How does Hiruzen actually defeat Kakashi?

[lol99]

Well Kishi "hinted" that Hiruzen was stronger when he himself drew hiruzen beating edo Harishima, edo tobirama and orochimaru.

Oh and Oro+edo Tobirama+edo harishima> living Harishima.

I don't know why you guys can't accept it when its manga cannon.

i know that hiruzen is just an excuse to downgrade hashirama and minato as the strongest hokage but this thread isn't for it
not gonna spam this thread

:ice:

 

[Owarij]

So Kakashi didn't use hidden mist on Itachi in part 2?

Show me where it says Prime Hiruzen has 5 in everything

You do know Kakashi is a tracker, his sense of smell is on par with the Inuzka clan, plus he has ninja hounds with great tracking abilities. Kakashi will not be phased by the bringer of darkness jutsu. In fact as far as we know, Hiruzen doesn't even have this jutsu.

First you say 1000 jutsu then you say 2000 plus jutsu, do you actually know how many jutsu hiruzen has or are you just guessing?

If Hiruzen is such a great genjutsu user then why has he not used it, why didn't he use it against orochimaru. I know sharingan users aren't immune to genjutsu but they will certainly not lose to a genjutsu, they will always manage to break free from it. Kakashi is a genius, he will eventually figure out he is in a genjutsu and with the sharingan it makes it twice as easy to identify.

Fair enough, he had 1000 illusions or whatever, I still don't see how that would help him in this fight. Go ahead and explain to me how genjutsu works for each user then since I don't understand.

You haven't actually told me how Hiruzen would win yet which is my main point of this thread.

?? Kakashi has never used hidden mist in the manga

I said prime hiruzen most likely has 5 in everything.. simple common sense... He already has 5 in seals, gen, tai and nin

the only ones he has as 3 etc, are things he even stated were depleted since his prime state.. strength aka him thinking enma was heavy... chakra reserves etc....
Give him back his young body and strength etc goes back up.. making him all 5's or almost all 5's..


Hiruzen has over 1000 genjutsu's alone...you also have to account for his ninjutsu which he was famed for as well..taijutsu and fuinjtusu etc..

My point is not that hiruzen would beat kakashi, but that you have no idea what hiruzen is capable of ....It's like proclaiming konohamaru can beat white fang because he has shown nothing to counter him...

Just like ninjutsu, there are different genjtusu's that all do different thing..
Hashirama's bringer of darkness blinds the person..
Itachi's heaven/earth mirror reversal reflects a genjutsu back at the caster

Etc....

 

[EliteKakashi]

then why did kakashi have trouble seeing in the mist against zabuza?

Did you not read my post? I said:

Itachi said that the sharingan rendered the mist useless.

That means Itachi could see through the mist with no difficulty due to his sharingan.

Which completely contradicts what the manga said.

 

[AWSUM SID]

With his Hype.

his hype was created by kishi. so, yes he can defeat kakashi.

 

[Gold Lightning]

?? Kakashi has never used hidden mist in the manga

I said prime hiruzen most likely has 5 in everything.. simple common sense... He already has 5 in seals, gen, tai and nin

the only ones he has as 3 etc, are things he even stated were depleted since his prime state.. strength aka him thinking enma was heavy... chakra reserves etc....
Give him back his young body and strength etc goes back up.. making him all 5's or almost all 5's..


Hiruzen has over 1000 genjutsu's alone...you also have to account for his ninjutsu which he was famed for as well..taijutsu and fuinjtusu etc..

My point is not that hiruzen would beat kakashi, but that you have no idea what hiruzen is capable of ....It's like proclaiming konohamaru can beat white fang because he has shown nothing to counter him...

Just like ninjutsu, there are different genjtusu's that all do different thing..
Hashirama's bringer of darkness blinds the person..
Itachi's heaven/earth mirror reversal reflects a genjutsu back at the caster

Etc....

But you can also say the same for Kakashi, we've seen him use like 30 jutsu out of a 1000, so therefore we have no idea what kakashi is capable of. But you and I both know that is a falso argument, the same can be said of Hiruzen. From what I have seen of Hiruzen is what I am comparing to Kakashi and from what I have seen from both tells me that Kakashi has one.

Sorry but I just don't see him beating an advanced sharingan user, let alone an MS user. Kakashi can copy any jutsu Hiruzen throws right, lets say Hiruzen is in his prime do you think he would match kakashi's speed (especially when the sharingan will read hiruzen's movements). Think about Hiruzen beats kakashi in taijutsu by 0.5 - but combine that with a sharingan and that 0.5 is meaningless.

The deciding factors imo are ninjutsu (both have 5's and kakashi can still copy), taijutsu (almost even, basically even with a sharingan) speed (there is no argument in the world that can tell me hiruzen/prime hiruzen is on kakashi's level) and intellegence (which they are both even). I just don't see hiruzen winning in a battle to the death.

 

[Gold Lightning]

Did you not read my post? I said:

Itachi said that the sharingan rendered the mist useless.

That means Itachi could see through the mist with no difficulty due to his sharingan.

Which completely contradicts what the manga said.

Ah, I see what you mean now. So basically Kakashi was trolled and Itachi should have never been able to counter it in the first place lol

 

[BloodSeed]

may i ask if i could get a scan of chapter 2, page 16 where a requirement for a hokage is 1000 something

 

[SasukesSixPack]

Hiruzen was fodder he doesnt defeat anyone.

 

[EliteKakashi]

Ah, I see what you mean now. So basically Kakashi was trolled and Itachi should have never been able to counter it in the first place lol

Just went to show why the anime is useless and you should never, ever use it to back up anything you say in a thread. Kakashi didn't use mist in the manga in the first place, so it's stupid enough that he used it to begin with, then they added a whole 'nother level of fail by saying the sharingan could see through it.

 

[Gold Lightning]

Just went to show why the anime is useless and you should never, ever use it to back up anything you say in a thread. Kakashi didn't use mist in the manga in the first place, so it's stupid enough that he used it to begin with, then they added a whole 'nother level of fail by saying the sharingan could see through it.

Well I only started reading the manga from around Pain invasion so I don't know everything.

 

[ANBU Kakashi23]

i wont talk about prime hiruzen, because theres no reference for his capacities , but the hiruzen we saw vs the kakashi were seeing now is also inconsistent because of power scaling, so to estimate what hiruzens abilities would have been in part 2 if he survived oro invasion is what needs to be done

given that, its hard to say who would have advantage taijutsu wise, weve seen how shinobi with experience like kakuzu can outpace kakashi even with sharingan active, so if were to say hiruzen gets a part 2 scale up he would have some energy to spare rather than fighting conservatively, id have to say hiruzen would most likely have the upper hand in hand to hand, although it wouldnt be too great of a margin because of the sharingan's analytic motion predicting abilities

in ninjutsu is where the complications arise, because as weve seen part 2 kakashi has a seemingly much deeper well of chakra to pull from, its hard to properly assess how much greater hiruzens chakra's would seem to be, but keep in mind hes only getting older and fading while kakashi was and is still growing as a shinobi, he would have an increase but it wouldnt be nearly to the scale that kakashi is pulling shit off currently to, 3 kamui's , something like 6-8 raikiris/lightning manipulations and a mess of fighting we didnt even see, and still ready to go some more, its impractical to say hiruzens chakras would get stronger to that extent when time is against him realistically. you could reference oonoki but he just seems to be a beast :shrug:

in terms of the actual ninjutsu use i believe kakashi has more counters for hiruzen then hiruzen has for kakashi, shiki fuijin aside, given their nature affinities. but hiruzen may have more, im not one to speculate though. we can only debate on what weve seen really[ im sure minato had more than ftg/rasengan/rds/8 trigram but we cant use speculation of his other abilities in discussion] when hiruzen combines his chakra manipulations will probably give kakashi some pressure though, in the end id have to say kakashi takes it with ninjutsu, not even counting kamui, which drains the tits off of kakashi's chakra

genjutsu is the one thing i think hype can be allowed on because when youre rumored to have mastered a 1000 genjutsu , even if youve only done half that, thats probably a feat never before seen in the shinobi world,[ besides that woman who stood with hashirama senju] kakashi hasnt really shown any serious genjutsu feats besides what the sharingan does to its opponents [ zabuza] so on hype alone hiruzen would take it in genjutsu skill clearly, would they be effective? who knows, im thinking visual genjutsu will probably be rendered null by the sharingan, if hiruzen had any sound genjutsu that would be the way to go.

in the end given my estimation on hiruzens part 2 power up and their fighting prowess, id have to say kakashi would probably take it high diff, but only with kamui, otherwise given hiruzen has a larger chakra supply to work with id say hed take it med-high diff

 

[BloodSeed]

getting higher score on a databook doesnt mean you are stronger than somebody. that databook was limited to 5. some got 5 in speed and people who is more faster than you will also get 5 since max is 5. kurenai genjutsu was 5, itachi got 5 when he should be 8-10.
we cant go for databook stats to see whos stronger.

EXAMPLE.

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GOT 32.5

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GOT 31.5

 

[The Hidden Shinobi]

I completely agree OP hiruzen is extremely overrated on base. But then I wonder, is he really? Looking at the 3rd generation third raikage, oonki, 3rd kazakage they are all very powerful and have been revealed in part 2, note, not part 1. Anyway I fail to believe that kishi would make the 3rd hokage weak in comparison to them kishi just wouldn't do that. So I believe because of that and hype hiruzen prime if kishi was ever to reveal it in part 2 he would make hiruzen very powerful to match oonki and the other kages from the 3rd generation.

Saying this I think the most reasonable answer to this debate is that they would be on par with each other in their primes for their own reasons.

Hiruzen natural ability to learn things quickly like konohamaru = kakashi his sharingan.

Basically all round you can find counters to each other which means they must be pretty much on par with each other but unless we see hiruzen's prime we will never know.

 

[AngryRock]

All Kabuto did was make a comment on prime Hiruzen even though he never saw him fight in his prime. Now we have Hiruzen fanboys that think he is the greatest.

 

[AngryRock]

getting higher score on a databook doesnt mean you are stronger than somebody. that databook was limited to 5. some got 5 in speed and people who is more faster than you will also get 5 since max is 5. kurenai genjutsu was 5, itachi got 5 when he should be 8-10.
we cant go for databook stats to see whos stronger.

EXAMPLE.

You must be registered for see links

GOT 32.5

You must be registered for see links

GOT 31.5

EXACTLY! People keep using the databook as a way to prove their point when the databook is severely limited. We all know no one would say Kurunai is on par with Itachi when it comes to genjutsu just because some databook says so.

 

[FizzyDrink]

He is far underrated by the people whom aren't fans, and some fans greatly overrate him. The ones who call him "professor", or "god of shinobi", get it from Kishi's words, but then when they try to use that, some hater goes and says Kishi changed his mind.. e.e; Kishi never said "I change my mind, Hiruzen is now weakest.." That's just the result of haters being dropped on their heads at birth.

Let me tell you a story.

"Once upon a time, there was a boy named Neal. Everyone called him the best basketball player in the school. Then he was beaten by everyone. The end."

Now, are you going to tell me, that just because I said that Neal was the best, that he is? He "was called" the best by other people in the story. That is called an opinion. Now, if I came out in an interview about my story, and said he actually was the best, then he would be. But people in the story called him the best, and he wasn't. Same with Hiruzen.

 

[Gold Lightning]

i wont talk about prime hiruzen, because theres no reference for his capacities , but the hiruzen we saw vs the kakashi were seeing now is also inconsistent because of power scaling, so to estimate what hiruzens abilities would have been in part 2 if he survived oro invasion is what needs to be done

given that, its hard to say who would have advantage taijutsu wise, weve seen how shinobi with experience like kakuzu can outpace kakashi even with sharingan active, so if were to say hiruzen gets a part 2 scale up he would have some energy to spare rather than fighting conservatively, id have to say hiruzen would most likely have the upper hand in hand to hand, although it wouldnt be too great of a margin because of the sharingan's analytic motion predicting abilities

in ninjutsu is where the complications arise, because as weve seen part 2 kakashi has a seemingly much deeper well of chakra to pull from, its hard to properly assess how much greater hiruzens chakra's would seem to be, but keep in mind hes only getting older and fading while kakashi was and is still growing as a shinobi, he would have an increase but it wouldnt be nearly to the scale that kakashi is pulling shit off currently to, 3 kamui's , something like 6-8 raikiris/lightning manipulations and a mess of fighting we didnt even see, and still ready to go some more, its impractical to say hiruzens chakras would get stronger to that extent when time is against him realistically. you could reference oonoki but he just seems to be a beast :shrug:

in terms of the actual ninjutsu use i believe kakashi has more counters for hiruzen then hiruzen has for kakashi, shiki fuijin aside, given their nature affinities. but hiruzen may have more, im not one to speculate though. we can only debate on what weve seen really[ im sure minato had more than ftg/rasengan/rds/8 trigram but we cant use speculation of his other abilities in discussion] when hiruzen combines his chakra manipulations will probably give kakashi some pressure though, in the end id have to say kakashi takes it with ninjutsu, not even counting kamui, which drains the tits off of kakashi's chakra

genjutsu is the one thing i think hype can be allowed on because when youre rumored to have mastered a 1000 genjutsu , even if youve only done half that, thats probably a feat never before seen in the shinobi world,[ besides that woman who stood with hashirama senju] kakashi hasnt really shown any serious genjutsu feats besides what the sharingan does to its opponents [ zabuza] so on hype alone hiruzen would take it in genjutsu skill clearly, would they be effective? who knows, im thinking visual genjutsu will probably be rendered null by the sharingan, if hiruzen had any sound genjutsu that would be the way to go.

in the end given my estimation on hiruzens part 2 power up and their fighting prowess, id have to say kakashi would probably take it high diff, but only with kamui, otherwise given hiruzen has a larger chakra supply to work with id say hed take it med-high diff

I like your arguments, very logical. With regard to your Kakuzu statement, Kakuzu has more fighting experience than Kakashi and Hiruzen combined. Also take into account that Kakashi was taking on 3 hearts and Hidan before Kakuzu, escaping multiple hits from wind bullets, having to counter zabuza's lightning and much more - Kakashi was exhausted by the time he started fighting Kakazu.

Also I like your points about the genjutsu thing, although individually none will affect kakashi. Why, well a vision genjutsu doesn't hinder kakashi's sense of smell and tracking abilities, a sound genjutsu doesn't affect the sharingans vision and smell (it may only temporarily disorientate kakashi for a bit) and a smell genjutsu (don't even think that exits xd) will not affect his eyes and hearing. So Hiruzen's only option is to combine different genjutsu if he can.

The whole ninjutsu thing is the main debate, both know a lot of jutsu however kakashi can counter both of hiruzen's elemental nature since kakashi's water > Hiruzen's fire and Kakashi's lightning > Hiruzen's earth. Obviously Hiruzen isn't limited to just elemental jutsu but neither is kakashi and I'm sure kakashi can copy most of hiruzen's jutsu anyway.

I will always say Kakashi will beat Hiruzen in taijutsu only because of the sharingan and speed advantage together. With Enma is much more difficult, kakashi would have to hurt enma - his best bet is to electrocute enma in rod mode I guess. That's of he can.

getting higher score on a databook doesnt mean you are stronger than somebody. that databook was limited to 5. some got 5 in speed and people who is more faster than you will also get 5 since max is 5. kurenai genjutsu was 5, itachi got 5 when he should be 8-10.
we cant go for databook stats to see whos stronger.

EXAMPLE.

You must be registered for see links

GOT 32.5

You must be registered for see links

GOT 31.5

I know that, e.g, Hiruzen's hand signs say 5, while kakashi's is also at 5 but I doubt hiruzen's hand signs are on par with kakashi's.

I completely agree OP hiruzen is extremely overrated on base. But then I wonder, is he really? Looking at the 3rd generation third raikage, oonki, 3rd kazakage they are all very powerful and have been revealed in part 2, note, not part 1. Anyway I fail to believe that kishi would make the 3rd hokage weak in comparison to them kishi just wouldn't do that. So I believe because of that and hype hiruzen prime if kishi was ever to reveal it in part 2 he would make hiruzen very powerful to match oonki and the other kages from the 3rd generation.

Saying this I think the most reasonable answer to this debate is that they would be on par with each other in their primes for their own reasons.

Hiruzen natural ability to learn things quickly like konohamaru = kakashi his sharingan.

Basically all round you can find counters to each other which means they must be pretty much on par with each other but unless we see hiruzen's prime we will never know.

Agreed

 

[Prince Charles]

i give this fight to kakashi med-high diff at best

old hiruzen ofc?

 

[FizzyDrink]

Well Kishi "hinted" that Hiruzen was stronger when he himself drew hiruzen beating edo Harishima, edo tobirama and orochimaru.

Oh and Oro+edo Tobirama+edo harishima> living Harishima.

I don't know why you guys can't accept it when its manga cannon.

Stupid. Oro was going easy on Hiruzen. When Hiruzen was in bringer of darkness, he lost. In a fair battle where the two sides are just going for the kill, Hiruzen dies there. He never "defeated" edo Hashi and Tobirama. He was CRUSHED and HUMILIATED by them, but, as lol99 said, his will of fire kept him going, which is what Kishi was trying to portray.

 

[Gold Lightning]

i give this fight to kakashi med-high diff at best

old hiruzen ofc?

The thing some people don't understand is that this is the only hiruzen that exists.

p.s Would you look at that, I guarantee that it was a Hiruzen fan boy that just down rated the thread.