. The main thing to remember is that this is a thread that--while not intentionally--will ultimately underrate Hiruzen, seeing as how the OP is questioning his abilities against Kakashi. Any thread as such will generate "Hiruzen haters" who underrate him to an extreme level. Likewise, any thread overrating Hiruzen will bring "Hiruzen fanboys" claiming that Hiruzen can arguably be a match for the Rikudo Sennin. In my opinion, it's hard to judge which is stronger from what we've seen of Hiruzen. They're the same archetypal character with very similar aspects. What Hiruzen lacks with the Sharingan he makes up for with his extremely quick learning, presumably from being a Sarutobi. Although, Enma gives Hirzuen the edge. For those who ask about Kakashi using Raikiri on Enma in staff form, they seem forget that Enma is as hard a diamond in that form. "If lightning strikes a diamond deposit it would be the virtually the same as lightning striking the ground. As for the diamond itself nothing would occur, it has a 10 on the hardness scale and also the hardest mineral known to man." Given that, coupled with Hiruzen's advanced compatability with Enma, I'd say Hiruzen would win.

WOW. You really shut me up now. lol I mean, seriously, bro. I never would've tooken Hiruzen as one of the strongest characters. Thanks to you, I will no longer underrate Hiruzen nor overrate him based on hype, but by proof. Now I think Kakashi Hatake at his current level could still take Hiruzen at his old age because of Kamui, but could go either way. I'm glad you provided proof, and I'm glad you enlightened me. +Rep Even though I don't what that is, but if I did, I would plus rep you.

 

[BloodSeed]

i agree but bad example kisame>guy(he didnt have samehada in his fight) a better example would be how kakashi occording to the databook is much stronger than guy when there likely even or tied.

guy didnt use his chaku!

 

[minatofan234]

WOW. You really shut me up now. lol I mean, seriously, bro. I never would've tooken Hiruzen as one of the strongest characters. Thanks to you, I will no longer underrate Hiruzen nor overrate him based on hype, but by proof. Now I think Kakashi Hatake at his current level could still take Hiruzen at his old age because of Kamui, but could go either way. I'm glad you provided proof, and I'm glad you enlightened me. +Rep Even though I don't what that is, but if I did, I would plus rep you.

clivk on the green flag near the post and it says add rep or decrease rep to +rep click on add rep to -rep click on the other one

 

[VongolaX]

kakashi ewith kamui could beat him

 

[Simplified]

He knows every jutsu in Konoha. He can easily counter Kakashi's lightning style, and if it's an old Hiruzen we are talking about, Kamui could be trouble.

Hiruzen has so much hype, but there is a reason.

 

[Whalelord]

Neither Deidara or Sasori said, or showed at any point that they were tired/exhausted. Pretty baseless argument you have there. Not sure why Kakashi being exhausted after using kamui 3 times at that point matters, but I haven't kept up with the debate completely.



Kakashi used more than half of his chakra defending Shikamaru, Chouji and Ino. When he eventually got to fight Kakuzu 1v1, he stood no chance...At that point and time, even if he had been 100% I don't think he could beat Kakuzu, but regardless, it was obvious he was running dry on chakra. Noted by the fact that he stated if he had to use kamui to take out Kakuzu, he would have been in the hospital, as it would have took what little chakra he had left.



Kakashi had Deva and Asura beat before the backup showed up. Kakashi had Asura Path stunned with his raiton kagebunshin, and had a raikiri ready to take out Deva Path. Deva Path was on his 5 second interval as he had just finished using it. We've seen countless times in this series that Kakashi is capable of fooling and sneaking up on anybody. Him managing to catch Kakuzu off guard, a person whose battle experience was unmatched in this series, proves that point the best, IMO.

Deva had no clue where he was at and Asura wouldn't have been able to save him, it was game over at that point for the two paths. He even stated when Chouza and Chouji showed up, that he was happy BECAUSE he was going to be able to reserve chakra(as the village was under attack by more than just those two, he knew that), and stated he had a plan in place.

No, he wouldn't have beaten a Deva Path who went all out(as in Deva didn't use chibaku tensei, massive scale shinra tensei, etc), but he outsmarted and had the 2 paths beat in that situation none the less.

The reason i brought the deal of the deidara being tired is because that other kakashi fan boy brought up the excuse of kakashi being tired when fightning kakuzu , Are we honestly reading the same manga ? Kakashi himself said he couldn't beat them 2 if he fought them alone.

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You fan boys make up anytype of excuses i swear :sy:

 

[EliteKakashi]

The reason i brought the deal of the deidara being tired is because that other kakashi fan boy brought up the excuse of kakashi being tired when fightning kakuzu , Are we honestly reading the same manga ? Kakashi himself said he couldn't beat them 2 if he fought them alone.

You must be registered for see images

You fan boys make up anytype of excuses i swear :sy:

Spoiler

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As Kakashi said there, he was prepared for it. And he even states he's happy that they showed up because he can now reserve his chakra. Deva Path had no clue where Kakashi was, either. He was going to use raikiri to take out Deva(given Deva was on his interval), that's noted by the fact that he has a raikiri ready in his hand when Chouza and Chouji show up.

After that, he would be free to take care of Asura. Deva had no way of winning that altercation, though, having no idea where Kakashi was, and Kakashi already having a plan in place.

I love it when people start resorting to personal insults. Shows you've lost this "debate"(which it wasn't, because I've completely schooled you, and you've done nothing in any way to prove me wrong).

 

[Owarij]

*sigh* I can see what you meant by overrating, OP. "1000 Genjutsu"? That is laughable feat that I would like to see proof of. Saying he alone had 1000 genjutsu wouldn't be logical because, seriously? Hiruzen wasn't know for any of that, and you saying that, makes it seem like you're speculating. Please, just stop the trolling. I mean, come on, all you Hiruzen fanboys are doing this out of hype. Don't get me wrong Hiruzen was strong but I would like to see his prime in action, and him taking EMS Madara's Susano'o or Hashi's wood style. Let's all be logical. Oh, and I'm sure Kakashi has proven himself to being able to beat Hiruzen from what he's shown so far.

In the beginning of the manga, alot of people may have missed it, But it was stated that the old many knew over 1000 jutsu... kakashi was the 2nd person to be known to have that kind of arsenal.... We then learned that he mastered over 1000 genjutsu alone... which speaks volumes of what he was capable of..

His databook stats speak for themselves.. being one of the only if not THE only person thus far to have full 5's in gen , tai , nin , Seals... the others were reduced due to his old age..
Making prime Hiruzen most likely have full 5 stats in prime state..

I'm not even going to argue on whether prime hiruzen defeats Kakashi, when kakashi still questions whether he can beat orochimaru

 

[Gold Lightning]

The reason i brought the deal of the deidara being tired is because that other kakashi fan boy brought up the excuse of kakashi being tired when fightning kakuzu , Are we honestly reading the same manga ? Kakashi himself said he couldn't beat them 2 if he fought them alone.

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You fan boys make up anytype of excuses i swear :sy:

I'm not a fan boy, I didn't lie and make up excuses for Kakashi. What I said is genuinely true, Kakashi was beat up and exhausted. He defended team Ino-Shika-Cho half the time he was fighting. They would've all been dead before the fight even started. I admit Shikamaru did his part but without Kakashi he would've died.

I don't know why you are so bitter towards Kakashi, people like you with rubbish, false arguments use the term fan boy when you can't come up with a valid reply. I don't have to listen to your bull crap but I just find it funny that you cannot accept that I was stating a fact and were just so ignorant that you had to make up your own lie of Deidara being tired just because you didn't agree with my statement (when Deidara clearly wasn't). Pathetic.

 

[Talal]

I'm not a fan boy, I didn't lie and make up excuses for Kakashi. What I said is genuinely true, Kakashi was beat up and exhausted. He defended team Ino-Shika-Cho half the time he was fighting. They would've all been dead before the fight even started. I admit Shikamaru did his part but without Kakashi he would've died.

I don't know why you are so bitter towards Kakashi, people like you with rubbish, false arguments use the term fan boy when you can't come up with a valid reply. I don't have to listen to your bull crap but I just find it funny that you cannot accept that I was stating a fact and were just so ignorant that you had to make up your own lie of Deidara being tired just because you didn't agree with my statement (when Deidara clearly wasn't). Pathetic.

You might disagree, but I actually don't see him being exhausted as an excuse for not doing well. Most (if not all) high ranked shinobi wouldn't have been tired doing what Kakashi did, especially not Kages. Lack of stamina might be the only prominent weakness that Kakashi has which will show when he's fighting someone like the Third Hokage.