How does Hiruzen actually defeat Kakashi?

[Ven]

We haven't seen his abilities, so no one can really make a decent comparison. Apparently he knew quite a wide range of jutsu.

 

[lol99]

No counter that you know... For all you know he has a jutsu that can cover the battlefield in smoke/fog

Or maybe he even knows his master's just bringer of darkness.. Given his reputation, he was stated to be a master of genjutsu and has over 1000 of them...

Based on the two /three jutsu we've seen he can't win..
But his hype given by enma, oro etc indicated he was nothing like that in his prime

in simple words a smoke bomb spam lol

hiruzen himself said what kind of fight he prefers

and i believe he certainly outmatches kakashi in a taijutsu or a close range fight, like the sannin theme his abilities are based on his summon and that is a monkey so i guess he was indeed very agile like a monkey in his prime rather than him possessing a justu that stops kamui or amaterasu or susanoo

oro and enma's statement automatically means he pull out OP techniques like susanoo or kamui or FTG from his @ss?

enma seems to refer to his poor taijutsu and hiruzen himself complains how heavy enma is in his age

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notice how easily hiruzen was flung away by hashirama and tobirama

and regarding genjutsu if indeed he has them he certainly never tried during oro fight which is strange since as far as i can remember genjutsu doesn't require high chakra levels and that was the thing he was lacking in his old age

kakashi too has 1000 jutsus and we all know the truth behind it U_U

 

[Drwonderful]

I heard that this is a man who created Jutsu on the fly, and that he also created a large number of Justu.

I really want to see him fight in his prime, though. It would be awesome.

 

[ProjectOuterspace]

Kakashi is a fodder compared to Hiruzen.

Hiruzen LEARNED 1000 jutsu. Kakashi has COPIED 1000 Jutsu.

We know nothing about Hiruzen other than his Hype. The only reason we know more about Hashirama is because we keep hearing about him from Madara.

So Madara, the ultimate Hype, has hyped up his lover \ rival Hashirama. That does not make either of them the ultimate being.

If nagato had the healing abilities of Hashirama he would have been seen as the ultimate being.

Its all about context.

Now leave it alone.

 

[Owarij]

in simple words a smoke bomb spam lol

hiruzen himself said what kind of fight he prefers

and i believe he certainly outmatches kakashi in a taijutsu or a close range fight, like the sannin theme his abilities are based on his summon and that is a monkey so i guess he was indeed very agile like a monkey in his prime rather than him possessing a justu that stops kamui or amaterasu or susanoo

oro and enma's statement automatically means he pull out OP techniques like susanoo or kamui or FTG from his @ss?

enma seems to refer to his poor taijutsu and hiruzen himself complains how heavy enma is in his age

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notice how easily hiruzen was flung away by hashirama and tobirama

and regarding genjutsu if indeed he has them he certainly never tried during oro fight which is strange since as far as i can remember genjutsu doesn't require high chakra levels and that was the thing he was lacking in his old age

kakashi too has 1000 jutsus and we all know the truth behind it U_U

Well that's a bad comparison.. yes with the sannin the summoning sorta reflects the summoner..
But manda is a snake, with no hands.. yet orochimaru, like hiruzen was stated to have thousands of jutsu....

Where in this manga did it say genjutsu requires little chakra? ....You do Hiruzen couldn't use alot of his jutsu because of his depleted chakra levels due to old age right? the anbu outright said that

 

[lol99]

Well that's a bad comparison.. yes with the sannin the summoning sorta reflects the summoner..
But manda is a snake, with no hands.. yet orochimaru, like hiruzen was stated to have thousands of jutsu....

Where in this manga did it say genjutsu requires little chakra? ....You do Hiruzen couldn't use alot of his jutsu because of his depleted chakra levels due to old age right? the anbu outright said that

whatever you prefer :shrug:

jutsu-wise i am not sure, maybe but oro spent all his time finding the way to immortality

but i highly doubt the rest of konoha outside the clans possess OP techniques that are any good (hiruzen was said to be able to use the jutsus existing in konoha)

doesn't genjutsu require intelligence and accurate chakra control rather than huge amount of chakras :shrug:

 

[Gold Lightning]

its gonna be real close

while hiruzen may be able to match or even outmatch kakashi's ninjutsu or taijutsu due to his reputation as the professor, he has no counter for Kamui, which kakashi is bound to use since i believe kakashi cannot win otherwise

Anyway it seems he is much like sannin whose abilities are based around their summons which actually makes sense since he was their sensei , Hiruzen seems to be a close-mid range fighter along with enma.


Seems he prefers Hand to hand combat or a fight with enma in its transformed form rather than a fight which involves jutsu exchange
Why do you think Kakashi cannot win without kamui. What is it that Hiruzen acutally exceeds kakashi in? Kakashi will match any ninjutsu hiruzen throws at him. Fire techniques will not work, neither will earth techniques. As far as we know, kakashi has way more jutsu than Hirzen and more elemental natures.

Speed wise, Kakashi out manouvers him and because of this hiruzen will lose in taijutsu. Sharingan will see any form of close combat attacks that hirzen tries to lAnd. Hiruzen will not outsmart kakashi either.

No counter that you know... For all you know he has a jutsu that can cover the battlefield in smoke/fog

Or maybe he even knows his master's just bringer of darkness.. Given his reputation, he was stated to be a master of genjutsu and has over 1000 of them...

Based on the two /three jutsu we've seen he can't win..
But his hype given by enma, oro etc indicated he was nothing like that in his prime


What? when kakashi is mentioned his jutsu number is only about 1000 and over..

hiruzen has 1000 genjutsu's alone..
And 5's in both nin , gen and tai... something kakashi doesn't have..

You are the prime example of a foolish, deleuded hiruzen fanboy. First of all stop making up techniques for hiruzen, you can't just say hiruzen may have a smoke/fog jutsu that will counter kamui. Are you stupid, besides kakashi also uses the hidden mist jutsu and slient killing.

Secondly, the only genjutsu that will work on Kakashi is from another sharingan user/ms/tsukuyomi. You do know Kakashi will be able to see through any genjutsu from his sharingan. Also where does it actually say hiruzen has 1000 genjusu. It sounds like something you just pulled out of your arse. How can someone have 1000 genjutsu when the user detetmines what will happen in the genjutsu.

Lastly according to the handbook Kakashi is An overall 34.5 while Hiruzen is a 34. Even an idiot like you can understand what that means. Hiruzen doesn't have a counterr for kamui (not that kakashi needs it against him). Only Tobi can counter Kamui and that isn't even guaranteed.

 

[Owarij]

its gonna be real close

while hiruzen may be able to match or even outmatch kakashi's ninjutsu or taijutsu due to his reputation as the professor, he has no counter for Kamui, which kakashi is bound to use since i believe kakashi cannot win otherwise

Anyway it seems he is much like sannin whose abilities are based around their summons which actually makes sense since he was their sensei , Hiruzen seems to be a close-mid range fighter along with enma.


Seems he prefers Hand to hand combat or a fight with enma in its transformed form rather than a fight which involves jutsu exchange
Why do you think Kakashi cannot win without kamui. What is it that Hiruzen acutally exceeds kakashi in? Kakashi will match any ninjutsu hiruzen throws at him. Fire techniques will not work, neither will earth techniques. As far as we know, kakashi has way more jutsu than Hirzen and more elemental natures.

Speed wise, Kakashi out manouvers him and because of this hiruzen will lose in taijutsu. Sharingan will see any form of close combat attacks that hirzen tries to lAnd. Hiruzen will not outsmart kakashi either.


You are the prime example of a foolish, deleuded hiruzen fanboy. First of all stop making up techniques for hiruzen, you can't just say hiruzen may have a smoke/fog jutsu that will counter kamui. Are you stupid, besides kakashi also uses the hidden mist jutsu and slient killing.

Secondly, the only genjutsu that will work on Kakashi is from another sharingan user/ms/tsukuyomi. You do know Kakashi will be able to see through any genjutsu from his sharingan. Also where does it actually say hiruzen has 1000 genjusu. It sounds like something you just pulled out of your arse. How can someone have 1000 genjutsu when the user detetmines what will happen in the genjutsu.

Lastly according to the handbook Kakashi is An overall 34.5 while Hiruzen is a 34. Even an idiot like you can understand what that means. Hiruzen doesn't have a counterr for kamui (not that kakashi needs it against him). Only Tobi can counter Kamui and that isn't even guaranteed.

Firstly, I said you have no idea what hiruzen has.. thus you can't can't say kakashi wins... we've seen nothing of white fang, does kakashi win there as well? It's impossible for you to know such a thing.. He's used like three of his reported 2000 + jutsu...

Kakashi does not have the hidden mist jutsu..

Lastly according to the handbook Kakashi is An overall 34.5 while Hiruzen is a 34.

My god, you do realize hiruen was like 70? you know he complained about his chakra levels, strength, etc being depeleted since his youth..
You reaize a healthy hiruzen has 5's in everything?

Secondly, the only genjutsu that will work on Kakashi is from another sharingan user/ms/tsukuyomi. You do know Kakashi will be able to see through any genjutsu from his sharingan

Idiotic, A jutsu like bringer of darkness would more than work on Kakashi...
You think sharingan users are immune to genjtusu? Are you stupid?
Itachi a master of genjutsu and sasuke got caught in tayuyas genjutsu in a recent chapter..


Pulled it out my ass huh? read the manga please. You're just making yourself look ignorant

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How can someone have 1000 genjutsu when the user detetmines what will happen in the genjutsu.

Ok, You also have no idea how genjutsu works..
It seems you think there is one genjutsu for everyone? are you retarded?

 

[lol99]

Firstly, I said you have no idea what hiruzen has.. thus you can't can't say kakashi wins... we've seen nothing of white fang, does kakashi win there as well? It's impossible for you to know such a thing.. He's used like three of his reported 2000 + jutsu...

Kakashi does not have the hidden mist jutsu..




My god, you do realize hiruen was like 70? you know he complained about his chakra levels, strength, etc being depeleted since his youth..
You reaize a healthy hiruzen has 5's in everything?

true but you have seen the trend, every ninja has been given few abilities and that makes them unique

Hiruzen-

off-the chart taijutsu
knowledge of all the jutsu in konoha
A haxx summon like enma which can extend like the sword of kusanagi
Katon
Doton
uses paper bombs lol

i am excluding genjutsu cause i doubt that part, its just like kakashi's 1000 jutsus

so overall all these definitely make some one hokage material
tsunade is hokage with her limited abilities and she gets along fine :y

 

[Drakengard]

Well Hiruzen does have a 5 in taijutsu and you can see how that would be a great characteristic to have when combined with Enma. A diamond hard staff with that kind of taijutsu mastery is only strengthened by the fact that Hiruzen's weapon is actually a summon capable of thought. I'd imagine that in his prime, Hiruzen could defeat several shinobi off this combo alone.

Next is ninjutsu, where he strives in. No one can be certain up til now but I wouldn't laugh at the idea of Hiruzen mastering all 5 elements unless it was stated somewhere that nobody had at that point in the story (think Yamato said it, not sure). It doesn't have to be regular elemental jutsu either.. as Hiruzen was questioned when he didn't create shadow clones to fight with him. He's been shown to have a scent of smell as well as creating multiple clones of the shuriken he throws. And we all know about Enma - I highly doubt we've seen all of his transformations.. and the fact that he's a shape shifter gives Hiruzen a lot of options. If he's fighting a losing battle, he always had RDS as a trump card (although he only learned about this AFTER Minato's death IIRC)

I don't think we've seen genjutsu feats from him yet. Does anybody know if the 1000 illusions thing is a mistranslation or not? I've seen that page in several different formats. Not sure if Hiruzen actually uses this as a major part of combat or not. I mean doesn't Orochimaru have a 5 in genjutsu? Doesn't seem to use it to such an extent.

Of course we have to bring intelligence into play. I'm sure the Professor was no push over in this department either. I mean he literally planted explosive tags on the Edo Kages level while Orochimaru himself didn't seem to notice. I don't think I've seen that sort of creativity using them since.. what Hanzo?

Over all I do think that Kakashi's Raikiri is on a higher level than a good portion of Hiruzen's jutsu. I'm not sure how well it would be in a fight against them, but it's not a bad tool to have. Still Hiruzen seems like the better fighter here IMO. I'd love to see Kishi remake the ET Kages vs. Old Hiruzen fight because I believe he would write it much more differently. Kamui however is fair game; it's a top-tier weapon given to a weaker shinobi over all (although IMO Kakashi isn't far behind).

 

[Owarij]

true but you have seen the trend, every ninja has been given few abilities and that makes them unique

Hiruzen-

off-the chart taijutsu
knowledge of all the jutsu in konoha
A haxx summon like enma which can extend like the sword of kusanagi
Katon
Doton
uses paper bombs lol

i am excluding genjutsu cause i doubt that part, its just like kakashi's 1000 jutsus

so overall all these definitely make some one hokage material
tsunade is hokage with her limited abiities and she gets along fine

Why are you singling him out for his taijutsu only? yeah he's one of the only people in the manga to have a 5 in taijutsu, but emphasis has also been put in the manga and databooks about his ninjutsu... the reason he was called the professor was not only about knowledge of Konoha jutsu, but knowledge and ability to use them..... even kakashi, a sharingan user doesn't have 5 in genjutsu, and he doesn't have it in taijutsu either...

Well Hiruzen does have a 5 in taijutsu and you can see how that would be a great characteristic to have when combined with Enma. A diamond hard staff with that kind of taijutsu mastery is only strengthened by the fact that Hiruzen's weapon is actually a summon capable of thought. I'd imagine that in his prime, Hiruzen could defeat several shinobi off this combo alone.

Next is ninjutsu, where he strives in. No one can be certain up til now but I wouldn't laugh at the idea of Hiruzen mastering all 5 elements unless it was stated somewhere that nobody had at that point in the story (think Yamato said it, not sure). It doesn't have to be regular elemental jutsu either.. as Hiruzen was questioned when he didn't create shadow clones to fight with him. He's been shown to have a scent of smell as well as creating multiple clones of the shuriken he throws. And we all know about Enma - I highly doubt we've seen all of his transformations.. and the fact that he's a shape shifter gives Hiruzen a lot of options. If he's fighting a losing battle, he always had RDS as a trump card (although he only learned about this AFTER Minato's death IIRC)

I don't think we've seen genjutsu feats from him yet. Does anybody know if the 1000 illusions thing is a mistranslation or not? I've seen that page in several different formats. Not sure if Hiruzen actually uses this as a major part of combat or not. I mean doesn't Orochimaru have a 5 in genjutsu? Doesn't seem to use it to such an extent.

Of course we have to bring intelligence into play. I'm sure the Professor was no push over in this department either. I mean he literally planted explosive tags on the Edo Kages level while Orochimaru himself didn't seem to notice. I don't think I've seen that sort of creativity using them since.. what Hanzo?

Over all I do think that Kakashi's Raikiri is on a higher level than a good portion of Hiruzen's jutsu. I'm not sure how well it would be in a fight against them, but it's not a bad tool to have. Still Hiruzen seems like the better fighter here IMO. I'd love to see Kishi remake the ET Kages vs. Old Hiruzen fight because I believe he would write it much more differently. Kamui however is fair game; it's a top-tier weapon given to a weaker shinobi over all (although IMO Kakashi isn't far behind).

To correct a small part, Noone ever said that there has been noone to master 5 elements.. Yamato and kakashi simply said, that every person is born with ONE affinity, from further training, you get other elements, jounins normally have two by then.. kakakshi has 3..

I can link you the databook page where kishi puts that mastering all 5 elements will take several long years..

I highly doubt we've seen all his transformations either..
Enma is based on the monkey king myth, and he has I believe 72 or 75 transformations.. we've seen two from enma... pole and cage form... the monkey king could also control wind and water, and fuse them together to make cloud..

You can see where kishi was going with enma..

You just can't claim someone > another when you know almost nothing of them or why they were feared in the first place


Btw , the scan linked isn't a mistranslation, It's the official viz english scan.

 

[Enchanted Champion]

For all the morons who are saying Hiruzen is all hype and are riding harisima to no end.... Do you realize that Harisima is all hype as well?? Have you ever seen him fight? Yes and he got stomped as an edo along with Oro and tobirama.

Hiruzen in prime> Harishima

 

[lol99]

For all the morons who are saying Hiruzen is all hype and are riding harisima to no end.... Do you realize that Harisima is all hype as well?? Have you ever seen him fight? Yes and he got stomped as an edo along with Oro and tobirama.

Hiruzen in prime> Harishima

utter nonsense

i will post a thread soon but for now​

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Hiruzen did win that fight but not in the sense most take it out to be

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to be a hokage is to put your life on the line and protect the village even if it means that you loose your life and this is what Hiruzen did.
At the end he protected what he treasured most and thats is why he won

However he did not defeat the edo hokages in any sense but he willingly sacrificed his life to protect the village by sealing them away.
and this is one of the themes of the manga- to never give up hope/fighting even in the face of overwhelming power even in part 2!

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The very ground shakes up when susanoo takes on step
However Oonoki displays the never give up spirit by taking a step of his own even though he knows they are nowhere near madara's level!

This is clearly meant to show that even though the heroes dont stand a chance they still fight and are willing to sacrifice their lifes if that means they have a chance of stopping the villian

The fight was never meant to say that Hiruzen>Hashirama+Tobirama, it was meant to show what it means to be a hokage and the fact that Hiruzen has inherited the will of fire from previous hokages

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[EliteKakashi]

Hiruzen never tried his hardest during his fight with Oro and the ET kages, Enma himself stated that. Hiruzen really just said **** it and decided to take out the 3 of them right then and there. A lot of people complain about power scaling, saying Hiruzen couldn't compete with them now, but forget to factor in Hiruzen would be scaled up in power just like those 3 were(well...2, as Tobirama hasn't really been scaled up much).

My opinion on Kakashi vs Old Hiruzen, restricting Kamui:

Kakashi and Old Hiruzen would be interesting. I think many people over look the fact that Hiruzen actually held back vs Oro and the Edo Hokages. Not only did Enma comment that Hiruzen wasn't being his usual self, but Hiruzen was likely(not exactly fact, but I think it's a fair point) being a little conservative with his chakra, as he was up against 3 people.

Taijutsu - Would probably be even here. Kakashi is nearly elite in taijutsu, and I think his sharingan would close the gap. Hiruzen's taijutsu showed to still be incredible in his fight vs the Edo Hokages.

Edge - Tie

Ninjutsu - The only issue here is that Hiruzen doesn't have the chakra levels to go in to a prolonged ninjutsu battle, and Kakashi currently holds the elemental advantage(having Raiton, Suiton and Doton, compared to just Katon and Doton), because while I feel it's safe to assume Hiruzen could use more than Katon and Doton, it'd be hard to assume exactly what techniques he could use. There is always the statement "every technique in konoha", though.

Edge - Kakashi in feats, Hiruzen in hype

Genjutsu - Hiruzen was said to know over 1,000 genjutsu, but he didn't use the first one. Kakashi doesn't have a high enough level genjutsu to make a difference, so genjutsu isn't likely to be used.

Edge - Probably wouldn't even come in to play, but hype easily makes this go to Hiruzen.

Intelligence - Kakashi's analytic feats are matched by no one in this series outside of Shikaku and Shikamaru. It's simply his specialty. Hiruzen I doubt was a slouch, but he didn't use much strategy in his fight. Overall book smarts, Hiruzen would have the edge. But combat intelligence? Kakashi wins this quite easily going off feats.

Edge - Kakashi

Strength/Speed/Stamina - Kakashi wins all 3, due to Hiruzen's old age. Their databook stats are equal in stamina, but it appears Kakashi will receive a boost in stamina after this war. I think speed would be the biggest challenge for Hiruzen. Strength is kind of irrelevant between these two, and both have their difficulties in stamina(though Hiruzen more so than current Kakashi), but Kakashi quite clearly has the speed battle won.

Edge - Kakashi

Overall - I think Kakashi would probably win with mid difficulty against Old Hiruzen by himself, but summoning Enma bumps this up to a high difficulty fight that could go either way...this all being if Shiki Fuujin is restricted. If it's not, Hiruzen would more likely than not win(well.. I guess I should say tie, lol). Shiki Fuujin is not even something Orochimaru recognized, so I find it hard to believe that Kakashi would know what the handseals meant. Hiruzen could use his shadow clones and Enma to help grab Kakashi, Enma being the most likely option to get him, and Kakashi would be done for.

So...

Overall Edge - Kakashi, high difficulty without Shiki Fuujin, Tie if it's counted.

Won't even bother with Kakashi vs Prime Hiruzen. Going off what we know of Prime Hiruzen, being considered the strongest kage of his time/considered God of Shinobi at that time, despite having ruled as Hokage during a time when 2 villages had their strongest kages ever(3rd Kazekage, 3rd Raikage) says quite a bit, but we have nothing in terms of feats to compare.

 

[Gold Lightning]

Firstly, I said you have no idea what hiruzen has.. thus you can't can't say kakashi wins... we've seen nothing of white fang, does kakashi win there as well? It's impossible for you to know such a thing.. He's used like three of his reported 2000 + jutsu...

Kakashi does not have the hidden mist jutsu..




My god, you do realize hiruen was like 70? you know he complained about his chakra levels, strength, etc being depeleted since his youth..
You reaize a healthy hiruzen has 5's in everything?


Idiotic, A jutsu like bringer of darkness would more than work on Kakashi...
You think sharingan users are immune to genjtusu? Are you stupid?
Itachi a master of genjutsu and sasuke got caught in tayuyas genjutsu in a recent chapter..


Pulled it out my ass huh? read the manga please. You're just making yourself look ignorant

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Ok, You also have no idea how genjutsu works..
It seems you think there is one genjutsu for everyone? are you retarded?

So Kakashi didn't use hidden mist on Itachi in part 2?

Show me where it says Prime Hiruzen has 5 in everything

You do know Kakashi is a tracker, his sense of smell is on par with the Inuzka clan, plus he has ninja hounds with great tracking abilities. Kakashi will not be phased by the bringer of darkness jutsu. In fact as far as we know, Hiruzen doesn't even have this jutsu.

First you say 1000 jutsu then you say 2000 plus jutsu, do you actually know how many jutsu hiruzen has or are you just guessing?

If Hiruzen is such a great genjutsu user then why has he not used it, why didn't he use it against orochimaru. I know sharingan users aren't immune to genjutsu but they will certainly not lose to a genjutsu, they will always manage to break free from it. Kakashi is a genius, he will eventually figure out he is in a genjutsu and with the sharingan it makes it twice as easy to identify.

Fair enough, he had 1000 illusions or whatever, I still don't see how that would help him in this fight. Go ahead and explain to me how genjutsu works for each user then since I don't understand.

You haven't actually told me how Hiruzen would win yet which is my main point of this thread.

 

[EliteKakashi]

So Kakashi didn't use hidden mist on Itachi in part 2?

No, that was filler. You should have known that by the fact that Itachi contradicted the manga in saying the sharingan rendered the mist useless, or something to that effect.

 

[Enchanted Champion]

The fight was never meant to say that Hiruzen>Hashirama+Tobirama, it was meant to show what it means to be a hokage and the fact that Hiruzen has inherited the will of fire from previous hokages

I'm curious as to how you come to that conclusion. Did you speak to Kishi in person or over the phone? Or maybe it was email?

 

[lol99]

I'm curious as to how you come to that conclusion. Did you speak to Kishi in person or over the phone? Or maybe it was email?

no because i unlike you can take a hint when it is given in the manga

 

[Gold Lightning]

No, that was filler. You should have known that by the fact that Itachi contradicted the manga in saying the sharingan rendered the mist useless, or something to that effect.

then why did kakashi have trouble seeing in the mist against zabuza?

 

[Enchanted Champion]

no because i unlike you can take a hint when it is given in the manga

Well Kishi "hinted" that Hiruzen was stronger when he himself drew hiruzen beating edo Harishima, edo tobirama and orochimaru.

Oh and Oro+edo Tobirama+edo harishima> living Harishima.

I don't know why you guys can't accept it when its manga cannon.