How does Hiruzen actually defeat Kakashi?

[EliteKakashi]

My argument is stupid or more like your logic

Deidara stay up 3 days and 3 nights sealing the 1 tailed into the gedo statue you dont think he was tired even while fightning sand ninja's and the kazekage? Kakashi was in hospital because of chakra exhaustion, he was still getting the hang of kamui. The reason he used it was because he had no other way to get out of the explosion path.

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Neither Deidara or Sasori said, or showed at any point that they were tired/exhausted. Pretty baseless argument you have there. Not sure why Kakashi being exhausted after using kamui 3 times at that point matters, but I haven't kept up with the debate completely.

Your saying Kakashi was tired then what were Hidan & Kakazu they fought with asuma & shikamaru Etc then had to stay up 6 days 6 nights sealing the 2 tails & 3 tails into the gedo statue then to being ambushed right again.

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Kakashi began fightning kakuzu on his own at a point and time quit the bullshit it was a team effort at that point but when Shikamaru saves kakashi now all of a sudden it isn't mention

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Kakashi used more than half of his chakra defending Shikamaru, Chouji and Ino. When he eventually got to fight Kakuzu 1v1, he stood no chance...At that point and time, even if he had been 100% I don't think he could beat Kakuzu, but regardless, it was obvious he was running dry on chakra. Noted by the fact that he stated if he had to use kamui to take out Kakuzu, he would have been in the hospital, as it would have took what little chakra he had left.

Deva & Asura became 2 against 8 and still lost :sy: Kakashi never solo'd no No kage level ninja on his own

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Kakashi fanboys

Kakashi had Deva and Asura beat before the backup showed up. Kakashi had Asura Path stunned with his raiton kagebunshin, and had a raikiri ready to take out Deva Path. Deva Path was on his 5 second interval as he had just finished using it. We've seen countless times in this series that Kakashi is capable of fooling and sneaking up on anybody. Him managing to catch Kakuzu off guard, a person whose battle experience was unmatched in this series, proves that point the best, IMO.

Deva had no clue where he was at and Asura wouldn't have been able to save him, it was game over at that point for the two paths. He even stated when Chouza and Chouji showed up, that he was happy BECAUSE he was going to be able to reserve chakra(as the village was under attack by more than just those two, he knew that), and stated he had a plan in place.

No, he wouldn't have beaten a Deva Path who went all out(as in Deva didn't use chibaku tensei, massive scale shinra tensei, etc), but he outsmarted and had the 2 paths beat in that situation none the less.

 

[Q of the Sharingan]

The only way Kakashi can win is if he uses Kamui. If he was smart he'd use it from the very start. Hiruzen would summon Enma from the beginning and the versatility that Enma's staff form gives him would overwhelm Kakashi. Hiruzen is very proficient in taijutsu and the fact that Enma can attack even in staff form gives Kakashi no chance in close quarters. I don't think that Lightning Blade can pierce Enma's staff form. Hiruzen's earth jutsus stop Kakashi's water while Kakashi's water stops Hiruzens fire but I think Hiruzen has higher level jutsus in both cases. Like I said in the beginning, Kakashi only wins with Kamui.

 

[Joon]

Hurizen "Hype" is not "Hype," it is fact. It is stated in both, the Manga and Data-book. Why people say that, I do not know. The Third Hokage, Hurizen, has experience and is a Kage. Kakashi is Jounin. He has many expressive feats that seems Kage level, but he is not. That is fact and will always be fact. In my opinion, Kakashi would give a good battle, impressing Hurizen because of his Sharingan, but Hurizen, who is at old age, would still look at him as a child learning at the Ninja Academy compared to his skills and experience as a Shinobi.

Also, since you don't feel Hurizen could defeat Kakashi, than that is your opinion.

 

[ThtOneGuy]

getting higher score on a databook doesnt mean you are stronger than somebody. that databook was limited to 5. some got 5 in speed and people who is more faster than you will also get 5 since max is 5. kurenai genjutsu was 5, itachi got 5 when he should be 8-10.
we cant go for databook stats to see whos stronger.

EXAMPLE.

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GOT 32.5

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GOT 31.5

i agree but bad example kisame>guy(he didnt have samehada in his fight) a better example would be how kakashi occording to the databook is much stronger than guy when there likely even or tied.

 

[EliteKakashi]

Hurizen "Hype" is not "Hype," it is fact. It is stated in both, the Manga and Data-book. Why people say that, I do not know. The Third Hokage, Hurizen, has experience and is a Kage. Kakashi is Jounin. He has many expressive feats that seems Kage level, but he is not. That is fact and will always be fact. In my opinion, Kakashi would give a good battle, impressing Hurizen because of his Sharingan, but Hurizen, who is at old age, would still look at him as a child learning at the Ninja Academy compared to his skills and experience as a Shinobi.

Also, since you don't feel Hurizen could defeat Kakashi, than that is your opinion.

I don't think you quite understand the definition of hype.

And people such as Jiraiya, Shikaku and Tsunade have all deemed Kakashi as worthy of becoming Hokage/kage level. Him being kage level is not something that is deniable, especially not after the fight vs Asura and Deva path, plus what he's done in this war. He's surpassed Old Hiruzen at this point, basing off what Hiruzen did in his fight.

 

[gordo1]

He wins with his hype. And massive array of techniques.

 

[yuan of cruxis]

Well Hashirama was considered strongest of his era.
Tobirama is a incredible master suiton user
Orochimaru one of the Sannin, whom is capable of taking on Jiraiya and Tsunade, plus he was a former Akatsuki member.

Now Hiruzen took on all three of these guys, and took down both Senju bros, left Orochimaru highly injured before he actually died.
And he did all of this with less than 5 jutsus
That along makes him boss
Hiruzen was already said to have 1000 Ninjutsu and 1000 Genjutsus (More than Kakashi's arsenal)
Hes a Taijutsu master along with his summon.
Kakashi doubted he could take on one of these guys(Orochimaru)

However currently I can see Kakashi beat Orochimaru.

The Sharingan doesnt make you better all around in Taijutsu, look what happen to Kakashi when he had that Taijutsu battle against Kakazu. Kakazu was owning him. Or Lee vs Sasuke, or Sasuke vs Bee.

Hiruzen is top dog believe it or not

 

[Hattake Ryuzaki]

kakashi is my fav character but hiruzen beats kakashi :sy: some of you people .....just wow

 

[AngryRock]

Well Hashirama was considered strongest of his era.
Tobirama is a incredible master suiton user
Orochimaru one of the Sannin, whom is capable of taking on Jiraiya and Tsunade, plus he was a former Akatsuki member.

Now Hiruzen took on all three of these guys, and took down both Senju bros, left Orochimaru highly injured before he actually died.
And he did all of this with less than 5 jutsus
That along makes him boss
Hiruzen was already said to have 1000 Ninjutsu and 1000 Genjutsus (More than Kakashi's arsenal)
Hes a Taijutsu master along with his summon.
Kakashi doubted he could take on one of these guys(Orochimaru)

However currently I can see Kakashi beat Orochimaru.

The Sharingan doesnt make you better all around in Taijutsu, look what happen to Kakashi when he had that Taijutsu battle against Kakazu. Kakazu was owning him. Or Lee vs Sasuke, or Sasuke vs Bee.

Hiruzen is top dog believe it or not

Senju bro's were not using all of their powers because of Oro. If Kabuto summoned them then they would of wrecked Hiruzen even more.

 

[leggomynecro]

How does Hiruzen actually defeat Kakashi?

He doesn't because they have never fought. Don't you kids get tired of posting

dream match ups that have NEVER occurred. Better yet don't you all get tired

of seeing speculation/assumption based character strength. There has NEVER

been a "prime" Hiruzen. Now, WTF is the point of useless threads like this?

 

[Bogard]

I think they were around the same level without kamui except in stamina where Kakashi has advantage since Hiruzen was old and couldn't make KB that easily, but now i think Kamui has put Kakashi on a higher level

 

[Dr Dark Knight]

He aint over rated. his fanboys' comments make him look over-rated. nobody outside the base even thinks of him as some entity.

 

[Gold Lightning]

Hurizen "Hype" is not "Hype," it is fact. It is stated in both, the Manga and Data-book. Why people say that, I do not know. The Third Hokage, Hurizen, has experience and is a Kage. Kakashi is Jounin. He has many expressive feats that seems Kage level, but he is not. That is fact and will always be fact. In my opinion, Kakashi would give a good battle, impressing Hurizen because of his Sharingan, but Hurizen, who is at old age, would still look at him as a child learning at the Ninja Academy compared to his skills and experience as a Shinobi.

Also, since you don't feel Hurizen could defeat Kakashi, than that is your opinion.

Please don't overrate Hiruzen, crappy opinions like that mean nothing to me, no logic, no analysis, no nothing. You basically just told me Kakashi is an acadamy student in front of current Kakashi, the same Kakashi who's currently taking on Tobi. Plz, pls, pls STFU!!!!

Anyone who tries to justify Hiruzens abilities with hype/prime will just be ignored. It is a stupid pointless form of argument, it's basically just a what if statement.

And why do people think Enma is invincible, he can be hurt even in rod mode. If Kakashi electrocutes him or uses raikiri it will obviously do some damage.

Plus I never meant Kakashi's Sharingan will give him an edge against all opponents. What I was saying is that combined with his speed and taijutsu he will be dificult to match in close combat. He took on Hidan, And 3 hearts of Kakuzu at the same time nd he dodged pretty much all their attacks. Sarutobi and Enma will not overwhelm Kakashi as easily as some think.

 

[MickNerks]

I read a post from earlier and someone made a GREAT point. Danzo and Hiruzen were rivals and danzo admitted that hiruzen was stronger than him. That leads me to believe that Hiruzen could have beaten danzo IF he would have made it to Part 2. Hiruzen was not a push over and it was also said that when he has Emna he is basically invisible, as see when he DEAFEATED OROCHIMARU AND PAST HOKAGES. This thread is an underestimation of the 3rd hokage. IMO he can beat Kakashi. Kumui wont help him if he can SEE hiruzen.

 

[SuperFlyzzED]

I read a post from earlier and someone made a GREAT point. Danzo and Hiruzen were rivals and danzo admitted that hiruzen was stronger than him. That leads me to believe that Hiruzen could have beaten danzo IF he would have made it to Part 2. Hiruzen was not a push over and it was also said that when he has Emna he is basically invisible, as see when he DEAFEATED OROCHIMARU AND PAST HOKAGES. This thread is an underestimation of the 3rd hokage. IMO he can beat Kakashi. Kumui wont help him if he can SEE hiruzen.

Danzo was so weak compare to Hiruzen. He managed to get that power because of Orochimaru, Uchiha's, and Senju cells.

 

[Leoj of the Teinken]

No counter that you know... For all you know he has a jutsu that can cover the battlefield in smoke/fog

Or maybe he even knows his master's just bringer of darkness.. Given his reputation, he was stated to be a master of genjutsu and has over 1000 of them...

Based on the two /three jutsu we've seen he can't win..
But his hype given by enma, oro etc indicated he was nothing like that in his prime


What? when kakashi is mentioned his jutsu number is only about 1000 and over..

hiruzen has 1000 genjutsu's alone..
And 5's in both nin , gen and tai... something kakashi doesn't have..

*sigh* I can see what you meant by overrating, OP. "1000 Genjutsu"? That is laughable feat that I would like to see proof of. Saying he alone had 1000 genjutsu wouldn't be logical because, seriously? Hiruzen wasn't know for any of that, and you saying that, makes it seem like you're speculating. Please, just stop the trolling. I mean, come on, all you Hiruzen fanboys are doing this out of hype. Don't get me wrong Hiruzen was strong but I would like to see his prime in action, and him taking EMS Madara's Susano'o or Hashi's wood style. Let's all be logical. Oh, and I'm sure Kakashi has proven himself to being able to beat Hiruzen from what he's shown so far.

 

[Saiyan Kammy]

Kakashi is no match for Hiruzen it's as simple as that. You guys are seriously crazy.

 

[The path of sasuke]

they both suck,hiruzen couldn't kill orochimaru when sasuke did with ease,and kakashi is crap

 

[Rorschach]

Let's be honest here.. he's good! there's no doubt about it, but I dunno about the whole defeating kakashi part. Hiruzen sarutobi was pretty strong( let's not say, oh he became hokage so he must me strong, please, we all saw Danzou's memory, Tobirama Senju probably choose him because he had the will of fire, not because he was stronger than danzou or that Uchiha guy that looked preety badass, so his status as Hokage is overrated) he's got earth, fire & the monkey summoning jutsu (let's not forget the dead demon thingy) so far, that's all we have seen and he was impressive, even if he got beat down by his masters and predecessors (Hashirama with the whole wood and bijuu strength crap and Tobirama who mastered water to the final level) he still defeated them... and Orochimaru (kinda) and we all know how strong orochimaru is (This is from Narutopedia "Even Kakashi, one of Konoha's greatest shinobi, was filled with tremendous fear when he met him during the Chūnin Exams, and himself admitted that he wouldn't even stand a chance against his power"). apart from the dead demon thingy, none of Hiruzen's jutsu's tire him out badly.



Then.........



There's Kakashi. I dont need to explain anything about Kakashi, fanboys can do that on their own, but we all know Kakashi's very good, even for a jounin. please, f*ck the b*llsh*t about 1000 techniques. These are the only known techniques of Kakashi so we're sticking to them

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Chidori
Demonic Illusion: Hell Viewing Technique
Earth Release: Double Suicide Decapitation Technique
Earth Release: Earth-Style Wall
Earth Release: Hiding Like a Mole Technique
Eight Gates
Evil Sealing Method
Eye Mind Reading (Anime only)
Fire Release: Great Fireball Technique (Anime only)
Front Lotus (Anime only)
Genjutsu: Sharingan
Hiding in Mist Technique (Anime only)
Kamui
Lightning Beast Running Technique
Lightning Cutter
Lightning Release Shadow Clone
Lightning Transmission (Manga only)
Multiple Shadow Clone Technique
One Thousand Years of Death
Rasengan
Shadow Clone Technique
Shadow of the Dancing Leaf (Anime only)
Silent Killing
Strong Fist (Anime only)
Summoning Technique (Ninken)
Summoning: Earth Release: Tracking Fang Technique
Water Clone Technique
Water Release: Great Waterfall Technique
Water Release: Water Dragon Bullet Technique
Water Release: Water Encampment Wall
Water Release: Water Shark Bullet Technique

That's about 25! xD (hehehehe, 1000 for reals?)
Kakashi's smart, quick, a genius and has the freaking sharingan with MS! can he defeat Hiruzen? No, not likely. they'll probably be evenly matched, since we know Kakashi can't fight orochimaru ( Orochimaru faced a 4-tailed Naruto Kakashi was scared of just 3 tails and had to seal him). Plus, most of kakashi's win are usually round two wins (after his sharingan has adjusted)

what if we compare them as of part 1? what if we compare them as their current strenght, dead or alive? what if Hiruzen was still alive? what if Kakashi doesn't have time for his sharingan to adust to Hiruzen's moves?

Bottom line? NO ONE KNOWS
:ice: ice cream anyone?

 

[PJayy15]

We haven't seen his abilities, so no one can really make a decent comparison. Apparently he knew quite a wide range of jutsu.

True!!!!:ice: