[Discussion] How did the 1st Hokage "kill" Uchiha Madara?

[Taboo]

this is a dilema only Kishi can solve, and to be honest I dont think that he himself with his brilliant mind knows how Hashirama was able to defeat Madara, he just threw it in our face as a fact.
That is why I here by demand from Kishi to make a gaiden or something to salve this puzzle that has been puzzling us!!!!

 

[brianS]

madara may have been losing in the fight with the 1st but he had the cunning to save himself at the last to continue is plan in the future without no one to oppose him. and i agree with the theory about the 9-tails knowing how to beat madara or something like that

 

[Perkele311]

I think EMS had to be part of what kept him alive. Even without using izanagi he should have been able to survive otherwise EMS=Fail. The 1st was a beast though I have no doubt that he would have been able to kill a MS user but I would hope that EMS would make a huge difference ie madara is still beat in the end but just can't die nothing fancy.

 

[niblack89]

the 1st did have a darkness genjutsu in the manga. That could have cut off the sharingans ability for genjutsu. What i wanna is why didn't Madara do what he did to Danzo's root fighter's (fu and Torune) to the 1st.

 

[cryhwks]

Alright so I'm under the assumption that everyone else is under the assumption that EMS=pretty much absolute pwnage. It's the ultimate sharingan. No more going blind when someone uses their mangekyou, and the only limit is their chakra, which should be awfully high since they obtained EMS. Now when I think about the EMS it seems awfully overpowered with ametarasu, tsukuyomi, and susano'o. Seems pretty much invincible.

Now to the title of this forum... How did the 1st Hokage "kill" Uchiha Madara? Madara had EMS when they fought and the 1st was still able to take him down. Granted Madara fooled him in the end, but still for madara to be beaten down like that. I think EMS isn't all it's made up to be... there has to be some sort of weak point that the 1st exploited. The 1st only had one unique ability which was the ability to control wood. It doesn't seem like that unique ability would be enough to take down EMS, let alone Madara who is supposed to be the strongest uchiha.

So how do you guys think the 1st beat Madara?

Even though the Sharingan is a powerful tech it really does seem like a curse because of the things you have to do to make it more powerful & just like MS has the effect to make you go blind i think there i some kind of other curse that happens when you get EMS- & Madara fight's only for himself & the 1st was fighting to protect Konoha remember what the 3rd told Orochimaru about that.

 

[The Shadow Puppeteer]

dude someone already surpassed 4th , his son NARUTO!!!

Even kakashi said !!!:naruto::naruto:


:naruto::naruto: :naruto::naruto: :naruto::naruto: :naruto::naruto: :naruto::naruto:

ya I know that that's been said in the manga, but I think they're more even. Especially with naruto being the most unpredictable ninja. For some reason I think that Minato would still beat naruto in a fight though. I don't know

I THINK THAT HASHIRAMA DEFEATED MADARA DUE TO THE FACT THROUGH OUT THE SERIES HISTORY IT STATES THAT THEY WOULD BE CONSTANTLY BATTLING EACH OTHER AND HE WOULD OF UNDERSTOOD HOW THE MS WORKED THEREFORE KNOWING ITS WEAKPOINTS ALONG WITH HIS CLANS KNOWLEDGE OF JUTSU( The Senju clan gained their fame in the era before the founding of the hidden villages. Where other clans focused on mastering one particular skill, the Senju were masters in all skills, from ninjutsu, to taijutsu, to genjutsu. Because of this, they were feared as "the clan with a thousand skills" (「千の手を持つ一族」, "sen no te o motsu ichizoku"), which gave them their name Senju (千手, "a thousand skills", "a thousand hands").ALONG WITH HIS MAD WOOD RELEASE JUTSU IT SEEMS HE HAD GOOD CONTROL OF NATURE CHAKRA COMPARED TO MS AND THE EMS ALL THE TECHNIQUES ARE MORE RELATED TO A DARKER POWER AND RAW CHAKRA ,WHERE AS HASHIRAMA CHAKRA CAME FROM NATURE AND WHO KNOWS DID HE HAVE THE OTHER TAILED BEASTS FIGHTING THE 9 TAILS? WHICH ALSO COULD OF SWAYED THE BATTLE AGAINST MADARA COS THE TAILED BEASTS COULD ALSO HOLD THE SECRET TO DEFEATING THE 9TAILS... >>> THATS JUST MY OPINION

Hashirama only fought the MS once though. When madara was telling sasuke his story he said that after his brother gave his eyes to madara, then uchiha signed a truce with the senju. That stopped the fighting, but madara wanted them to fight so he abandoned the clan and then Hashirama and Madara fought resulting in Madara's "death." So Hashirama only saw MS once, and beat it.

Still the only problem I have is that, I'm not sure whether Madara had tsukuyomi, amaterasu, and susano'o back then or still does, but those are the only MS techs we really know about. Now I'm just kinda assuming that Madara would have those when he fought hashirama, and I just don't understand how he would avoided tsukuyomi which is probably the worst genjutsu. he might be able to avoid amaterasu but it would be difficult. and susano'o makes him invurnerable. It just doesn't add up. What I see happening is susano'o being activated so madara can't be hurt. Then he just uses tsukuyomi a few times and hashirama's head implodes on itself. I mean one tsukuyomi was bad on kakashi and itachi made sure not to kill kakashi. but a serious tsukuyomi a few times, probably once and it's impossible to stand up again. especially from madara.

 

[H3llScreaM]

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here is the page in the manga where madara is telling sasuke about his battle with the 1st...he was very obviously controlling the kyuubi during the fight.

okey.. look at Madara`s eyes.. its EMS or MS?

i think this puzzle even kishi can`t resolve..

 

[TRANEGUN]

Hashirama only fought the MS once though. When madara was telling sasuke his story he said that after his brother gave his eyes to madara, then uchiha signed a truce with the senju. That stopped the fighting, but madara wanted them to fight so he abandoned the clan and then Hashirama and Madara fought resulting in Madara's "death." So Hashirama only saw MS once, and beat it.

IT NEVER STATES THAT THAT HE ONLY SEEN MS ONCE WHAT ABOUT HIS BROTHER WHO ALSO HAD THE MS IM SURE THEY WOULD OF FOUGHT KNOWING FULL WELL THE BROTHERS WERE ON PAR!

 

[yusufms]

okey.. look at Madara`s eyes.. its EMS or MS?

i think this puzzle even kishi can`t resolve..

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that tells us that he had to use ms to be able to control the kyuubi. having already taken his brothers eyes at the time, it meant that he fought the 1st with EMS...and LOST!!!

 

[The Shadow Puppeteer]

IT NEVER STATES THAT THAT HE ONLY SEEN MS ONCE WHAT ABOUT HIS BROTHER WHO ALSO HAD THE MS IM SURE THEY WOULD OF FOUGHT KNOWING FULL WELL THE BROTHERS WERE ON PAR!

I'm sorry I meant EMS because I was talking about after his brother gave his eyes to madara. EMS gives new powerful techs that hashirama wouldn't have seen before.

 

[Vergil..]

I'm sorry I meant EMS because I was talking about after his brother gave his eyes to madara. EMS gives new powerful techs that hashirama wouldn't have seen before.

only one new technique
this is stated by Itachi while he talks with sasuke about the MS, EMS and Madara

 

[Amat3ra5u]

this is a dilema only Kishi can solve, and to be honest I dont think that he himself with his brilliant mind knows how Hashirama was able to defeat Madara, he just threw it in our face as a fact.
That is why I here by demand from Kishi to make a gaiden or something to salve this puzzle that has been puzzling us!!!!

Exactly...
i agree 150%..i bet kishi is still trying to figure out how the 1 st hokage won that match...you took the words strait out of my mouth dude.

 

[jovardo]

That makes sense... I didn't remember yamato saying that about hashirama. The only other thing is that the 4th is supposed to be the strongest shinobi that konoha produced. Probably one of the strongest ever, which means that he would be stronger than the 1st. And since the 4th couldn't beat madara, then that makes me a little confused on how the 1st managed to beat madara in the first place. Although the 4th had the kyuubi to deal with as well, but Minato said that Madara saw through everyone of his moves which means Minato was pretty much beat either way.

wait are u saying that the 4th fought madara in the past could u inform me when , how and where the fight took place. and how come madara said he hid into the shadows and UCHIA ITACHI was the 1st person to discover that he was still alive and asked him for his help to kill the uchia clan. look up back when madara was telling saskue the truth of itachi and u will see wat im talking about. because it is the fisrt im hearing that the 4th fought madara. the only time the 4th ever mention about madara was when naruto went into the eight tails and he told naruto that a man with a mask behind the tree was madara controling the fox. that was the only in naruto that the 4th and madara was in the same story. other i can conclude that they never met till the day the fox attack the leaf village

seriously i thought that in the manga it said that otachi was the first to use or unlock susanoo. because thats the only way that makes sense to me. think about it if every most uchia had the mongekuy sharingan. how on earth could the senju clan stood any chance of wininng against those miraculous eyes of the uchia. and besides only the 1st was said to be the only one who could use wood style that time soo how did the rest of the senju clan stood up to those who had susanoo or maybe even the amaretsu

the 1st did have a darkness genjutsu in the manga. That could have cut off the sharingans ability for genjutsu. What i wanna is why didn't Madara do what he did to Danzo's root fighter's (fu and Torune) to the 1st.

could you tell me in which chapter that stated the fact that the 1st had such gen jutsu at his disposal. oh and madara but a coward to run from such honorable battle as a great ninja that is known to almost or maybe everywhere.

 

[brianS]

wait are u saying that the 4th fought madara in the past could u inform me when , how and where the fight took place. and how come madara said he hid into the shadows and UCHIA ITACHI was the 1st person to discover that he was still alive and asked him for his help to kill the uchia clan. look up back when madara was telling saskue the truth of itachi and u will see wat im talking about. because it is the fisrt im hearing that the 4th fought madara. the only time the 4th ever mention about madara was when naruto went into the eight tails and he told naruto that a man with a mask behind the tree was madara controling the fox. that was the only in naruto that the 4th and madara was in the same story. other i can conclude that they never met till the day the fox attack the leaf village

you see, you still have a ways to go in terms of catching up on your naruto facts

 

[psukkar]

Yes, this is an interesting battle and a DETAILED flashback is required. I think a movie on this these two clans would BE PREFECT.

There are few things I noticed about this battle and the pages leading up to the page we saw (Madara x Fox) vs First.

The thing I wondered about this fight is why did Madara even summon/call the fox to the fight?

Based from the flashback pages it was made as through Madara and the First were near equals and they have fought many times. So if infact they were rivals in terms of power that would explain why they survived the many encounters they fought.

So I reenacted how I think the fight went down.

Madara as a last ditch effort fought the First with the EMS for the first time.

He somehow was losing the fight most likely due to the First's stamina as he inherited his body's perfection from the So6P and his VAST knowledge of techniques(the Third actually talks a little about this at very start of the manga).

So to try and win the fight even after the element of surprise (EMS) failed he called/summoned the Fox. Now I reakon at this point it was a fight between the First and the nine tails as Madara surely would have been exhausted by then. So the most amazing thing you could say from this fight is HOW THE **** did the First subdue the FOX. Now I know a lot of you are gonna say "but the First could control the bujj" but Madara already was manipulating the Fox to do his biding so the First would have had to get to Madara, stop him then suppress the Fox.

So to sum up the fight, it when like this;

1) Madara (EMS) vs Frist ... Madara then says oh shit hes still wining.
2) Madara controls Fox vs First .... The first SOMEHOW subdues the fox.
3) The First knocks out madara to stop the link between Madara and the fox.
4) The First surpess the Fox, Fox leaves.
5) The First somehow with his bullshit stamina lands the final blows to an already finished Madara.
6) The First thinks Madara is dead and SOMEHOW more bullshit occurs and Madara survived the WHOLE ORDEAL.

Here's another scary notion the Fox had hes FULL powers back then, this was before the Forth split up his chakra and we all know what 6-8 tails can do from Naruto, pretty astounding stuff.

 

[Chacha]

It would definitely help should they make a gaiden or ova (whatever it's called) on how the two fought.

My assumption: I guess Hashirama may have more chakra levels then Madara, exhausting Madara until Hashirama made the coup de grace move that ought to kill Madara (yet didn't). Alongside, Hashirama may able to suppress the kyuubi using his Mokuton tech, perhaps similar yet tons more powerful than what Yamato did to Naruto when he's gone amok with his four-tails (perhaps this was witnessed during Oro vs Naruto small fight in some bridge).

Hmmm...I don't have evidence to back this up, but, it might be possible that Hashirama used the other 8 bijuus alongside him during the epic battle? No?

 

[psukkar]

It would definitely help should they make a gaiden or ova (whatever it's called) on how the two fought.

My assumption: I guess Hashirama may have more chakra levels then Madara, exhausting Madara until Hashirama made the coup de grace move that ought to kill Madara (yet didn't). Alongside, Hashirama may able to suppress the kyuubi using his Mokuton tech, perhaps similar yet tons more powerful than what Yamato did to Naruto when he's gone amok with his four-tails (perhaps this was witnessed during Oro vs Naruto small fight in some bridge).

Hmmm...I don't have evidence to back this up, but, it might be possible that Hashirama used the other 8 bijuus alongside him during the epic battle? No?

Yea true we don't know shit, but I reakon the first didn't use the other beast as this would have taken away from the first's stature as a shinobi.

 

[The Pervy Sage]

There should be like a spoof of this lol


the first hokage goes oooo a penny then when madara looks, then the first hokage kicks him in the nuts lmao




But serious, theres got to be more to his wood style jutsu or his control of the tailed beasts xd

 

[Amantius]

I THINK THAT HASHIRAMA DEFEATED MADARA DUE TO THE FACT THROUGH OUT THE SERIES HISTORY IT STATES THAT THEY WOULD BE CONSTANTLY BATTLING EACH OTHER AND HE WOULD OF UNDERSTOOD HOW THE MS WORKED THEREFORE KNOWING ITS WEAKPOINTS ALONG WITH HIS CLANS KNOWLEDGE OF JUTSU( The Senju clan gained their fame in the era before the founding of the hidden villages. Where other clans focused on mastering one particular skill, the Senju were masters in all skills, from ninjutsu, to taijutsu, to genjutsu. Because of this, they were feared as "the clan with a thousand skills" (「千の手を持つ一族」, "sen no te o motsu ichizoku"), which gave them their name Senju (千手, "a thousand skills", "a thousand hands").ALONG WITH HIS MAD WOOD RELEASE JUTSU IT SEEMS HE HAD GOOD CONTROL OF NATURE CHAKRA COMPARED TO MS AND THE EMS ALL THE TECHNIQUES ARE MORE RELATED TO A DARKER POWER AND RAW CHAKRA ,WHERE AS HASHIRAMA CHAKRA CAME FROM NATURE AND WHO KNOWS DID HE HAVE THE OTHER TAILED BEASTS FIGHTING THE 9 TAILS? WHICH ALSO COULD OF SWAYED THE BATTLE AGAINST MADARA COS THE TAILED BEASTS COULD ALSO HOLD THE SECRET TO DEFEATING THE 9TAILS... >>> THATS JUST MY OPINION

>.> i think the reason why the first hokage defead Madara, is because Bush was to help Madara in war but just like in Family guy he showed up when the war was over =( poor guy.

 

[Chacha]

Yea true we don't know shit, but I reakon the first didn't use the other beast as this would have taken away from the first's stature as a shinobi.

Hmmm... mind to share the resource (link)? Thx!