[Discussion] How did the 1st Hokage "kill" Uchiha Madara?

psukkar

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Hmmm... mind to share the resource (link)? Thx!

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Surely when Madara was talking about this fight and about the first's abilities he would have mentioned he used multiple beasts against him. There's no reason for Madara to hold back on the truth like that it would only make him look A LOT weaker compared to the First. The whole reason he wanted to go against the leaf village was to prove to the world the Uchiha were equals with the Senju(As the First was chosen to be Hokage) and by lying like that it would stand against his principles and beliefs back then.

So basically he could have just have easily said the First used multiple tailed beasts and no one would know the truth anyway. But he didn't.
 
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Chacha

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Surely when Madara was talking about this fight and about the first's abilities he would have mentioned he used multiple beasts against him. There's no reason for Madara to hold back on the truth like it would only make him look weaker.

So basically he could have just have easily said the first used multiple beasts and no one would now the truth anyway. But he didn't.

Hmmm... that'd be the scene when he's telling things to Sasuke right? Okay, I think I got the impression of what you mean. thx!
 

StealthShinobi

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there has to be some sort of weak point that the 1st exploited. The 1st only had one unique ability which was the ability to control wood. It doesn't seem like that unique ability would be enough to take down EMS, let alone Madara who is supposed to be the strongest uchiha.

So how do you guys think the 1st beat Madara?

Hmmm...I don't have evidence to back this up, but, it might be possible that Hashirama used the other 8 bijuus alongside him during the epic battle? No?

well even madara said that the 1st was the strongest shinobi back then so that means that he was already stronger than madara and he didint have to expoil any weak point that the EMS might have or use a bijuu....ow and i think that ur underestimating his wood style cuz who knows it might even be strong enough to penetrate ameterasu and it might have came with special chackra and other things like that dont forget that the uchihas arent the only people with special powers the senju are decendant from the sage of the 6 paths just like the uchihas so they probably have powers equal or maby even greater than the uchihas.
 

Chacha

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well even madara said that the 1st was the strongest shinobi back then so that means that he was already stronger than madara and he didint have to expoil any weak point that the EMS might have or use a bijuu....ow and i think that ur underestimating his wood style cuz who knows it might even be strong enough to penetrate ameterasu and it might have came with special chackra and other things like that dont forget that the uchihas arent the only people with special powers the senju are decendant from the sage of the 6 paths just like the uchihas so they probably have powers equal or maby even greater than the uchihas.

Well, not that I'm underestimating Harashima's mokuton techs, but everybody's clueless on how really strong it was. I'm just theorizing that he might have used other bijuus alongside. Well, he might have really NOT. But, I don't think there's something wrong if Harashima did use some tailed beasts. Who knows if his Mokuton techs helped him to control the beasts?

Only a gaiden or an ova will prove its verity.
 

StealthShinobi

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Well, not that I'm underestimating Harashima's mokuton techs, but everybody's clueless on how really strong it was. I'm just theorizing that he might have used other bijuus alongside. Well, he might have really NOT. But, I don't think there's something wrong if Harashima did use some tailed beasts. Who knows if his Mokuton techs helped him to control the beasts?

Only a gaiden or an ova will prove its verity.

true but i dont think that a man like harashima would use the the evil bijuus as tools cause he's too noble to do that
 

Chacha

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true but i dont think that a man like harashima would use the the evil bijuus as tools cause he's too noble to do that

To be honest, I can't really say much about Harashima, whether if he's really corrupt or noble as the man for me is still a mystery. Naruto history is one of the vaguest things for me. I hope if the anime will produce some filler arcs, gaidens will suit best to make things and characters clearer, same as with the manga. :eek:
 

ranks33

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ya I know that that's been said in the manga, but I think they're more even. Especially with naruto being the most unpredictable ninja. For some reason I think that Minato would still beat naruto in a fight though. I don't know



Hashirama only fought the MS once though. When madara was telling sasuke his story he said that after his brother gave his eyes to madara, then uchiha signed a truce with the senju. That stopped the fighting, but madara wanted them to fight so he abandoned the clan and then Hashirama and Madara fought resulting in Madara's "death." So Hashirama only saw MS once, and beat it.

Still the only problem I have is that, I'm not sure whether Madara had tsukuyomi, amaterasu, and susano'o back then or still does, but those are the only MS techs we really know about. Now I'm just kinda assuming that Madara would have those when he fought hashirama, and I just don't understand how he would avoided tsukuyomi which is probably the worst genjutsu. he might be able to avoid amaterasu but it would be difficult. and susano'o makes him invurnerable. It just doesn't add up. What I see happening is susano'o being activated so madara can't be hurt. Then he just uses tsukuyomi a few times and hashirama's head implodes on itself. I mean one tsukuyomi was bad on kakashi and itachi made sure not to kill kakashi. but a serious tsukuyomi a few times, probably once and it's impossible to stand up again. especially from madara.

LOL
you have some good points
 

Avani 🥉

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Yes, this is an interesting battle and a DETAILED flashback is required. I think a movie on this these two clans would BE PREFECT.

There are few things I noticed about this battle and the pages leading up to the page we saw (Madara x Fox) vs First.

The thing I wondered about this fight is why did Madara even summon/call the fox to the fight?

Based from the flashback pages it was made as through Madara and the First were near equals and they have fought many times. So if infact they were rivals in terms of power that would explain why they survived the many encounters they fought.

So I reenacted how I think the fight went down.

Madara as a last ditch effort fought the First with the EMS for the first time.

He somehow was losing the fight most likely due to the First's stamina as he inherited his body's perfection from the So6P and his VAST knowledge of techniques(the Third actually talks a little about this at very start of the manga).

So to try and win the fight even after the element of surprise (EMS) failed he called/summoned the Fox. Now I reakon at this point it was a fight between the First and the nine tails as Madara surely would have been exhausted by then. So the most amazing thing you could say from this fight is HOW THE **** did the First subdue the FOX. Now I know a lot of you are gonna say "but the First could control the bujj" but Madara already was manipulating the Fox to do his biding so the First would have had to get to Madara, stop him then suppress the Fox.

So to sum up the fight, it when like this;

1) Madara (EMS) vs Frist ... Madara then says oh shit hes still wining.
2) Madara controls Fox vs First .... The first SOMEHOW subdues the fox.
3) The First knocks out madara to stop the link between Madara and the fox.
4) The First surpess the Fox, Fox leaves.
5) The First somehow with his bullshit stamina lands the final blows to an already finished Madara.
6) The First thinks Madara is dead and SOMEHOW more bullshit occurs and Madara survived the WHOLE ORDEAL.

Here's another scary notion the Fox had hes FULL powers back then, this was before the Forth split up his chakra and we all know what 6-8 tails can do from Naruto, pretty astounding stuff.

It was stated in the manga more than once that Hashirama could control all tail beasts like his pets. He Probably had them all since it was said that he actually gave them away as a peace token to other villages. Madara could have summon fox but Hashirama could control it like his own pet any way. Madara would fail in such a case. Simple as that.

secondly First DNA and locket had something to do with it as well as his wood jutsu..
 
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Ariow

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The first has all the abillities youve seen the main white zetsu use so far so it would make him very difficult to even get near. Did you see him plant those spores on Sasuke no one did and it drained a bunch of chakra from kages giving it to Sasuke also Yamato and zetsu can basically become one with wood watch them move. plus all the other strange things we see white zetsu do like make that perfect clone of Kisame. The first is probably able to create a huge forest more than what we saw when he fought the third and hide among it and you would be unable to sense him at all and attack at every angle from any spot in that forest.
 

siyo

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Madara only seems overpowered because we have witnessed what his different doujutsu can do through the manga and the fact that he could control all the tails.
That can not be said for the first.The only thing we know about him is the stuff written in naruto history, and what we have been told through characters like madara,who as you said once faced him.So what do we know about him? We know that madara said he was his ultimate rival,and his clan was used to fighting the uchiha.Already here we know the two clans could counter each others moves so the ms/ems is not as overpowered as it seems(at least against the senju clan).Since the first and madara were the two top contenders they fought it out to find out who the truly strongest in the world was.And who won the battle? Harishima...Because of this it is pointless to rewrite history, simply because we have seen some of the stuff madara can do.

A perfect example is the second hokage.All we knew about him was that he was an incredible water manipulator/user, and the fact that he knew some genjutsu.Suddenly we find out that he is behind some of the strongest jutsus in the world.Who would have thought he was behind, The Summoning: Impure World Resurrection or that he
had a similar space/time tech to the fourth hokage???? i remember people calling him weak simply because we hadn't seen evidence of his powers.
Same with harishima,we know he got a wood technique, which he somehow uses to surpress the different tails,he might have been able to control them,but we don`t know that all i know is we will find out.


btw it is entirely subjective which hokage was the best in their prime.And kishi agree s with that since we have heard different answers through the manga.I know iruka said the third was the strongest,madara settled with the first, and kakashi(i think?) mentioned the fourth.See the pattern?
 

Rihari

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well madara said that he wasnt looking for victory in tht fight he was looking for his power ffor the future and plus i dont think madara was at the level he is now tbh i dont even think he had spce time techniques at tht level
 

Whiteknight

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The first hokage had the wood-style, which we've seen Yamato use several times, we've seen the first use in the fight against the third, and we've seen Danzo use briefly. There's more to that style than we seem to know, because Madara's plans with Zetsu seem to rely on wood style too.

We've seen the wood style be used as a very strong defense mechanism, creating living trees to get in the way of other attacks. Danzo was able to use his wood release to block an arrow fired by Sasuke's Susanoo, and Yamato used it several times throughout the manga to create defensive shields. We've also seen the wood release be used to trap enemies, like when the first used it to trap the third, or when Yamato used it to wrap up Madara. We also know that the wood release gave Hashirama the unparalleled ability to control tailed beasts. His ability to suppress and control tailed beasts would have been just as strong or stronger than Madara's ability.

We also know that Danzo used Hashirama's cells to boost his own chakra. This suggests that Hashirama either naturally had high chakra, or that his wood-release raised his chakra some how.

Madara came to the fight with the 9-tailed fox, but we know that Hashirama was in control of several tailed beasts himself, although I don't think we know exactly how many he had at the time of the battle. It's likely that he had at least one or two under his control, and was probably able to make use of their chakra. After Hashirama suppressed the Fox, He would have had some tailed-beast chakra himself, and Madara would not have had any. If he had at least one tailed beast under his control at the time, he would have been immune to genjutsu and would have had lots of excess chakra, more than Madara had.

We know that Madara had EMS. He would have had Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi, and Susanoo. He probably also had his space/time jutsu as well (we don't know for certain when he got it). He would not have had access to Izanagi yet. We know that EMS techniques use a lot of chakra. Even in the EMS, he wouldn't have gone blind but he couldn't have been spamming techniques like how Sasuke does. He would have to conserve, because we know Hashirama would have had high stamina, lots of chakra including some from tailed beasts, and a powerful ability to defend with wood style.

We know that amaterasu can be dodged. It can also be blocked if the user doesn't have a clear line of sight. Plus, it uses a large amount of chakra. Tsukuyomi would have been worthless, because Hashirama would be immune. Susanoo is one technique that we don't know any weaknesses for yet, but we have seen powerful attacks be able to pierce it (Raikage broke one of the ribs with a punch. Danzo pierced it with a wind bullet. Mizukage melted it with acid). If Hashirama had other powerful ranged techniques and enough chakra he could have done the same thing without falling into range of the Susanoo's attacks. We also don't know what kind of weapon Madara's Susanoo had: Did he have a sword and shield like Itachi, or did he have a ranged attack like Sasuke?

In any case, it's not unthinkable. If Hashirama had enough chakra he could definitely have won the battle. I think EMS is not as powerful as we think it is. The only person we've seen have it is Madara, and he's never used it besides his space/time jutsu. Sasuke has EMS now but we've never seen him use it and we don't know how much chakra he has. I suspect EMS is not as powerful as we think.
 

SasukeMangekyo5

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Well I think Madara wasn't that powerful that it is now, Senju really damaged a lot Madara, which is said by Madara at this page.
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So I think that he didn't have the strength he has now, Senju Hashirama abilities seem to be really good, Danzo took Senju's DNA, Madara took his DNA and Yamato took his DNA also anyway Senju was more powerful, Madara used Nine-tailed fox using a lot of chakra but somehow he lost control of Biju (according to the third Naruto databook, the Nine-Tailed Demon Fox is the only one who knows the truth about the Uchiha clan and about Naruto, which means that it may be a weakness that caused Madara not to control it. However, it appears that it has no intention of telling what it knows) and with no chakra left, he lost!
That's what I think.

Some of the information were taken from narutopedia
 
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WoWvsNaruto

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I didn't think Madara was controlling the kyuubi during the fight with the 1st? I thought that was only when he attacked konoha and the 4th sealed it into naruto.



Didn't he control them with his mokuton and not through genjutsu? Like when yamato suppressed the kyuubi during naruto's wind training.



That makes sense... I didn't remember yamato saying that about hashirama. The only other thing is that the 4th is supposed to be the strongest shinobi that konoha produced. Probably one of the strongest ever, which means that he would be stronger than the 1st. And since the 4th couldn't beat madara, then that makes me a little confused on how the 1st managed to beat madara in the first place. Although the 4th had the kyuubi to deal with as well, but Minato said that Madara saw through everyone of his moves which means Minato was pretty much beat either way.

minato in anyway didnt loose to madara. minato was injured him and took control of the kyuubi from him.. though he was still "injured" from the 1st battle, again madara was defeated in battle. but his purpose for being there was completed in both senarios
 

pemayozer

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as withthis guys signature...
i thinkthe firs just tied up the tailed beast with his moktun which i think was string enought to hold up against the bijuu's
so he was just putting hen on leaseh and forcing hem to behave.

after that its jst he and madara again..
i think the sheer volume ofhis mukton just overwelmed susanno and any other technique madara threw at him...

madara survived and realized that the 1st power was te real deal and started running after it,collecting DNA form he battel remains
 
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