[Discussion] How did the 1st Hokage "kill" Uchiha Madara?

[The Shadow Puppeteer]

Alright so I'm under the assumption that everyone else is under the assumption that EMS=pretty much absolute pwnage. It's the ultimate sharingan. No more going blind when someone uses their mangekyou, and the only limit is their chakra, which should be awfully high since they obtained EMS. Now when I think about the EMS it seems awfully overpowered with ametarasu, tsukuyomi, and susano'o. Seems pretty much invincible.

Now to the title of this forum... How did the 1st Hokage "kill" Uchiha Madara? Madara had EMS when they fought and the 1st was still able to take him down. Granted Madara fooled him in the end, but still for madara to be beaten down like that. I think EMS isn't all it's made up to be... there has to be some sort of weak point that the 1st exploited. The 1st only had one unique ability which was the ability to control wood. It doesn't seem like that unique ability would be enough to take down EMS, let alone Madara who is supposed to be the strongest uchiha.

So how do you guys think the 1st beat Madara?

 

[icci20]

I Think that madara used up a bunch of his chakra controlling the Kyuubi during the fight, and the 1st didn't use as much of his chakra using his wood release to neutralize the kyuubi, leaving madara low on chakra while the 1st still had a decent amount...

at least thats what i am thinking in my head...the truth is we won't know until we are shown in a gaiden or flashback...

we also don't know if madara has Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi, or Susanoo...he has never shown anything that he does...but i could be wrong about this...

 

[tyce]

I think the 1st's genjutsu was even better than sharingans... I mean, he could use it to control ALL the tailed beasts... so maybe he could resist or see through Tsukiyomi

 

[RokuNR]

We don't yet know the extent of Wood Style or the 1st's abilities (which were said to be incredibly vast). Also, we've seen Yamato with his cool wood jutsu, but he himself stated that his skill in Mokuton was absolutely nothing compared to the 1st's. O_O

So, until we learn more about Hashirama, we can't really conclude that EMS is weaker than its said to be.

 

[The Shadow Puppeteer]

I Think that madara used up a bunch of his chakra controlling the Kyuubi during the fight, and the 1st didn't use as much of his chakra using his wood release to neutralize the kyuubi, leaving madara low on chakra while the 1st still had a decent amount...

at least thats what i am thinking in my head...the truth is we won't know until we are shown in a gaiden or flashback...

we also don't know if madara has Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi, or Susanoo...he has never shown anything that he does...but i could be wrong about this...

I didn't think Madara was controlling the kyuubi during the fight with the 1st? I thought that was only when he attacked konoha and the 4th sealed it into naruto.

I think the 1st's genjutsu was even better than sharingans... I mean, he could use it to control ALL the tailed beasts... so maybe he could resist or see through Tsukiyomi

Didn't he control them with his mokuton and not through genjutsu? Like when yamato suppressed the kyuubi during naruto's wind training.

We don't yet know the extent of Wood Style or the 1st's abilities (which were said to be incredibly vast). Also, we've seen Yamato with his cool wood jutsu, but he himself stated that his skill in Mokuton was absolutely nothing compared to the 1st's. O_O

So, until we learn more about Hashirama, we can't really conclude that EMS is weaker than its said to be.

That makes sense... I didn't remember yamato saying that about hashirama. The only other thing is that the 4th is supposed to be the strongest shinobi that konoha produced. Probably one of the strongest ever, which means that he would be stronger than the 1st. And since the 4th couldn't beat madara, then that makes me a little confused on how the 1st managed to beat madara in the first place. Although the 4th had the kyuubi to deal with as well, but Minato said that Madara saw through everyone of his moves which means Minato was pretty much beat either way.

 

[a thousand years of death]

Alright so I'm under the assumption that everyone else is under the assumption that EMS=pretty much absolute pwnage. It's the ultimate sharingan. No more going blind when someone uses their mangekyou, and the only limit is their chakra, which should be awfully high since they obtained EMS. Now when I think about the EMS it seems awfully overpowered with ametarasu, tsukuyomi, and susano'o. Seems pretty much invincible.

Now to the title of this forum... How did the 1st Hokage "kill" Uchiha Madara? Madara had EMS when they fought and the 1st was still able to take him down. Granted Madara fooled him in the end, but still for madara to be beaten down like that. I think EMS isn't all it's made up to be... there has to be some sort of weak point that the 1st exploited. The 1st only had one unique ability which was the ability to control wood. It doesn't seem like that unique ability would be enough to take down EMS, let alone Madara who is supposed to be the strongest uchiha.

So how do you guys think the 1st beat Madara?

through the power of song. madara let his guard down and can no longer hear very well

seriously, i have no idea. the first didnt show that much strength against the third, so how can he fight madara with this overpowered jutsu?
would be a great fight to watch.

all i can guess is that the first has more chakra and thinks during his fights.
im basing this on what madara said to naruto.

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[icci20]

I didn't think Madara was controlling the kyuubi during the fight with the 1st? I thought that was only when he attacked konoha and the 4th sealed it into naruto.

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here is the page in the manga where madara is telling sasuke about his battle with the 1st...he was very obviously controlling the kyuubi during the fight.

 

[brianS]

that will always be a mystery until we see a full flashback from madara himself

 

[niblack89]

That makes sense... I didn't remember yamato saying that about hashirama. The only other thing is that the 4th is supposed to be the strongest shinobi that konoha produced. Probably one of the strongest ever, which means that he would be stronger than the 1st. And since the 4th couldn't beat madara, then that makes me a little confused on how the 1st managed to beat madara in the first place. Although the 4th had the kyuubi to deal with as well, but Minato said that Madara saw through everyone of his moves which means Minato was pretty much beat either way.

That was a unfair advantage Tobi sicked the kyuubi at him and the leaf the 4th doesn't have any abilities to control the kyuubi or any other tailed beast. But he did further weaken Madara by taking away the kyuubi which would be assumed to be his greatest trump card. Also by weaking him gave his son his greatest power on a larger scale.

 

[The Shadow Puppeteer]

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here is the page in the manga where madara is telling sasuke about his battle with the 1st...he was very obviously controlling the kyuubi during the fight.

Ah, thanks. Forgot about this page. The 1st must have enormous amounts of chakra then. Taking on Madara and the Kyuubi at the same time. Thats pretty insane.

 

[NarutoUzumakiMinato]

that gives me a great idea.........earlier on the kyuubi talked about
how sauske had sinister eyes alot like madara which means he knows alot
about madara.......and the fact that the kyuubi was there when the 1st beat
madara that means he is truely the only one alive that knows how to beat
madara....and now the kyuubi is sealed inside naruto so now the kyuubi
is the one who can tell naruto how to beat madara

 

[yusufms]

that gives me a great idea.........earlier on the kyuubi talked about
how sauske had sinister eyes alot like madara which means he knows alot
about madara.......and the fact that the kyuubi was there when the 1st beat
madara that means he is truely the only one alive that knows how to beat
madara....and now the kyuubi is sealed inside naruto so now the kyuubi
is the one who can tell naruto how to beat madara

i never actually thought about it that way before, nice perspective dude

 

[Revan]

that gives me a great idea.........earlier on the kyuubi talked about
how sauske had sinister eyes alot like madara which means he knows alot
about madara.......and the fact that the kyuubi was there when the 1st beat
madara that means he is truely the only one alive that knows how to beat
madara....and now the kyuubi is sealed inside naruto so now the kyuubi
is the one who can tell naruto how to beat madara

nice thinking. therefore sealing the fox inside naruto makes finally sense. the fox is also the one who could make sasuke turn against madara.

 

[The Shadow Puppeteer]

that gives me a great idea.........earlier on the kyuubi talked about
how sauske had sinister eyes alot like madara which means he knows alot
about madara.......and the fact that the kyuubi was there when the 1st beat
madara that means he is truely the only one alive that knows how to beat
madara....and now the kyuubi is sealed inside naruto so now the kyuubi
is the one who can tell naruto how to beat madara

Thats an amazingly good idea. And naruto could use that as leverage to have the kyuubi work with him. Basically he would say that either you work with me, or madara will take control of you again and seal you in gedo mazo. I think the kyuubi would end up agreeing and telling naruto everything about madara. In fact now that naruto knows madara was behind the kyuubi attack and everything I wonder why he hasn't gone to the kyuubi to ask for intel on him.

 

[Vergil..]

That makes sense... I didn't remember yamato saying that about hashirama. The only other thing is that the 4th is supposed to be the strongest shinobi that konoha produced. Probably one of the strongest ever, which means that he would be stronger than the 1st. And since the 4th couldn't beat madara, then that makes me a little confused on how the 1st managed to beat madara in the first place. Although the 4th had the kyuubi to deal with as well, but Minato said that Madara saw through everyone of his moves which means Minato was pretty much beat either way.

well there are two simple explanations for this:

1- Minato was the strongest shinobi produced by konoha, which was created by hashirama so hashirama wouldn't count when Jiraya said that due to being a shinobi long before the existence of konoha.

2- Madara trained for nearly 60 years since he fought the 1st so he is many times stronger when he found Minato in battle

through the power of song. madara let his guard down and can no longer hear very well

seriously, i have no idea. the first didnt show that much strength against the third, so how can he fight madara with this overpowered jutsu?
would be a great fight to watch.

all i can guess is that the first has more chakra and thinks during his fights.
im basing this on what madara said to naruto.

Spoiler

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the 1st and 2nd that we see fighting the 3rd didnt have the same chakra reserve as when they we're alive and had there own bodies due to being summoned by Oro into those kids bodies.

that gives me a great idea.........earlier on the kyuubi talked about
how sauske had sinister eyes alot like madara which means he knows alot
about madara.......and the fact that the kyuubi was there when the 1st beat
madara that means he is truely the only one alive that knows how to beat
madara....and now the kyuubi is sealed inside naruto so now the kyuubi
is the one who can tell naruto how to beat madara

nice idea.
It would be nice to see this happening

 

[The Pervy Sage]

Hmmm, i just think the 1st hokage would have been amazing with his wood jutsu and others and he was said to be able to control the bijuu, i mean that is something.


I think maybe the reason Madara survived was because of izanagi or maybe he knew zetsu who made a clones like he did with kisame?

 

[niblack89]

Madara is planing on using the rinnegan another eye which tells us that he lost an eye. Sasuke wont be as powerful without Sasanoo, I believe his most powerful attack was taken away. I believe that Izanagi was used to keep him from dieing. It was Madara who said Izanagi differs from person to person.

I think he is using eye after eye to keep his powers going, he wants to mold Sasuke to gain EMS because he will be the second person in uchiaha history to have achieved EMS and it would restore his powers back to what they were

 

[TRANEGUN]

I THINK THAT HASHIRAMA DEFEATED MADARA DUE TO THE FACT THROUGH OUT THE SERIES HISTORY IT STATES THAT THEY WOULD BE CONSTANTLY BATTLING EACH OTHER AND HE WOULD OF UNDERSTOOD HOW THE MS WORKED THEREFORE KNOWING ITS WEAKPOINTS ALONG WITH HIS CLANS KNOWLEDGE OF JUTSU( The Senju clan gained their fame in the era before the founding of the hidden villages. Where other clans focused on mastering one particular skill, the Senju were masters in all skills, from ninjutsu, to taijutsu, to genjutsu. Because of this, they were feared as "the clan with a thousand skills" (「千の手を持つ一族」, "sen no te o motsu ichizoku"), which gave them their name Senju (千手, "a thousand skills", "a thousand hands").ALONG WITH HIS MAD WOOD RELEASE JUTSU IT SEEMS HE HAD GOOD CONTROL OF NATURE CHAKRA COMPARED TO MS AND THE EMS ALL THE TECHNIQUES ARE MORE RELATED TO A DARKER POWER AND RAW CHAKRA ,WHERE AS HASHIRAMA CHAKRA CAME FROM NATURE AND WHO KNOWS DID HE HAVE THE OTHER TAILED BEASTS FIGHTING THE 9 TAILS? WHICH ALSO COULD OF SWAYED THE BATTLE AGAINST MADARA COS THE TAILED BEASTS COULD ALSO HOLD THE SECRET TO DEFEATING THE 9TAILS... >>> THATS JUST MY OPINION

 

[JustMyself]

I'm inclined to agree with TRANEGUN. Hashirama wasn't weak and wood wasn't the only technique he got, that's for sure. There are a lot of different things I can think about how the 1st defeated madara, I can even see him as a stronger shinobi than uchiha madara himself. Nevertheless, only a detailed flashback/gaiden will tell us the truth.

P.S. For me the third hokage is still stronger than the fourth... for me the third is considered weaker just because we only saw him fighting at a very advanced age. (*Raises shield *)

 

[Akаsh]

That makes sense... I didn't remember yamato saying that about hashirama. The only other thing is that the 4th is supposed to be the strongest shinobi that konoha produced. Probably one of the strongest ever, which means that he would be stronger than the 1st. And since the 4th couldn't beat madara, then that makes me a little confused on how the 1st managed to beat madara in the first place. Although the 4th had the kyuubi to deal with as well, but Minato said that Madara saw through everyone of his moves which means Minato was pretty much beat either way.

dude someone already surpassed 4th , his son NARUTO!!!

Even kakashi said !!!:naruto::naruto:


:naruto::naruto: :naruto::naruto: :naruto::naruto: :naruto::naruto: :naruto::naruto: